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View Full Version : Were there actually elves at Helm's Deep?



VeriNasti
01-03-2009, 03:37
I was thinking about it today and from memory I can't remember Tolkein writing about the Elves at Helm's Deep. Is there anyone who actually knows?
And did Haldir actually die?

Deakor
01-03-2009, 03:56
I believe there was only one elf at Helm's Deep in the book and he came through the battle fine.

Jackson added the elves to Helm's Deep for the film version.

ElfSpeaker
01-03-2009, 04:04
Deakor is correct. The elves were added to Helmsdeep when the LotR script was done for a two movie version. It was how they were going to give Aragorn his sword and they were originally going to add Arwyn to the story there. By the time they realized that added the elves did not belong, it was too late to cut them out of the battle.

The account is mostly gathered through the Directors Commentary on the extended Two Towers

VeriNasti
01-03-2009, 05:29
Thanks guys - discussing it with a friend and could not agree

jaws900
01-03-2009, 09:24
I thought that. thought that they arrived at Minas Tirith in the book instead of Helms Deep.

Neknoh
01-03-2009, 10:08
Nopes, not that either, the great battle reinforcements happened as follows:

Helm's Deep: Théoden and Háma defend Helm's Deep, unsure of Émoer. Gamling IIRC and possibly Éomer arrives with Gandalf and the exiled Rohirrim (note sure they were even exiled, just sent on a mission far far away).


Minas Tirith:
The Shadow Host from Minas Morgul (?) arrives, these are hollow ghosts/husks of men whom have fallen to the Morgul Blades throghout the ages.
The host of Rohan arrives
The Easterling riders of the Black Snake Arrives, Theoden cuts down their leader and their banner before Witch King lands on him.
The Múmakil arives

In another Area, Aragorn uses the Oathbreakers (if they are ghosts or merely some form of undead is never really made clear) to capture the Black Ships, upon which their oath is fullfilled.

Back to Pelenor and Minas Tirith and the Rohirrim are in dire need of help.

The Black Ships arrive

The Banner of the Evening Star (a banner embroidered with starlight and moonlight, sewn by Arwen) is unfolded and held high at the fore of the first ship.

Out leaps Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas and around 80+x Aragorns (the real Dúnedain tribes with their tribe leaders arrive, these are BADASS, really, think 80+ Aragorns. One of the kings died when he led his men close enough to bring down a mumakil, by shooting it repeatedly in the eyes, it fell on him). AND Elladan and Elrohir, the twin sons of Elrond who have the badassery of Glorfindel, Aragorn and Legolas combined.

These were the Black Ship reinforcements and it was a hard-fought win.

NOT Deus-Ex-Machina-Green-Ghosts or Shiny-Elves-that-Didn't-Make-a-Difference

neXus6
01-03-2009, 11:05
Yeah, I was really tempted to get some Haldir's Elves but the fact they were fabricated for the films put me off.

Haldir was really probably only a rank comparable to sergeant if anything, he was just a ranger. His book character would never have been given a force to command. :)

Nuada
01-03-2009, 11:15
I quite like the addition of the elves going to Helms Deep. They originally filmed Arwen there as well, but they cut those scenes.

Kronos
01-03-2009, 11:27
if there was only one elf in Helms Deep in the book(Arwen), then was Legolas not there ?

Neknoh
01-03-2009, 11:31
Did Arwen show up in the book? I have no recollection of such, or was it there that she gave Aragorn the Banner of the Evening Star?

Cherubael
01-03-2009, 12:33
Legolas was the only Elf at Helms Deep. The scene in ROTK when Aragorn recieves Anduril is instead the Banner in the books.

Personally i dont mind having Elves at Helms Deep in the film. In the books we know about their fighting against Sauron in their own territories, but the films couldnt hope to fit everything like that it.

lorelorn
01-03-2009, 12:33
Eomer was at Helm's Deep. He and Gimli got cut off when the Deeping Wall fell and were thought dead. It was Erkenbrand that Gandalf went around to rally, and who led the Riders against the Uruk-Hai, he then played no further part in the story.

Arwen never left her father's house but did make the banner that Halbarad showed up with.



I thought it was Forlong the Fat who led his archers to shoot the eyes of the Mumakil?

HsojVvad
01-03-2009, 14:10
PJ put elves in helms deep for anthour reason. He wanted to put elves into the movies, but really couldn't fit them in. He also wanted to represent the Last Allience somehow and he thought this was a good way of doing it.

In the books, Halidir didn't die. I think i was Halidir who took Frodo from Aragorn when he was stabbed with the Morigul Blade and not Arwen. Again he was in the books, but I guess PJ just wanted him in the movie somehow.

