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Cronanius
26-02-2009, 19:40
Now, I'm WELL aware that the new TK book is just barely visible on the horizon, but I got altogether *too* excited when Avian posted the thread speculating on it's release in late 2009/early 2010; sometimes I wonder if we play the only army that can't really build a [too-]"broken" list.

So, as I don't see any other thread floating around on this topic, I wanted to start a thread *entirely for wishlisting*. Just to get it off your chest.

NONE OF THIS IS TO BE BASED OFF REAL NEWS, AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE ACCEPTED AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN WISHLISTING!

On that note, I'd like to encourage wishlisting of *any*thing for TK, including (but, obviously, not limited to) fluff you'd like to see, fluff you'd like to see changed, new models, plasticized models, changes in models, changes in points, changes in rules, changes in stats, etc etc etc.

Unfortunately, I have to study for a midterm tomorrow, so I'll throw down some really quick stuff that I would like to see in the new book:

1. Either light armor becomes standard on our skelly warriors, OR they drop by 1 pt, OR fear stops sucking epically (maybe it doesn't, but all i ever play are dwarfs, lizardmen, and chaos, so I feel that it's not worth its inherent point cost), OR "Spears of the Asp", ie.: Pikes instead of spears, for extra points, allowing our skeleton warriors to fight in ranks of 3, or 2 on the charge.

2. Our "Heavy" horsemen get the aforementioned "Spears of the Asp" and get renamed "Medium Cavalry", or, a cooler name would be Cataphracti (Cataphractoi). This way they could suck less and be worth their rediculous points cost.

3. Ushabti or carrion get plastic models. I'm not paying $100CAD for a single unit of ushabti. It just won't happen, even after I get out of college. I'm sorry GW, but I'm just too cheap.

4. Tomb Kings riding scorpions.

I couldn't put anything else on the above line, its pure, unbridled awesome may not be diminished by mere words.

4.5. OR A SCORPION CHARIOT!

5. Let Icon Bearers be generals in battles of 1000 pts or less! Cut down our points issues in lower-point battles.

That's all for now... I have some fun fluff for TK I had wanted to write up, but it's gonna have to wait for a while.

[P.S.: Mods: I thought this was the most appropriate forum for this thread, if it isn't, I would appreciate it greatly if you moved it to the correct forum]

Ri-xthoal Lord of Lustira
26-02-2009, 19:57
Now, I'm WELL aware that the new TK book is just barely visible on the horizon, but I got altogether *too* excited when Avian posted the thread speculating on it's release in late 2009/early 2010; sometimes I wonder if we play the only army that can't really build a [too-]"broken" list.

So, as I don't see any other thread floating around on this topic, I wanted to start a thread *entirely for wishlisting*. Just to get it off your chest.

NONE OF THIS IS TO BE BASED OFF REAL NEWS, AND SHOULD NOT EVER BE ACCEPTED AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN WISHLISTING!

On that note, I'd like to encourage wishlisting of *any*thing for TK, including (but, obviously, not limited to) fluff you'd like to see, fluff you'd like to see changed, new models, plasticized models, changes in models, changes in points, changes in rules, changes in stats, etc etc etc.

Unfortunately, I have to study for a midterm tomorrow, so I'll throw down some really quick stuff that I would like to see in the new book:

1. Either light armor becomes standard on our skelly warriors, OR they drop by 1 pt, OR fear stops sucking epically (maybe it doesn't, but all i ever play are dwarfs, lizardmen, and chaos, so I feel that it's not worth its inherent point cost), OR "Spears of the Asp", ie.: Pikes instead of spears, for extra points, allowing our skeleton warriors to fight in ranks of 3, or 2 on the charge.

2. Our "Heavy" horsemen get the aforementioned "Spears of the Asp" and get renamed "Medium Cavalry", or, a cooler name would be Cataphracti (Cataphractoi). This way they could suck less and be worth their rediculous points cost.

3. Ushabti or carrion get plastic models. I'm not paying $100CAD for a single unit of ushabti. It just won't happen, even after I get out of college. I'm sorry GW, but I'm just too cheap.

4. Tomb Kings riding scorpions.

I couldn't put anything else on the above line, its pure, unbridled awesome may not be diminished by mere words.

4.5. OR A SCORPION CHARIOT!

5. Let Icon Bearers be generals in battles of 1000 pts or less! Cut down our points issues in lower-point battles.

That's all for now... I have some fun fluff for TK I had wanted to write up, but it's gonna have to wait for a while.

[P.S.: Mods: I thought this was the most appropriate forum for this thread, if it isn't, I would appreciate it greatly if you moved it to the correct forum]

Well, I got some good news about tomb kings and these are only romours but a real rumour.

Bone Giant will come in plastic and (this is unconfirmed rumour) Nagash comes back as a SC for TK.

That's all.

Godswildcard
26-02-2009, 20:04
I want to see Tomb Guard get some way to 'ASF'. Give us an uber killy unit of doom! Even if it is just to put Khalida in the unit (say, she gives whatever unit she is with ASF, which would be especially nasty w/ Ushabti..)

A dragon or a sphinx (don't they have them in warmaster??!!)
--A character on a dragon or a sphinx!!
---A sphinx with a bolt thrower on his back that can fire a laser beam!! (TAKE THAT lizards!)

Chariot Crewed by Tomb Guard (would'nt even have to change the current models!!)

Chariot Crewed by Ushabti (aren't those in the fluff somewhere?)

and finally--- REVISE OUR CURSES!! 1,000,000 year old undead leet sauce characters should not be outdone by a 300 point dark elf sc!! Not cool!

hmmm....

Jericho
26-02-2009, 20:10
Marching could be good :D

Anyway, sent you a PM Cronanius.

EldarWonderland
26-02-2009, 20:12
I'd like the King/Prince and Priests to be able to summon a sandstorm as an incantation (Remains in play)

King/HLP can place a large blast template, Prince/LP small.

It scatters according to stone thrower rules.

Once positioned it blocks line of sight and, if it touches models, each model suffers a Str3 hit,saves allowed. WS of the unit is reduced to 1 while the storm remains in play. No shooting out of the storm is allowed.

loveless
26-02-2009, 20:15
Nagash comes back as a SC for TK.


...why would the primary enemy of the Tomb Kings come back as a special character for the Tomb Kings? :eyebrows:

Nightsword
26-02-2009, 20:35
That's what I thought Loveless. and why plastic bone giant when surely GW would want to update their skellies with the lovely new dollies right? Skeleton warriors, cavalry and tomb guard should all get redone, no doubt some new special characters will be introduced (a lord on aforementioned sphinx that just so happens to double up as a tomb kinn on sphinx or something like that). King Phar I expect to see too.

And sod kings riding scorpions, why don't you just put the idea together and get the scorpion king! I can't see scorpions as a mount since they are "powered" by liche priests.

Cheaper skellies and swarms to sell more models (oh Nightsword, the cynicism, you don't actually believe that do you? No, didn't think so...), scorpions to get more expensive (i expect, not wish), maybe some human sandmen or something like, desert tribes. I mean, they are in Khemri. Nagash doesn't fit, don't want to see him there thanks, and i think rare sphinx cavalry ridden by ushabti is over the top... DO IT. More incantations perhaps.

PARTYCHICORITA
26-02-2009, 20:41
What i would really like (and hope) to see is the list including noneundead units serving the TK, nomads and such. It would be a cool change with a lot of feeling and with also put the army apart from their VC counter parts.

Godswildcard
26-02-2009, 20:51
...i think rare sphinx cavalry ridden by ushabti is over the top... Do it....

greatest.....idea......ever.....

Edit:

Also, I agree that King Phar should make an appearance with an uber kewl flail of skulls and a pimp chariot. AND PLEASE GW, as a favor to me, do the same thing you do with Lord of the Rings and give me two sculpts- on in chariot and one on foot so that if/when the chariot dies, I can run him on foot without the model looking stupid. (I'm thinking of Settra here!! On foot the guy looks like he's got the cowboy walk down cold!)

decker_cky
26-02-2009, 21:00
Or they could have skeletal dogs....or scarabs....or skeletal dogs with scarabs in their mouths that shoot scarabs when they bark!

Nuada
26-02-2009, 21:06
sphinx cavalry ridden by ushabti is over the top... DO IT.

I like that idea. Maybe some more statue-type creatures, bronze jackels (i've got the image of that big bronze minotaur in my head, from a sinbad film. Don't think a minotaur fits into TK fluff though)

Air Elementals or a genie creature, a bone dragon. Maybe a new creature like a flame salamander; the top half has 6 arms with swords, golden armour, bottom half a snake (not sure if that fits the fluff or not :confused: )

I think a big elaborate throne would work well, something like that guy in the 300 film, carried by loads of minions

fer
26-02-2009, 21:12
based on how great the new stegadon's look, a scorpion on that scale would be far far too awesome for words...

Skywave
26-02-2009, 21:31
-Model wise, I'll kill someone if we don't get new skeletons! That's all I want for the new release, I don't care if everything stay like it is (wich will be better for the wallet anyway).

-Need a way to get at least one unit with poison attack without special character. Magic banner, power of some kind, or just some upgrade to purschase!

-Stand and shoot for undead.

-Heavy armour for character at least.


As for Nagash, it's easy to put him in the book. If he's there it would be an "historical" character, when he was still the priest king of Khemri.

75hastings69
26-02-2009, 21:35
without being rude how is this either news or rumour?

loveless
26-02-2009, 21:40
As for Nagash, it's easy to put him in the book. If he's there it would be an "historical" character, when he was still the priest king of Khemri.

Uh...you mean that relatively short period of time after he killed his brother and before he cast the spell that effectively created the "Tomb Kings"?

Right. And in the next High Elf book, we're going to have Young Malekith as a special "historical" character. Oh, and don't forget Archaon the Priest for the next Empire army book.

:eyebrows:

Mozzamanx
26-02-2009, 21:43
1- New skelingtons. Ours are actually bigger than Empire State troops, which means either Khemri peeps were massive or skin is far too tight these days.

2- Ushabti to get T5, and all Constructs have a 4+ save base. For crying out loud, they're made of stone.

3- Chariot crew changed to 1 Skeleton driver and a Tomb Guard warrior, just for awesome.

4- A mahusive palanquin-type mobile throne for Tomb Kings, probably on a monster base. Think of Xerxes from 300 or Thorgrim.

5- A couple of extra Incantations. The sandstorm idea is ace, though S3 might be a little too hitty. Maybe every unit it hits halves WS and BS or something?

6- Scorpion King as a character. Screw copyright laws, this is unbelievably awesome.

7- I quite liked that our armour only went up to light, kept us unique. Not to mention the fact that too much would kill you in the heat like an unopened can of baked beans in the microwave.

8- Icon Bearers can cast Incantation of Urgency on his own unit, and gets a slight boost in combat potential. These guys are the personal champions, so give them the stats for it.

9- Please don't make them unreasonably overpowered. Slightly overpowered is fine, but make it obvious and everyone will find out.

Grimtuff
26-02-2009, 21:53
without being rude how is this either news or rumour?

I'm wondering this too. :eyebrows: Since when were wishlists allowed?

Cronanius
26-02-2009, 22:10
I'll be honest, I have no idea, Grimtuff; I normally stay away from the rumours forum, it makes me want to wishlist too much... I wrote in my original post that if it's the wrong place to put the thread, then I would appreciate it if a mod would kindly move it.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-02-2009, 22:16
I'd like less reliance on magic to prevent the army getting bogged down when facing armies with lots of anti-magic. I don't think the current system works against every army.

I'd like a defined role for the icon bearer. Coupled with less reliance on magic and various improvements he could become a valuable addition to the army. Only a truly defencive army an currently afford to field one.

I'd like to see some living units integrated into the list. Desert nomads and fanatics that worship the tomb kings as "living" gods. This would differentiate the army from the entirely undead vampire counts forces and relieve some pressure on the need for magic whilst providing some mobility in the movement phase.

There needs to be an assessment of the points costs for basic skeletons and their upgrades.

I think that chariots, which according to the background actually carry minor nobles or are the king's bodyguard, should benefit from the wight rules (killing blow and magic attacks) for one member of the crew.

The liche's magic missile incantation should be altered so that it doesn't directly compete with smiting induced bow fire. I'd prefer to see an anti-armour attack (heat based) as with the lore of metal spells or else an anti-shooting attack (desert winds / sandstorm) that impedes enemy ranged attacks similar to chillwind.

There need to be more numerous interesting ways to protect liches and particularly the hierophant.

Lastly I want to see a roll for horsemen outside of being cheap light chariots or somewhere to hide liches.


This thread needs to be moved to general discussion.

Skywave
26-02-2009, 22:17
Uh...you mean that relatively short period of time after he killed his brother and before he cast the spell that effectively created the "Tomb Kings"?

