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fluffstalker
28-02-2009, 23:49
Im practically frakking my breeches.

Im picturing within a few months, as a guard player, I will soon face

whiny SMURFs complaining about how their lysander termie spam lists lost because my guardsmen were overpowered

Oh Emperor save the IG Codex from the stupidity of humanity!

Good lord, lasguns! :cheese:

Karnstein
28-02-2009, 23:52
We will see...and please add the eldar players to the list, who rant that the valkyre beats the falcon.^^

Bathawk
28-02-2009, 23:53
um still a "few months" away as you stating, nothigns written in stone, are you sure you should be "frakking" yourself just yet?

The_Outsider
01-03-2009, 00:02
whiny SMURFs complaining about how their lysander termie spam lists lost because my guardsmen were any unit that beats them must be overpowered


Fixed - though i've been doing this for a while.

Brother_Chaplian Raimo
01-03-2009, 00:03
um still a "few months" away as you stating, nothigns written in stone, are you sure you should be "frakking" yourself just yet?



Except, of course, for the leaked scans of pages of printed, finalized copies. :rolleyes:

jason_sation
01-03-2009, 00:09
Actually, as a Guard player, as much as I worry about being called overpowered, I am more concerned with actually being overpowered! I hope that the new Codex doesn't have some uber unit that everyone has to have. My favorite thing about the Guard has always been that the effectiveness of the army is pretty much spread out, so if you lose one unit, the mediocrity of the whole army still continues forward!

fluffstalker
01-03-2009, 00:25
Yes, Bathawk, theres a lot of information thats available already. While nothing seems obviously broken yet, Ive no doubt that, since new codices generally do, this one will generate complaint as Guard players who have gotten good over the years playing with a mediocre list will suddenly be massacring their opponents.

Im also afraid of those "new codex" people who will jump on the IG bandwagon and make us all look bad. The people who will run nine tanks and the minimum troop choices.

MajorWesJanson
01-03-2009, 00:27
Im also afraid of those "new codex" people who will jump on the IG bandwagon and make us all look bad. The people who will run nine tanks and the minimum troop choices.

You mean Armored Company?

fluffstalker
01-03-2009, 00:31
Not necessarily.

Well personally I dislike Armoured Company, but what Im really saying is people who will min max the list?

How to put this- like in 1.5k pick up games people who are not playing a themed list max out their heavy weapons while taking just enough troops to take objectives.

Its more to do with themes- if your a treadhead and you enjoy armored company and you play by the AC rules Im ok with that.

An annoying kid coming with a regular min maxed list is different.

As a disclaimer Im personally not a fan of AC builds anyway, Id only use them if the opponent agreed beforehand, I wouldnt spring one in a pickup game. Thats a bit offtopic though.

DarkMatter2
01-03-2009, 01:27
The Guard codex is going to be powerful.

As of this moment, it looks like it will have some units that will cause some to have the kneejerk reaction that they are OTT, before they actually analyze the stats.

Things like the Deathstrike and Punisher are going to be talked about.

Do I find any of this troubling? No, I want a competitive codex. I am sort of tired of the stereotype of the Guard as sort of passive aggressive fluff nuts who take GW's savage beatings without a word of complaint before going to make it dinner.

Necrotyr18
01-03-2009, 01:56
Overpowered in my eyes = challenge. If you have a book with more recent rules all the more power to you, but when my turn comes around, Necrons, you'll all be running scared. OR you could step up to the challenge like myself.

MajorWesJanson
01-03-2009, 02:34
I tend to run mechanized forces, or heavy armor forces as is, so I'm loving the new codex. Air Cavalry will be fun too.

fluffstalker
01-03-2009, 03:15
Oh no, what I meant was that Im not disliking the new codex. In Fact I think its shaping up nicely.

Im just saying that Im afraid of being associated with bandwagon jumpers who will suddenly want to play IG as its the new thing, or being accused of winning through my army instead of through generalship.

TheOneWithNoName
01-03-2009, 03:23
My local Tau opponent is already whining about the firepower he's going to have to go up against with the new codex. I suspect we will see a lot of it across the community very soon.

noobzor
01-03-2009, 03:33
My local Tau opponent is already whining about the firepower he's going to have to go up against with the new codex. I suspect we will see a lot of it across the community very soon.

That has to be one of the most ironic statements in the history of GW. :cries::p

But seriously, I am excited about the codex. I am hoping no one switches armies just to have the edge rules-wise.

Of course, they will be shelling out $40 a tank or $20ish per squad.... So maybe an overpowered codex is just what GW wants:rolleyes:

I plan to salvage my guard for fun. It currently is pretty weak. Still, deep striking a full infantry platoon is always fun, even when my 3 flamer command squad dies in the landing :D

Warforger
01-03-2009, 05:50
Yes, Bathawk, theres a lot of information thats available already. While nothing seems obviously broken yet, Ive no doubt that, since new codices generally do, this one will generate complaint as Guard players who have gotten good over the years playing with a mediocre list will suddenly be massacring their opponents.

Im also afraid of those "new codex" people who will jump on the IG bandwagon and make us all look bad. The people who will run nine tanks and the minimum troop choices.

Point costs have not been released so we can't judge, SM sounded incredibly amazing and assumption's that there going to be OP'd seemed prevalent, 3+ invul storm shields, S6 AP3 Flame templates, special ammunition, assault from deep strike, heavy 2 cyclones, etc. all sounded like there going to OP the race, it turns out they are very hard to win with since there is no unit that is a win-win situation (like Nob Bikers). I'm not that scared, as long as the terrain is on my side I don't care if you have a S10 AP1 Heavy 10 Large blast gun, I'll just pop the tank.

DarkMatter2
01-03-2009, 05:58
Dude, 4 point Guardsmen! 4 PT GUARDSMEN! That is the only point value you need to know.

I feel like it kind of hurts that the Leman Russ is getting moved up to 150 pts basic, but still...the extra armor helps make that worth it. I tend to run them Battlecannon and Hull Heavy Bolter only, but depending on how this codex shakes out that might change.

pwrgmrguard
01-03-2009, 06:57
Ten tanks and one superheavy now...Twenty tanks and three super heavies in a year....

Thats my force progression chart independant of infantry. (2.5k worth now, and i dont know how much later)

Remoah
01-03-2009, 07:28
Carefactor: 0
Guard Codex, aint nothing gonna ruin it for me!

chrismp_123
01-03-2009, 08:29
This may not matter much but Im personally glad that the IG is getting beefed up! I play marines and have always longed to build and play a IG army :(. I have never been able to bring myself to do it because I personally have never lost to IG :confused:. I know that sounds harsh but with 4th edition a 10 man assault squad led by a chaplain could destroy nearly every guardsmen on the table if played properly. I am in no way saying Im a great player or IG sucks I am just simply stating that its about time that IG becomes something TO complain about ;). I have never once played in a tournament against IG an thought to myself this is gonna suck. Im happy for IG and as soon as the codex drops I believe I may begin building a new army! :D

Solar_Eclipse
01-03-2009, 08:35
Hmmm well theres the thing. Im planning on runnin Steel legion (after my Death korps, Praetorians and Elysians of course!) and im loving the sound of the new rules.

Here is the plan for 2000 points, with Guesstimation (usually on the higher side)

Command squad with advisors such as Psykers and artillery officers (around 100 points)
Chimera with Autocannon (70 points)

Infantry platoon (60 points per squad, 35 for the command and 60 for the Chimeras) of 3 squads- 455

Infantry platoon (60 points per squad, 35 for the command and 60 for the Chimeras) of 2 squads- 335

Leman Russ Squadron (200 per Leman Russ)- 600
2x Leman Russes- 400

Total- 1960

Basically, 5 squads of infantry and 3 Command squads all in Chimeras (so 8 Chimeras) and 5 Russes in 2000 points.

I dont think this would be overpowered, it sounds quite fun, really.

Looking forward to the new codex so much!

Devil Tree
01-03-2009, 08:41
After having to make do for years, with 2 significantly underpowered Codexes, I canít bring myself to care what some malcontent thinks.

In regards to people jumping on the IG bandwagon, I donít think it will be too bad. I also think youíre overestimating the whine factor when it comes to dedicated IG players. You have to remember, playing IG is a significant investment, both in cost and time painting, more so than any of the other armies.

In my area, when Nidzilla was all the rage, the only people who played that list proxied at least half of their models and the rest had only the most basic paint jobs, if any. If someone were to tell me my IG army, with nearly 150 meticulously painted models I collected over the years was cheesy, I wouldnít have an ounce of shame. Or trouble telling them to shut the hell up.

laudarkul
01-03-2009, 09:12
I'm playing guard and against a SM army the thin red line between victory or defeat is smashing the SM assault squads:D...When I destroy them, then termies marines tanks are just targets for my lasguns and Co.; but when I don't the situation became more exciting (even if I loss)...
Regarding the new codex I do not think that IG will be overpowered...Maybe we'll have some more troops and some of them mech (chimera dropping in points cost). Of course, now I think that with the new Codex a cheese list with Guard can me made (as every other race...frankly IG and DH are the only one without this possibility IMHO) but that depends on each player...
The most important thing about the new codex (if the rumors are ok) is the diversity ;)....Which is perfect :D.

GeneralDisaster
01-03-2009, 09:19
It is this kind of post I find annoying. Fluff aside, each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

The_Outsider
01-03-2009, 09:22
It is this kind of post I find annoying. Fluff aside, each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

Thats all fine and dandy until you realise some codices haven't seen any love for 5 years, others closing in on 10 (or more if you are DE).

Vaktathi
01-03-2009, 09:26
It is this kind of post I find annoying. Fluff aside, each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

Are you really going to sit there with a straight face and say 4th ed Eldar were not, nor 5th ed Orks are not, on entirely different power levels than say...Daemon Hunters?

Leo
01-03-2009, 10:55
Im practically frakking my breeches.

Im picturing within a few months, as a guard player, I will soon face

whiny SMURFs complaining about how their lysander termie spam lists lost because my guardsmen were overpowered

Oh Emperor save the IG Codex from the stupidity of humanity!

Good lord, lasguns!


I donīt think there will be much of a problem.

The pathetic sobbing and whining of Guard and Eldar players about their armies being too weak (and that they still beat everyone all the time due to their amazing skillz, of course) has been echoing through internet forums since time immemorial, so I had plenty of time to grow a thick skin.

Spyral
01-03-2009, 13:17
Im also afraid of those "new codex" people who will jump on the IG bandwagon and make us all look bad. The people who will run nine tanks and the minimum troop choices.

Good luck capturing objectives... assuming that they only take a platoon and armoured fist thats 4 scoring units... kill them (not hard as its guard) and he cannot take objectives

Cane
01-03-2009, 14:56
This new guard codex is the main reason why I'm returning to 40k, finally the Imperial Guard will be represented decently on the tabletop.

And I can't wait to destroy Space Marines =D The Guard has always been the Imperium's main war machine after all.

Logarithm Udgaur
01-03-2009, 14:58
Being someone who plays with toy soldiers at age 30, I have pretty much stopped caring what other people think. If all else fails, you could always do the dance of sympathy.

Hellfury
01-03-2009, 15:16
Every new codex has its initial kneejerk reactions from people who think their army is nerfed because of what they see.

Take the bolter and chainsword forums for instance. There are quite a few people (read: idiots) who think that stormtroopers with a str3 ap3 hellgun is the end of the world and that they will never win a game because stormtroopers are now so OTT. :rolleyes:

Personally, I think that there is a lot to fear in the guard codex, and I am glad for that. I do think that guard can be and are competitive as they are now, but something new to spice things up is always welcome.

I want to see every army be able to enjoy playing with their dollies. Sadly its not always possible to please everyone, but people who understand that this is just a game will have more enjoyment derived from it than some nub end of a flesh stick trying to eek out some type of validation for their pathetic lives by taking it too seriously.

I look forward to the new challenge that the IG appear to present to the table.

Cane
01-03-2009, 15:37
You know what Guard players love the most about this codex? They can finally move in the movement phase without feeling guilty!

