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w3rm
28-02-2009, 13:50
OK here's a typical Monday night at our local gaming club. I show up ready to kick some butt as normal, my list pre-made, my models organized to be as quick as a set up as possible. Then I see Him. He plays Lizardmen. You know the type. "Oh here, you take 800 pts and I'll take my Slaan:wtf:"

Well He NEVER has a list, EVER! I try to tell Him to make a list but He always says "I know what I take, my list is in my head." Now I don't really know the kid but in our group we have a strict rule if it's not on your list you don't have it. I enforce this on my friends and my bro and myself, but I don't want to be a jerk and say "look your not playing if you don't have a list" but I might have to. Any advice on how to do this would be really helpful.

Condottiere
28-02-2009, 14:02
You need a list, you make mistakes; if you have it memorized, great, you won't have a problem writing it down.

Stuffburger
28-02-2009, 14:19
That sounds really annoying. I'd start writing down everything he puts down, look up the point values in his book and ask him what magic he has to see if it all adds up.

Maybe he'll get the point.

theunwantedbeing
28-02-2009, 14:30
I make a habit of writing out my opponent's list when I get back home.
Just to see if they had anything hidden, but sometimes it turns up a lot of cheating.

Accidental or not, I'll call them out on it. Usually stating it's no big deal as not to offend them at all. I will point out that they've been over multiple times if hey have though.

It gets the message across usually.
Although some people just refuse to bring a list and are regularly over the limit and there's really very little you can do about it aside from demmanding that they make a list, or they dont get a game.

EvC
28-02-2009, 14:43
If people don't write lists, it encourages them to cheat. They're only human. I've played at a few GW stores and the more trustworthy an opponent is, the greater the chances he has an amy list written, and the less likely they are to make a "mistake".

Also it doesn't even have to be about cheating- you're far more likely to make an accidental mistake in you just sort the list out in your head.

McMullet
28-02-2009, 14:49
You know the type. "Oh here, you take 800 pts and I'll take my Slaan:wtf:"

Thankfully, I don't know anyone of this type... :wtf: indeed.

Perhaps you could just explain to him that a list is a fundamental part of the game. If he wants to play a modified version of the game, with no lists, then he may do so, but that no one else is likely to want to join in.

starlight
28-02-2009, 15:08
No list? Then he's playing Fantasy Armageddon (whatever they're calling it:p).

Unless I know the person really well (or it's a run-what-you-brung game), No list = no game.

Surgency
28-02-2009, 15:13
If he refuses to bring a list, do the same. drop your entire collection on the table, and tell him its the points limit you agreed on. When he says that it can't be, tell him it is, you have the list in your head

Bloodknight
28-02-2009, 15:15
Correct. No list, no game. Mostly no list also means "no army book", and I am sure as hell not letting somebody play against me without any references to what he has and what that does (I'll let the book thing slide if I play the army, too).

Urgat
28-02-2009, 15:25
Just ask him to prove it by writing it down w/o his armybook :p

Gimp
28-02-2009, 15:35
Hmmm

wow that "800pts vs slann" would **** me off we have the 1650 for 40k and 2250 for fantasy limits. (its the points limits for tournaments in SA).

And as for the no list rules. Well if it is a random then yes a list is required but we all good mates so it wont be needed. Plus we all have really bad memories so we usually always need to read the list we been playing with for momths :)

selone
28-02-2009, 15:46
Whats the reasonin on not doing a list? Is he really claiming hes got a photographic memory?

Preacher
28-02-2009, 16:44
I don't get it, if you guys play every Monday then he should be bringing a list forsure. Its a set date. I ve gone into the store to pick some things up and someone asks for a game and I happen to have my models in the car, even if I play that game I still write a list out.

It sounds like just about everyone in your club writes a list. Why just institute a rule then? No list, no game. Anyone who is going to play fair shouldn't object.

w3rm
28-02-2009, 18:58
Whats the reasonin on not doing a list? Is he really claiming hes got a photographic memory?

He claims he doesn't have enough time...

Hmm maybe I'll just get our rule guy(even though he plays 40k) to make a rule: No List, No Game. Thanks for the help. This monday, I'll talk to him.

theunwantedbeing
28-02-2009, 19:01
He claims he doesn't have enough time...