Right. And in the next High Elf book, we're going to have Young Malekith as a special "historical" character. Oh, and don't forget Archaon the Priest for the next Empire army book.

:eyebrows:

Yup, that short period of about 250 years where he ruled the land and had an army of both living and undead troops :)

Compared to the VC book, Konrad reign didn't lasted 100 years, and young Mannfred did absolutely nothing, but both are special characters, so it isn't hard to consider Nagash in his early life as the king of khemri.

decker_cky
26-02-2009, 22:31
You figure they'll make new skeletons for khemri? If they do, then GW has to replace every plastic kit for the army. I think they're more likely to move forward and make other units plastic, add some fluff that khemrians were giants compared with men from elsewhere (if even that) and leave players to deal with their thick boned regiments.

bootlegbaker
26-02-2009, 22:39
Make Tomb Giants a 1-3 unit!

loveless
26-02-2009, 22:44
Yup, that short period of about 250 years where he ruled the land and had an army of both living and undead troops :)

Compared to the VC book, Konrad reign didn't lasted 100 years, and young Mannfred did absolutely nothing, but both are special characters, so it isn't hard to consider Nagash in his early life as the king of khemri.

But Konrad also operated under Vlad, as did young Mannfred - which is why they're heroes and not lords.
And neither Konrad NOR Mannfred went on to attempt to annihilate their former kingdom after all of the other higher-ups decided that they had crossed the line.
In other words - neither Konrad nor Mannfred became pariahs in Sylvania, nor did they become the sworn enemies of Sylvania (Sylvania referring to the Undead there, and not the humans).

Nagash, meanwhile, became an enemy of Khemri. Much like the Vampires did. It makes no sense for Nagash to be in a Khemri list.

Nightsword
26-02-2009, 23:06
You figure they'll make new skeletons for khemri? If they do, then GW has to replace every plastic kit for the army.

Yup, but to be fair, vampire counts got 4 plastic regiments I believe? Skeleton warriors, skeletal cavalry, tomb guard + 1 more (i don't see chariots being upgraded, quite like the chaos, DE ones haven't been). It's doable surely, they have the dollies from VC, all they have to do is sculpt some shields and some Egyptian/khemrian stylely bitz on.


greatest.....idea......ever.....


I like that idea.

XD I feel like Mat Ward holding the WOTR book :D

Xerxes style palanquin would be awesome, and didn't the persian's have elephants too :angel:

Death Whisper
26-02-2009, 23:17
Heavy armor doesn't necessarily have to be confining and stuff/hot. It could just be thick pieces of metal covering points that you don't want to be cut/stabbed/pierced by the enemy. Greek hoplites wore breastplates and greaves, but were otherwise fairly naked. Heavy armor could still breathe well in the hot sun (and maybe even reflect more light than normal clothing, reducing heat!). Not all heavy armor is the full-plate armor of knights and in the Empire list.

As for Nagash, even though he is an enemy of the Tomb Kings, because of his usurpation of his brother's throne he is a Tomb King himself. Thus making him viable for a Tomb Kings character.

If you consider the recent book as a direction of the fluff, then he could even be used as a "historical" character, as one of the most powerful Liche Priests.

Spiney Norman
26-02-2009, 23:22
...why would the primary enemy of the Tomb Kings come back as a special character for the Tomb Kings? :eyebrows:

Loads of reasons actually

Firstly he was actually King of Khemri for something like 200+ yrs, and was undoubtedly khemri's most famous son.

Not only that but he was supported by several Nehekharan cities, not least Lybaras.

Furthermore in the latter years of his reign, when fighting against Alcadizzar the conqueror his army was almost entirely undead (mainly because pretty much everyone in Khemri was dead by that point).

Read the Nagash novel if you want to know more, its a great book

Now, a little wishlistery of my own...

Heavy armour for Kings and princes, I know the arguments against this, but if they can magic magical heavy armour I see no reason why they can't also make the mundane equivilent. Also allow all mundane weapons (great weapons, flails, spears etc) carried by Kings and Princes to have the tomb blade rule that Tomb Guard have. Alternatively have a Tomb Blade magic weapon which say confers +1 str and killing blow.

Royal Chariot as mount for Kings & Princes, basically a proper heavy chariot, driven by a Tomb Guard (does full amount of impact hits and confers a better save on the riders) that can join units of light chariots, but if it does, they no-longer count as fast cav (similar to Settras chariot rules).

New Plastic skeletons
Plastic Tomb Guard
Revamped cavalry, they clearly need a new kit, but they also need purpose. At the moment heavy cav have no use at all and light cav are really just quick skelly archers, which hardly justifies their points. Perhaps a proper knight unit, maybe like some kind of mounted version of Tomb Guard.

Plastic catapult and scorpion - both of these are so damned hard to assemble they need to become plastic kits.

Priests need to be cheaper, or better - they're just not worth their points at present (given they cost more than a Tomb Prince) and its hard to see how they can be better casters without totally overhauling the entire incantations system, which would be a tragic loss.

I would also like some way of adding a divine element to the TK army by some kind of upgrade based on the gods of Nehekhara. Just from reading the Nagash novel from BL my interest has been really stimulated regarding the Nehekharan pantheon. However given Lizardmen lost spawnings and the Empire book largely ignored every old world god bar sigmar I'm not particularly hopeful, it seems the trend in 7th is to dumb down rather than expand fluffologically.

Skywave
26-02-2009, 23:27
But Konrad also operated under Vlad, as did young Mannfred - which is why they're heroes and not lords.
And neither Konrad NOR Mannfred went on to attempt to annihilate their former kingdom after all of the other higher-ups decided that they had crossed the line.
In other words - neither Konrad nor Mannfred became pariahs in Sylvania, nor did they become the sworn enemies of Sylvania (Sylvania referring to the Undead there, and not the humans).

Nagash, meanwhile, became an enemy of Khemri. Much like the Vampires did. It makes no sense for Nagash to be in a Khemri list.

Even if Konrad and Mannfred where with Vlad, under his command they did nothing and aren't mentioned anywhere. Only when they came to power did we heard about them. That didn't stop GW to make them "hero" from the time they where with Vlad, to get the whole "historical Von Carstein family".

But I know what you mean. But Nagash destroyed the land after his rule, wich are some 600 years later. During his rule, he was just a king in Khemri that wanted to rule all the land of Nehekhara (looked like a pretty bad king too me though ;) )

In fact I would just be happy to see Nagash somewhere in a book, he've been neglected too much lately :(

loveless
26-02-2009, 23:27
Loads of reasons actually

Firstly he was actually King of Khemri for something like 200+ yrs, and was undoubtedly khemri's most famous son.

Not only that but he was supported by several Nehekharan cities, not least Lybaras.

Furthermore in the latter years of his reign, when fighting against Alcadizzar the conqueror his army was almost entirely undead (mainly because pretty much everyone in Khemri was dead by that point).

Read the Nagash novel if you want to know more, its a great book

I'm going to say this one last time in regards to the primary enemy of Khemri being in the Khemri book as a special character:

No.

Malekith was a famous son of Ulthuan back before the Sundering - renowned for his explorations and called upon to end the pleasure cults popping up all over the continent - he'd even have probably ended up king had he not gone through all that messy assassination business. Does that make him fair game for the High Elf book? No. Why? Because of what he became - the Witch King and primary antagonist of the Asur.

I am now done on this topic.

Cronanius
26-02-2009, 23:55
I'm going to take the time to kill the Nagash topic, by throwing out MOAR wishlisting!

Mirage Armour! I want this quite badly. Probably for Tomb Guard. Basically either a 5 or 6+ Ward Save OR each enemy model in base contact with a model wearing mirage armour loses one stat of some kind (either WS or attacks) up to a minimum of 1. Kinda like vambraces of the sun ;). Maybe that's too powerful, but it would certainly be fun to try and model!

Upgradable Ushabti! I will pay an extra 15 points/model for my ushabti to get killing blow. They have HUGE RITUAL BLADES! And you're telling me those gargantuan monstrosities of killy-killy-death-death couldn't split a puny elf lord into halves? Other fun upgrades could be aforementioned mirage armour, or "Visage of the Gods" (basically, cause terror).

Here's another incantation in the sands theme: Quicksand. Suck a unit under the sand and have them ICFB. THAT would be a crazy tactic to fool around with (you could even do it to opponents' units, maybe! ;))

Bloodknight
27-02-2009, 00:07
One thing that I really want is an option for a tomb king or prince (or just a prince, a King would probably always use a chariot) to ride a horse. I hate that you just cannot get punch into a skeleton cavalry unit because only the weak icon bearer and priests can ride horses and join them.

hardyworld
27-02-2009, 00:40
...why would the primary enemy of the Tomb Kings come back as a special character for the Tomb Kings? :eyebrows:

I thought of it as an Army of Khemri raised by Nagash recently, or a small army of Tomb King that is now under Nagash's control (he IS very powerful in Necromancy). Could be that Nagash is just now coming back into power and hasn't yet fully assembled himself (hence why he wouldn't be too powerful to introduce into the game).

Historical characters are around: Tehenhauin, Nurglitch, Archaon, Vlad Von Carstein, Isabella Von Carstein....there are others. Having a historical version of Nagash isn't out of line either.

Pavic
27-02-2009, 00:51
Yup, but to be fair, vampire counts got 4 plastic regiments I believe? Skeleton warriors, skeletal cavalry, tomb guard + 1 more (i don't see chariots being upgraded, quite like the chaos, DE ones haven't been). It's doable surely, they have the dollies from VC, all they have to do is sculpt some shields and some Egyptian/khemrian stylely bitz on.

Although I think it would be great if GW made new kits for the warriors, cav, and chariots, I just can't imagine they would do so. There is already a rumor floating around that Tomb Guard, Scorpions, and the Skull Catapult are being redone. If this is true, then I can't imagine there will be too many other new models. Also, GW specifically indicated in WD that they want the two undead armies to have different appearing skeletons.

Hellfury
27-02-2009, 00:55
They need to get rid of the skulls off of all their iconography. I am sick of trying to carve off all that redundancy from my TK. Yeah, we get it. They are undead. You dont have to say pizza pie to know that something is a pizza.

Better skellies like what VC got.

A skull catapult that isn't made from bones. The whole country of khemri isnt made from bones. There is wood and stone present, so make a catapult that might be like one that they would use instead of "OMGBBQ!!1!!! Its a catapult!!!!! With bones!!!"

Quite honestly, I would like to slap the person responsible for designing that abortion of creativity that that model represents.

Skywave
27-02-2009, 01:03
I'm going to take the time to kill the Nagash topic, by throwing out MOAR wishlisting!

Mirage Armour! I want this quite badly. Probably for Tomb Guard. Basically either a 5 or 6+ Ward Save OR each enemy model in base contact with a model wearing mirage armour loses one stat of some kind (either WS or attacks) up to a minimum of 1. Kinda like vambraces of the sun ;). Maybe that's too powerful, but it would certainly be fun to try and model!

Upgradable Ushabti! I will pay an extra 15 points/model for my ushabti to get killing blow. They have HUGE RITUAL BLADES! And you're telling me those gargantuan monstrosities of killy-killy-death-death couldn't split a puny elf lord into halves? Other fun upgrades could be aforementioned mirage armour, or "Visage of the Gods" (basically, cause terror).

Here's another incantation in the sands theme: Quicksand. Suck a unit under the sand and have them ICFB. THAT would be a crazy tactic to fool around with (you could even do it to opponents' units, maybe! ;))

There's already a mirage banner for shooty attack, wich looks interesting (though never used it myself). But there's some "ptra" stuff that reflect or emmit light to blind opponent wich might be better suited for hand-to-hand effect. Maybe not as a basic option for units, but maybe a magic banner (like a big mirrorred disc icon thingy) that blind enemy.

And yeah I would like to pimp-out my Ushabti :) To be able to buy upgrade based on the gods would be nice (killing blow, poison, magic resist., etc.)

Quicksand thing would be too awesome to have! I'd like to see something do that! Though if working like ICFB, I'd also hate to send a unit for a sneek attack and loose it with a misfire :p

junx13
27-02-2009, 02:09
And yeah I would like to pimp-out my Ushabti :) To be able to buy upgrade based on the gods would be nice (killing blow, poison, magic resist., etc.)


<Spoiler alert!! >

Yes.. I totally agree... reading the book on Nagash where the Ushabti had different powers based upon the ancient Gods was way cool...

Although I'm not too sure how that would work .. considering that the pact with the Gods was ended by the death of the queen.

Having said that, I think fluff wise the least they could do was to describe the different Gods of the Nehekhara Pantheon. After all, although the pact is broken, I'm sure that the priests still follow the same rituals - rituals that have been around since before the Mortuary Cult (and Nagash) came into being.