The Imperial Guard has sorely been lacking in tactical flexibility --- when your army's best strategy is to stand still and create firing lanes then it can get a bit boring and LAME. I'm glad the new codex writer realizes that all armies shouldn't lack mobility, especially a force that the Imperium uses as its main weapon.

Used Car Salesman
01-03-2009, 15:38
I personally don't think that the new Guard codex will be overpowered. Maybe some people will look at the codex now and see how some things have gotten better or cheaper and say to themselves, "that's really OP now" when in reality the original unit was overcosted/useless in the first place. Also, as someone said in here just a little bit earlier, there are a lot of units seemingly that will produce a knee jerk reaction of "that's cheesy," with the LR Punisher being the prime example, which if you actually look at it, is worse than a LRMBT against most things.
As for bandwagoners, I don't see it being an issue, besides the occasional vet whose always wanted to play Guard and decides that now would be a good time.
I really don't care if people call the new codex OP, after playing with a pretty mediocre one since 2nd edition, and new Guard players, welcome.

Bluto
01-03-2009, 16:38
Could it be a bit overpowered and/or cheesy? Sure. With a few exceptions, every new codex will have something that someone will find a way to exploit, or focus on one or two units that are the most effective. I doubt the entire army will be so overpowered that Guard will now be impossible to beat though.

And some people who flock to the newest army are going to start up a IG army just to play the newest uber army list, and play just long enough for the next Codex to hit.

That can't really be helped, and should not be too much of a concern to those of us who have played IG for years. We're still going to end up with a big platoon of basic old troops, even if there is a "better" way to play. Those treadheads are still going to take as many tanks as they can, and probably end up with one of every variant.

Legionary
01-03-2009, 16:50
I think that the new Guard codex is not going to be overpowered. The fluff is that the Guard are ultimately disposable soldiers, so I wouldn't expect them to become great in the new codex. What I would expect is that they'll become more competitive, and more tactically flexible.

Lungboy
01-03-2009, 16:50
There will be so much crying over Hellguns that Noah's Flood will look like a small puddle.

Lord_Crull
01-03-2009, 17:11
There will be so much crying over Hellguns that Noah's Flood will look like a small puddle.

Guard infantry even with AP3, will not be a problem, it's the tanks that worry me. The Russes and Chimera variants will be the real killers.

kultz
01-03-2009, 17:18
Heh...As much as I look at the upcoming codex with apprehension of the codex creep, I feel like that my opinion cannot matter due to the emotional arguments presented.

I have nothing against the Guard, and before someone throws a rock, I do not wish "MY SPESS MEHREN TO BEH TEH ROXXORS".

Yet, I just feel uneasy about the potentials of the new Imperial Guard army.

Is being neglected for many years actually a good reason to make the new book overpowered?

Yes, some would say, as they repeat the "Guard is soo underpowered and neglected you have no right to complain, NOOB" argument, and flog me for playing Space Marines.

No, others would say, "the new book is just fine, learn tactics you whiny SMURF PLAYER", as they dust off their Leman Russes and wipe me off the table, crediting their newfound ability to demolish enemies to their obviously overwhelming tactical brilliance.

So, am I scared? No, not at all. I don't think I'm actually allowed to be scared. Being the underclass of players, I do not believe I have the right to complain.

Johnnyfrej
01-03-2009, 17:53
Is being neglected for many years actually a good reason to make the new book overpowered?

Ask the people who wrote the new Ork Codex ;)



And I can't wait to destroy Space Marines =D The Guard has always been the Imperium's main war machine after all.
I was destroying Marines long before this new codex was announced :D

Personally I would laugh out loud if someone accused me of playing a "cheesy" or "overpowered" army with my Guard. I will explain to them in-depth as to how I have been playing them for three years with a rather inefficient codex and have no plans to stop regardless of how good the new codex is.

kultz
01-03-2009, 18:11
Ask the people who wrote the new Ork Codex


Hmm...Yes, now do you believe that Orks, by logic, not emotions, not sentiments of pity, have a right to have options that are overly effective, because they had a bad codex?

There is some sort of weird logical fallacy going on in this forum, where people use some sort of unreasonable emotional argument to justify abuse in the reverse direction.

I could go on, but I think there is a sensitive issue beyond the scope of this thread, this forum, or even Warhammer 40k here.

Edit: word choice change. Before someone stones me.

carldooley
01-03-2009, 18:19
Every new codex has its initial kneejerk reactions from people who think their army is nerfed because of what they see.

I agree wholeheartedly. If GW was to release a new codex for each race at the same time, this would be seriously curtailed, but that is unlikely. The only reason that anyone thinks that the newest codex is broken is because it is the newest one to be released!

don_mondo
01-03-2009, 18:21
It is this kind of post I find annoying. Fluff aside, each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

Riiiiight, keep telling yourself that. However, assuming the current IG codex was indeed playtested, it was playtested under 3rd Editon rules!


Im practically frakking my breeches.

Im picturing within a few months, as a guard player, I will soon face

whiny SMURFs complaining about how their lysander termie spam lists lost because my guardsmen were overpowered

Oh Emperor save the IG Codex from the stupidity of humanity!

Good lord, lasguns! :cheese:

Local Space Marine players here already complain about my IG beating their Lysander termie lists, with the current codex. One has already said that after the new codex comes out, our games will probably consist of him drawing me as an opponent, and shaking my hand to congratulate me on a victory. Then beer.

kultz
01-03-2009, 18:23
I would argue against the blanket statement that it's entirely knee-jerk.

There were times when the release was actually as broken as it sounded.

So I do believe there are reasons to be...apprehensive.

NightrawenII
01-03-2009, 18:35
There is some sort of weird logical fallacy going on in this forum, where people use some sort of unreasonable emotional argument to justify abuse in the reverse direction.

sigged.:evilgrin:

Used Car Salesman
01-03-2009, 19:14
I personally don't think that the new Guard codex should be "cheesy" or "OP" just because it was the opposite for a long time. No I am merely saying that people will the see the improvements made and say, " That's cheesy," when in reality it is just a lot better compared to the old 'dex.

Lord_Crull
01-03-2009, 19:49
Ask the people who wrote the new Ork Codex ;)


I was destroying Marines long before this new codex was announced :D

Personally I would laugh out loud if someone accused me of playing a "cheesy" or "overpowered" army with my Guard. I will explain to them in-depth as to how I have been playing them for three years with a rather inefficient codex and have no plans to stop regardless of how good the new codex is.

Guard are a very strong army at my local club. I have only won once aginst them and that was due to him rolling horribly. If I see my opponet place down 3 Banewolves and three Executioners at the start of the game I will smile and congradulate on his victory before packing up, because I have really no way to win. even if I took every anti-tank weapon that I could, it would barly be good enough to destroy all the tanks, leaving me to the mercy of the Infantry horde.

Warforger
01-03-2009, 22:10
Dude, 4 point Guardsmen! 4 PT GUARDSMEN! That is the only point value you need to know.



That's bad how? currently Guardsman are over costed, an Ork (I don't care if there OP'd) costs the same but better stat line and weaponary. Grots for example, have the best BS in the Ork army, but there 3 pts a piece, are they OP'd? No, there simply easy to kill. A Guardian is 2 pts more and way better then a Guardsman.

Finn
01-03-2009, 22:11
As a long time Guard player, I'm a bit wary of the seemingly incredible amount of options being thrown into this book. Different weapons for the Hellhound, sure - a buttload of different options for the Leman Russ? Those things are better suited in the IA books, to be honest. Specialized tanks deserve specialized rules. On the other hand, we have been playing with a bland codex for quite some time - in order to be competitive, certain things are sort of chosen for you. Drop Troops, Veterans and/or Grenadiers, Close Order Drill, Iron Discipline, etc. - it's been a long time since I haven't seen someone take all or some combination of these. That being said...I don't want the "average 40K-Joe" flavor of the Guardsmen to go away. This can happen in a number of different ways, not the least of which would be the dominance of the IG vehicle over the Guardsman in the new codex.

Heimlich
01-03-2009, 22:55
My answer to the IG will probably be drop pods....

Hicks
01-03-2009, 23:08
I'm not scared, but I don't think most marine players who would react like that either. If anything, I'll just be happy to now be able to use some cool units like ogryns and commissars without getting trashed.

tuebor
01-03-2009, 23:31
My answer to the IG will probably be drop pods....

I think that's going to be a popular option. I know I'll be very worried about a tac squad podding in and killing my commander + advisors at the beginning of the game.

Wolflord Havoc
01-03-2009, 23:34
The only thing I am worried about is the effect the changes to the units and army list will have on my existing IG Infantry Company.

1: Heavy weapon teams.

After many games in ed 4 and 5 where problems arose when a weapons team i.e 2 Guardsmen + weapon, on a large base, were hit with a template/blast weapon or an S6+ weapon that would cause instant death!

What happened? - Was one hit made or 2? Do both crew die to a single instant death hit? There were no rules to cover this - and so after many games where arguments arose and after finding many IG players having the same problems I modified all 27 heavy weapon teams in my army so that all heavy weapons were on a seperate base (or shoulder mounted in the case of the ML) and all guardsmen were each modelled on the normal 25mm bases. Happyness Reigned.

Now I hear that all heavy weapon teams are going to be based on a large 60mm base's with special rules treating them as 2 wound models! Damn it!

2: Veterans - I run with 3 Veteran Squads - 2 of these for effectiveness issues (read: ability to kill Space Marines and Big monsters) are 3 plas and 1 'tripod mounted weapon' (I left all Heavy Bolters/Autocannon/Lascannon loose). Now I hear that weapon options are going to change and from the sounds of it I will no longer be able to take 3 plasma in a squad and possbly only 1 Vet squad in many instances!

These 2 issues are really annoying as I have spent a lot of time, money and effort making the Company work just so.

As for the Changes to the Leman Russ - well it makes sense and its nice to see all teh tanks (with the exception it would appear of the LR Annialator)

As for the Punisher chucking out 20 shots (not to mention upto 9 HB shots and 3 Stubber shots) - this on average is 10 hits, so about 3 Marines killed per 'salvo' (perhaps 5 with the other weapons) and I expect the machine to cost almost as much as a Land Raider!

Orks will have more to complain about regarding this tank I am thinking!

Shangrila
01-03-2009, 23:44
Ive been bulding my guard army since early 06, if they call me cheesy ill call them an idiot.

From the looks of things all of our infantry is straight 3'sand unless we get 3 plasmas per squad no way were going to be justified as OP.

Our tanks need to be fixed, and itll be nice to have some diversity.(not to mention the fact i can USE my cool FW tanks i spent al that time and money on.)

trigger
01-03-2009, 23:50
A bit concerned over the new vulcan wielding S.heavy thing in WD (the thing can shoot twice ) its open topped , lumbering and 20 models can shoot from it ummm heavy bolter units please.

But it is about time the guard got there spot in the light ( i would have personaly prefured it to be more of a emfacis on infantry rather than tanks but hey il get over it)

Come Nov , evry thing will be back to normal , il have my new wolf codex and every ork,tau,nid,sm and there respective dogs will be moaning and bitching about it (just as Russ intended :D )

RichBlake
01-03-2009, 23:58
Actually, as a Guard player, as much as I worry about being called overpowered, I am more concerned with actually being overpowered! I hope that the new Codex doesn't have some uber unit that everyone has to have. My favorite thing about the Guard has always been that the effectiveness of the army is pretty much spread out, so if you lose one unit, the mediocrity of the whole army still continues forward!

Amen to that, the best bit about not having a lynch pin is that you don't have a lynch pin! Some lists revolve around certain units or tactics and if you bugger them up then the list fails. With Guard everything is "OK" and you don't rely on any one unit. This means there's no key unit.

I think that will change though, even though we have got by without the Order system at the moment it will become an important part of the Guard. This is why my Command Squad will be sitting safely in a Chimera all game :P



You mean Armored Company?

To be fair, that was ridiculously powerful, especially in 5th ed.




Do I find any of this troubling? No, I want a competitive codex. I am sort of tired of the stereotype of the Guard as sort of passive aggressive fluff nuts who take GW's savage beatings without a word of complaint before going to make it dinner.

Wait, we're not supposed to do that? :p

Guard can roll over most armies, the armies I'm having trouble beating at the moment are Daemons, Eldar and Space Marines. Wait a minute are those the three of the strongest codexes in the entire game? Oh yeah!