I liked how PJ put the elves into Helmsdeep. I dosn't make Elrond such a Dick for not doing anything to help out humans, and doing nothing.

Someone mentioned about Aragorn getting his sword in the movie. I know this wasn't asked, but in the book Styder always had his sword Arenduil, Flame of the West, from the begining in the books.

Cherubael
01-03-2009, 14:15
In the books, Halidir didn't die. I think i was Halidir who took Frodo from Aragorn when he was stabbed with the Morigul Blade and not Arwen. Again he was in the books, but I guess PJ just wanted him in the movie somehow.


That was Glorfindel, who wasnt included as a) Considering Arwen is Aragorns love interest, she doesnt do much in the books, and b) adding Glorfindel would be yet another character to develop, when after than point he doesnt do that much in regards to the main storyline.

Nuada
01-03-2009, 14:32
Someone mentioned about Aragorn getting his sword in the movie. I know this wasn't asked, but in the book Styder always had his sword Arenduil, Flame of the West, from the begining in the books.

I can see why they changed this, a broken sword would have looked funny in the film :)

HsojVvad
01-03-2009, 16:57
Thanks for the clarification Cherubael. I got the names mixed up.

See there is madeness to PJ's madness lol :)

Neknoh
01-03-2009, 18:13
Depends on how broken, and whether or not he'd use it, I think he carried the sword with him in its broken/shattered form and it was then reforged into Andúril before he left Rivendell with the fellowship.

Ah yes, Erkenbrand, thanks for clearing that name for me.

Although I have to disagree on Glorfindel, putting him as Frodo's Saviour and showing part of the hunt in the twilight realm would've been awesome. Think of it, the ringwraiths as bleack and shadowy kings long dead, and then Glorfindel as a ray of pure, terrifying and yet warm light rushing across the fields.

HsojVvad
01-03-2009, 18:25
Stryder never carried a broken sword and have it reforged. It was always Anduril, in the books. I don't know about The Hobbit, but in the Fellowship of the Ring book, he always had Anduril Flame of the West as his sword.

That is why in SBG you have the option to use it in FotR and TTT, not just RotK.

jaws900
01-03-2009, 19:09
Nopes, not that either, the great battle reinforcements happened as follows:

Helm's Deep: Théoden and Háma defend Helm's Deep, unsure of Émoer. Gamling IIRC and possibly Éomer arrives with Gandalf and the exiled Rohirrim (note sure they were even exiled, just sent on a mission far far away).


Minas Tirith:
The Shadow Host from Minas Morgul (?) arrives, these are hollow ghosts/husks of men whom have fallen to the Morgul Blades throghout the ages.
The host of Rohan arrives
The Easterling riders of the Black Snake Arrives, Theoden cuts down their leader and their banner before Witch King lands on him.
The Múmakil arives


Just a little edit.
1) i think it was Harad who came not the easterlings
2) Eomer was all ready at helms deep fighting along side Aragorn and it was Erkenbrand and Gandalf tho came to here aid. Hama died during the battle (Not due to wargs like in the movie)

alexh
01-03-2009, 19:15
In the book Aragorn carried the shards of Narsil with him, he showed it to Sam in the Prancing Pony. It was re-forged as Anduril before the fellowship left Rivendell.

Neknoh
01-03-2009, 19:33
Yup, haradrim, not easterlings, my bad, Eomer vs Erkenbrand has allready been adjusted.

And aye, I agree with alex, I was quite certain he had the shards.

Nuada
01-03-2009, 19:47
Yes Andúril was named by the elves at Rivendell when Aragorn had it reforged. Before then since the Dwarf Telchar forged it in the 1st age, and when Isildur was using it, the sword was called Narsil

Znail
01-03-2009, 21:06
That was Glorfindel, who wasnt included as a) Considering Arwen is Aragorns love interest, she doesnt do much in the books, and b) adding Glorfindel would be yet another character to develop, when after than point he doesnt do that much in regards to the main storyline.

The entire story about Aragaorn is very diffrent in the book as its not nearly as obvious as in the movie. There are mostly hints about his true identity and Arwen early on. His true identity gets spoiled earlier, but Arwen is only hinted at until the very end. Thus so was it more of a surprice that he rejected Eowyn.

Spiney Norman
01-03-2009, 21:27
Nopes, not that either, the great battle reinforcements happened as follows:

Helm's Deep: Théoden and Háma defend Helm's Deep, unsure of Émoer. Gamling IIRC and possibly Éomer arrives with Gandalf and the exiled Rohirrim (note sure they were even exiled, just sent on a mission far far away).