That would add a lot to the history of the Tomb Kings in my opinion - After all, fluff wise, the Nagash novel was the first book to show Tomb Kings (i.e. Nehekhara) as a CIVILISATION and CULTURE. And I think it'd be good to follow the Lizardman model of how they fit into the Warhammer World's history etc.

It's also interesting to note that how a lot of the current Tomb Kings army make up is a combination of both Nagash's forces AND the Holy City's forces in that final battle... it's what differentiates the TK from the other races, the fact that they had this long lasting culture based on the old cult and along comes this young upstart who conquers a large part of their world (or tries to), and in turn the cities he conquered have now integrated his "inventions".

dragonelf
27-02-2009, 02:37
Do something about the tomb guard! They are the worst elite infantry in the game bar none. Can't hit anything and when they do they have str4! Either give them great weapons or an extra attack, or something to make them worth taking.

Take out the chariot of fire. Who thought a flammable character would ride in a chariot that was on fire???

Sandstorm and quicksand are excellent ideas for incantations.

In terms of gameplay, the tomb kings really haven't got anything to deal with large monsters. They need a similar monster or something to take them out. I am going to put my vote in for a bone dragon!

Nagash definitely doesnt belong in the book. Whatever he did when he was a lad really doesn't matter, he is known and famous for being the mortal enemy of the tomb kings, enough said.

Do something with the icon bearer, preferably get rid of him and say that a tomb prince can carry the battle standard.

Make heavy horsemen proper heavy cavalry or get rid, does anyone use them???

Other than that, they are perfect!

Gussy
27-02-2009, 03:00
Where is the rumor???

boardbox
27-02-2009, 03:20
I'd like to see:
New skellies, VC ones are great, now just modify the treatment.
Chariots as core, always.
Something to make the cavalry worthwhile. Maybe letting them march or a model that can babysit them akin to a vargulf?
Greater incant capacity. It just feels to me like there's been some creep in casting power.
Living units. I thought I read in the book that while the Tomb Kings are dead, they have living sujects (maybe this solves my cav. issue?).
Cheaper stuff. I drop a lot of army ideas now that ten man boxes cost me 22 bucks, I mean I run VC, I need a ton of skeletons, a ton. 66 bucks for a core plastic unit just seems steep and I like running with two or three of those.

White_13oy
27-02-2009, 03:32
Ok I would love to see the Heriphant get a stat boost in the likes of maybe T4 and a 5++ sv. He is after all the guy who is raising the entire army, He has to be more powerful in someways than all his collegues(SP?) I agree with the TG needing some boost to something. Another idea I had was maybe have the Icon Bearer get a stat boost and he MUST be taken similar to the Brets, But then give us the extra hero slot to compinsate. He IS after all the Tomb Kings greatest champion, despite being so pathetic currently.
Another would be to give Khalida 4 wounds, But thats just me, Seemed weird that a Tomb Queen would have low wounds for being the Lord level.

::On a side note, do you think they will reduce the wounds our TP/TK have like they did with VC? I always like the idea of us having more wounds, but loss of stats for compensation. Also ANYTHING is better than the old chariot, the one made entirely out of bone that had like a ribcage as the wall things.

dooombot
27-02-2009, 03:50
dragons don't fit with Khmeri, I'd rather a construct Sphinx (had one in Warmaster)

SC- Alcadizzar the Conquerer, Last King of Khemri! Nagash is lame-sauce this guy deserves more recognition

SC-Prince Tutankhanut. Would be quite interesting model (anyone remember the conversion for him GW had on their site? very cool)

I'd also like plastic Carrion, though I may be a minority. Def plastic Tomb Guard.

AND they had better keep TK at 4 Wounds or I will be majorily cheezed off

Pantsless
27-02-2009, 04:02
I don't think Nagash would end up making it into the TK book. Odds are, since he is basically the enemy of EVERYONE in the Warhammer world (VC hate him, Enemy of Khemri and the living ect), that he'll become the subject of the next event, akin to the Storm of Chaos.

Think about it: Nagash finds a big stash of warpstone, or his lost body parts... Then proceeds to go wreck face. He's a cheesed off demi-god, and he'll mess you up.

Nightsword
27-02-2009, 07:23
Although I think it would be great if GW made new kits for the warriors, cav, and chariots, I just can't imagine they would do so. There is already a rumor floating around that Tomb Guard, Scorpions, and the Skull Catapult are being redone. If this is true, then I can't imagine there will be too many other new models. Also, GW specifically indicated in WD that they want the two undead armies to have different appearing skeletons.

Hmm, VC got Blood knights too, and a host of character models. I don't know, why would they redo the catapult, I think it's a fine model, and plastic scorpions? Debateable, because would they sell in enough volume (waits for someone to say, i'd buy 15 lololo) to cover the costs?

decker_cky
27-02-2009, 07:44
Both scorpions and SSC are considered some of the hardest models to assemble, and would likely be quite a bit easier in plastic. Were they done in plastic, I'm sure that's a consideration.

Chiron
27-02-2009, 08:15
Some sort of boost to the power of Liche Priests compared to the big bad Lord, perhaps 2 spells at bound level 3+D6?

A reason to take Icon Bearers other than the standard of sneaky unit behind your ass (its the flags true name) Standard of the Sands sounds *great* on paper but really isnt, make it restrict shooting as well as movement for a turn, that'd show gunline armies

If theres no boost to priests then give us more bound items as unit upgrades, more nifty standards, Icon of Rakaph and Icon of Gonzalez - bound spell to cast movement spell, Shield of Ptra changes from the current useless form to a bound item

Cheaper Skellies, at least a 2 point reduction for naked skeletons, even if the +1 point for extra armour is still there

Heavy armour for Tomb Guard, more armour all around tbh

Increase unit size for Heavy Cav, let Princes ride a horse

Replace our magic missile with a ward save spell, very useful for protecting Ushabti and Giants and no bugger uses it

Increase our Skeleton spell to 2d6 models back, TG raising to d6+1 and keep the rest as it is, no new units and d3 models for the rest of the army, also need to stop people trying to wheedle that Cav counts for bog standard skeletons (I've seen it done) for purproses of raising.

Destroyer is perfect, keep as it is, Drop Flail of Skulls by 5 points, give us some more weapons that reduce armour though as that is our real weakness, Setep is good but probably overpriced

snurl
27-02-2009, 08:19
A sphinx or some mummies would be welcome.

ChaosVC
27-02-2009, 08:50
A sphinx or some mummies would be welcome.

Tomb kings are all about bones...skeletor sphinx

VaulSC
27-02-2009, 09:39
Icon Bearer is the no.1 priority for the new TK list. Nothing else needs fixing as badly as him. Terribly underpowered relative to the other characters - he's a waste of a character slot as is. Ask anyone over on the Tomb Kings forum.

SteelTitan
27-02-2009, 09:46
Hmm i love discussions about nagash! Ive been waiting for him for the last 8 years now but still now nagash in sight or any substantial rumours. I sincerely hope he makes his appearance in the VC book because i have an army of them lying around. And I really really really!!! wanna play with nagash! But i do not want a khermi army :P

At the end of the day he is still a necromancer and therefore should be a VC character rather than a khemrian one, even though he was a liche king. But i think he's more a necro than a liche king so i think my reasoning makes sense. Also, i can see the vampires alligning with him once more for their own strategic desires...not so much for khemri liche kings, they are just undead and hate his guts for awakening them.

ghost21
27-02-2009, 10:03
6- Scorpion King as a character. Screw copyright laws, this is unbelievably awesome.

sigh that movie annoys me there was a king scorpion (we don't know his actual name)he does have allot of myth around him i see no reason why he can't appear in some form please no awful human scorpion hybrid tho

Enigmatik1
27-02-2009, 10:18
I'd like to add/see:

1) Allow TKs (not TPs) the ability to purchase an upgrade to also function as a LP (not HLP, save Settra).

2) Replace skeleton light cavalry with living units armed with hand weapon, bow and with a light armor upgrade (no shield option). Additionally, maybe add a mortal caster option. For example, casts spells as a Wizard (either level 1 or 2), may not be General/BSB and can cast spells from the Lores of Life, Death, Fire and Heavens.

3) Make skeleton heavy cavalry "elite." Give TG stat block, no ritual blades but allow spears and flails as options for weapons in addition to HW/S.

4) Add some additional incantations, especially more offensive ones which may require the participation of 2 or more priests to invoke (cooperative spellcasting). I like the sandstorm (penalty to enemy shooting) and quicksand ideas (penalty to enemy movement). I'd also like to add a scarab swarm that does something like 2d6 S2 hits to target unit within 18". Also incantations that grant a conditional ward save for one turn vs. shooting, magic or CC wounds (each a different incantation and a unit cannot benefit from more than one each turn).

5) The ability to have TG carry the Casket of Souls around the battlefield, much like Temple Guard/Slann. While we're talking about TG, either raise WS to 4 or give an additional attack (not both).

6) Light Chariots kept as is and moved to core for all. Heavy chariot option as a special choice that may not form nor join units.

7) Undead constructs (especially the big U's and the BG) made more difficult to wound, except carrion which should become undead constructs.

9) No Nagash!

Scelerat
27-02-2009, 11:19
Not really related to wishlist, but today I got the new WAR bulletin, and well:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/newsletter/2009_02/TK_Ushabti.jpg

*sigh* I wish I could have a TK character...

And, back on topic, fix that damn Icon Bearer. As of now, he's more or less a regular Tomb Guard with the ability to carry a Battle Standard. Either completely remove him and make BSB an option for Tomb Princes, or buff him.
I'd also like to see a big Tomb King monster (Sphinx or whatever), but I kinda like the fact that TKs can't go all dragon-y on your ass.

Gazak Blacktoof
27-02-2009, 11:33
SC- Alcadizzar the Conquerer, Last King of Khemri! Nagash is lame-sauce this guy deserves more recognition

Alcadizaar never became a tomb king. He died killing nagash with the fellblade and, if I recall correctly, his body was found latter, washed up on the shores of a river.

Alcadizaar was still alive when the great summoning took place and it is only through Nagash's corruption of the liche priests' incantations that any of the Nehekharans walk as undead.

Chiron
27-02-2009, 12:18
Not really related to wishlist, but today I got the new WAR bulletin, and well:
http://mythicmktg.fileburst.com/war/us/home/images/newsletter/2009_02/TK_Ushabti.jpg

*sigh* I wish I could have a TK character...

And, back on topic, fix that damn Icon Bearer. As of now, he's more or less a regular Tomb Guard with the ability to carry a Battle Standard. Either completely remove him and make BSB an option for Tomb Princes, or buff him.
I'd also like to see a big Tomb King monster (Sphinx or whatever), but I kinda like the fact that TKs can't go all dragon-y on your ass.

Bugger, just when I think I've no free time this crops up... time to resubscribe :(

Nomad
27-02-2009, 13:30
New Icon Bearer, as so many others have said. Either allow a Tomb Prince to carry the army standard (although this may not fit the fluff), or give the Icon Bearer a significant buff. Better stats would be nice, as possibly would be some incantation ability.

New Screaming Skull Catapult model. I hate the current one, because it doesn't fit in with the rest of the army. The Tomb Kings are basically the army of Khemri, except... more dead. Their weapons are made out of normal materials, their armour is made out of normal materials, even their chariots are made out normal materials which is a huge improvement on the old chariot models. So why are their siege engines made out of bones?

Something needs to be done to make cavalry a more attractive option, because currently they're pretty useless. Preferably a solution that doesn't involve nerfing chariots. As a more radical solution, and one that takes in the fluff stories about living allies, would be to replace the skeleton light cavalry with living fast cavalry.

SteelTitan
27-02-2009, 13:36
Alcadizaar never became a tomb king. He died killing nagash with the fellblade and, if I recall correctly, his body was found latter, washed up on the shores of a river.

Alcadizaar was still alive when the great summoning took place and it is only through Nagash's corruption of the liche priests' incantations that any of the Nehekharans walk as undead.


wasnt it a skaven to plunge the sword into nagash?

Bloodknight
27-02-2009, 13:40
or give the Icon Bearer a significant buff. Better stats would be nice, as possibly would be some incantation ability.

I'd be content with him having the wight king statline instead of being a slightly souped up TG champion.


Something needs to be done to make cavalry a more attractive option, because currently they're pretty useless. Preferably a solution that doesn't involve nerfing chariots.

Prince on a horse so he can join them, and WS3. Main problem solved. Other problems are that they are basically a faster skeleton unit with no punch at all because of the proliferation of WS5 and their WS2, and no survivability bonus over skeletons on foot with HW/S, and a slower healing rate.

Jimjim
27-02-2009, 13:52
1: Drop the Ld test for "The Curse", but make it weaker - gives enemy stat drop or d3 wounds with "only" no AS..