Before the game starts, he makes his list.
There you go, you just made time for him to make his list.

Similarly, if he isnt turning up and immediately playing then he has time between getting there and setting up to make himself an armylist.

There really is no excuse and you should go right ahead with accusing him of cheating if he refuses to make a list even after providing him with the time to make one. Afterall, if your refusing to make a list, clearly you must be trying to cheat as there is no other reason not to make one. They'll most likely stop cheating as a result, people really dont like being called a cheater, even if they are.

McMullet
28-02-2009, 19:08
He claims he doesn't have enough time...

As theunwantedbeing said - no excuses.

I mean, he already has everything in his head. If he also has at least one hand with a thumb, at least 2 fingers and access to stationery, he can write the list down. Or, if he is completely limbless or lacking the ability to write for some other reason, he can dictate the list to you. Shouldn't take too long for you to transcribe it.

A possible reaction to "There's not enough time" is "It's OK buddy, I don't mind waiting - take all the time you need. :)"

Fenlear
28-02-2009, 19:28
This may be coming from old school logic before there were stupid things like "the most important rule" but when it comes to games with a lot of rules you just need to put your foot down and enforce it. I understand that no one likes to be the bad guy but people learn really fast when your mean. People will keep doing the same bad things again and again when you tell them nicely and have tolerance. I guarantee if everyone just blasted the guy for no list and didn't let him play he would have the most professional looking list ever seen the next time you get together. Geeks/nerds more then anyone are so reluctant to put their foot down but you deserve what you get if you don't.

Neckutter
28-02-2009, 19:34
always tell a person to make a list. that way if you have something it can be backed up in writing.

"of course i have 4 dispel scrolls."

bork da basher
28-02-2009, 19:40
this sort of thing annoys me greatly and ive come accross it before. i make an effort to write my list down, type it up, print out so its clear and understandable for my own benefit aswell as my opponants. someone who consistantly refuses to make a list is clearly attempting to cheat in some way. once or twice is forgivable as some times you simply arnt prepared for the game or you've not had time to jot one down or whatever. refusal to me denotes a cheater. its all too easy to say he's got this and that during a game when the situation calls for it with no written proof that he does or doesnt. as an opponant you can't keep track of his army points unless you are very fluent in the opposing army yourself and even then it can be difficult.

if he's got the time to assemble and paint his minis for a game he has 5-10 minutes spare to write down a list. i'd refuse to play him until he could produce one then i'd consistantly thrash him because he's obviously some sort of git anyway.

Dr. Acula
28-02-2009, 19:42
Making a list (especially if it is a small game) takes less than 10 minutes - even less if he has it in his head.

If someone isn't making a list then there is likely a reason for them to not do it, whether that be sneaking in 60 points of magic items onto a hero or whether it is adding something more major, an additional unit/cannon.

I will not play someone without a list - I don't mind if it doesn't have magic items/fanatics listed as long as the total points reflects this (probably ~900/1000 etc.), but to not have a list at all makes me suspicious.

yabbadabba
28-02-2009, 19:46
Now I don't really know the kid but in our group we have a strict rule if it's not on your list you don't have it. I enforce this on my friends and my bro and myself, but I don't want to be a jerk and say "look your not playing if you don't have a list" but I might have to.

I think you have your answer there. Be polite about, it, inform him of the group rule. If he still refuses, then don't play him. Group/club rules are there to support everyone.

Edit: I have played plentyof games, balanced and unbalanced, without army lists, but that was with both sides agreement.

SlaaneshSlave
28-02-2009, 20:06
Just meet him with the same.

"No lists, cool. I won't get mine either. What I bring out should be about right."

He shouldn't have any issue with you guessing at your list too.

SuperArchMegalon
01-03-2009, 00:24
Yeah, then you can always have the right magic item for the right situation. He'll probably be too dense to calculate your 250 points of items and powers on your lord. Or the fact that you have 4 rares. Etc.

Danny_D14
01-03-2009, 00:32
You need a list, you make mistakes; if you have it memorized, great, you won't have a problem writing it down.


I couldn't even think of any sensible argument to counter this if I were the person not having a list. Just constantly reply this till they get the point and appear with a list or leave you alone.