Actually no, in the book Eomer was imprisoned at Edoras, not exiled as he was in the film. There were no Rohirrim Exiles in the book at all. Eomer was released when Gandalf dispelled Theoden from Saruman's control and helped lead the defenders at Helms deep, he is mentioned as fighting alongside Aragorn.

The relief force which is recruited by Gandalf is instead lead by Erkenbrand, the Duke of the Westfold, who we assume was off somewhere not too far away dealing with some other orcs. Whats more the magnificent cavalry charge of the film is a complete falacy because the relief force was actually composed of 1000 infantrymen.

Neknoh
01-03-2009, 21:31
Allready corrected several times in this thread Norman ;)

And yer, relief force might've been slightly less epic, but the Hruron or whatever them dangerous trees are named did make up for it :p

lotrchampion
01-03-2009, 21:56
Spiney, the hilarious thing is that the cover of WotR has the charge down into the Uruks at Helms Deep led by Gandalf and Erkenbrand...so they tried to meet the films and the books halfway, being correct from neither view. Nice. :-P

WillFightForFood
01-03-2009, 23:13
That was Glorfindel, who wasnt included as a) Considering Arwen is Aragorns love interest, she doesnt do much in the books, and b) adding Glorfindel would be yet another character to develop, when after than point he doesnt do that much in regards to the main storyline.

But he is rather important to the story because he is useful in explaining why the fellowship is chosen as it is and why they attempt to destroy the ring in the way they do. Truth is, Tolkien doesn't much develop the character of Glorfindel in the book either, but there's a lot more other development going on in the book that makes his character fall into place. In the movie, which compresses hundreds of pages into a few hours and turns written narrative elements into visual events, the issue is that a great many people in the movie audience probably would not understand what was going on.

Lordchipper
02-03-2009, 17:45
ok, no to elves ( one elf ) at helms deep.

But, those elves did exist, and were the more elite and organized elves at Lothlorien, called Galadrim. now this really bothered me in the movie, but nowhere near as much as aragorn falling off a cliff...( lets not get into it)

and also, thank you for mentioning the dunedain, in the SBG they are just alright, when in reality they would each be the stat line of a captain, with the skills of elves. the truth is that these 80+ that showed up at pelenor fields were more than a match for about 3000 orcs... the inconsistencies in the SBG bother me more than the movies, and i just wish that certain units in the game were more Elite than they already are.

Ok, on to the Issue of PJ movie's. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER that the movie was made for people who were not LoTR nuts like us. Most people cannot handle the complexity of his writing and find reading it uncomfortable, and put the book down after 2 chapters, for gods sake, they are 5-10 pages of just treebeard singing, or other obscure parts in the book like that.

But, Peter Jackson made some mistakes with screwing up the plot, yes. but they were done make the movie more appealing. ( which i strongly disagree with)

But people, look at the level of detail he put into everything. Every costume and person in the movie is beautifully garbed, and the armor and weapons are fantastic. The action sequences are fantastic, and show a very good depiction of that ancient warfare, although very much altered by the dragons and Nazgul running around.... There were so many crappy LoTR movies that were so bad they were canceled, or came out and no one ever saw them and the CDs sold for scrap metal..

All i am Saying is that PJ made the best fantasy movie i feel ever made. the level of detail is unbelievable, and yes, the movies were NOT perfect, but they are the best LoTR movies ever made.. they have their mistakes, but just sit back and enjoy watching strider cut Lurt's head off

HsojVvad
02-03-2009, 22:33
Don't forget the Tolkien estate, had the yeah or neah to his movie I believe. They could have nixed it if they felt he was wrong, and since they didn't I assume that they agree with his vision.

Lewis
02-03-2009, 23:16
ok, no to elves ( one elf ) at helms deep.

Ok, on to the Issue of PJ movie's. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER that the movie was made for people who were not LoTR nuts like us. Most people cannot handle the complexity of his writing and find reading it uncomfortable, and put the book down after 2 chapters, for gods sake, they are 5-10 pages of just treebeard singing, or other obscure parts in the book like that.

But, Peter Jackson made some mistakes with screwing up the plot, yes. but they were done make the movie more appealing. ( which i strongly disagree with)

Not wanting to derail the thread but he books have deeply uncinematic feel to them, the elves are described by PJ in the commentaries as having being introduced so that there is movement in the audiences perceptions of whether the protagonists are doomed or not. There is very little one can invest in emotionally in Helmsdeep in the books compared to the cinema and epics like this depend upon emtional investment. I refute those people who believe an accurate version of the books would have been better, not least because my bladder would have given way part way through the scourging of the shire and I'd have ended up associating one of my favourite books with the sensation of wetting myself.