2: Something like Big Uns for Orcs and Goblins, only that for TK it grants Poison attacks.

3: Boost the skellie soldiers, for same point cost or more.. If they were so god damn diciplined in life, they should at least be able to march or stand and shoot.. Even having ws 3.......

4: Undead Construct should give 4+ AS..

5: Give the casket the option to include a given number of extra casket guard, when number exceeds a certain limit, the guard may lift the casket around.. Casket guard should be expensive though..

6: Include Karak Zorn on a map and give us some fluff concerning it......!

Thats my wishlist......

Red_Duke
27-02-2009, 14:05
1. T5 Ushabti, w.4+ AS and ideally M6 as well. They'd almost be worth their extortionate points then. They could even drop the S to 5 and i wouldnt care if they just made the damn things a bit more survivable...

2. Points reduction on skeletons and TG. Skellies especially are just absurdly overcosted atm. Personally i think they should be cheaper than the VC ones, as you can't go spam out a small unit to epic proportions.

3. Bone giant needs to be made decent, or have an almighty points drop. In competetive terms they are complete and utter poo atm compared to the SSC (And almost anything else in the army come to think of it)

4. Scorps could probably do with being another 5-10 points more expensive, and/or possibly not bother with MR1 (no-one ever remembers it anyway!)

5. King definitely needs more mount options - or at least a better chariot that doesnt just fall to bits when it inevitably gets attacked rather than the king himself...

6. Some big gribbly such as sphynx or some manner of spirits would be pretty cool (ala nagash book) - don't think they would fit as mounts, but another rare choice would be good, and the army really needs something other than catapults to deal with big stuff like Daemons, stanks, and treemen etc...

7. Magic needs improving a bit, and they really really need to be able to produce a bit more dispel potential. 6 DD max is just a weeny bit rubbish by todays standards,and given some other armies can produce around 10DD, some extra magic offense would be good. Like the sandstorm idea though! something to cause havoc with fliers and/or restrict movement would be great. Maybe linked to a casket or somesuch even...

8. Icon Bearer is the height of suckage, and needs major improvements. Prince could do with being a bit better too.

9. King needs WS7 damnit! and some decent armour would be nice too...

Bac5665
27-02-2009, 14:55
My idea for redoing the army was to allow normal unit standards to buy one incantation as a bound spell (P3.) The BSB could buy 2, maybe even the same one twice.

I'm not sure that this is balancable, even with high point costs, but it would fix two of our biggest problems: it would make the IB worth taking and it would reduce the reliance on LPs without rendering them useless.

Anyway, its a thought, and it would require a ton of playtesting, but just throwing it out there.

I would love to see TG in chariots, either as a new standard or as a new "heavy chariot" unit. What Khemri needs most is units other than TG that can fight in later rounds of combat. Daemon's and VC make it so important that armies can with without shock tactics, and Khemri rely on such tactics more than any other army right now.

Odin
27-02-2009, 15:07
What i would really like (and hope) to see is the list including noneundead units serving the TK, nomads and such. It would be a cool change with a lot of feeling and with also put the army apart from their VC counter parts.


That really is the wrong way around. It makes sense for VCs to have access to living troops, such as the Sylvanian levy. But the lands of the Tomb Kings have been dead for thousands of years - it makes no sense at all for them to have living troops.

Chiron
27-02-2009, 15:12
That really is the wrong way around. It makes sense for VCs to have access to living troops, such as the Sylvanian levy. But the lands of the Tomb Kings have been dead for thousands of years - it makes no sense at all for them to have living troops.

Except for the bit with the living troops of the kingdom of Zandri(?) being ruled over by the King Tut wannabe

Chiron
27-02-2009, 15:14
wasnt it a skaven to plunge the sword into nagash?

No, they made the blade but handed to the king as he lay in the middle of Nagashs dungeon

Godswildcard
27-02-2009, 15:39
I would kill for an Ushabti character...maybe an actual avatar of a god (a la eldar avatar in 40K) or one imbued with a powerful liche priest.

yes, it is a stretch, but even the trolls got Throgg....

I love Ushabti. By far my favorite models that GW puts out. I want to see more of them. If they made them plastic, I'd be the guy to buy 15 and run them in 3 units of 5. I wants them!!

White_13oy
27-02-2009, 16:03
Bugger, just when I think I've no free time this crops up... time to resubscribe :(

Thats how they got me, I saw the update, and I was already putting in my information again.

What about the SC Sehenesmet, the priest who took control of the giant stone creatures in the tomb abnd fought inside them. That could be the SC with a mount... sort of.

Despoiler
27-02-2009, 16:10
Think about it: Nagash finds a big stash of warpstone, or his lost body parts... Then proceeds to go wreck face. He's a cheesed off demi-god, and he'll mess you up.

I can see it now: The races of the warhammer world need to find Nagash's missing pinkie before he does!
Just so each race can use it for there own devious needs (each detailed over 3 pages of a white dwarf mainly to fill space and to give the unimagative a reason for their army to join in... even if the reasons are abit unfluffy).
It will probably be in an ancient forgotten dwarven cavern- you know because every mystical and highly magical artifact suposedly lost for all time always seems to end up in the home of the only race who doesn't like, or wants anything to do with magic......

then over summer people will play loads of battles so they make sure their army comes top of the global list before gw fixes the result to ensure peace is kept in the grand warhammer timeline.

i can't wait lol........

anyway sorry bout that it got abit rantish at the end.

back to the topic at hand methinks!

going on the warmaster undead army a sphinx would be cool.

some more special characters especialy king phar and the priest who encasted himself in a giant constuct (it would be cool also to give him rules to lead an army of constructs like he did i his fluff).

also giving ushabti different powers would be cool and it could done quite easily. just have them roll on a table before the battle. different weapon options for them would also be cool. im thinking either great weapons or two hand weapons then they can be either slow striking but hitting with an almighty str8 or have 4 str 6 attacks. (i dunno after reading it that seems a bit much). oh and make them plastic.

then of course theres the usual redo of skeletons and horsemen (which would be just two boxes). horseman box which would contain enough parts to either build 5 heavy horsemen or 5 light horsemen. the the skelly box is the same but either skeletons with hw+s/spears+s or 10 skeletons with bows.

plastic bone giant and tomb scorpions.

a new unit like elite chariots drive by tomb guard or like it was said a while back some living allies. (nothing special just some cheap core units that can be used as a screen much like zombies in vc, gnoblars in OK, hounds in chaos and anything weaker than a black ork in O&G).

well i think thats enough from me.

Meraell
27-02-2009, 16:15
I would like to see:

1. Skellies the same as VC.

2. BG with WS 4 and maybe a bit cheaper (20 points).

3. T5 Ushabtis or/and 4+ AS.

4. Boost our magic because I think that now is a bit outdated...

5. TG with option of GW and also plastic box with 10 TG same as GG.

6. Change the IB and HC. I can't think of what changes they could do but do them please...

I'm happy with the rest of the army in general; the other day I was thinking "Do I really want a new book for my TKs?" I like our army playing style, love the SSC and the Scorp, items like the Fire Chariot, BoUL, Icon Rakaph, FoS and some others and I prefer to keep this things as they are at the moment than having a new book with all of our good things changing...
I don't want to experience the same as Lizardmen... Maybe Lizardmen players are happy with their changes but I dont want TKs to be played in a different way.

Sorry for my english guys, I'm spanish and try my best, hope you can understand me.

Best regards.

Rolo Ramone
27-02-2009, 16:21
The sphinx is a must. Come on GW, you can do it...

Mozzamanx
27-02-2009, 16:23
Something that just came to mind, what about the potential for making Nomads as a new unit, which are actually living fast cavalry? 2 birds with one stone! We get useful fast cavalry!

Of course you'd probably need other living units as well, but it has some nice theme behind it.

Sheena Easton
27-02-2009, 16:39
Nothing based on that idiotic "Nagash" BL book and any similarly poorly written follow ups that crap over established fluff for the sake of a "cool" story...

NO scarabs or anything to do with scarabs or that rips off the terrible Mummy / Scorpion King movies.

NO Nagash Special Character - the TK hate him and rebelled against him in life and in death. Possible Arkan but only if they don't use that crappy "Nagash" book as a reference in any way.

Get rid of the Heirophant and make the army less magic reliant - maybe using Mummies in some way, but at least with the Icon Bearer.

Mummies as a unit - or at least as a unit upgrade (either as Champions or as Tomb Guard instead of them being simply blinged up Skeletons...)

Bone Throwers (Both throwers)

CaliforniaGamer
27-02-2009, 16:47
Nothing based on that idiotic "Nagash" BL book and any similarly poorly written follow ups that crap over established fluff for the sake of a "cool" story...

NO scarabs or anything to do with scarabs or that rips off the terrible Mummy / Scorpion King movies.

NO Nagash Special Character - the TK hate him and rebelled against him in life and in death. Possible Arkan but only if they don't use that crappy "Nagash" book as a reference in any way.

Get rid of the Heirophant and make the army less magic reliant - maybe using Mummies in some way, but at least with the Icon Bearer.

Mummies as a unit - or at least as a unit upgrade (either as Champions or as Tomb Guard instead of them being simply blinged up Skeletons...)

Bone Throwers (Both throwers)

Huh, I thought the Nagash book was engaging and interesting. Overall a good read from my end. What exactly did you not like about it?

Chiron
27-02-2009, 17:16
Huh, I thought the Nagash book was engaging and interesting. Overall a good read from my end. What exactly did you not like about it?

It had very little in common with either the established background or ancient egypt?

huitzilopochtli
27-02-2009, 17:50
Undead constructs immune to crumbling! :D

I'm allowed to wish... :)

Hiratu
27-02-2009, 18:15
NO scarabs or anything to do with scarabs or that rips off the terrible Mummy / Scorpion King movies.

QFT.

Although I do enjoy the first Mummy movie. :)

bnf
27-02-2009, 18:23
What i would really like (and hope) to see is the list including noneundead units serving the TK, nomads and such. It would be a cool change with a lot of feeling and with also put the army apart from their VC counter parts.

Seeing how they removed the "Alive!" rule from the VC list, I very much doubt they'll reintroduce a similar concept in the Khemri book.

Sir Charles
27-02-2009, 18:24
QFT.

Although I do enjoy the first Mummy movie. :)But the entire army in its current form was basically done as a rip off of those movies. I mean look at the Ushabiti and tell me they aren't based on the Anubite warriors in the 2nd movie or that cloak that lets a character them turn into a sandstorm and those are just the ones that spring to mind I'm sure there are others.

Sheena Easton
27-02-2009, 18:25
Huh, I thought the Nagash book was engaging and interesting. Overall a good read from my end. What exactly did you not like about it?

Everything. Aside from the fact it is a typical BL novel that craps over established fluff (and indeed previous crappings by BL) from a great height, it is full of ridiculous rip offs of those terrible Mummy movies (they could at least have ripped off the classics instead of these tiresome Hollywood SFX heavy remakes...). Not to mention the fact the implication that inbetween swanning about prattling off the Incantation Of Reaping as if its a greeting Nagash creates Necromancy and wipes out an entire civilisation (only to raise them again to undeath) over some tasty bit of crumpet...

Nerhesi
27-02-2009, 18:43
Just make incantations unstoppable - really.

Sadly, at that point, they'll be considered.. competitive but will still lose out to most VC and Demon armies. DE will definitely have a hard time though.

Enigmatik1
27-02-2009, 19:12
Just make incantations unstoppable - really.

Sadly, at that point, they'll be considered.. competitive but will still lose out to most VC and Demon armies. DE will definitely have a hard time though.

I don't know about making incantations unstoppable, that seems like a bit much to me personally. Maybe make them unstoppable if you roll max for spell strength?

Also a few people have been saying no to a scarab themed incantation/ability, citing reference to the Mummy line of movies. Ironically, I've not seen any of them. Despite being an Egyptology buff, I boycott anything Hollywood has to offer in regard to my intellectual passion based solely off my intense disdain for the movie Stargate.

I also support additional special characters, but my gaming group views SCs as being cheesy and they aren't allowed in our friendly games/tournaments, so they'd do me no good. However, looking at other 6/7 E books so far, it does seem like we get utterly hosed with SCs. Only two Lord choices and no hero choices? Really?

Zoolander
27-02-2009, 19:22
Right. And in the next High Elf book, we're going to have Young Malekith as a special "historical" character. Oh, and don't forget Archaon the Priest for the next Empire army book.

:eyebrows:

I could not say it better myself, thanks Loveless. Nagash as a SC makes about as much sense as a Khorne lord leading a Slannesh units, using Tzeentch weapons and Nurgle armor... wait... :rolleyes: But seriously, I hope they don't do that with Nagash.