There's a Blood Angels player who beats me too, but he's a bloody good player and honestly I'd hate to see him with an updated codex ;)




Local Space Marine players here already complain about my IG beating their Lysander termie lists, with the current codex. One has already said that after the new codex comes out, our games will probably consist of him drawing me as an opponent, and shaking my hand to congratulate me on a victory. Then beer.

That's fine by me, means I can concentrate on "fun" games like Apocalypse and Necromunda :p

I like playing 40K but until the mission book comes out to add a bit of flavour I find myself being drawn towards stuff like Cities of Death, Apocalypse and the specialist games to add in some flavour.


Guard are a very strong army at my local club. I have only won once aginst them and that was due to him rolling horribly. If I see my opponet place down 3 Banewolves and three Executioners at the start of the game I will smile and congradulate on his victory before packing up, because I have really no way to win. even if I took every anti-tank weapon that I could, it would barly be good enough to destroy all the tanks, leaving me to the mercy of the Infantry horde.

Thats a bit of a pessimistic mind set!

Guard really aren't that hard, especially if you tailor your list to be anti-tank. Guard players tend to be good players, and good players can usually win with any army. I'm afraid having a rubbish codex and basically not being an army with 3+ saves makes you good :p

Seriously if anyone complains I'll just slap them. Two of my friends will be collecting Guard when it is released in May, which is a shame as I like being one of the only active Guard players. One was thinking of it for a while but the other really is only doing it for the rules. Doesn't matter though, I've played Guard for years, if we're using the same codex then the battlefield will be pretty much level.

Lungboy
02-03-2009, 00:13
I know I'll be very worried about a tac squad podding in and killing my commander + advisors at the beginning of the game.

Ally in a Daemonhunter Inquisitor with 2 Mystics and sit them near some heavy hitting vehicles.

tuebor
02-03-2009, 00:35
Ally in a Daemonhunter Inquisitor with 2 Mystics and sit them near some heavy hitting vehicles.

I don't really like using Inq allies if they do something I can't do with my own Codex. I don't mind when other people do it, I just don't like doing it myself.

I'll probably end up using a Chimera and some well spaced out mortar squads to give my command squad some breathing room.

Johnnyfrej
02-03-2009, 00:37
Hmm...Yes, now do you believe that Orks, by logic, not emotions, not sentiments of pity, have a right to have options that are overly effective, because they had a bad codex?

Ever heard of a little thing called "humor"? Surely you may of heard of something else called "sarcasm" :p

trigger
02-03-2009, 00:38
park a special weapons squad with demo charge near them . I know i think twice about drop podding near it

Lord_Crull
02-03-2009, 00:46
Thats a bit of a pessimistic mind set!

Guard really aren't that hard, especially if you tailor your list to be anti-tank. Guard players tend to be good players, and good players can usually win with any army. I'm afraid having a rubbish codex and basically not being an army with 3+ saves makes you good :p

Seriously if anyone complains I'll just slap them. Two of my friends will be collecting Guard when it is released in May, which is a shame as I like being one of the only active Guard players. One was thinking of it for a while but the other really is only doing it for the rules. Doesn't matter though, I've played Guard for years, if we're using the same codex then the battlefield will be pretty much level.

If people with a ''rubbish'' codex can destroy me then what will they do with 5 plasma cannon Leman Russes, 4pt Guardsmen and Banewolves?


Ive been bulding my guard army since early 06, if they call me cheesy ill call them an idiot.

From the looks of things all of our infantry is straight 3'sand unless we get 3 plasmas per squad no way were going to be justified as OP.



What about a Leman Russ with 5 plasma cannons? What about three? What about 3 tanks with Ap2 flamers? What about Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?

Lord_Crull
02-03-2009, 00:47
double post.

Warforger
02-03-2009, 00:52
Buy as many as they can and lose games?

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 00:56
The same as before, but faster....seriously, if Guard is one of your major problems, you need to take a look at either: a) your army list. b) your tactics c) your opponent's army list d) your opponent's hands. C and D apply if that opponent doesn't play well with other armies.

Warforger
02-03-2009, 01:01
Before my last game against them I was scared of Guard, now I love Guard, there so fun to play, especially with my Eldar (well my BA have a greater chance of beating them)

decker_cky
02-03-2009, 01:05
If people with a ''rubbish'' codex can destroy me then what will they do with 5 plasma cannon Leman Russes, 4pt Guardsmen and Banewolves?

I doubt it'll be so bad. If the 5 plasma cannon executioners are available, they'll likely be up in the landraider price range. Three of those and 3 banewolfs and there won't be as much infantry as you're worrying.

Johnnyfrej
02-03-2009, 01:13
If people with a ''rubbish'' codex can destroy me then what will they do with 5 plasma cannon Leman Russes, 4pt Guardsmen and Banewolves?
You have Lascannons for a reason.


What about a Leman Russ with 5 plasma cannons? What about three? What about 3 tanks with Ap2 flamers? What about Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?

For all we know the Executioner could cost almost 200 points with Lascannon and Plasma Sponsons (assuming it can take Plasma Sponsons). You could almost get a Land Raider for that price.

As for the AP2 flamers the Banewolf has to be well within assault range so if you hadn't killed it before then first it is your own fault (its only Armor 12) and second you can Melta/Powerfist it your next turn.

I don't think they will add the Deathstike but if they do I'd imagine it would be on upwords of 300+ points and with 0-1 limits. Thats a lot to spend for a once a game ability that, admitally, would kill anything it hits.

You people worring about the new IG need to stop. Everything is all speculation and anything we already know might not be so powerful by having a high cost or other such restrictions.

Shangrila
02-03-2009, 01:40
If people with a ''rubbish'' codex can destroy me then what will they do with 5 plasma cannon Leman Russes, 4pt Guardsmen and Banewolves?

What about a Leman Russ with 5 plasma cannons? What about three? What about 3 tanks with Ap2 flamers? What about Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?

I wouldnt say my codex is rubbish, although advisors sure are. I want to it be fluffy. able to take advisors and a masse of infatry supported by armor the way guards supposed to be. if you fight someone who runs 3, 5 plasma cannon armed LRs then there the same as a nob biker spammer or anyone else who doesnt have any skill.(besides thats what cover saves are for!)

I like to win but only if i have to work for the victory...Ill handicap myself if you suck at the game to make it fun. Sinces thats the hole point in my spending umpteen hundreds of dollars on this game, to have FUN.

But people are poor sports already about my valkyrie so ill be used to it once its a legal unit.

zoodog
02-03-2009, 01:43
I think it will happen, I feel like GW is currently trying to shift the game to make horde armies more so and given their piecemeal approach it results in some balance issues.

There also though seemingly making some things more elite and I fully expect guard players to complain about how much their paying for plasma in some places. With the general rise in AP2 cost I thought I saw the comment of around 180 for a russ with HBs I would fully expect a executioner with PC to be significantly more then 200.

Finn
02-03-2009, 06:06
1: Heavy weapon teams.

After many games in ed 4 and 5 where problems arose when a weapons team i.e 2 Guardsmen + weapon, on a large base, were hit with a template/blast weapon or an S6+ weapon that would cause instant death!

What happened? - Was one hit made or 2? Do both crew die to a single instant death hit? There were no rules to cover this - and so after many games where arguments arose and after finding many IG players having the same problems I modified all 27 heavy weapon teams in my army so that all heavy weapons were on a seperate base (or shoulder mounted in the case of the ML) and all guardsmen were each modelled on the normal 25mm bases. Happyness Reigned.

Have you read the FAQ? It says to treat the large base as two models based together. So in essence - two hits on two separate guys who just happen to share a base. Nowhere did it say they became a two wound entity (in fact, it didn't even tell you that you had to use the large bases, just form a weapons team) and therefore I don't quite understand how you (or someone you played) came up with Instant Death for them :wtf:

fluffstalker
02-03-2009, 06:12
"I wouldnt say my codex is rubbish, although advisors sure are. I want to it be fluffy. able to take advisors and a masse of infatry supported by armor the way guards supposed to be. if you fight someone who runs 3, 5 plasma cannon armed LRs then there the same as a nob biker spammer or anyone else who doesnt have any skill.(besides thats what cover saves are for!)" posted by shang.

Yes, thats the way I envision guard too, and how I'll play them.

And I started this thread not to complain about the guard codex, but, and this is going to sound so wierd, to complain about the complainers, in the hope that at least in this small corner of the internet we can impose some intelligence on future complainers in an attempt to stop them complaining. About the Guard Codex. :P

Though Ive noticed some great replies from Johnny, decker and Warforge, raising the issue of points costs - itll be hard to field a good horde of guardsmen while buying those expensive tanks in droves, which will cripple you if your opponent has a lot of AT weaponry.

All in all I was just raising the worry about the hordes of bandwagon jumpers, WAAC players and worst of all the cheese callers, because if any codex or army is least deserving of such abuse it His Majesty's Imperial Guard. And perhaps Dark Eldar :P.

decker_cky
02-03-2009, 07:38
For all we know the Executioner could cost almost 200 points with Lascannon and Plasma Sponsons (assuming it can take Plasma Sponsons). You could almost get a Land Raider for that price.

I think you're too low on that. Let's assume the executioner turret is costed the same as the battlecannon, and that the chassis is 10 pts more for rear armour 11 like the difference between demos and LRBT now. That puts us at 160 pts without sponsons. Heavy bolter sponsons are 30 pts in the rumours, but plasma cannon should cost much more. If we assume 60 pts (they are that much better than the HB), then you're looking at a tank costing 220 pts. But the executioner turret could easily be more expensive. As could the sponsons.

I think the executioner will be worth it since it'll be ace against all infantry (better against heavy) and it'll be one of the best tanks against monstrous creatures (5 S7 AP2 templates means 5 good chances to cause a wound). But I think we'll be paying for every bit of that ability.


All in all I was just raising the worry about the hordes of bandwagon jumpers, WAAC players and worst of all the cheese callers, because if any codex or army is least deserving of such abuse it His Majesty's Imperial Guard. And perhaps Dark Eldar :P.

Guard will be a new codex and get a big improvement so people will call it cheese. That's how it works. Don't sweat it, just don't take those overpowered builds and play army the way it was meant to be; send wave after wave of your troops to their deaths.

Korras
02-03-2009, 08:31
Guard will be a new codex and get a big improvement so people will call it cheese. That's how it works. Don't sweat it, just don't take those overpowered builds and play army the way it was meant to be; send wave after wave of your troops to their deaths.
as far as I remember, EVERY codex gets that when released. after a while, (most) people learn to adapt, and then it is not so scary anymore.

of course, some people never learn. I know some who refuse to play against Necrons, because Necrons are apparently still overpowered.

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 13:34
My local Tau opponent is already whining about the firepower he's going to have to go up against with the new codex. I suspect we will see a lot of it across the community very soon.

My Tau are heading head long towards Retirement. They just get worse and worse with each Codex released. All because Gw had absolutely no brain when they made the Tau Codex. The Tau have no punch and are as much as 50 percent over cost on some units in the codex with an average of 25 percent over cost.

I might be playing Crons and Guard exclusively. Just as well. I don't know if I could juggle three "A List" armies (My Bts don't count for an army to me. As the -large- game for them is 1k points).

Personally I'm looking forward to having one army that isn't total crap in 5e.

Hellfury
02-03-2009, 14:06
I would argue against the blanket statement that it's entirely knee-jerk.

There were times when the release was actually as broken as it sounded.

So I do believe there are reasons to be...apprehensive.

I would argue that the majority of the posts on this subject crying about IG are blanket knee-jerk reactions.

Based on the sole fact that none of us have even seen the codex yet, only guessing to a marginal degree about its efficacy.

Ofcourse there are reasons to be apprehensive. Both for and against the IG codex, or any new codex for that matter.

Simple fact is, until we see quite a bit more info, its going to be really tough to see merit in people crying about the IG.

Its far more productive to plan on how to beat them than it is to yell the sky is falling.

a_typical_hero
02-03-2009, 14:07
I'm not scared at all.
I mean the new codex is coming soon and we can't do much to change its rules now.

