PDA

View Full Version : blade of realities/carnosaur vs popemobile



Foegnasher
27-02-2009, 12:03
who wins? assumeing the popemobile is manned by the stanard arch lector with the speculum, etc...

ewar
27-02-2009, 12:19
Oldblood every time. The carnosaur is unaffected by the speculum, so will be doing 4 attacks at S7 with D3 wounds. Whats the popemobiles toughness? 5 from memory, so the carny can just attack the chariot, kill it, hes not unbreakable any more hey presto auto breaks from fear.

Arguleon-veq
27-02-2009, 12:55
The Carni cant do that as it will be involved in the challenge that would be made.

The Old Blood goes with his now 2 S5;
0 Wounds.
Carni goes with its 4 S7;
2 Hits,
1.6 Wounds,
1 Saved,
X2 for Pred rule.
2 Wounds done. [1.6]

Lector goes with his now 5 S6;
3.33 Hits,
Re Rolls due to Hatred,
4.44 Hits,
3.7 Wounds.
2-3 wounds depending on the equipment of the Oldblood. [2 if he has an enchanted shield]

Carni will off him next turn though and then eat the Alter.

It is all very close. With a Carni in the list though, that Lector may well get off his re roll prayer.

explorator
27-02-2009, 13:07
The Oldblood may be at an advantage, but this is not an auto-win for him by any means. The Carnosaur hits on 4's and wounds on 2's, but the pope-mobile does have a 4+ ward save that it takes prior to the d3 wounds being applied. So just on average, the carnosaur will hit twice, both wound, the pope-mobile makes one ward save, and the carnosaur does two wounds.

Not that scary actually. The Arch-Lector with the speculum may defeat the Oldblood, depending on what he is equipped with. In fact, the more I think about it, a standard-issue Arch-Lector with the speculum will most likely shred the Oldblood.

Arguleon-veq
27-02-2009, 13:32
He wont 'shred' the Oldblood at all, I just posted the numbers for it. If the Oldblood takes the Enchanted Shield, which he should. Then it is 2 wounds.

It is a very close fight, one in which the Oldblood on Carni has the advantage and should win on average. But it is close enough to go either way.

Ensign Ricky Vs. The Nids
27-02-2009, 13:38
Arch Lector would fail big time, speculem only works in challenges, so single model/model on mount would be immune, would it not?

Cambion Daystar
27-02-2009, 13:42
No, seeing as they can't refuse the challenges...

Foegnasher
27-02-2009, 14:07
i was thinking more along the lines of blade of realities vs popemobile (which has no given ld!) equals arch lector on foot vs carnosaur.

Atrahasis
27-02-2009, 14:16
The Carnosaur is S7 - one unsaved wound on the Altar and it is matchsticks.

The Lector's only real chance is to charge, challenge, and kill the carnosaur before it gets to attack. Then he only has to worry about passing the Ld5 test to keep the altar safe from the Blade of Realities.

Gaius Marius
27-02-2009, 14:37
Um, The Pope mobile is a Chariot. Any unsaved strength 7 wound destroys it. So the carnosaur only has to get through once and the mobile is firewood.

I just had a very similar experience the other day, and by blind luck I made my 4+ ward saves for the mobile. That Carnosaur is BRUTAL.

Gaius Marius
27-02-2009, 14:38
Sorry Atrahasis you beat me to it. Cheers ~ Gaius Marius

Arguleon-veq
27-02-2009, 14:55
Can he attack the Alter itself during the challenge, do they not have to fight the Lector? The Chariot is not a Monster or a Steed and so it shouldnt fight in the challenge right? and so cant be targetted.

Atrahasis
27-02-2009, 15:01
Yes, he can.

Arguleon-veq
27-02-2009, 15:06
Are you sure? in the book it says that only steeds and monsterous mounts fight in any challenge. If so, that makes the Alter pretty rubbish really.

Atrahasis
27-02-2009, 15:31
Yes, I'm sure. Reread page 77.

Arguleon-veq
27-02-2009, 15:43
I have but to me it just says that the Chariot is not part of the challenge as it isnt a steed or a monster, but the creatures pulling it can attack. As the chariot itself isnt in the challenge though, I would have thought it couldnt be attacked.

I may have to re think my Alter use if it can be lol.

ewar
27-02-2009, 15:53
Yes, he can.

Is it really necessary to be that brief? Maybe you're not aware, but it comes across as very passive agressive.

For those of us who don't keep our BRBs in the office, would you care to explain why?

jax40kplyr1
27-02-2009, 15:56
The popular popemobile setup I've seen around is the +1 Str ASF blade, 1+ AS and Swap stats item. The Carno/Old Blood setup I use is BoR, EC, LA, giving me a 1+. Figure on 5 attacks from the Pope, averages 3 hits against either model, wounds on 3s, averages 2 wounds - still not enough to kill either model, with a 50% chance of saving with the Old Blood. The Oldblood hits back, averages 3 hits, wounds 1.5 times, has something like a 40% chance of killing him outright. Carnosaur hits chariot on 4s, averages 2-3 hits, wounds 2-3 times - 50% chance to fail ward saves - pops immediately. Pope loses unbreakable, fails snake eyes, gets run down by carno/old blood.
Of course, mathhammer doesn't always work, but statistically Old Blood/Carno should win most times.

Gaius Marius
27-02-2009, 17:03
Yes the Carno will in fact win most times.

caeanan
27-02-2009, 19:15
I thought the usual pope setup was the str 10 mace swap stats with the old blood and swing at the carnosaur with the one str 10 d6 wound hit.