---A sphinx with a bolt thrower on his back that can fire a laser beam!! (TAKE THAT lizards!)


Gimme sharks with *******' laser beams! Is that too much to ask? Someone throw me a bone!

Serious though, the big changes that are needed are:

1) Less reliance on magic
2) Better choice of weapons and especially armor for out Kings/Princes
3) Cost adjustments on multiple units
4) More troop choices!

soots
27-02-2009, 22:59
Ok, TK was the biggest disappointment for me since I was a die hard Undead player before the book was split!

1) TK can now march
2) Get rid of the Liche Priest requirement. 2 Compulsory characters every army? thats just silly, the Tomb Kings themselves can raise armies by themselves, or they can use these jars/items etc in the fluff..
3) TK skeletons. 1 point cheaper.
4) Charioteers need an overhaul. Khemri should have the greatest chariots. D6 armor peirce impact hits. Special rule like Brett lance so all chariots in charioteer unit get impact hits on charge. 50pts each.
5) Tomb Guards - They should be WS4 S3 T4, Heavy Armor + shields, 12 Points special. They are *guards*
6) Ushabti. 55pts
7) Bone Giants. Wounds reduced to 5. WS4. Armor 3+. 200pts.
8) Tomb Scorpion. 120pts.
9) Remove light horsemen. Skeletons arent that agile to move fast and shoot riding.
10) Change Heavy horsemen to Skeletal horsemen and give heavy armor option. Make them WS3.
12) Skull Catapults now come with flaming skulls default at no cost, but cannot be effected by incantations.
13) Magic Overhaul. Characters are now magic users. Know all 4 spells and may recast. TP level 1, TK level 2, LP level 2, HP level 4.
s1) Summoning. 4+
s2) Vengeance. D6 S4 hits. 3+ to cast.
s3) Smiting. shooting for bowmen or 1 attack for melee. 3+
s4) Urgency. move/charge. 8+

Nomad
27-02-2009, 23:23
4) Charioteers need an overhaul. Khemri should have the greatest chariots. D6 armor peirce impact hits. Special rule like Brett lance so all chariots in charioteer unit get impact hits on charge. 50pts each.


Core units of chariots (with a King, anyway), each chariot doing d6 armour piercing impact hits? This sounds like a potential gamebreaker.

W0lf
28-02-2009, 00:00
all i hope is that Ushabti are horrific. as in omg they are soooo broken, they are just horrific.

Give them S7 and T5 with 4 wounds for 70 pts a model and ill be happy.

Hiratu
28-02-2009, 00:56
But the entire army in its current form was basically done as a rip off of those movies. I mean look at the Ushabiti and tell me they aren't based on the Anubite warriors in the 2nd movie or that cloak that lets a character them turn into a sandstorm and those are just the ones that spring to mind I'm sure there are others.

Yes, but they are a movie/army based around undead egyptians, there is going to be overlap regardless of intent. I agree the tomb guard/ushabti seem to be heavily influenced from those movies. However, there is only so much that can be done with skeleton people (skeleton people on foot, on horses, in chariots). I don't remember bone giants, skull catapults, casket of souls, or carrion in the movies. I would like to put the tomb scorps in that list, but can't get that terrible image from the end of the second movie out of my head. I really hope gw wasn't thinking of that when they made the tomb scorp. Altough I wouldn't doubt those units being copied from other places, I remember diablo2 having carrion as enemies and the casket has a strong raiders of the lost ark vibe.

jason
28-02-2009, 04:53
I kinda wish that they don't overpower them. I like the fact that everybody isn't playing them.

the_under_empire_clan
28-02-2009, 05:39
I'd like the King/Prince and Priests to be able to summon a sandstorm as an incantation (Remains in play)

King/HLP can place a large blast template, Prince/LP small.

It scatters according to stone thrower rules.

Once positioned it blocks line of sight and, if it touches models, each model suffers a Str3 hit,saves allowed. WS of the unit is reduced to 1 while the storm remains in play. No shooting out of the storm is allowed.

omg yes ,i agree 100% yes that would be soooo sweet, make the spell, i dont know either slow movement of enemys or something but that does sound like a sweet spell

Cypher, the Emperor
28-02-2009, 06:17
-The ability to take bows (IE: Bolt throwers) for Bone Giants.

-Ushabti hero choice.

-An idea my friend had was for a rare or special chariot unit that was ethereal outside of combat, a sort of phantom host type of unit that would be very survivable and such.

-Tomb Guard become the core of the army, leaving "normal" skeletons to be archers and march blockers (much like the renewed focus on Dire Avengers in the new Eldar book)

-Multiple Lores

-Heavy chariots

-LOTS of Tomb Guard options, I'm thinking some kind of "seals" magic chaos mark-like upgrades based on the spells that the pharoh or whoever cast on them when he buried them to protect his tomb, or something. Maybe make them based on different gods, like lizardman spawnings.

Basically, I want them to make the army focus on the cool parts: Tomb Guard, Ushabti, chariots, etc and remove the parts that are left over from the old combined undead army and to make the army very distinctly its own and not just "another" undead army.

If you look at old horror movies and such, you see that there are two main kinds of "undead" there are the endless hordes that die easily and are lead by a single very powerful leader (The Mummy, Evil Dead) and the ones where the undead are very hard to kill (30 days of night, The Terminator).

We already have an army based on the first, why not the second?

Pulsks
28-02-2009, 07:23
I don't play tomb kings, but I love the army.
Maybe the hierophant could also double as a standard bearer, and the castings be Xdice +2. Skeletons cost a bit much, and having a purchasable poison attack would be nice as well.
Maybe +1 A for the Giant, and make the assualt thing last a whole turn, or indefinitely.

Maybe make the casket movable too? And give it a little more defence? 2 more gaurds?

SteelTitan
28-02-2009, 08:32
-An idea my friend had was for a rare or special chariot unit that was ethereal outside of combat, a sort of phantom host type of unit that would be very survivable and such.

I would very much love ethereal to remain a VC undead ability! Lets keep them nice and distinct these two undead armies!


-Tomb Guard become the core of the army, leaving "normal" skeletons to be archers and march blockers (much like the renewed focus on Dire Avengers in the new Eldar book)

uhhhh, well...that depends on the background. For VC, skeletons were the regular soldiers, grave guards/wights undead heroes and kings. It wouldnt make any sense for them to make up the core of your force as there are always more soldiers than heroes. I can imagine the same going for TK.



-Multiple Lores

I think that would rune the original play style of TK. I dont think every army should have access to the lores of magic in the BRB. Also, wouldnt this mean they would have to change the entire incantation system?


-LOTS of Tomb Guard options, I'm thinking some kind of "seals" magic chaos mark-like upgrades based on the spells that the pharoh or whoever cast on them when he buried them to protect his tomb, or something. Maybe make them based on different gods, like lizardman spawnings.

Lizardmen lost their spawnings :eyebrows:


Basically, I want them to make the army focus on the cool parts: Tomb Guard, Ushabti, chariots, etc and remove the parts that are left over from the old combined undead army and to make the army very distinctly its own and not just "another" undead army.

Don't we all? :rolleyes: Every army needs a core of "boring" units. Having regular skeletons doesnt have anything to do with the "old undead army". In every undead army there should be normal skeletons imo. In addition to the more special units like tomb guard.



If you look at old horror movies and such, you see that there are two main kinds of "undead" there are the endless hordes that die easily and are lead by a single very powerful leader (The Mummy, Evil Dead) and the ones where the undead are very hard to kill (30 days of night, The Terminator).

We already have an army based on the first, why not the second?

The terminator has undead in it? Is arny a disquised undead?


No offense to all my argueing but ... its a discussion forum right ;)

White_13oy
28-02-2009, 17:27
I really hope they keep the incantation system the same. I hope we dont go to casting values.

Odieman
28-02-2009, 18:53
Well, I got some good news about tomb kings and these are only romours but a real rumour.

Bone Giant will come in plastic and (this is unconfirmed rumour) Nagash comes back as a SC for TK.

That's all.

The latter seems very unlikely to me, mostly for fluff reasons.

Von Wibble
28-02-2009, 22:00
Hmmm....I'll have a go now!

1) Skeletons get bows and spears, costing 10pts each with light armour and spears. A more elite cmoparison than VC but with max unit size also less forgiving.

2) Ushabti - like the idea of T5 for them. Something to make them unique.

3) Special character - Grand Vizier of Qatar(?) The guy who made the construct army. Being british I'm not certain but I think he had rules made in US white dwarf.

4) Sphinx and bone thrower - both are in Warmaster I think.

5) Greater variety of incantations - maybe have Tomb king and prince as capable as liches at moving troops around and helpnig in combat as current but then liches get other options too. Keeps some reliance on magic but allows an army without liches to function well.

Tbh if that was done and all units and magic items were balanced well I'd be happy. Even that is hoping for a lot though!

soots
01-03-2009, 01:59
Core units of chariots (with a King, anyway), each chariot doing d6 armour piercing impact hits? This sounds like a potential gamebreaker.

As opposed to D6+1 S5 hits every other army is doing?

D3 S4 hits on the charge only is really bad, id rather have 2 saurus which does about the same damage every turn for half the cost. Atm, charioteer units are usually 2 wide, inflicting a laughable 3-4 S4 hits on the charge only. Sorry, but 30pt worth of saurus do this EVERY turn, and they usually come backed with an additional +5 static combat resolution.

Tomb Kings are supposed to be known for their excellent charioteer units. D3 S4 for a 2 horse wide chariot is total crap (unless they make charioteers 1 horse width wide)

Pavic
01-03-2009, 06:36
Hmm, VC got Blood knights too, and a host of character models. I don't know, why would they redo the catapult, I think it's a fine model, and plastic scorpions? Debateable, because would they sell in enough volume (waits for someone to say, i'd buy 15 lololo) to cover the costs?

Well, there is no doubt that VC got an extra amount of love compared to other releases. 5 plastic kits (Skellies, Ghouls, Wolves, Corpse Cart, Grave Guard) and 8 metal kits (Mannfred, Mounted Mannfred, Konradd, Vlad, 2 Vamp characters, Varghulf, Blood Knights) is way more than any other recent release.

Plus, I don't think the scorpions would necessarily be plastic. Kroxigors were remade for LM even though they were redone for the last book, and if the scorpions are difficult to assemble, I could certainly see GW putting out a more assembly friendly metal model.

Also, if GW bought in a mummy unit as suggested or the sphinx (which would be very cool), I think the chance of seeing a redo of the core stuff would be even less likely. The sphinx would probably end up being plastic like the recent Stegadon, and when big plastic kits like this come out, it tends to sap the number of releases an army receives.

Then again, we still have not heard much about Skaven yet, so who knows what the future could hold for the tomb kings.

Charistoph
01-03-2009, 08:32
Here's some things I'd like to see:

- Heirophant rules changed to include ANY Lich Priest (Scorpion included), Vampires got a similar change, why not us?

- Tomb Scorpion made available as a LP/HLP mount like the Carrion Cart for Necromancers.

- 1 or 2 More spell options for Casket of Souls.

- HLP special character that is mounted in a Bone Giant, either reduces all constructs one authority level (i.e. Rare = Special, Special = Troops), or allows Ushabti as Troops with BGs as Special.

- More reliability on "It Came From Below".

Nomad
01-03-2009, 13:58
As opposed to D6+1 S5 hits every other army is doing?

D3 S4 hits on the charge only is really bad, id rather have 2 saurus which does about the same damage every turn for half the cost. Atm, charioteer units are usually 2 wide, inflicting a laughable 3-4 S4 hits on the charge only. Sorry, but 30pt worth of saurus do this EVERY turn, and they usually come backed with an additional +5 static combat resolution.

Tomb Kings are supposed to be known for their excellent charioteer units. D3 S4 for a 2 horse wide chariot is total crap (unless they make charioteers 1 horse width wide)

Yes, even as opposed to other chariots, because the Tomb Kings ones come in units, move as fast cavalry, can be pushed around in the magic phase, cause fear, can be joined by characters in chariots, and only take up a core choice with a King in the army. Tomb Kings are known for their excellent chariot units, but that isn't just due to how big the chariot is: it also takes into account the skill of the charioteers, which is represented by their fast cavalry movement and their deployment in units. I'd probably buff it to D3+1 hits each, and I like the idea of Tomb Guard crewmen, but giving them d6 impact hits each is a buff too far.

selone
01-03-2009, 14:36
I wonder whether Mummies would ever come back, would be nice to see them back :)

Von Wibble
01-03-2009, 15:27
The tomb kings and princes ARE mummies. They are already there.

Maybe in the same vain as light and heavy horsemen, light and heavy chariots.

Light are as is. Lose 1 wound and go down to 32pts maybe. (then their relative hitting power increases). They are core whatever is leading the army.