No matter what it will bring, I'm happy for all the IG players to have a codex full of diversity. Because that is somethin both sides of the gaming table will enjoy - to be able to field many different armies and not having to face the same list year over year again.

Karnstein
02-03-2009, 14:19
My Tau are heading head long towards Retirement. They just get worse and worse with each Codex released. All because Gw had absolutely no brain when they made the Tau Codex. The Tau have no punch and are as much as 50 percent over cost on some units in the codex with an average of 25 percent over cost.

If GW botched that hard with the last tau dex, why did one the best german 40k player managed to win tournaments with tau on a regular basis back in ed4?

Sure, the new TLOS rules are bad for tau...but I don't think your knee-jerk reaction is justified. Nobody here knows the details of the upcoming IG dex. We don't know the costs, we don't know the special rules and we don't know the options.

Everybody is wailing "OMFG 5 blast plasma cannons on a LR". Come on folks...the Executioner is a FW modell with normal access to HB sponsons. (read IA 1) Unless GW changes the sponson options, it won't field 5 blast shots and the only indication for that is the AV11 rear. But an indication isn't a proof... so calm down and wait until GW a) releases the dex or b) print his profil in a WD.

Lord Solar Plexus
02-03-2009, 14:23
Im also afraid of those "new codex" people who will jump on the IG bandwagon and make us all look bad. The people who will run nine tanks and the minimum troop choices.

1. What is that minimum though? I'm not sure if it is a good idea to take only the legal minimum of troops with IG, nine tanks or not. They are neither excellent last turn objective capturers such as Eldar jetbikes nor resilient like MEQ's.

2. You are assuming that IG troops will not perform well but that tanks will. I don't think that will be the case. Everything becomes worth taking if the price is right.


It is this kind of post I find annoying. Fluff aside, each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

Annoying or not, it is the simple truth. Some codices/builds are stronger than others, and there is definitively no serious playtesting, or it would show. There are always codices which dominate the tourney scene, and then there is the rest. It's the exact same situation in Fantasy, too.

I believe that the playtesting is run with some of the (extremely uncompetetive forces) featured in WD articles. They take one of each and that's about it.

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 14:25
If GW botched that hard with the last tau dex, why did one the best german 40k player managed to win tournaments with tau on a regular basis back in ed4?

Sure, the new TLOS rules are bad for tau...but I don't think your knee-jerk reaction is justified. Nobody here knows the details of the upcoming IG dex. We don't know the costs, we don't know the special rules and we don't know the options.

Everybody is wailing "OMFG 5 blast plasma cannons on a LR". Come on folks...the Executioner is a FW modell with normal access to HB sponsons. (read IA 1) Unless GW changes the sponson options, it won't field 5 blast shots and the only indication for that is the AV11 rear. But an indication isn't a proof... so calm down and wait until GW a) releases the dex or b) print his profil in a WD.


Notice what you said. Best player. And one. In the same little snippet no less. And back in 4ed. Where Tau in the hands of a good player are pretty competitive. Now they are easily at the bottom of the ladder. (Even my Necrons make the Tau weep in agony)

They were overpriced then, as they did not compete against, nor match Eldar pt cost to efficiency wise, nor pack their sheer versatility, and do not have the pts efficiency of DA either. They've always been Craptastic In Assault. And given the new and improved Happy Appy Assault Rules, thus far I might as well have not even taken the Field in 5e with my Tau. I should have left them collecting dust on the shelf so I could have fond memories of them until 6e when they get their new codex.

I wasn't even thinking of the Plas Tanks honestly, I'm a guard mini collector soon to be turned guard gamer. I didn't field them because of how pants their army was, now that they look to be -on par- with the other 5es (and better than my Crons who still take the field) I'll be using them. Actually they'll probably replace my Tau completely courtesy of the Valkyrie and new Stormtroopers.

To say nothing of these rumored Orders powers.

Lord_Crull
02-03-2009, 14:27
You have Lascannons for a reason.





I take as many as I can and I barely manage to kill three russes, never mind the mass of armor that the new codex can have, never mind that Russ side armor got increased to 13.

Solar_Eclipse
02-03-2009, 14:44
What about a Leman Russ with 5 plasma cannons? What about three? What about 3 tanks with Ap2 flamers? What about Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?

Lets consider that a Russ is rumoured to be 150 points with Sponson heavy bolters costing 30 points. If thats 2 heavy bolters, imagine how much 2 plasma cannons would cost? Thats 250 points right there.

3 tanks with AP2 flamers? That'd be horrible.

The Banewolf is AP3

Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?! Wow! That'd be awesome! Too bad the Manticore has S10 Ap4 D3 large blast templates only 4 times a game.



I take as many as I can and I barely manage to kill three russes, never mind the mass of armor that the new codex can have, never mind that Russ side armor got increased to 13.

then get some meltaguns and krak grenades and deal with tanks the easy way.

Pyriel
02-03-2009, 14:44
guys i am worrying fr an entirely different reason.
the current 5t-ed codeci (the ones that are supposed to be viable) are:
1: orks (obviously viable if not overpowered)
2: eldar(viable too)
3: blood angels (viable most leasts at least)
4: dark angels (aerage at best)
5: daemons(very viable)
6: marines: guys marines are right there with the dark angels, having cheaper choices overall and better equipment but no deathwing/ravenwing/ good special rules.
up to now space marines seem to SUFFER in tournaments as the codex is *powerful but balanced* and doesnt seem to have some powergaming combo as most others do.
BA have corbulo/dante, orks have biker nobz, eldar have holofields/serpentfields, daemons have bloodcrusher spam with paguebearers as cheap/tough troops etc.

the result of this is that marines have one of the least powerful of the previously mentioned codeci and have ranked at tourneys as such. If the next codeci keep coming out and are not as balanced as marines, then marines will suffer from power creep in... just 1-2 years.other armies that i didnt mention cause they dont have an updated codex might suffer too but at least they might get updated sooner. this could end badly...

Cane
02-03-2009, 14:45
If only there was an updated Armored Company to go with this new codex. =D

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 14:45
Marines rank where they do in Tournament because everyone builds their lists to specifically kill them. It's also one of the reasons Orks are so powerful, because people build to slaughter Marines.

Lord Solar Plexus
02-03-2009, 15:08
Guard are a very strong army at my local club. I have only won once aginst them and that was due to him rolling horribly. If I see my opponet place down 3 Banewolves and three Executioners at the start of the game I will smile and congradulate on his victory before packing up, because I have really no way to win.

Except for killing his soft, fragile scoring units while capturing the objectives you have sensibly placed in cover where you can then go to ground. Or except for focussing on the same soft, fragile infantry models that still give up easy kill points. Or by simply shaking those tanks for a while - they're no good when they can't shoot, right? - or immobilizing the shorter-ranged versions.


My answer to the IG will probably be drop pods....

My answer to drop pods will probably be deep striking Valkyries...with me getting a bonus for reserve rolls, and you getting a malus.



1: Heavy weapon teams.

What happened? ...There were no rules to cover this


Of course there were rules. Just check the FAQ, it's sometimes actually helpful.



What about a Leman Russ with 5 plasma cannons? What about three? What about 3 tanks with Ap2 flamers? What about Strength 10 AP2 D3 Large blast templates?

I don't know, what about it? One, we don't know whether the Executioner will be able to have 5 PC. Seriously, just shake or stun them. Secondly, the leaked summary says AP 3 flamers, range 'template'. That's pretty easily avoided methinks. Thirdly, what about heavy flamers, stormbolters, bolters, heavy bolters, fast multimeltas, powerfists...there's no way I could ever stand up against this standard Marine kit one would think. Or perhaps we can? [/sarcasm]

Raw data never tells the whole story.



They've always been Craptastic In Assault. And given the new and improved Happy Appy Assault Rules, thus far I might as well have not even taken the Field in 5e with my Tau. I should have left them collecting dust on the shelf so I could have fond memories of them until 6e when they get their new codex.


First and foremost, I would appreciate if you stopped whinging rather sooner than later. It is getting a bit extreme. It is even more extreme when one considers the absurdity in what you say: You complain about the assault rules when they actually benefit you. As a shooty army, you want your units to leg it at the earliest possible moment, in both 4th and 5th. That was the reason why taking defensive grenades wasn't a good idea, ever. Now you are free to shoot them again.

As you say, Tau would lose CC either way. The negative modifiers don't hurt them at all. The new consolidation rules help them tons.

Battle-Brother Wags
02-03-2009, 15:24
I take as many as I can and I barely manage to kill three russes, never mind the mass of armor that the new codex can have, never mind that Russ side armor got increased to 13.

Unless you're playing really high point games, I doubt you'll see many more tanks than you currently would. Just because there are a ton of OPTIONS in the codex doesn't mean you're going to see a ton (figuratively) of tanks on the tabletop. For example, if the squadron rule is correct for LRBTs, I dont' see how that is going to increase the number of tanks I can field unless you have the points to begin with. For example, in a 1k game, since I don't play heavy mech lists, I can afford to have the troops I want and 2 LRBTs. Put them in a squadron or consider them a single FO slot or not, its still only 2 tanks. And really, even that example is lacking in the numbers of infantry I'd like to have, but if I want the tanks, I have to take out infantry.

The point being that I think people that go bonkers over all the tanks and take as many as they can fit will likely be shooting themselves in the foot not having enough troops. And there are just way too many ways to kill tanks to put all your eggs in that basket, especially because for IG troopers to be effective, you have to have a ton of them. There are too many ways to get to side and rear armor to rely solely on tanks, and that is the only way you'd be able to field 5 HS tanks and your other HH variants or whatever. It all balances out.

Karnstein
02-03-2009, 15:28
Marines rank where they do in Tournament because everyone builds their lists to specifically kill them. It's also one of the reasons Orks are so powerful, because people build to slaughter Marines.

Really? And I thought those times were gone, where eldar could field an abusive amount of cheap heavy 3 starcannons and CSM could field las-plas. [/sarcasm off]

Eldar are not build against SM anymore. They are build against tank, which leads a huge amount of S6 weapons, combined with some dragons. I would rate that an "all comers" list.

SM are not build against other SM... or are the majority of those lists on warseer 3x10 sternguard squads with kantor as a HQ?

CSM looks like the are build against SM, but that isn't true either. People don't take Obli+lash because they need to kill tons of SMurfs, they take Lash because it is a nobrainer against non-vehicle list (and SM+CSM rank supreme on usefull and cheap transports btw) and oblis because they are versatile as hell.

That "OMFG, we SM players are t3h best around t3h world, but we don't win 'cause all people tool their list against us" argument is getting old, esp. since Ed5 favors quantity (number of shots) over quality (low AP).

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 15:30
Really? And I thought those times were gone, where eldar could field an abusive amount of cheap heavy 3 starcannons and CSM could field las-plas. [/sarcasm off]

Eldar are not build against SM anymore. They are build against tank, which leads a huge amount of S6 weapons, combined with some dragons. I would rate that an "all comers" list.

SM are not build against other SM... or are the majority of those lists on warseer 3x10 sternguard squads with kantor as a HQ?

CSM looks like the are build against SM, but that isn't true either. People don't take Obli+lash because they need to kill tons of SMurfs, they take Lash because it is a nobrainer against non-vehicle list (and SM+CSM rank supreme on usefull and cheap transports btw) and oblis because they are versatile as hell.

That "OMFG, we SM players are t3h best around t3h world, but we don't win 'cause all people tool their list against us" argument is getting old, esp. since Ed5 favors quantity (number of shots) over quality (low AP).

What kills tanks kills marines. And thus is an "all comers list"

It's actually a pretty good rule of thumb what kills Marines kills pretty much everything else but Orks effectively.

Karnstein
02-03-2009, 15:47
Lol...

light tanks are killed by S6 weapons, if we talk about eldar for example. I wouldn't rate S6 weapons as a dedicated MEQ counter, unless we talk about S*C and nobody uses them in ed5.

Best weapons against heavy tanks are m-guns and MM. Nobody fields LC anymore, unless they run a LR with SS/TH term (wait, those are SM!...SM tooled against SM?!?) or oblis, which aren't picked because the LC is such a great weapon.