Kahadras
01-03-2009, 01:01
Personaly I find it annoying when people don't turn up with a list. Your army list is integral to the game as is your army, your dice, your rulebook etc. I find it amusing when people always remember certain things like a ruler or the BRB but always seem to 'forget' their armies book and army list (and usualy get very vague about points and army rules on top of this).

Kahadras

Mouldsta
01-03-2009, 14:13
Lists in your head don't work anyway - I've had a set list that I always used and knew was bang on points, jiggled some stuff around in my head and started using that, but when I actually wrote it out found out I'd be under or over points. I once spent a year playing 3000pt games of epic with a 2800pt list because I'd added it (quickly) in my head and never bothered to re-check it.

Similarly played a game against a nice chap the other day, exactly on points, knew his own rules, knew the main rules. Had missed the bit where you can only have one of each chaos gift per army, and due to some in-head juggling had ended up with 55pts of magic items on his hero.

Gazak Blacktoof
01-03-2009, 14:34
There's not realy any excuse for not having a list. You need to work out the points values to know if your army is legal and so your opponenet can check it too. A list costs you the sum total of a piece of A4 paper and a bit of ink.

Grimtuff
01-03-2009, 16:05
Yup, had this experience the other day most recently.

I was playing 1500pts of 40k with my Daemons that was against (at least) 2500pts of SM. Yet the kid wondered why I packed up after turn 3 after asking the whereabouts of his list and him coming up with a blank. :rolleyes:

Worst one was a guy I played in 3rd ed 40k who was using CSM and more and more random Daemon units kept appearing magically from the carry case (his army was approx the same size as mine (SM) to begin with). No army list was to be seen anywhere.

There is no excuse for not having a list though. I am constantly baffled by the people that simply refuse to make them, though these are the same people that I never play either, so it balances out somewhat.

Used Car Salesman
01-03-2009, 16:21
I have a friend like this, who never makes a list, and is always swapping magic items between characters in-game, adding some in and taking others out, and is sometimes a good chunk of points over or has around 60 points of magic items on a hero. I agree that it is hard to confront someone about this, as no one likes to be called a cheater, even cheaters. As a side note we did confront this person about it with definite proof of cheating and it worked for a pretty long time, until he started cheating again but that's not the point. As someone said above, write down everything he has at the beginning of the battle and calculate up points to make a point.

starlight
01-03-2009, 16:27
At the beginning of the game, if he claims he doesn't have the time, simply pull out a chair and wait until he writes the list. You may lose one game once, but it will get the point across. :)

Havock
01-03-2009, 16:29
So where playing mysteryhammer now eh?

I am fairly sure I can fit a runesword, enchanted shield, collar of Khorne, Blood of Tzeentch and favour of the gods on my sorcerer lord.
Let's not forget having Diabolic splendour and bloodcurdling roar. It fits. Really!

zak
01-03-2009, 17:21
For me its an integral part of the game. If there isn't a list then there isn't a game. It takes about 5-10 minutes to put a list together if necessary so I don't see a need to play without one.

AngryAngel
01-03-2009, 17:36
Is this really even a problem ? Just tell him to write down his list. You don't care how memorized it is. Everyone should have a hard copy list on hand. Mistakes can be made both for and against and how hard is it to write a list honestly now ?

Aurellis
01-03-2009, 17:40
I only play people that make lists or those I can trust to adapt a list on the spot accurately, I've run into too many people who make mistakes (un)deliberately. I've made mistakes totting up points, it's just a good safeguard.

javgoro
01-03-2009, 17:41
I wouldn´t play someone without a list, unless that guy forgot his list at home, always plays the same exact army, and I know it by heart, so...

w3rm
01-03-2009, 17:44
@ AngryAngel- I have told him to do this and he refused

static grass
01-03-2009, 17:45
The problem with not having an army list is that your opponents army list suddenly becomes quite fluid and able to react to down turns in performance.

Given that 40K and WFB are all about the gear. Not having an army list is a huge avantage.

Facing VC and need an extra dispel scroll? *pop* there you go sorted.
Losing combat? Need a warbanner? *pop* there you are sir.
About to roll a rally test? Well a musician is only 5 points whats the harm?

starlight
01-03-2009, 17:49
If he refuses to write out a list, simply refuse to play him. End of story. :)

Like I said, you may lose one game, but would you rather lose one game or have a string of miserable ones with questionable outcomes?