Heavy get tomb guard crew as suggested. They do not have bows and are not fast cav. They get D3 + 1 impact hits, and cost about 45 per model. (maybe even 40 - compare to a chaos knight). They are special/ core (if tomb king leads army).

It came from below is already reliable -only 1 in 6 chance of gonig wrong and otherwise very useful. I think its perfect as is. If more reliable you'd have to not allow charges when emerging or hugely incerease points costs - though I expect scorpion to go to about 125 anyway. It competes with war hydra for most undersosted.

Spell options for casket - interesting idea. Personally I'd have it working more like Engine of gods - the power is not dispellable. Though you'd have to tone it down somewhat eg don't add 2 to the roll. Other options could be to increase all casting values by 2 and dispel RIP spells (help make up for woeful magic defense), or to allow the liche mounted on it an extra incantation.

Tomb scorp as mount - I'm not seeing it myself. Don't like that one. That said, you used to be able to mount your skaven warlord on a harpy so who knows!

Ward.
01-03-2009, 15:32
I wouldn't mind seeing mummies as a slow moving heavy skirmishers or weak fast moving skirmishers.

Mozzamanx
01-03-2009, 22:06
Having started reading 'Nagash the Sorcerer', I already have tons of ideas to improve the list. For instance, 2 new Incantations!

Incantation of Vigilance- In life, this steeled the minds of soldiers and turned a coward into a bastion. In death, such devotion strengthens the magic binding the King's warriors.
May be cast on a single friendly unit within 6". The unit will suffer half the usual number of wounds from Combat Resolution, rounding down.

Incantation of the Raging Winds- The Priest sumons a ferocious sandstorm, blinding his enemies and concealing his warriors.
May be cast on any unit, friend or foe, within 18". Affected enemies may not march and any shooting is at -1BS. If cast on a friendly unit, then they count as in light cover.


Plus, I love the idea of 2 chariot types.

Light Chariots- D3 impact hits, carries an archer and a driver, Fast Cavalry, 40pts each
Heavy Chariots- D6+1 impact hits, carries 2 Tomb Guard and a driver, 4+ Armour saves. 60pts each

Caine Mangakahia
01-03-2009, 23:33
1. Infantry Units (Inc. B Giants and Ushabti) should be able to march within 12 of General.

2. Skeletons need to be 8 Points, with LA & Shield Spears Included.

3.Icon BEarer needs same stats as wight king.

4. Ushabti & T Scorps should count as having Heavy armour (the're made of bone , rock and metal)

5. Bow and Shield options for the Giant, and +1 attack.

6. Casket should be an upgrade rather than a rare choice. Casket guard should count as champions.

7. Heavy cavalry need to be cheaper and have the word Heavy removed from their title, or make them fast cavalry.

8. Chariots need a 4+ armour save at the very least.

9. Settra needs to cost 1 Lord slot and dump his stupid army restrictions. Or give him some dispel dice.

10. Better magic standards.

Ravenheart
01-03-2009, 23:51
New minis is what I'm mainly looking for:

- Plastic Tomb Guard

- Plastic Skellies

- Plastic Bone Gigant

- Plastic Ushabti


The first two are very likley; going with the look of the new VC skellies.

Charistoph
02-03-2009, 06:01
Maybe in the same vain as light and heavy horsemen, light and heavy chariots.

Light are as is. Lose 1 wound and go down to 32pts maybe. (then their relative hitting power increases). They are core whatever is leading the army.

Heavy get tomb guard crew as suggested. They do not have bows and are not fast cav. They get D3 + 1 impact hits, and cost about 45 per model. (maybe even 40 - compare to a chaos knight). They are special/ core (if tomb king leads army).

I like the options for the Chariots. It would add a lot of strong fluffy power to the list.



It came from below is already reliable -only 1 in 6 chance of gonig wrong and otherwise very useful. I think its perfect as is. If more reliable you'd have to not allow charges when emerging or hugely incerease points costs - though I expect scorpion to go to about 125 anyway. It competes with war hydra for most undersosted.

I've heard complaints about it, that's why I suggested it. I haven't had a chance to use it, though.



Spell options for casket - interesting idea. Personally I'd have it working more like Engine of gods - the power is not dispellable. Though you'd have to tone it down somewhat eg don't add 2 to the roll. Other options could be to increase all casting values by 2 and dispel RIP spells (help make up for woeful magic defense), or to allow the liche mounted on it an extra incantation.

I was thinking a cross between the Dwarf Anvil and Lizard Engine would make it interesting instead of just a "Lost Ark" rip off.



Tomb scorp as mount - I'm not seeing it myself. Don't like that one. That said, you used to be able to mount your skaven warlord on a harpy so who knows!

Tomb Scorpions are technically already a mount for a depowered Liche Priest. Of course, if this did happen, Tomb Scorpions would probably be removed from the Special List, so...

ChaosVC
02-03-2009, 08:36
Do you think the tomb kings should get a helm of commandment? I feel its only fair.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-03-2009, 09:25
I think it was a mistake giving it to vampires.

Not only was the helm a tomb king item but tomb kings don't have casters with high weapon skill. A king or prince is going to more damage by being in a fight than by granting his weapon skill to a unit of skeletons. A vampire can happily sit behind the main combats and use his magical abilities and win the game without even swinging a sword. Ideally your vampire general doesn't even want to be in a fight because if he dies you lose the game, you lose little by putting a tomb king in a fight and having him die.

The helm of commandment wouldn't be the no-brainer item it is for vampires, it would simply allow you to use a king or prince in a different, but not inherently superior, manner.

I suppose its possible it might make it into a tomb king book, orcs and the empire both get access to runefangs, and I think it would make an interesting addition to the list, but I wont hold my breath.

Kornath
02-03-2009, 11:23
I have the ultimate idea guys.

http://heroes.ag.ru/h5/races/academy/jpg/HeroesV_Academy_06_Rakshasa_Raja.jpg

That'd be what you need. Trust me...

Kornath

Cronanius
04-03-2009, 22:53
Well of course! I think a 4-armed burning lion-genie is exactly what we need! :wtf:

all_seeing_eye
05-03-2009, 02:18
Something to put the Vampire magic phase to shame, since they were given the better end of summoning in the magic phase, having some crazy movement abilities (more so then now) would make me happy. That and Ushabti in Chariots as a rare would put a smile on my face too.

Kornath
05-03-2009, 09:44
Well of course! I think a 4-armed burning lion-genie is exactly what we need! :wtf:

It's awesome :D

But of course, you can just get something else if that is what you want.

Some big snake maybe :eyebrows: Or maybe a "bone dragon" a giant made of Obsidan or something, anything could be cool.

And as for the magic phase, I completely agree Tomb Kings need a powerful phase that rivals that of vampire counts.

Hubman
05-03-2009, 11:23
The three ideas I really liked and could see happen were the Mummies as skirmishers, the Bone Thrower and the Sphinx (ridden) monster. Some of the other ideas are a tad too unbalancing.

When renewing an army book, one should always consider what the part is that really needs to be adressed. I think TK suffers in the character department: they require maximised characters in order to be able to help all the units out with their incantations, but the points spent on characters means that less units are purchased. The units themselves generally arenīt powerhouses and as undead they shouldnīt be so all ideas like Ushabti becoming T5 or chariot crew really fall short of the mark. Personally, I think dropping the hierophant rule would be a good start and of course the Icon Bearer requires major attention (perhaps dropping it and letting a Prince become the ABSB). Then reducing skeleton warrior cost to the same as VC.

There is nothing wrong with light and heavy horsemen. They do the roles they are designed to at reasonable cost. Mind you, heavy horsemen are much more durable than most other racesī fast cavalry at the same or lower cost. Chariots are fine too. The only thing wrong with the chariots themselves is that both crew should have spears! In 8th Edition I would like to see a core rule change to the S7 autodestruct rule which in my opinion should be kept only for warmachines and monsters and not characters with greatweapons. Chariots would be good value then (they still are now, but require some tweaks).

Tomb Guard are not bad either. I might see a 1 point reduction for them since they are less able to receive and inflict damage compared to their VC brethren (lack of heavy armour). On the other hand, they do have +2 Leadership on Grave Guard. But if the Hierophant rule is dropped, extra Leadership is pointless anyway.

Ushabti are great as well - does anybody ever leave them at home? Compared to other similar units they could do with a 5 to 10 point reduction, and/or an armour save of 4+, but granting them T5 along with their S6 would be ridiculous. It would grant them too much staying power in an army that already counts staying power as a strength. These type of units are always meant for one of two roles: staying power or brute strength - Ushabti are of the latter.

Nothing wrong with Carrion... Tomb Scorpions are undercosted for their abilities.

The Bone Giant is more problematic: what is really wrong with it? It has a special rule that allows it to gain extra attacks and is definitely more reliable than a normal Giant in combat (although this does mean less capable of killing large targets) and harder to kill with its armour save. Perhaps a point reduction or an extra attack would be in order, but to me this remains the most difficult unit to gauge.

I can see more incantations appearing in the next book. However, since incantations cannot be miscast, their power should not be excessive. Furthermore, TK magic is complementary instead of directly destructive.

Kind regards,

Hubman

Hiratu
05-03-2009, 14:15
I keep seeing two things pop up over and over again:

1) Skeletons should be dropped in price by about 1pt.

2) Tomb Scorps are undercosted and should be increased in points by 10 or more.


Both of which I think are reasonable ideas. However, what I don't want to see happen is:

"Okay, tomb scorpions are now 10pts more than they used to be. Oh, but look, that block of 20 skeletons is now 20pts. cheaper for me to get."

In effect changing nothing as the points saved from the skeles will just go towards the basically standard 2 scorps and we end up with a superficial change.

Mozzamanx
05-03-2009, 15:38
Regarding Icon Bearers, the reason they are terrible is because they compete with Liches, not because of stats or costs. With that in mind, would people support the removal of the 0-1 limit, and removing the Hero slot? In effect, making them a 'free' character like Assasins.

Undead Battle Standards are hardly unfair, and the Kings are bound to have heralds. It would also allow players to work out a balance between the number of units, and how many Icons they need to support them.

For balance's sake, I'd only allow one of them to take a Magic Banner, but it could be quite cool.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2009, 15:49
The free character rules could work, I had also considered making a unit able to take the battle standard in a tomb king force. The option I chose for my own home brew rules was to make him a seriously nasty duelist and be able to protect other models by switching places with them. The first Immortal Guardian (new name for icon bearer) taken is given a free upgarde to be the BSB, to help encourage people to take one.

The rules are untested at the moment because I need to convert a few models to try out some other new features including a mobile casket of souls (I've turned it into an upgrade for tomb guard, though it still takes a rare choice).

Bloodknight
05-03-2009, 16:15
Mind you, heavy horsemen are much more durable than most other racesī fast cavalry at the same or lower cost.

As they should be since they are not fast cavalry. They move like real cavalry, but have no corresponding punch. They are basically just a skeleton unit with a unit cap that has ridiculously long flanks if they do the job they do best - bringing static CR for units that don't have it.


Ushabti are great as well - does anybody ever leave them at home?

Yes, everybody who plays competitively. ;). I haven't seen them in tournament lists for ages, and I understand why. They are squishy and ridiculously slow for monsters and need a LHP to just get anything done.
The light cavalry (which is fast cavalry by the rules) on the other hand lacks most of the advantages of fast cavalry because they are undead.

Ri-xthoal Lord of Lustira
05-03-2009, 16:32
I got some rumours from the legion of the dead FR and this is whatI gotten so far.


Tomb kings will now focus on mummies now instead of mostly skeleton some are plastic while other are metal due to their new special rules and as I was saying there is a debate about Nagash as to if he is coming back or not. More info very soon.

Chaos Undecided
05-03-2009, 16:37
Although I do quite like the Ushabti as they are I also was quite inspired by how they were portrayed in the Nagash Book (although I believe the constructs in the Tomb King army are quite different to the empowered humans of the book) to reinvent them along these lines they could reduce their stature slightly to 2 wound large humanoids (i.e no longer on Ogre sized bases) with strength 5 including their ritual blades but then be able to devote your unit of Ushabti to a certain aspect/god such as asp = poison attacks, hawk = improved Initiative or ASF jackal = faster movement and so forth this way you could give them a command and also allow for a Ushabti style character.

I also think the skeletons of the Tomb Kings should have improved stats over those of Vampire Counts to compensate for them not being able to be summon more during a battle and also to represent them being a standing army rather than a bunch of randomly summoned corpses, this could be either increased weapon skill or initiative and for the Tomb Guard keep their light armour but possibly give them an additional attack.

Having the Sphinx as an indepent monstrous creature rare choice would be quite a nice effect maybe it could empower nearby tombking units, possibly giving them regeneration.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2009, 16:56
I wouldn't want man-sized ushabti or "marked" ushabti, I like the current models and I prefer the look of units with a mix of models.