Or railguns if we talk about tau... shooting RG shots on normal SM sounds rather silly to me, unless the SM plays an all-inf list.

Eldar don't field MM...they field meltagun wielding dragons and I don't see people hosing them on a) SS/TH terms (which are SM) and b) normal tacs. SM field MM...but which SM/DA/BA player would fire his attack bike/speeder mounted MM into SM. Esp. since the target will very likely get a 4+ cover save thanks to ed5.

Do the math:

m-gun against SM in cover: 5/6 wound, 1/2 save...5/12
h-bolter against SM in cover: 2/3 wound, 1/3 save...x3= 2/3

fear the mighty melta, the weapon of doom for each and every SMurf...

EDIT:

Oh and melta guns are fabulous weapons...they even work on nobs too..the other orks are killed quite well with h-bolters, flamers (which are cheap for SM and maybe IG too), eldar S6 weapons...

Frontier
02-03-2009, 16:51
::Sigh::

I am looking forward to the Guard being updated, and I don't even play the army. They've always had loads of guns, but they are by no means intractable. It should be a challenge, and FUN.

volair
02-03-2009, 16:52
Imperial Guard certainly need to become better; Their current codex is terrible in both external and internal balance.

Awilla the Hun
02-03-2009, 17:27
I hope they don't force us to take loads of tanks along just to stand a chance.

Yes, my current army contains some tanks (Chimera, Hellhound, Demolisher.) But I have never thought of myself as a so called "treadhead". By 5th Ed, my army has moved out of stand and fire, and into something approaching combined arms, that utilises proper "counter attack" units (officers, rough riders) rather than men with their bayonets. I have always thought of infantry (and, to a lesser extent, what I call "horse"-mobile infantry, in Chimera or on Horseback) as the core. I don't want to find every cool gun on the list requiring sets of tracks to use it.

Oh, and I don't know which idiot removed doctrines, but they will recieve a tape measure and a Hardened Fighting improved bayonet that I was forced to give up. In their own personal "eye of terror".

And I would hate the army to be overpowered. I've spent too long mentally complaining to get it out of my system now!

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 17:32
Doctrines are gone for good reason.

Sacrifice everything to get almost nothing for benefit.

Those are terrible Subsystem ideas.

As long as you can still pull off the Iconic worlds without Doctrines so much the better.

jason_sation
02-03-2009, 17:33
I hope they don't force us to take loads of tanks along just to stand a chance.

Yes, my current army contains some tanks (Chimera, Hellhound, Demolisher.) But I have never thought of myself as a so called "treadhead". By 5th Ed, my army has moved out of stand and fire, and into something approaching combined arms, that utilises proper "counter attack" units (officers, rough riders) rather than men with their bayonets. I have always thought of infantry (and, to a lesser extent, what I call "horse"-mobile infantry, in Chimera or on Horseback) as the core. I don't want to find every cool gun on the list requiring sets of tracks to use it.

Oh, and I don't know which idiot removed doctrines, but they will recieve a tape measure and a Hardened Fighting improved bayonet that I was forced to give up. In their own personal "eye of terror".

And I would hate the army to be overpowered. I've spent too long mentally complaining to get it out of my system now!

Yeah, I play nothing bigger than 1000-1500 pts games, and I like to have more men than tanks in my list. I mean i really think the tanks are cool, but I don't like my army having the tanks do all the work. I do wonder if there will be a prevelance of "Tankzilla" lists for the first few months. I don't know for certain, but it may be cheaper money wise to get 4 tanks in every list and not spend those points on infantry (which sound like they'll be 22 bucks a squad?) I guess until we see points though, no sense in worrying about it.

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 18:34
Imperial Guard certainly need to become better; Their current codex is terrible in both external and internal balance.


Typical Pete Haines codex. I am so glad he's not working for GW anymore, since I had to play with two of them...the underpowered IG codex that consists half of overpriced stuff and half of useless stuff, and Chaos 3.5, AKA Codex Iron Warriors (I play DeathGuard, though, and was therefore one of those people who had the short end of the stick, ie everybody who didn't play IW or all stealth Night Lords or Slaaneshi DPs).

Vepr
02-03-2009, 18:58
I am not going to freak out until I can play more than a few games against the new IG. I will admit I am a little worried because my main army is Nids and I don't run Nidzilla. I usually only run two fexes and a Tyrant so if heavy armor lists become the order of the day it will probably force me into more MC's to compete. Either way I say good for IG it will be interesting to see how they play.

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 18:59
Typical Pete Haines codex. I am so glad he's not working for GW anymore, since I had to play with two of them...the underpowered IG codex that consists half of overpriced stuff and half of useless stuff, and Chaos 3.5, AKA Codex Iron Warriors (I play DeathGuard, though, and was therefore one of those people who had the short end of the stick, ie everybody who didn't play IW or all stealth Night Lords or Slaaneshi DPs).

Glad they got rid of him too. "But it's so characterful!" I've come to associate that phrase with Badly Broken. On either end of the scale thanks to those two books.

jfrazell
02-03-2009, 19:04
If this is what scares you life is going to give you a very rude awakening. :cries:

Vaktathi
02-03-2009, 19:10
Typical Pete Haines codex. I am so glad he's not working for GW anymore, since I had to play with two of them...the underpowered IG codex that consists half of overpriced stuff and half of useless stuff


Glad they got rid of him too. "But it's so characterful!" I've come to associate that phrase with Badly Broken. On either end of the scale thanks to those two books.

I rather like Pete Haines direction with the books, they offered a huge variety of choices and possibilities. I really liked that, which is probably why my first two armies were IG followed shortly by CSM.

The problem was he never took a step back and actually looked at how they played. If he had he would have realized that free aspiring aspiring champions for CSM units and vet skills didn't really have any downside to their supposed "drawbacks", and the IW list, while I think the idea behind it, was simply overboard in so many ways. On the other hand, the IG codex got all sorts of cool abilities and potential army builds. the IG codex has more potential for variation than any other current army. Building one guard army can be about as different from building another IG army as building a CSM list is from a Necron list. But he flubbed the points costs, making everything far too expensive in some things (heavy weapons, carapace, etc), other things drastically undercosted or simply no brainers (close order drill, Drop Troops, etc), and many others simply redundant (ID+DH compared to Chem Inhalers, at least under 3rd and 4th)





and Chaos 3.5, AKA Codex Iron Warriors (I play DeathGuard, though, and was therefore one of those people who had the short end of the stick, ie everybody who didn't play IW or all stealth Night Lords or Slaaneshi DPs).

Oh, I'd disagree about 3.5 DG, all infiltrating melta/flamer toting T5 fearless units? They could be made just as bad as anything else in the book. Those Vet skills, free champions, and variable squad sizes made all the difference.

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 19:22
I'd say that the DG was the 2nd best real cult, yep. TS were worse, WE were really bad. EC daemon bombs were one of the best builds in the codex. Most undivided legions were just better than the 3 cults that are not Slaanesh, though.
I had some success with my DG, sure - actually more success than nowadays.

Still, the codex design was deeply flawed in both IG and CSM. Loads of crap vs a few no-brainers, and in the IG part, those nobrainers are actually needed to play successfully at all. When was the last time somebody played a non-doctrine IG list? There's no reason to do this...it will always be worse than a doctrine list that already isn't strong, and most of the restricted units are so crappy that nobody wants to spend a point for themj except stormtroopers (as grenadiers mostly) and rough riders. He'd better not restricted anything, maybe that way not all IG armies would have looked the same on a competitive level...(plasma spam drop troops....).

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 20:06
Well I'm told IG will be able to nuke your army, its not very accurate, but sounds a bit of a fun killer.

Captain Micha
02-03-2009, 20:14
Well I'm told IG will be able to nuke your army, its not very accurate, but sounds a bit of a fun killer.

Ig's isn't as good as the Sm's Orbital Bombardment though. Just some food for thought.

electricblooz
02-03-2009, 20:35
Ig's isn't as good as the Sm's Orbital Bombardment though. Just some food for thought.

I believe he's talking about the deathstrike missle - which, IF it fires, has the potential to be S10 ap1 !12"! diameter blast. That is to say, take the big Apoc blast and add an inch all the way around....

and that's in addition to the orbital bombardment the IG get through the Fleet Liason officer and the d3 Earthshakers we get through the arty officer and....

On the whole, I suspect the IG will finally play the way they were supposed to play

SPYDER68
02-03-2009, 20:41
I believe he's talking about the deathstrike missle - which, IF it fires, has the potential to be S10 ap1 !12"! diameter blast. That is to say, take the big Apoc blast and add an inch all the way around....

and that's in addition to the orbital bombardment the IG get through the Fleet Liason officer and the d3 Earthshakers we get through the arty officer and....

On the whole, I suspect the IG will finally play the way they were supposed to play

Its kinda hard to believe this will be in the book, wel just haft to wait and see what happens.

SPYDER68
02-03-2009, 20:43
Answer to guard wont be drop pods. If drop pods get around alot..

Most IG will just take an Inq Lord w/retinue and set a demolisher beside them and light up every unit that drops in close.

Can even have 1 lord then an elite inq with duel mystics :P

Free pie plates at deep striking units.. mmm, more the better!

Bunnahabhain
02-03-2009, 21:11
I'm hoping for the book to look like the ork one in terms of options and points costs, but without the Nob bikers, and the big meks KFF.

From what we've seen of the rules, most options look potentially useful assuming the points costs are right

I want basic guardsmen to be the only no-brainer of the book, as just about every guard army should be based round them, with all the options, in terms of weapons, armour, deployment styles, etc for them being viable. Hopefully basic sister of battle or Dire Avenger good, not Ork Boy somewhat under-costed good.

SPYDER68
02-03-2009, 21:13
Im just hoping i can do a guard swarm with lots of heavy tank artillary backup..

mmm 9x bassies behind a swarm of guard...

Vaktathi
02-03-2009, 21:19
Im just hoping i can do a guard swarm with lots of heavy tank artillary backup..

mmm 9x bassies behind a swarm of guard...

I don't think there's been anything referencing Bassies coming in squadrons.

Although you can take (if you want to use FW units) 9 heavy mortars as 3 elites choices with IA:5

SPYDER68
02-03-2009, 21:26
I don't think there's been anything referencing Bassies coming in squadrons.

Although you can take (if you want to use FW units) 9 heavy mortars as 3 elites choices with IA:5

I can dream :p lol

If the guard unit is cheaper, ill be able to take some cheap mortar squads unlike now i cant bring myself to spend that much on them.

in reality if bassies are only non squadren (prolly wont know for sure till book is here) most i would take is 2 so id haft room for the Av14 tanks to draw fire, and games with lack of cover 9x bassies wouldnt do so hot.


as for IA books, its not used or allowed around here unless playing Apoc, which we dont play.

don_mondo
02-03-2009, 22:42
Answer to guard wont be drop pods. If drop pods get around alot..

Most IG will just take an Inq Lord w/retinue and set a demolisher beside them and light up every unit that drops in close.

Can even have 1 lord then an elite inq with duel mystics :P

Free pie plates at deep striking units.. mmm, more the better!

Nahhh, use the Executioner. Three (maybe up to 5) Plasma Cannon shots..................

MrGiggles
02-03-2009, 23:04
Don't worry folks, I'm sure people will be back to complaining about Orks soon enough.

Seriously though, I rather like the way the newer dexes have shaken out. Orks are....well....Orky. Demons are random but scary. Space Marines are the elite surgical strike folks. Guard should be the baseline army which the Imperium sends to do most of the mundane stuff like recapture a planet, fight off Orks or Tyranids, that sort of thing. I suppose we'll see what happens when the book actually comes out, but it looks as though there are some potent units in the book and a good deal of variety for players.

Devil Tree
02-03-2009, 23:36
Nahhh, use the Executioner. Three (maybe up to 5) Plasma Cannon shots..................

I agree that the Executioner will be devastating against things like Terminators. But besides that, how much more damage will it do to regular SMís than a Battle Cannon? From the looks of it, all those shots will use the 3Ē blast template and all have the chance of scattering. Iím sure it will also be really expensive points wise, meaning you will have to make sacrifices for it.

Not to mention it wonít be as good against all armies. A regular Russ with a squad of Guardsmen would be a lot better against a horde of Orks, IG or Nids.