Genrazn
01-03-2009, 18:33
I used to write my list at the store till they got tired of supplying me with paper :P

marv335
01-03-2009, 19:40
No list, No game.
End of.
I keep a pen, pad of paper, dice, tape measure, templates, rulebook, and codex in my army case with my army.
I expect my opponent to have the same resources available to him.

Used Car Salesman
01-03-2009, 19:46
Yeah not only is not making a list irresponsible, but the fact that he refused to make one after you asked him just reeks of cheating.
He probably knows what he's doing and that is one of the easiest ways for someone to fudge around magic items/points/whatever.

Infectum
01-03-2009, 20:35
Yeah not only is not making a list irresponsible, but the fact that he refused to make one after you asked him just reeks of cheating.
He probably knows what he's doing and that is one of the easiest ways for someone to fudge around magic items/points/whatever.

My belief exactly. When i play a game i don't expect my opponent to have a list made up in army builder with the calculated stat lines and all those goodies, but i do expect them to have the gear and models listed so that if a problem comes up then we can sort it out. When i was starting out, there was one kid that never had a list, but knew what things came out to. When we eventually got him to write everything down, he was always over a lot(70-100 points in 1k games for example). I know the points costs for the majority of my units, but still refer to the book while i write my list.

starlight
01-03-2009, 20:39
It would be interesting to see how many units he *decides* ;) to leave in the case after writing up a proper list...:eyebrows:

swarmofseals
01-03-2009, 20:56
Yep, I totally agree -- I would never play someone without a list unless they play the same army that I already know by heart (as another poster said). The only other exception is for a player that people I know and trust vouch for, assuming they know his list by heart.

w3rm
02-03-2009, 01:18
His normal list is(he uses old rules)

Scar Vet on a cold one

Level 2 Priest

24x skinks

12-16 spear saurus

Stegadon

3x kroxigors

6x Chameleon Skinks

Me and my bro added it up and it rounded out to about 1200(I don't have the book but i know most of thier point costs)

AngryAngel
02-03-2009, 03:08
@ AngryAngel- I have told him to do this and he refused


If he refuses to write out a list, simply refuse to play him. End of story. :)

Like I said, you may lose one game, but would you rather lose one game or have a string of miserable ones with questionable outcomes?


Yeah like Starlight said, if he refuses to make a list, refuse to play him, simple as that. I just say it isn't a problem as there is a solution, and that is you can't force someone to make a list. You can however decide who you play with. If he wants to play with you he'll make a list or he can get lost.

ChaosVC
02-03-2009, 03:13
I think that if you do not trust that person, suspecting that he is cheating even though he claim that he had the list in his head, would you trust him even if he had the list written? He can still pull a fast one during the game, why not just simply not play with him?

TrojanWolf
02-03-2009, 03:32
I always write up a list for what I plan on using. I haven't met an opponent who hasn't had a list, but if I did I'd definitely be asking for one. As long as I know they have a list, then everything is fine and the game should be a good one.

I also have a tendency to forget things as well (mostly how my Chaos Knights cause fear, but sometimes items as well).

FredNo.1
02-03-2009, 09:32
tell them to play fair or not at all. having a list is honest. do not accept anything less.

Condottiere
02-03-2009, 10:10
I think the politest way would be to carefully place your list on the table, and look at him expectantly. When he doesn't produce anything, sigh, pack your stuff away and leave.

havoc626
02-03-2009, 10:18
I used to play with no list, and against no list, simply because I had a list that was as effective as I could make it. (40k Necrons) After a certain battle against a good friend, I now refuse to play against anyone without a list unless it is a pick-up and play game. (ie, finished the match I had planned, talking to a guy, offer a game).

There was a fault on my part, but there was a larger fault on his. It was a 2250pt battle (Necrons vs. tau) and I accidentally forgot to field about 500pts worth of models, so I only had ~1750pts. So, fair enough, from then on I make lists. But not only that, I get home, make my friend's list up using my bro's book and find that he had fielded a 3500pt army, with several illegal things (such as 6 shield drones in a squad of broadsides, which all had the SaP, shield generators, Target lock and Targeting array.