Having improved characteristics is a good idea but it would reduce the size of the army and remove the "legion" aspect of the army.

I can't say I like the idea of an army of "mummies", embalming was a specialised ritual and I think it detracts from the individuality of the characters, it would be equivalent to having an army of vampires.


Maybe I'm just fussy.

Nomad
05-03-2009, 17:13
I can't say I like the idea of an army of "mummies", embalming was a specialised ritual and I think it detracts from the individuality of the characters, it would be equivalent to having an army of vampires.


Maybe I'm just fussy.

I agree entirely. Fluffwise I can't see why any Nehekharan king would go to the expense of mummifying their soldiers. I much prefer the Tomb Kings army in its current conceptualisation.

Bloodknight
05-03-2009, 17:19
So do I.
That said, Tomb Guard are sort of semi-mummies in the fluff (and IMO the TG are the successors of the mummy units of the old Undead before the split of the books), just the models don't represent that too well.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2009, 17:33
As you say they're "sort of" mummies. Their embalming is far less extensive compared to the rituals the kings and princes undergo. Perhaps somebody saw plastic tomb guard sculpts and got confused- Fingers crossed, the current models are great, but suffer from being in one pose.

Godswildcard
05-03-2009, 18:08
In all seriousness, I think some of the biggest problems I had with my kings were the charge responses and lack of marching. This is an army that in life was highly trained, well equipped and HIGHLY disciplined (they just stood at attention in a massive chamber whilst being buried alive!). They knew their tactics well and knew how to handle a fight. In death, they are supposed to retain a portion of their old cunning. So is it too much to ask that my light horsmen be able to do the feined flee? how about for my bowman to stand an shoot? also, I don't believe that just because they are undead they have to be slow. Even dwarfs can move faster than we can!! Imagine a vast undead horde heading straight at you as fast as they could while staying in formation. That would be great!
As far as the mummies issue, I agree that they shouldn't be in there. Mummification was an honor reserved for the princes and kings, and partially given to the 'Elite' tomb guard. Having a unit of unnamed mummies running around the board totally goes against the fluff!
I dunno. I can't wait until the Kings get a revamp. As soon as they do, I will be buying MASSIVE amounts of stuff and sitting in a pile of plastic (hopefully) petting my ushabti whispering "myyyyyy precioussssss...." under my breath!

Bloodknight
05-03-2009, 18:14
Yeah, lack of marching is the biggest problem. I can't remember the last time I really could use that one spell per turn that goes through on anything else except a few shots. Filling a unit back up rarely works because we can't spam spells like VC, but the ones we've got are usually pretty low-powered as well.

Cronanius
05-03-2009, 18:47
As you say they're "sort of" mummies. Their embalming is far less extensive compared to the rituals the kings and princes undergo. Perhaps somebody saw plastic tomb guard sculpts and got confused- Fingers crossed, the current models are great, but suffer from being in one pose.

Well, it's true that their embalming is far less extensive than the Tomb Kings... but I for one would *love* to see a little more mummification in our army for some very elite units. It would give us something to paint besides bones ;).

So far, there are two ideas that I found that I really, really, disproportionately liked. One was the "construct army", because, good lord, this would be a fantastically fun and unique army. It could give us two "army-type options"... by taking a Liche High Priest as the General Hierophant, and at least one more Liche Priest, perhaps we could lose a lot of army options, but have "construct units", like the Ushabti, Scorpions, Bone Giants, Carrion, Tomb Swarm, and perhaps a smaller, newer construct type (that would rank up a little better), get special bonuses to making up the majority of our army. But the downside could be that we wouldn't be allowed to take Tomb Kings or Princes, Tomb Guard, Chariots, Scythan Nomads (below), and maybe the Casket. They could flesh out Vizier Sehenesmet as the special character epitomizing this force :D.
[Edit: I should probably note that I want this so I can create a fluffy army list... not necessarily a powerful one. So even if it's hugely handicapped, I'll still love it for the cool-factor]

The other was the living cavalry units, because screw garbage undead cavalry (talk nice about them all you want, our chariots are infinitely superior). Why not add Scythan Nomads (read your rulebook fluff, you living-haters, they're in there) as either light or heavy cavalry? And how about some on foot, as scouts? They would likely be
a) Well-modelled and easy to paint nicely,
b) Their black robes would be a fantastic contrast to the bones of the skeletons, and
c) We need some scouts!
There's a great picture of one on page 15 of the rulebook :D.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2009, 19:06
As I mentioned earlier in the thread I think the diversity and theme of the list would benefit from living units so I deffinitely agree they should make it into the next edition. My own house rules include 3 living units and a living hero. One unit can be made as speramen, archers or skirmishing scouts, one is naked greatweapon wielding skirmishers and the other is a fast cavlary unit.

I've altered skeleton light cavalry so they're intersting but I still can't work out what to do with "heavy" cavalry so I've scrapped them at the moment. I think the only wishlist suggestion I've seen for them in this thread is to turn them into wights and I'm not particularly keen on that as it clashes too much with the iconic chariot units.

Von Wibble
05-03-2009, 19:17
But that pretty much describes the problem with heavy/ light horse. Chariots can fill the same role as heavy horse for less points, whether as a frontal unit or a flanker (obviously the latter with the current rules). 10 skeleton foot archers are nearly as good as skeleton light horse (and if the army had living foot troops these would be even better).

King tutankhumut I believe had living troops in his army (Nubians? - really should change this name to one less relevant to our world) - so I agree with this idea - at minimum as an option with a special character.

Hubman - if you compare tomb guard across all books they are fine. But if you only compare with 7th edition books they are not. But a single point drop in cost would make all the difference. Or, to represent superior discipline, let them cast Urgency/Smiting on themselves once per turn?

Carrying on with this thought, what about increasing the move value of all units in the list. This would represent teh discipline of the army and would be compensated for by the fact that the army can't march unless incantations are used (so most of it can't...). Without marching the army is still slower than most others, with it even the infantry starts catching enemy cavalry.

Ancre
05-03-2009, 20:55
If Tomb Kings have living fast cavalry, I would like to see camels. I don't know if it's totally against the fluff or not, I know Arabia armies are supposed to have some (if they ever come out in warhammer) but if I have understood weel those two countries are separated by a desert with oasises and nomads in it, so it might fit ? And anyways I am longing to see a cavalry unit on camels ! I want one, I would probably buy it even if I don't play TK :D

Cronanius
05-03-2009, 21:21
If Tomb Kings have living fast cavalry, I would like to see camels.

Remember the Mamlukes from Age of Empires 2? Nomadic camel-riding sword-throwers. That's what we need :D.

Death Whisper
07-03-2009, 06:26
Haha, Saracen Mamelukes were badass in that game. However, having a mounted unit with thrown weapons is kinda useless for Tomb Kings, since they have the Arrows of the Asp special rule anyway, and I doubt that fast cavalry units would have a Strength greater than 3 anyway. Unless the thrown swords were treated as a combination of javelins and throwing axes with a range of 8" and S of 4. Maybe with a rule that makes them cause Fear in cavalry (horses are supposed to be scared of camels, even the smell of camels makes them nervous, though horses, for such large animals are inordinately scared of many things). Hmm, I can see a use for such a unit.

holmcross
07-03-2009, 06:39
I'd like to see a Bone Giant model that doesn't look like a big goofy ape. The art for the bone giant in the codex is seriously badass.

( http://www.coolminiornot.com/140024 )

Charistoph
07-03-2009, 06:41
Some other thoughts I had today:

-"My Will Be Done": So long as any character with this rule is on the board, all units can march. Standard on Tomb Kings and Princes. Is a non-magical, standard upgrade for Liche Priests and/or Icon Bearers. Keep all other parts of this rule intact.

-"Heirophant": So long as any character with this rule is on the board, the army will not automatically Crumble on it's own (combat crumbling happens as normal). Standard rule for all Liche Priests. Can be a non-magical, standard upgrade for Tomb Kings, Princes, and/or Icon Bearers.

-Non-magical, standard upgrade being like basic armor or weapon upgrades on a character.

Of course, setting up additional special lines ala Ogre Great Names or Vampire Powers that allow for these rules could work, too.

snurl
07-03-2009, 08:05
read Nagash the sorcerer for 1 million great ideas.

Von Wibble
07-03-2009, 13:48
Haha, Saracen Mamelukes were badass in that game. However, having a mounted unit with thrown weapons is kinda useless for Tomb Kings, since they have the Arrows of the Asp special rule anyway, and I doubt that fast cavalry units would have a Strength greater than 3 anyway. Unless the thrown swords were treated as a combination of javelins and throwing axes with a range of 8" and S of 4. Maybe with a rule that makes them cause Fear in cavalry (horses are supposed to be scared of camels, even the smell of camels makes them nervous, though horses, for such large animals are inordinately scared of many things). Hmm, I can see a use for such a unit.

But would a camel therefore be immune to fear from a cold one? Or a daemon steed? Or a skeletal steed? Would they cause fear in wolves?

Only a few armies actually have horses. Such a rule would therefore be niche.

Charistoph - nice ideas but a little too good. I think the "my will be done" would be better with a radius applied. But then its just the same as vampires.

Hence my above suggestion of just giving a higher M value but no marching.

Hubman
07-03-2009, 14:48
But that pretty much describes the problem with heavy/ light horse. Chariots can fill the same role as heavy horse for less points, whether as a frontal unit or a flanker (obviously the latter with the current rules). 10 skeleton foot archers are nearly as good as skeleton light horse (and if the army had living foot troops these would be even better).

King tutankhumut I believe had living troops in his army (Nubians? - really should change this name to one less relevant to our world) - so I agree with this idea - at minimum as an option with a special character.

Hubman - if you compare tomb guard across all books they are fine. But if you only compare with 7th edition books they are not. But a single point drop in cost would make all the difference. Or, to represent superior discipline, let them cast Urgency/Smiting on themselves once per turn?

Carrying on with this thought, what about increasing the move value of all units in the list. This would represent teh discipline of the army and would be compensated for by the fact that the army can't march unless incantations are used (so most of it can't...). Without marching the army is still slower than most others, with it even the infantry starts catching enemy cavalry.

Hi there,

I am against increasing the movement values of undead - they were humans before, not elves. Discipline does not alter their biology (or is that bonology now?:D) just like it didnīt for VC Grave Guard or Empire Greatswords etc. Giving undead movement reserved for all elves and Skaven is not the way to go.

I could however see a VC rule being imported: units may march within 12" of the general (or Hierophant but if you ask me, maybe the whole Hierophant and crumbling set should be discarded altogether or transferred to the King). It was a major improvement to VC and could do the same for TK.

A point reduction or Horekhahīs Incantation of Righteous Smiting on the TG seem like good solutions. The Smiting will only work in CC and can be dispelled of course - itīs just another free spell. Urgency is way too strong to be given for free to this unit because it is a no-brainer.

And for all the others who replied to me or spoke about things I mentioned:

Both Light and Heavy Horsemen do have their uses. Chariots are better at killing the enemy, but Heavy Horsemen also have a lot of staying power. They should not have the same abilities as regular heavy cavalry, as they are 7-8 points cheaper than most standard heavy cavalry. Not being able to flee is a mainstay of all undead and should not be changed even if it does mean that some of the real advantages of being Fast Cavalry are lost on undead. Perhaps some special rule allowing Light Horsemen to march as long as there is a Musician in the unit would help them out. Iīd also give them light armour, either for free or for +1 point if the "Marching while Musician is present" rule comes to be.:) Skeleton Heavy Horsemen are there mostly to supply static CR to a fight, while Chariots are there to deliver the killing power...so what to change to get them to function again? The unit size is geared for 6th Edition, so that has to change instantly. Other than that, I currently see little way of really improving them without overpowering them or inventing incredibly weird special rules. Perhaps granting them +1 to hit whenever they charge?

So Ushabti arenīt good because of their low M and poor armour? Give them a 4+ armour save and M6 to straighten them out.

TK should not have scouts really. All undead in WFB are like shambling hordes - TK shamble just a bit more diciplined really, but having scouts would not fit the oncoming tide of bony horror theme. Besides, Tomb Swarms and Scorpions can already perform much like scouts do.

Despite this being a wishlist thread I cannot for the life of me imagine that living units will be added to TK. VC lost them in an effort to streamline the rules and I think it was a good move - undead are undead. It is best to have a single theme and stick to it; mixed armies were a problem for VC as they required generals to be near for instance Ghouls once they started running. Considering that TK never had living units before, Iīll wager GW is not about to add some now.