On a side note, whatís so scary about Nob Bikers? I play IG and Orks and I never saw anything that great about them. At 45 points minimum, they always seemed to be a little too expensive for what they could do. For the same price, I could get 7 Ork Boyz and 1 Grot. :confused:

SPYDER68
02-03-2009, 23:38
Bikes + painboy + warboss + boss pole = fast unit of death.

ReveredChaplainDrake
02-03-2009, 23:53
I'm getting slightly excited by the IG coming out. Based on what I've heard, IG will basically do to Orks what Space Marines did to Daemons, but they'll only be meh against normal armies. For once, I want Ork players to moan and groan about an army they can't beat no matter how hard they try. While I don't actually play IG, my Tyranids would greatly enjoy the schadenfreude as the Orks get a taste of their own medicine. :p

What I'm worried about is the IG treadhead list. Not so much because it's unbeatable, but because of the added strain it puts on the "balanced" list. Orks are extreme horde, meaning you need extreme means to deal with an extreme horde list on every list you make. But Nidzilla are extreme monsters, thus meaning you need extreme anti-monster in any list you make. Then Guard come along and be the extreme vehicle army. If you even have the points left to do it efficiently, a "balanced" list will need to be able to handle 150 Orks, 8 Monstrous Creatures, and 9 Leman Russes. When the balanced list stops being the king list for each codex, the entire game falls into rock-paper-scissor-itis.

Bunnahabhain
02-03-2009, 23:59
I agree that the Executioner will be devastating against things like Terminators. But besides that, how much more damage will it do to regular SMís than a Battle Cannon? From the looks of it, all those shots will use the 3Ē blast template and all have the chance of scattering. Iím sure it will also be really expensive points wise, meaning you will have to make sacrifices for it.

Not to mention it wonít be as good against all armies. A regular Russ with a squad of Guardsmen would be a lot better against a horde of Orks, IG or Nids.


On a side note, whatís so scary about Nob Bikers? I play IG and Orks and I never saw anything that great about them. At 45 points minimum, they always seemed to be a little too expensive for what they could do. For the same price, I could get 7 Ork Boyz and 1 Grot. :confused:

Lots of threads complaining about them, but the main points are.

Warboss makes them troops.
Painboy gives the feel no pain
Bikes give them huge threat range, and the turbo-boost cover save
Reasonable normal save and toughness
Wargear options make each model unique, so would allocation games can be played.
Enough power claws to kill anything in CC.

You have to hit and wound them, then beat an armour or cover save, and then FNP, and then the wound allocation system to kill one. If you kill the painboy, or use S8 + weapons ( fire dragons or heavy ordnance are the best options), you ignore some of these, so only have to hit, wound, and beat the cover save....

Close combat isn't a good idea, as most of the things that can face them on reasonable terms( couple of CC carnifixes or writhlords, TH/SS termis) are too slow to catch them.

They're not unbeatable, and are very expensive, but they are very hard to stop, can kill anything, and a scoring unit.

trigger
02-03-2009, 23:59
@ captain micha , sorry but if your doing that bad with TAU you should re think your list bud , tau are bloody great.

Back on topic ,

I agree that tanks should not be the emphasis in the guard , and i dont think it will , you are still not going to have that many in a 2000pt list. Il still give um a run with any of my armys.

Devil Tree
03-03-2009, 00:10
Bikes + painboy + warboss + boss pole = fast unit of death = 270 points for 4 bikes without any upgrades at all. :wtf:

Iíll grant you, itís an interesting Death Star, but nothing that wonít evaporate under heavy fire. It's true that you can make it better by adding more bikes and upgrades, but then the price will be even higher.

A mob of 30 Boys with 3 special weapons and a Power Klaw Nob only cost 230 to 245 points and it a good deal more effective. Especially when supported by other units, which you can afford to bring because you didnít put all your eggs in one basket.

Conversely with my IG, Iíd just let them eat 1 cheap unit a turn while I pepper them with flashlights, MLís and Battle Cannons. It's much easier than having to deal with a few hundred points of basic Ork Boys.

Karnstein
03-03-2009, 00:24
you don't put all eggs into one basket...fielding 8-10 nob bikers leaves you enough points for some kopters, cans and 60+ orks, depending on the point size of the whole army.

I'm not saying they are unbeatable, but the are a strong unit. There was a very popular german tournament this weekend...32 players, 2 of them played orks (both using bikers afaik) and they ended up on place 1+2. And the local rules nerfed orks with a "no unit with more than 20 models" rule. One of the two even complained about the rules spec. been written to counter orks (and going over the top with that) and he still got the second place. Figures?

EDIT: and they won't eat one unit a turn...a good ork player will trigger multiple combats with them, esp. against "horde" armies like IG.

Bloodknight
03-03-2009, 00:45
Exactly. They go full spread and assault several units at once. Flashlights do squat all against a biker nob with FNP, and the warbosses main purpose in that biker mob is to eat lascannons/krak missile shots so no other biker gets an ID wound.
In general, a bossbiker mob costs between 500 and 700 points, they are troops, they don't die from small arms fire, and there are still lots of other guys behind them.

@Karnstein: which one was it?

Karnstein
03-03-2009, 00:50
@bloodknight: boltershot XII... simon first (no surprise) and j_aeger second... third place went to badger with CSM.

Bloodknight
03-03-2009, 00:59
Simon, who else...;)

It's funny to see that he switched to Orks and sold his GT-winning Wych Cult after that took a hit with 5th...

Solar_Eclipse
03-03-2009, 01:00
Hmmm so now i think the best units against Nob Bikers will be:

Hellhound: 12-20" range on a fast vehicle, Flame template S6 Ap4, only gives the bikers their feel no pain save.

Banewolf: Template weapon at Ap3 that always wounds on a 2+ and only gives feel no pain save.

Eradicator: Large Blast weapon at S6 Ap4 that ignores cover.

Collossus: Large blast S6 aP3 weapon that ignores cover.

These would all be quite useful, i would imagine.

Bloodknight
03-03-2009, 01:03
Yeah, these could work, but I'd probably still go for ID causing stuff, so they only get their 4+ cover and each unsaved wound kills a nob (except for the first one from each blast which will go to the warboss unless it's Demolisher shot). Single wounds just take too long to kill them, and they usually have the 5+ inv save from cybork bodies, too.

Solar_Eclipse
03-03-2009, 01:31
Yeah, these could work, but I'd probably still go for ID causing stuff, so they only get their 4+ cover and each unsaved wound kills a nob

That would be a 3+ cover due to Turboboosting?

Theres no real hard and fast way, although as a chaos Player i would gladly throw a Khorne lord with Daemon weapon and Juggernaught in there and hope for the best.

Devil Tree
03-03-2009, 01:40
Exactly. They go full spread and assault several units at once. Flashlights do squat all against a biker nob with FNP, and the warbosses main purpose in that biker mob is to eat lascannons/krak missile shots so no other biker gets an ID wound.
In general, a bossbiker mob costs between 500 and 700 points, they are troops, they don't die from small arms fire, and there are still lots of other guys behind them.

Maybe Iím too used to friendly games, since I never go to tournaments. Also, when my opponents get a little ďtoo creativeĒ I just tend to stop playing them. As far as flashlights go, they "can" hurt things, but only if you throw a ton of them at your target and keep your expectations low.

Hi_ex_lover
03-03-2009, 01:54
I second that. My gaurdsmen killed 2 terminators this weekend with flashlights! And 1 more in CC(a conscript no less!)! How? Throw a crap-ton of them at them....

LoneSniperSG
03-03-2009, 03:00
Not necessarily.

Well personally I dislike Armoured Company, but what Im really saying is people who will min max the list?

How to put this- like in 1.5k pick up games people who are not playing a themed list max out their heavy weapons while taking just enough troops to take objectives.

Its more to do with themes- if your a treadhead and you enjoy armored company and you play by the AC rules Im ok with that.

An annoying kid coming with a regular min maxed list is different.

As a disclaimer Im personally not a fan of AC builds anyway, Id only use them if the opponent agreed beforehand, I wouldnt spring one in a pickup game. Thats a bit offtopic though.

Armored Companies are an existing and needed force in a military. Technically, if you have a couple of Russes then you already have some AC power, as all battle tanks are technically "on loan" from one. In my case, the tanks from the 51st Cadian 3rd Armored Company are attatched to the 51st Cadian 1st Grenadier company. Etc.

Anyway.. major digression there.

I have to agree with you, though. People who max out their Heavies and take little to no troops are annoying, but refreshingly easy to smack down since they invest so much in tanks.

Lord Solar Plexus
03-03-2009, 13:42
What I'm worried about is the IG treadhead list. ...If you even have the points left to do it efficiently, a "balanced" list will need to be able to handle 150 Orks, 8 Monstrous Creatures, and 9 Leman Russes.

That will hardly be the case. 9 Russes are 1,600 points - and less resilient than 8 MC's. Also, the two former builds have been around for quite some time. Thirdly, all AT guns/tools are anti-MC guns/tools and vice versa, plus a few that might work in a pinch (low S multishots vs MC, low S multishots vs side/rear armour etc.), so there are still only those two main catagories. I however prefer to address heavy and light INF as well as MBT's/MC's and transports, so in effect I always had to have a list capable of dealing with a varied list of threats.

However, balanced lists will always lack some punch against certain one-trick ponies. C'est la vue (if you excuse my French).


Hmmm so now i think the best units against Nob Bikers will be:

Hellhound:


Not good. Shoots once, puts 1-2 wounds on the unit and dies.

Please do not bother to even roll for the others. Life's too short for such a shameful waste of time. Use a Demolisher or three screened by multiple squads spread out to the max to buy them some time. If they turboboost, they take themselves out of the game for one turn, so let them.

SPYDER68
03-03-2009, 13:49
That will hardly be the case. 9 Russes are 1,600 points - and less resilient than 8 MC's. Also, the two former builds have been around for quite some time. Thirdly, all AT guns/tools are anti-MC guns/tools and vice versa, plus a few that might work in a pinch (low S multishots vs MC, low S multishots vs side/rear armour etc.), so there are still only those two main catagories. I however prefer to address heavy and light INF as well as MBT's/MC's and transports, so in effect I always had to have a list capable of dealing with a varied list of threats.

However, balanced lists will always lack some punch against certain one-trick ponies. C'est la vue (if you excuse my French).



Not good. Shoots once, puts 1-2 wounds on the unit and dies.

Please do not bother to even roll for the others. Life's too short for such a shameful waste of time. Use a Demolisher or three screened by multiple squads spread out to the max to buy them some time. If they turboboost, they take themselves out of the game for one turn, so let them.

If they assault the Hellhound they are dumb with that squad... its a very cheap tank.. and with the new one being a fast vehicle they will haft to roll 6's to even hit it.

It will live a good amount of time vs a close combat army unless they get lucky, and if they do go after it, thats 1 turn they arent in your expensive tanks or guardsmen.

Captain Micha
03-03-2009, 13:58
I believe he's talking about the deathstrike missle - which, IF it fires, has the potential to be S10 ap1 !12"! diameter blast. That is to say, take the big Apoc blast and add an inch all the way around....

and that's in addition to the orbital bombardment the IG get through the Fleet Liason officer and the d3 Earthshakers we get through the arty officer and....

On the whole, I suspect the IG will finally play the way they were supposed to play

That's kind of an IF though. Where as Orbital Bombardment is a guaranteed strike down.

I'm more keen on this fortification buster round myself.

Bloodknight
03-03-2009, 15:09
That would be a 3+ cover due to Turboboosting?

Correct. They can't assault then, though.


Maybe I’m too used to friendly games, since I never go to tournaments. Also, when my opponents get a little “too creative” I just tend to stop playing them. As far as flashlights go, they "can" hurt things, but only if you throw a ton of them at your target and keep your expectations low.