Peril
27-02-2009, 19:30
The Chariot is considered a mount and is included in challenges. The steeds pulling the chariot are a part of the chariot and participate. Because they are considered part of the chariot, they cannot be targetted separately.

jax40kplyr1
27-02-2009, 20:07
As specified in the newest FAQ out for WHF - otherwise my dragon ogres with GW would be flanking the popemobile every time.

Foegnasher
27-02-2009, 20:38
The Chariot is considered a mount and is included in challenges. The steeds pulling the chariot are a part of the chariot and participate. Because they are considered part of the chariot, they cannot be targetted separately.

so what is the unmodified leadership of the chariot?

Amornar
27-02-2009, 20:48
As far as I know any unit that has a "-" as a value is the same as a "0" which means that it would automatically fail? Hmm the Blade of Realities just even more interesting....

Foegnasher
27-02-2009, 21:07
As far as I know any unit that has a "-" as a value is the same as a "0" which means that it would automatically fail? Hmm the Blade of Realities just even more interesting....

:evilgrin:

now you see what i'm saying. one hit kill, then let the carnisaur eat the little arch-doucheb*g.

kroq'gar
28-02-2009, 05:15
Chariots a warmachine, so the chariot itself is ITP (just whatever crews its no, and riders rules ovverride).

Archlector would win, one hatred st10 at the carni, and with t5 4+ward he'lol live easy.

Amornar
28-02-2009, 06:54
Although warmachines themselves are ItP the Blade of Realities doesn't exempt units that are ItP, its just take a LD test. Hopefully this will the FAQed. There are really only three ways they could rule this:
1- No LD stat = auto fail
2- Use LD of character/crew
3- Immune to special rule, roll to wound as normal

Just my 2 cents....

sniperjolly
28-02-2009, 17:16
AL takes shield of gorgon, VHS, and sword of fate, carnisaur is at -1 attack, AL wounds on 2+ no AS, d3 wounds, with what? 5 attacks, rerollable? I dunno about the blade of realities, but I won this challange last week w/ the AL.
Also, I would like to complan on the case of "I'm an inaniamate object, I dont have feelings!" and, "I'm unbreakable, I don't do LD checks."

Gaargod
28-02-2009, 18:08
Blade of Realities doesn't work like that - its a blade that doesn't actually really exist on this reality and whatever it hits has to take a leadership test to stop it being ripped apart and scattered into multiple dimensions to represent their force of will to hold it together. Hence, being an inanimate object is really unhelpful.

Interestingly, what happens if the blade of realities hits a castle? Technically, its an inanimate object, so does it just get ripped apart? If so, he would rock for castle sieges

decker_cky
28-02-2009, 20:23
You'd use the leadership of the mounts wouldn't you? I think the steeds pulling the war altar have a leadership. If not, the war altar would indeed auto-pop. Even with the extra attacks for the archlector....he'd be looking at 4 wounds minimum caused by the altar's death, and anything caused by the carnosaur. In all likelyhood, that's him autobreaking and fleeing.

sniperjolly
28-02-2009, 21:06
this was all probably because he diden't realise that the carnosaur is str 7 and directed all his attacks on the AL...

decker_cky
28-02-2009, 21:55
I'd probably allocate all the attacks on the actual altar to kill it. Even with VHS, the archlector isn't THAT big of a threat. You should break him on the charge.

Necromancy Black
28-02-2009, 22:02
Ok everyone, pages 64 of the BRB clearly states that you can attack the chariot a character is riding in the same way as you cna attack a monstorous mount.

So yes, you can attack the popemobile with the BoR. Without a Leadership stat it's unknown what happens here. The chariot rules say it's never used, but previous rules for things like characteristic tests say that if they have nothing or 0 for a stat they autofail.

Looking at page 5, leadership tests seem to be a subset of characteristic tests. The definition of a characteristic test is when you have to test against a characteristic.

So most likely that means the popemobile auto fails its leadership test (as the test made be made on his own unmodified leadership) and is removed from the game, leaving the carnosaur to smack into the archlector which, if he somehow survives, will be running on everything but snake eyes.

explorator
01-03-2009, 04:13
Wait...The War Altar is drawn by warhorses, and those horses certainly do have a LD value. Wouldn't the LD of the horses be used? The warhorses LD is low, but it at least gives a chance to pass.

I think if the Oldblood is taking the BoR, then my AL will have the Sword of Fate, and the Gorgon shield in addition to the Speculum.

This is not an auto-win for the Oldblood is my point. Most everyone on this thread seems to take as a given that the Carnosaur mounted Oldblood gets the charge off in this scenario even though the War Altar has the exact same charge range. Impact hits+Sword of Fate/Speculum=Dead carnosaur, combine that with the Gorgon shield and the oldblood now has one chance to hit, and the AL has LD 9 to test vs BoR.

Foegnasher
01-03-2009, 04:58
Wait...The War Altar is drawn by warhorses, and those horses certainly do have a LD value. Wouldn't the LD of the horses be used? The warhorses LD is low, but it at least gives a chance to pass.

I think if the Oldblood is taking the BoR, then my AL will have the Sword of Fate, and the Gorgon shield in addition to the Speculum.

This is not an auto-win for the Oldblood is my point. Most everyone on this thread seems to take as a given that the Carnosaur mounted Oldblood gets the charge off in this scenario even though the War Altar has the exact same charge range. Impact hits+Sword of Fate/Speculum=Dead carnosaur, combine that with the Gorgon shield and the oldblood now has one chance to hit, and the AL has LD 9 to test vs BoR.

the warhorse ld is 5.

that thing is dead no matter how you slice it.

Amornar
01-03-2009, 05:11
Personally it is probably going to come down to either auto fail or test under the crew's ld.