I do see a unit of skirmishing Mummies making the TK list. They would be much like Cairn Wraiths in their use, but somewhat different. Not ethereal but heavily embalmed (older Mummies had incredible T and W characteristics) and powerful in combat, but slow due to M4 (they used to have M3 but without the Double Pace rule, theyīd be pointless if only M3). As for the "not embalming soldiers" argument, we could call them Royal Consorts. Theyīd be deceased mummified former queens, by-queens or members of the royal harem - imagine angry female mummies running about!:evilgrin: If itīs male mummies you want, well, deceased sons of the king who died before him are a good option too. Think of this statline:
M3 Ws3 Bs0 S4 T5 W3 I3 A2 Ld8 AS5+
Special rules:
-Undead
-Dry! Unsaved flaming wounds are doubled.
-Embalmed! Layers of linnen, protective amulets and copious amounts of resin give Royal Consorts an armour save of 5+.

Options:
-extra handweapon
-flail

Iīll leave it at this for now!

Kind regards,

Hubman

Geordie Vampire
07-03-2009, 15:46
Well I've currently only read the first page of this post but I think we should all be agreed that new skeletons are a must as like someone said they are bigger than Empire State Troops. They should be similar in size to the VC range but with more like arabic cloth (them little like skirty things Egypt Faction has on Rome: Total War google it and you'll know what I mean) as well as the current head gear thing available.

I don't think that the TK should have a human option if anything VCs should, because if you read Vampire Wars Vlad had whole companies of Empire Troops and peasants fighting along side Skeletons and Zombies. Also classically Dracula and Renfield (don't know how you spell his name though.)

More magic spells are definetly required after all this is one of the oldest civilisations after the Elves and Lizzies. They should be better at regenerating troops if not generating whole new units, perhaps a few magic missiles and some nasty things like curses that affect things like enemy casting, armour saves, ward saves, magic items and stats in general.

Points cost should be lowered slightly (skeleton infantry particularly) Light Armour Stantard and I like the Pike idea to fight in 3 ranks but maybes make that an option so those who like spears can still have them.

Would love plastic Tomb Guard & Ushabtii. Don't like the dragon idea but definetly some kind of new construct would be cool

Definetly make Lords and Heroes better at defending themselves e.g. bog standard 4+ ward save for Hyrophants. Would also like to see new SC's and even if not for TKs I would like to see a new Nagash at somepoint in the future but GW seem to affraid to advance the fluff to far forward.

Yeah currently thats it for now :p

Sheena Easton
07-03-2009, 21:10
I see living troops as more of a Vampire thing to be honest - Tomb Kings I see as being proper undead, with everything they have at their disposal as not being alive (or having never been alive), while Vampires are frequently referenced as having living servants and troops - especially the Von Carsteins with the Sylvanian Peasants / militia levies...


Having started reading 'Nagash the Sorcerer', I already have tons of ideas to improve the list.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/basmic/smilies/hang.gif


read Nagash the sorcerer for 1 million great ideas.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/basmic/smilies/hang.gif


The sooner that rancid **** masquerading as a book is flushed, the better...

Charistoph
07-03-2009, 23:29
Charistoph - nice ideas but a little too good. I think the "my will be done" would be better with a radius applied. But then its just the same as vampires.


I was thinking the exact same thing about Vampires, only, there are Vampires everywhere in that army list. The only part that doesn't have a Vampire in it is the Core, you can take Vampires any where else.

Unless the above mentioned Mummy unit came into play as a Special or Rare unit, and a similar unit for the other side, having a range on it might be to limiting. These characters have been doing this for longer than most of the Vampires, and their will should be a bit broader.

How about this:

-New Rule: Mummified: These people were the greatest and most respected of the King's court, and special care was taken when they were entombed. Due to this level of care, they are able to project their will more than the average Khemri. Liche Priests have undergone a similar preparation that provides them eternal life to maintain the tombs. Counts as Undead and Flammable. In addition, all Tomb Kings units within 12" can march. Any unit that is joined by, or made up of Mummified units does not suffer from Crumbling at any time. (Should they also carry the Curse of the Ancients?)

-Tomb Guard now gain the Mummified rule. Also, any Tomb King not mounted in a chariot counts allows one unit of Tomb Guard to be taken as a Core Choice, but that unit MUST always stay with that Tomb King (ala Lizardmen Temple Guard and their Slaan).

-New Unit: Tortured Souls (can't think of a better name, Suggestions welcome): These men were guilty of the most heinous crimes and mummified while still alive. They are cursed to fight and defend the lord and people that they betrayed by being their eternal guardians. Some say, there are some among these foul creations that are more recent, tomb robbers who were captured alive to pay for their crimes. Some also say that they look for others to join their cursed and miserable existence.

Unit Type: Rare
M WS BS S T W I A LD
D6 3 0 4 4 2 2 D3 9

Unit Size: 5+
Weapons: Hand Weapon and Wraps.
Special Rules: Mummified, Stubborn, Wraps.

Wraps: Mummies are covered in a magical type of cloth that hangs from their body and provides the life and strength of undeath. It also seeks out the living to ensnare into it's holding. Any living, infantry or cavalry models which are killed by any unit wielding Wraps must take a Leadership (or should it be Strength?) test. If they fail this test, they become ensnared by the Wraps and become a Tortured Soul that joins the wielder's unit. If the Wielder is mounted, or the player does not have any such models, then that model does not get transformed and is slain, crushed by the enthusiasm of the Wraps.

Apologies of the formatting.

W0lf
07-03-2009, 23:45
living troops would be cool and a great way to further the gap between TK + VC.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-03-2009, 23:48
If you want tomb king units to be able to march you have to consider the impact on mobility of the army as a whole and the power and reliability of the magic within the army.

The fact that this rule essentially replicates the rules for vampires is a big negative as far as I'm concerned.

I think you're going to create an army of vampires with chariots, not a uniquely tomb king army.

Cronanius
08-03-2009, 01:41
If you want tomb king units to be able to march you have to consider the impact on mobility of the army as a whole and the power and reliability of the magic within the army.

The fact that this rule essentially replicates the rules for vampires is a big negative as far as I'm concerned.

I think you're going to create an army of vampires with chariots, not a uniquely tomb king army.

Normally, I don't like getting myself into these debates, but this time I can't help myself.

So you'd rather we couldn't march?
The magic is all well and good... but when your opponent is taking 3 dispel scrolls and 2 wizards in a 1500 point list, we have to build the _same damn army list every godforsaken time_ if we want to be able to move anywhere! Us and VC are BOTH undead! If you don't want to be like them, play a living army! There are lots! We're going to share characteristcs with them simply because we're undead, whether you like it or not. The whole "OMG I DUN WAN B LIKE VC!" is irritating to listen to. We share our most important characteristic - undeath - with VC.

I can understand not wanting to turn into a "clone" of another army; this is quite acceptable. But *not being able to march* is a crucial setback for TK. You have to know where to draw the line when it comes to similarities, and I don't think the marching thing is too much to ask for.

That being said, under the Vampire Counts' "Undead" rule, it specifies that "undead units may not march unless within 12" of the army general" or something. If it's under the *undead* rule, I would put a lot of money on it being in our next book as well. Although I'll also bet that our movement incantation will specify that "units that have marched may not have this cast on them".

On that note, if you want to be different so badly, hope that they give the Icon Bearer a stats boost and *him* the "undead march radius" :D. That would make him an auto-take for nearly every army! Pity I can't see this happening...

Hiratu
08-03-2009, 03:01
So you'd rather we couldn't march?
The magic is all well and good... but when your opponent is taking 3 dispel scrolls and 2 wizards in a 1500 point list, we have to build the _same damn army list every godforsaken time_ if we want to be able to move anywhere! Us and VC are BOTH undead! If you don't want to be like them, play a living army! There are lots! We're going to share characteristcs with them simply because we're undead, whether you like it or not. The whole "OMG I DUN WAN B LIKE VC!" is irritating to listen to. We share our most important characteristic - undeath - with VC.

It goes the other way as well. If you want your undead to march so badly play VC, plenty of people get on well enough in friendly games and tournaments without TK being able to march.

Cronanius
08-03-2009, 05:46
It goes the other way as well. If you want your undead to march so badly play VC, plenty of people get on well enough in friendly games and tournaments without TK being able to march.

Touche, sir!

Charistoph
08-03-2009, 07:56
That being said, under the Vampire Counts' "Undead" rule, it specifies that "undead units may not march unless within 12" of the army general" or something. If it's under the *undead* rule, I would put a lot of money on it being in our next book as well. Although I'll also bet that our movement incantation will specify that "units that have marched may not have this cast on them".

It also includes within 6" of any Vampire, though, I doubt any Khemri would willing follow a Vampire...

The reason I used 12" for the Mummified rule above is due to the discipline of the Khemri troops combined with the strong will of the Tomb Kings themselves.

Of course, it could just be that the Khemri would be able to march anyway...

Hiratu
08-03-2009, 09:10
Touche, sir!

I just want to say I wasn't trying to be a jerk and sorry if I came across as such. After re-reading my post it sounded kind of crappy.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-03-2009, 10:23
Cronanius, As Hiratu said, there's already one undead army that can march, there doesn't need to be another. I'd prefer the two armies to have a slightly different set of mechanics for movement and as many other differences as they can cram in whilst retaining the themes of undead, curses, chariots and Egypt.

If you remember, during the prevous vampire counts book they had the ability to march then too, so I wouldn't bet too much on the tomb kings being able to march it seems to be one of the defining elements. If they do make them march then incantations will probably have to change.

If you don't like my ideas that's fine, we're unlikely to all want the same thing, but your post (#138) came across as quite rude.

Geordie Vampire
08-03-2009, 10:36
Personally I think TK should march on the bases that in life they were this hugely organised, well trained, disciplined army and they can continue that in death under the will of a Tomb King or Prince because when i use to play TK although it wasnt always a factor not being able to march was a right pain as a lot of armies could outmanouver and flank with ease, or against woodelves and skins just run circles round me.

So maybe GW can make a rule that has a slight negative effect on TK units when they march say 2D6 Strength1 hits as an example

Gazak Blacktoof
08-03-2009, 11:21
I agree that the current situation is often frustrating in low point games where its difficult to gain any momentum. The army needs more potency under certain circumstances.

Death Whisper
09-03-2009, 01:43
As in the fluff, Vampires are merely the undead lieutenants of Nagash that ended up betraying him, their powers should be limited in comparison to the Tomb Kings, whose magic Nagash studied and expanded upon in order to achieve mastery over death. However, Vampire Counts are different from the Tomb Kings in that the normal Nehekarans are not affiliated with Nagash, so perhaps the two armies should have some differences.

To this extent, maybe a more powerful version of the Vampire Counts marching rule should be available to the Tomb Kings. If any Tomb King or Prince is alive, units can march. The specific units that can march should be greater for Kings than Princes. Skeleton Warriors/Archers, Light and Heavy Cavalry for Tomb Princes, and in addition to that, Chariots, Tomb Guard for Tomb Kings.

Additionally, High and standard Liche Priests should allow marching for Undead Constructs, again with a greater variety allowed marching with High Liche Priests. Ushtabi only for the standard Liche Priest, and in addition to that, Tomb Scorpions and Bone Giants for High Liche Priests.

theunwantedbeing
09-03-2009, 02:32
I'de like TK's to keep the current "cannot march" rule.
The weakness in moving as I see it is more down to the way the magic phase works and it simply not being up to standard to offset the weakness of being unable to march.

I'de much rather see Tomb Kings and Priests play different roles beyond one being weak casting and fighty, the other being powerful casting and not fighty.

A Tomb King fulfills the role of directing the troops, the Priest fulfills the role of keeping them around.
So with a King you have the rule My Will, Be Done! which grants all unit's within 12" the ability to move,shoot or fight. The Prince rule is docked to only 6" of range.
With the High priest you have the ability to raise on all units within 12", reduced to 6" for Regular Liche priests.
In addition to this, the King can raise his own unit and another. The Prince merely his own unit.
Priests can cast the move/shoot/fight incantation on those nearby.

This way, priests are definite raisers..although a king can compensate.
While the Kings/Princes are generals granting the army greater freedom of movement, while priests can compensate for it.

Each ability is a once per unit, per turn thing...so no spamming of one thing onto the same unit.

Constructs could do with being faster really.
When I faced a TK army a while back I made a point of taking out his ushabti as I saw them as a real threat, however I failed to kill them all at range so saw them move. He only moved them 5" so I asked why....turns out they only had a 5" movement rate, boy was I shocked.
They need mv6

The icon bearer....that really needs to be changed.
Either allow a prince to be the icon bearer, or grant the icon bearer as an upgrade to a character. Similar to how a DE assasin is effectively a unit upgrade.
You can then allow the icon bearer to ride in a character's chariot alongside him, which is cool ^_^.

Anyway, those are just my thoughts. I have other idea's on how to improve upon the current rules but those can wait.