They can, it's just not anything to count on. Hit on 4, wound on 6, 4+ save, 4+ save. Ie to expect one wound you have to fire 36 shots at them.
A nob biker mob looks like this:

Warboss with Cybork Body, Power klaw, Bike, other stuff
Dok with whatever
Nob: power klaw
NOb: power klaw, scorcher
nob: power klaw, rokkit
nob: power claw, slugga
nob: huge choppa
nob: huge choppa, something to shoot

and so on. All of them get cybork bodies, and by equipping everybody differently you have to inflict an idiotic amount of wounds just to kill the first one unless you use ID weaponry.

Hellgore
03-03-2009, 15:23
Well, I will be glad when IG finally becomes competitive. I always felt for those IG-Players who took the beating of all the other armies and still stood tall.
IG was always looked upon with pity, now they spread some fear. That's okay, they suffered long enough.
After all these years IG makes some sense and becomes the fearsome hammer of the emperor, as it is supposed to be.

I for myself will sell my cadian army with the release of the new codex. But only because I hardly find enough time to keep up with painting all the other armies I have...:)

Oh, and my "smurfs" (yes, I play UM) won't be "whining". They took on every challenge so far and will overcome this one, too! :evilgrin:

Miggidy Mack
03-03-2009, 15:49
Overpowered in my eyes = challenge. If you have a book with more recent rules all the more power to you, but when my turn comes around, Necrons, you'll all be running scared. OR you could step up to the challenge like myself.

Here Here! I play daemon hunters with some guard thrown in. Many of my friends play space marines & orks! I love the challenge!

Gray Hunter
05-03-2009, 23:21
Whatever GW does, there will always be people who don't play Army X who will say, "Waa waa waa, Army X has a new codex and it's way overpowered and now the game is broken cause I can't win any more, waa waa waa."

At the same time, there will be a proportion of the players of Army X who say, "Waa waa waa, Army X isn't powerful enough and this new codex is a waste of time and the game is still broken cause I still can't win, waa waa waa."

People will always bitch and moan. Usually those people are the talentless gimps who can't get ahead in life because they're too lazy or dumb, so their only recourse is to whine about how the system screws them. Unfortunately these people exist in our hobby too. My solution is to offer to switch armies with them, trounce them again with their own "underpowered" list while they use my "overpowered" army, then walk away chuckling to myself.

LoneSniperSG
06-03-2009, 04:34
People will always bitch and moan. Usually those people are the talentless gimps who can't get ahead in life because they're too lazy or dumb, so their only recourse is to whine about how the system screws them. Unfortunately these people exist in our hobby too. My solution is to offer to switch armies with them, trounce them again with their own "underpowered" list while they use my "overpowered" army, then walk away chuckling to myself.

Always a good way to handle the deficient.

blameless
06-03-2009, 08:13
Point costs have not been released so we can't judge, SM sounded incredibly amazing and assumption's that there going to be OP'd seemed prevalent, 3+ invul storm shields, S6 AP3 Flame templates, special ammunition, assault from deep strike, heavy 2 cyclones, etc. all sounded like there going to OP the race, it turns out they are very hard to win with since there is no unit that is a win-win situation (like Nob Bikers). I'm not that scared, as long as the terrain is on my side I don't care if you have a S10 AP1 Heavy 10 Large blast gun, I'll just pop the tank.

I feel the same way! all the complaining and crying that went on before the marines codex was released. Its a case of synergy and point costs/balance.

Things sound powerful now... but only 6months after the release and testing can you make your calls... end of story in my opinion :eek:

Miggidy Mack
06-03-2009, 13:31
Sadly I too am selling my IG light infantry army. But only so I can afford to build an IG Valkyrie army! I really like those models!

arch_inquisitor
06-03-2009, 13:48
I've always played SM orks and gaurd so I could care less.:)

Doesn't really matter what new dex comes out some one is gonna whine and it doesn't really matter what army you play.

Blinder
06-03-2009, 15:47
As a long time Guard player, I'm a bit wary of the seemingly incredible amount of options being thrown into this book. Different weapons for the Hellhound, sure - a buttload of different options for the Leman Russ? Those things are better suited in the IA books, to be honest.

A good half of the "new" tanks are things that IA1 gave *back* to Guard (vanquisher, gryphon) or otherwise came up with (executioner, medusa, hydra, manticore...), and then there's the exterminator back from it's last appearance in the 3ed codex. IA1 always seemed to be less about a bunch of unique nutty-rules units and more about putting some previously characteristic (and sold in standard 40k boxes) units back into guard lists with some official (white dwarf, even) rules behind them. And then adding a bunch of unique nutty-rules units like the powerlifter. People need to not stay up working on the rules book with Aliens playing on the TV. As far as I can gather VDR units/older IA publications are deprecated now, so they probably figured "hey, let's toss this stuff back in the big book because we have an extra 40 pages" and then someone stayed up working on the rules book during an Apocalypse or Epic all-nighter at the office.

Personally, I'm glad to see a lot of these in the book, because it gives the tread-happy Guard players (me about half the time) a lot of options that you don't have to trim out come tourney-time and especially because we're getting some of the close-in artillery back (even moreso with destructable buildings being a focus in the rulebook... now if only I still had those old cardstock bunker/firebase kits).

On the footslogging side (me the other half of the time), I am grateful to see GMs going back down in points, but I *liked* doctrines, even with their oddball valuation. Being able to drop platoons of I4 WS4 "who the hell cares how many of them there are" guardsmen (or better yet, outflank them in 5th, though losing Die Hards because of the wording sucked) all over the place was a *wonderful* way to turn whatever your opponent was planning on doing on its head. A lot of fun could be had with things like warrior weapons, too, and generally you could buy back the one or two unit types you hoped for off the restricted list (though nothing on there was really "required"). Granted, there are ways they might incorporate doing a lot of what was done through doctrines through orders, or the main entries (*hopes for Weapons: lasgun or laspistol + CCW*).

As for being OP... EVERY time a codex comes out, there are things people are afraid of, and Guard codexes are no exception. 3rd ed, "Oh NO! Hidden basilisks!" They were quite powerful, and deadly in the hands of a good player (since guess weapons hadn't been nerfed to all hell), but weren't the end of the world. 4th ed, "Oh NO! I4 WS4 no penalty can-always-regroup guardsmen! (plus other doctrine combos)" Again, not the end of the world, and not the doom everyone expected (that honor went to the "Plasma lists of doom" which were IMO a bit much but still annoyed people more than it defeated them). So, now we have, "Oh NO! AP3 Stormies!" The book hasn't even come out and most folks have decided it's not the end of the world (but some still find it terribly annoying). Personally I think the pre-release fear mongering is going to be worse than post-release IMBA! whining with this book. I do think it will be a strong book though, possibly in the way the 4th ed book almost was simply because it has a chance of finally pulling the "main ideas" of all the scattered guard lists together in one place (and at a reasonable points cost, even).

volair
06-03-2009, 17:08
A good half of the "new" tanks are things that IA1 gave *back* to Guard (vanquisher, gryphon) or otherwise came up with (executioner, medusa, hydra, manticore...), and then there's the exterminator back from it's last appearance in the 3ed codex. IA1 always seemed to be less about a bunch of unique nutty-rules units and more about putting some previously characteristic (and sold in standard 40k boxes) units back into guard lists with some official (white dwarf, even) rules behind them. And then adding a bunch of unique nutty-rules units like the powerlifter. People need to not stay up working on the rules book with Aliens playing on the TV. As far as I can gather VDR units/older IA publications are deprecated now, so they probably figured "hey, let's toss this stuff back in the big book because we have an extra 40 pages" and then someone stayed up working on the rules book during an Apocalypse or Epic all-nighter at the office.

Personally, I'm glad to see a lot of these in the book, because it gives the tread-happy Guard players (me about half the time) a lot of options that you don't have to trim out come tourney-time and especially because we're getting some of the close-in artillery back (even moreso with destructable buildings being a focus in the rulebook... now if only I still had those old cardstock bunker/firebase kits).

On the footslogging side (me the other half of the time), I am grateful to see GMs going back down in points, but I *liked* doctrines, even with their oddball valuation. Being able to drop platoons of I4 WS4 "who the hell cares how many of them there are" guardsmen (or better yet, outflank them in 5th, though losing Die Hards because of the wording sucked) all over the place was a *wonderful* way to turn whatever your opponent was planning on doing on its head. A lot of fun could be had with things like warrior weapons, too, and generally you could buy back the one or two unit types you hoped for off the restricted list (though nothing on there was really "required"). Granted, there are ways they might incorporate doing a lot of what was done through doctrines through orders, or the main entries (*hopes for Weapons: lasgun or laspistol + CCW*).

As for being OP... EVERY time a codex comes out, there are things people are afraid of, and Guard codexes are no exception. 3rd ed, "Oh NO! Hidden basilisks!" They were quite powerful, and deadly in the hands of a good player (since guess weapons hadn't been nerfed to all hell), but weren't the end of the world. 4th ed, "Oh NO! I4 WS4 no penalty can-always-regroup guardsmen! (plus other doctrine combos)" Again, not the end of the world, and not the doom everyone expected (that honor went to the "Plasma lists of doom" which were IMO a bit much but still annoyed people more than it defeated them). So, now we have, "Oh NO! AP3 Stormies!" The book hasn't even come out and most folks have decided it's not the end of the world (but some still find it terribly annoying). Personally I think the pre-release fear mongering is going to be worse than post-release IMBA! whining with this book. I do think it will be a strong book though, possibly in the way the 4th ed book almost was simply because it has a chance of finally pulling the "main ideas" of all the scattered guard lists together in one place (and at a reasonable points cost, even).

I agree with a lot of what you said. Personally I like the direction GW is going with Imperial Guard. They are making Guardsmen highly efficient but to counter that they take up a lot of space and as such they have trouble bringing all of that efficiency to bear on the enemy. This is a great way to balance them, similar to how they did ork boyz (though perhaps the orks are 1 point too cheap, I'm still undecided). Horde armies have to be statistically superior to have a chance against elites, because taking up 2-3 times as much area is a huge disadvantage.

At the same time they are also giving imperial guard players two ways to get some concetrated power into a smaller region of the board: tanks, and elite infantry in valkyries. This is fantastic as it allows for variation based on play style. Some people will prefer flying transports and elite infantry with high tech guns and special weapons, others will prefer the big, resilient tanks that churn out massive firepower. They have tanks for any role, and storm troopers can take a variety of special weapons for different roles, so no matter which way you wish to play, you have something to kill tanks and other types of targets. This codex was designed based on good concepts of strategy, tactics, and variation; does anyone know who wrote this book?

Captain Micha
06-03-2009, 17:15
Assuming the dex isn't filled with overpriced units?

A genius wrote that book.

Goq Gar
06-03-2009, 17:36
As always, when a new army comes out, it is immediately: OMG HAX CHEESE BEARD LOL.

It remains so for at least 3 months, or until a new army is released. So is the way of the internet.

electricblooz
06-03-2009, 17:48
That's kind of an IF though. Where as Orbital Bombardment is a guaranteed strike down.

I'm more keen on this fortification buster round myself.

Well - true it is a big "if" and frankly we don't know the rules for certain yet because we're working of off translations of leaked translations... ever played the game "telephone?"

for instance, the first instance of deathstrike leaks claimed range was "unlimited," sparking discussions of developing a "world-wide" deathstrike pool so that no matter where you were playing (and when) you could text the pool and ask for a missle to be targeted on your table. Obviously, these discussions were vey tongue-in-cheek (albeit hilarious), but the point remains that we don't know exactly how they are going to work. My point was we do pretty much know how all those other things (fleet officers, etc.) will work and they are juicy enough for me.

W0lf
06-03-2009, 18:09
The book will clearly anhialate marines. So much AP3 weaponary and 4 Guardsmen > 1 Marine so meh.

Marneus Calgar
06-03-2009, 20:00
Points will be my the largest concern with the IG codex. Surely the current codex is not that bad, but there are a lot of units which are drastically overpriced.

I do not see the logic of a killer kan, which has armor 11 11 10, closed top, and has a dreadnought close combat weapon, and more attacks, is the same price as a sentinel BEFORE weapons. I also donít see the logic why an Eldar war walker has higher I and attack, and is closed top, cost five points less than a sentinel. There are many good options in the current guard codex, yet a lot of these options are drastically overpriced.