My friend simply said 'Oh, whoops, missed that part.' ...I wasn't too impressed with his 'excuse', but I've put it behind me. Mind you, I think that was the last match me and him played, simply because he still doesn't make lists, and still ignores people when rules are pointed out to him. (Like WE helm of the hunt not being able to be used with Oaken armour, enchanted shield and Briarshieth, along with Amber Pendant, Stone of the Crystal Mare and a Greatweapon version of Daith's Reaper.)

Needless to say, it has been a very long time since he's played against anyone, as the vets. at the club know not to verse him, and they warn the new comers. It is a bit sad when things like that have to happen, but some people like to exploit rules (or lack there of, in this case of a written list.) I really wish that GW would just print it in the BRB that you must have a hard copy of your army list, just incase conflicts arise.

moose
02-03-2009, 10:32
A good thing to do with your fellow club members is have 6 lists with you, and roll a D6 for your list. If both you and your opponent do the same, it can be quite interesting with random setups and no tailoring.

Moose.

kroq'gar
02-03-2009, 10:35
I always write my lists, however i find nothing more insulting than actually being asked to show whats there, its essentially 'i think you dont have that, justify yourself'.

To me a list is a calculation, not a bible to justify your cause or stave off prosocution.

slasher
02-03-2009, 10:39
I keep a pen, pad of paper, dice, tape measure, templates, rulebook, and codex in my army case with my army.


As do I - I have no worries about updating my list / writting one after agreeing to a game. As I will often have a 1500(40k) or 2000(WHFB) list but if some one wants a differant size game I have everything to make the changes.

The reason for this is I used to do the calculations in my head but after using 2 scrolls when I'd droped one or losing one wizard but still having 2 scrolls on the board I realised this is a bit wrong - :o

TheMuumio
02-03-2009, 13:33
His normal list is(he uses old rules)

Scar Vet on a cold one

Level 2 Priest

24x skinks

12-16 spear saurus

Stegadon

3x kroxigors

6x Chameleon Skinks

Me and my bro added it up and it rounded out to about 1200(I don't have the book but i know most of thier point costs)
Without any extra stuff (no command or anything), those are between 880 and 936 points or very close. So he can basically add only dispel scroll and little something else.

Anyway, he should write a list just because it's good sportsmanship to have one.

Ixquic
02-03-2009, 15:05
A good thing to do with your fellow club members is have 6 lists with you, and roll a D6 for your list. If both you and your opponent do the same, it can be quite interesting with random setups and no tailoring.

Moose.

A guy at the store I go to ran a tourney like this and it was actually really cool.

..but yeah that guy is totally cheating.

Bac5665
02-03-2009, 16:22
I don't think playing without a list is that big a deal. My basic lizardmen list for 6th was memorized, and while I usually had a list with me, every now and then I didn't and it worked out.

But you absolutely MUST record your list if your opponent asks you too. A few of the times I forgot my list my opponent wanted me to write it down again really quite, and I was happy to oblige. If people trust each other and don't care, having a physical list isn't necessary (though it is better.) But you simply have to supply your opponent with a list if he or she asks.

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:38
you need a list just because when those magic items come out you want to know hes not just claiming to have the one that is perfect for that situation, he may well be telling the truth, but you don't want those nagging doubts if you are to enjoy the game. If you enforce the list thing with everyone, no one can say they didn't know or youre being unfair so there can't be a problem

theunwantedbeing
02-03-2009, 19:46
Even with a list you get cheating.
eg. 2 scroll caddies.

You will have to ask where each scroll is comming from, simply as if you kill 1 caddy and he's used 2 scrolls so far, your opponent will always claim that the 2 scrolls he used were on the caddy who is dead, and that his live caddy has yet to use any scrolls.

Having an armylist is invariably never enough to stop those who are trying to cheat.
But it goes some way to stopping them.

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:49
you should always ask that anyway as they use them.

theunwantedbeing
02-03-2009, 19:51
Yes but then you get the whole,
"sorry did I say X mage was using a scroll? I meant Y mage..sorry".

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:55
nope, once theyve declared it, thats it, no arguing. use counters or write it down if necessary

starlight
02-03-2009, 20:20
Mistakes are how we learn.:p

You "...meant that one...", well next time maybe you'll *remember* that one.:p

Of course it depends on the opponent and the game.

Good guy, casual game? Sure, why not? :)
[Purged by the Inquisition] guy, tournament? Nope, no going back.:p