Bookwrak
06-03-2009, 20:08
If you don't see the logic, then you really need to look harder. The comparative point cost of a sentinel and a kan are pretty much irrelevant. You can't just line the two up, and make any sort of conclusion about which has the more appropriate point cost, because you're not looking at the rest of the army to put it in context.

Marneus Calgar
06-03-2009, 21:34
If you don't see the logic, then you really need to look harder. The comparative point cost of a sentinel and a kan are pretty much irrelevant. You can't just line the two up, and make any sort of conclusion about which has the more appropriate point cost, because you're not looking at the rest of the army to put it in context.

Hence why I said that there are many units in the current guard army which are overcosted. It is not just the sentinel which is the problem with the guard codex, but other units which need work with conjunction to one another.

Karnstein
06-03-2009, 21:46
Hence why I said that there are many units in the current guard army which are overcosted. It is not just the sentinel which is the problem with the guard codex, but other units which need work with conjunction to one another.

True, some units are overpriced. Which still doesn't say anything about the question, if it is right to compare sentinels with walkers&kans. That's like comparing vypers with landspeeders or tau piranhas, which isn't clever either. vypers are crap because they pay for a lost "auto glance" rule and are overpriced compared with walkers, not because SM get a bs4 closed speeder for ~ the same points.

SM can't field a bunch of fast skimmers... eldar can't field 4pt guardians and tons of ordnance-weapons. So sentinels could be a valid choice even with 4ed points, as long as a) they fill a role none other unit can fill and b) you have enough spare points thanks to 4pt soldiers.

Nym
06-03-2009, 22:28
You can't just line the two up, and make any sort of conclusion about which has the more appropriate point cost, because you're not looking at the rest of the army to put it in context.

That's true indeed, but only if the codex compared are radically different.

Both Eldars and IG have an amazing long range firepower. Since the Sentinel and the Warwalker share a similar context, the fact that the WW is so much better AND cheaper than the Sentinel doesn't make sense.

If the Sentinel was the only unit able to carry Heavy weapons in the Imperial guard, it would be fine for it to cost more than the WW. But neither of them occupies a niche in their respective codex, and thus they should both be around the same point cost.

Aegius
06-03-2009, 23:21
That's true indeed, but only if the codex compared are radically different.

Both Eldars and IG have an amazing long range firepower. Since the Sentinel and the Warwalker share a similar context, the fact that the WW is so much better AND cheaper than the Sentinel doesn't make sense.

If the Sentinel was the only unit able to carry Heavy weapons in the Imperial guard, it would be fine for it to cost more than the WW. But neither of them occupies a niche in their respective codex, and thus they should both be around the same point cost.

ummm...........no! The warwalker is in contest to the same slot as the falcon, fireprism and wraithlord. Do guard have any of those things? no.

also, I'm pretty sure that sentinels are not currently and will not be limited to heavy support slots. If they are, then I'm sorry for posting, but until the time they are fighting for a spot with leman russes and Basilisks, don't compare them to a warwalker.

Nym
07-03-2009, 00:24
If they are, then I'm sorry for posting, but until the time they are fighting for a spot with leman russes and Basilisks, don't compare them to a warwalker.

Sentinels occupy the same slot as Hellhounds (Fast attack). Even Falcons can't compare to Hellhounds as mandatory choices in the current metagame.

And in two months now, Sentinels will also compete with Leman Russes and Basilisks if you want them to use some heavy weapons (Plasma canon, Missile launchers, etc...). I guess I'm allowed to compare them to Warwalkers then ?

Beside, when one unit fires 8 (!!!) S6 AP6 shots, and the other fires only 3, for the same point cost, all codex related arguments become pointless. You can't have the exact same unit in two different codex, with one getting 2.6 times more shots than the other for the same point cost.

The_Outsider
07-03-2009, 00:36
Psst, no matter what you do IG will never escape the solid core of the force is T3 5+ - even if you get loads of them (like orks or tyranids) the fact that your guys melt in the face of any sort of gunfire balances it out.

Look at orks, if yo ugo for a proper green tide the force only owrks because it has numbers taken to the extreme, if the basic boy wasn't 6 points the green tide wouldn't work.

Ultimately I am not concerned that 4pt guardsmen and more pie plates than an eating contest will break IG.

Karnstein
07-03-2009, 00:38
that kind of argument would count for LS vs vyper too...and? LS>vyper since ed3, esp. after the s*c
nerf.^^

edit: and who plays falcons anymore anyway? btw: codex eldar is a 4ed dex...nobody used walkers back than, because WL and esp. holo-falcons were the better choice. Sentinels can scout too, something a k-kan can't do. And we don't know if sentinels can't use the shock-troop rule too.

Imperialis_Dominatus
07-03-2009, 01:47
...Tau opponent...whining about...firepower...

God dammit. What the hell is wrong with the world?


each 'dex is fully playtested, and no one is automatically more powerful than another.

:eyebrows:

No.

I'm not even going to go into specific examples.

But seriously.

No.


Is being neglected for many years actually a good reason to make the new book overpowered?

Yes, some would say, as they repeat the "Guard is soo underpowered and neglected you have no right to complain, NOOB" argument, and flog me for playing Space Marines.

No, others would say, "the new book is just fine, learn tactics you whiny SMURF PLAYER", as they dust off their Leman Russes and wipe me off the table, crediting their newfound ability to demolish enemies to their obviously overwhelming tactical brilliance.

QFT.


Ask the people who wrote the new Ork Codex ;)

*sighs*


Hmm...Yes, now do you believe that Orks, by logic, not emotions, not sentiments of pity, have a right to have options that are overly effective, because they had a bad codex?

There is some sort of weird logical fallacy going on in this forum, where people use some sort of unreasonable emotional argument to justify abuse in the reverse direction.

QFT again.

volair
07-03-2009, 21:56
If you don't see the logic, then you really need to look harder. The comparative point cost of a sentinel and a kan are pretty much irrelevant. You can't just line the two up, and make any sort of conclusion about which has the more appropriate point cost, because you're not looking at the rest of the army to put it in context.

I disagree with you; You can indeed line two units up, and determine which one is superior to the other, based on statistics. It is often the case that one will mathematically be clearly superior to the other, and when this is the case it is a flaw on the designers part. What a good designer does in that case, is they change something about the inferior unit to make it different from the other in a meaningful way, or bring it in line mathematically, by adjusting the point cost for example (note that the more powerful one could just as well become more expensive, which they should do if it is determined to be overpowered). I argue that External balance is important to consider as well as internal balance.

Internal balance ensures variety, external variety ensures that the race can compete against the others. It is possible to do both at the same time, but not perfectly of course. You should be able to compare sentinals and warwalkers and they should each have their own advantages such that a simple calculation doesn't immediately show one to be inferior, which is the case right now. And if they improve sentinals sufficienty in the new Imperial Guard codex, then people will notice it and they will start to consider them for competitive army lists, and then you start to see a drastic improvement in internal balance as people begin to diverge, some taking sentinals and others taking leman russes or what have you. I therefore hypothesize that improving external balance leads to improved internal balance.

There are many ways to make two unit that fulfill the same role become similar in power level, whilst having a different feel to maintain racial diversity. In the case of the new imperial guard codex they are allowing you to take armor 12 sentinals, or cheaper armor 10 sentinals with scout. The armor 12 variants will still probably be offensively inferior to warwalkers, but if they are costed correctly the armor should be enough to bring it in line in terms of overall effectiveness. The cheaper variants with armor 10 should be made significantly cheaper, thereby increasing their offensive efficiency to make them comparable to war walkers (if they are cheaper, then you get more for the same cost, and therefore when you are doing point cost normalized statistical calculations all of the numbers go up). It is currently unknown if the designers costed them correctly, such that what I have said would be true.

Heimlich
07-03-2009, 22:02
I think a balanced guard army will be both fun to play and balanced. You choose your HQ choice suited to your army, get your 2 troop choices, perhaps 3. Buy a Sentinel Squad and a Leman Russ and have a competitive 1000pt army.

volair
07-03-2009, 22:07
I think a balanced guard army will be both fun to play and balanced. You choose your HQ choice suited to your army, get your 2 troop choices, perhaps 3. Buy a Sentinel Squad and a Leman Russ and have a competitive 1000pt army.

It is currently unknown if the new sentinals will be competitive. We don't know how many points they cost.

volair
07-03-2009, 22:40
The book will clearly anhialate marines. So much AP3 weaponary and 4 Guardsmen > 1 Marine so meh.

When you think about things in the context of the 5th edition rulebook (killpoints, cover, etc...) as well as consider that guardsmen take up a lot more space, it is not so clear cut as you make it out to be.

Mannimarco
07-03-2009, 23:39
When you think about things in the context of the 5th edition rulebook (killpoints, cover, etc...) as well as consider that guardsmen take up a lot more space, it is not so clear cut as you make it out to be.

QFT 4 point guardsmen means more of them on the table meaning more will die meaning more kill points lost

Freakiq
08-03-2009, 00:27
QFT 4 point guardsmen means more of them on the table meaning more will die meaning more kill points lost

Yay, if we play a kill points mission marines have a chance!

I'm not worried though, I trust GW on this one, the same thing happens every time a codex is released.

Wolflord Havoc
08-03-2009, 01:03
QFT 4 point guardsmen means more of them on the table meaning more will die meaning more kill points lost

Rumor mill says that Individual Squads will not give away KPs (entire platoons will!) and I suspect that Officers will no longer be counted as 'Independent characters' (See Vraks Part 2 - Servants of Slaughter List FW usually get some idea of the Rules for their lists and this one makes perfect sense). So no more 2 KPs for killing 4 Guardsmen and an Officer.


Have you read the FAQ? It says to treat the large base as two models based together. So in essence - two hits on two separate guys who just happen to share a base. Nowhere did it say they became a two wound entity (in fact, it didn't even tell you that you had to use the large bases, just form a weapons team) and therefore I don't quite understand how you (or someone you played) came up with Instant Death for them :wtf:

Yes I read the FAQ! It was made of Fail and did not work on the table top. It was a stupid solution to the problem. I personally did not have an issue with the large bases - I quite liked them in fact - but other players did not like them (including many on this and other forum). You have to remember that their are players out their who will grab every mm in order to grab an advantage and/or were confused as it is the only unit in the game that was (and still is till May) effectively a 1 base model that is actually 2 models and there were players who ahd a real problem getting their heads around it.


Of course there were rules. Just check the FAQ, it's sometimes actually helpful.

Not in this case. Too ambiguous. However the way that the Rumour Mill claims that they will work is fine - why didn't they do that in the first place? I am just hoping that I can continue to keep them legally based seperately.

DarkMatter2
08-03-2009, 01:10
Guard will do just fine in terms of killpoints methinks.

Vaktathi
08-03-2009, 01:13
Guard will do just fine in terms of killpoints methinks.

Perhaps, but I'm doubtful, and the purported fix isn't a terribly thrilling one (merging an entire platoon into one squad causes more problems than it fixes). ST companies will still get boned.

DarkMatter2
08-03-2009, 01:17
I'm gonna trust GW to find a way to make it work. If you are right, and ST armies are still screwed, well I will be kind of upset.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 01:24
long have we waited for kasrkin and stormtrooper type armies, and now with the rumoured ap3 flashlight of death they will be viable armies but merging troops into one squad for kill points will be interesting, instead of the JO and his bodyguard and 5 squads of troops used to be 7 points, now theyre 1 point?

zoodog
08-03-2009, 03:07
Perhaps, but I'm doubtful, and the purported fix isn't a terribly thrilling one (merging an entire platoon into one squad causes more problems than it fixes). ST companies will still get boned.

How so? Most of the full squads will likely be 100+ points which is not all that uncommon a range for a kill point and most armies suffer the same trade off with mechanized vs non-mech. While they not be equal to those armies taking effective 250 point troop choices they can still play the game.

Imperius
08-03-2009, 05:39
REally for me I have no care how powerful my new Codex will be.
Remember Orks? Nob Bikers going flat out, cover save and doing uber damage with PK's even killing Monoliths.
People WILL learn to adapt. I learned that 3 Heavy Bolters usually kill enough Bikers to be home-free.

What I'm REALLY scared of is the new HOODED Ratling Snipers

I hope they make sentinels better though...