Phoenix Blaze
02-03-2009, 23:26
I was watching the Two Towers last night actually, and while I actually like the Elves appearing at Helms Deep, I feel that they were useless. Really, they could've made such a difference to that battle, using the uberness of eleven archery and combat to abuse a lot of those Uruk Hai. Instead, they just shoot some arrows, swing some swords then die!


It was cool to see the difference in armour, although, why Elves who have been around for thousands and thousands of years would bother to change their armour design by that point in their races life seems odd. Unless the Galadhrim has a different armour style from those seen at the Last Alliance. Which does make sense. I wonder if the Noldor at Rivendell have their own armour design which GW is yet to show us?

HsojVvad
03-03-2009, 01:09
Oh I agree with you 100% Lewis. When I read The Battle of Helmsdeep, is was so disapointed, I was like WTF? That's it? If PJ did LotR like the books, I think it would have been a really crappy movie, boring. Don't forget, he had to make a movie for women as well, so put in a love story, like Titanic, and from the looks of it, he succeded since LotR made so much money.

You actually think many of the women would have gone to see the movies if Aragorn and Arwen were not in love? It had something for everyone.

I thought the addtion of the elves made the Battle of Helmsdeep more believable for them to surrive. Without them, how could the famrers and kids hold off 10 000 Urikhai?

Colonel Goth
03-03-2009, 03:35
A small overview of the Battles of the Hornburg (Helm's Deep) and the Pelennor Fields (Minas Tirith), because I am a sad and bored little lore-nerd =]
--------------------------------------------------------
Battle of the Hornburg:
Theoden, Eomer, Hama, Gamling, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, ~2000 men from Edoras, the original Garrison and the surrounding areas. (Reinforcements: Gandalf, Erkenbrand and 1000 infantry from the forces at the Fords of Isen and a whole forest of Hurons)

vs

10,000 Orcs, Uruk Hai, Half-orcs and goblin-men (Last two, possible meant Uruk Hai) and Many more Dunlendings.

Defenders are driven from the outer dike back to the fortress. A sortie led by Aragorn and Eomer stop an attempt to destroy the gate with a battering ram. Aragorn and Eomer rally the defenders and help them push back the ladders on the walls. Orcs sneak in through the culvert in the wall but are repulsed and the culvert blocked up by Gimli. Culvert and wall blown up by "blasting-fire" and the defenders retreat to the Glittering Caves. The horn is sounded and cavalry led by Theoden and Aragorn, followed by the remaining defenders smash through the Orc lines. At the same time Gandalf, Erkenbrand and the Infantry from the fords arrive, the orcs flee from this double onslaught but are cut off by the Hurons.
The Dunendings are terrified by Gandalf and lay down their arms and are granted amnesty after the battle.
------------------------------------------------------------
Battle of the Pelennor and Siege of Minas Tirith:

Garrison of Minas Tirith: Gandalf, Denethor (Incapacitated) Faramir (Incapacitated) Peregrin Took and Prince Imrahil of Dol Amroth (Lesser Captains include: Forlong the Fat, Hurin the Tall, Angbor the Fearless and Hirluin the Fair). ~5-6000 men from the Garrison of Minas Tirith and the Remainder of Faramir's forces in Osgiliath (This includes at least 3 companies of Guards of the Citadel and the remains of Faramir's Rangers), ~2800 men from the fiefdoms of Southern Gondor (including the Swan Knights and Men-at-arms of Dol Amroth).

The Rohirrim: Theoden, Eomer, Elfhelm (The three commanders of the three Eored) Dernhelm (Eowyn), Meriadoc Brandybuck(Lesser captains: Guthlaf - King's Standard Bearer, Dunhere - Lord of Harrowdale, Deorwine - Chief of the King's Riders) ~6000 Knights of Rohan.

The Grey Company: Aragron, Gimli, Legolas, Halbarad, Elladan, Elrohir. 2-4000 assorted men from Southern Gondor (Fiefdoms, Coastal towns, Freed corsair slaves) and 30 Rangers of the North

vs

The Witch-King of Angmar, Khamul the Easterling, the 7 other Nazgul, Gothmog (Possibly an Orc, Man - Black Numenorian or other, Nazgul or fallen Maia) the Black Serpent (Chieftain of Harad) Grond - Battering Ram. Tens of thousands of Orcs and related species (Uruk Hai, goblins Half-orcs etc) Wargs and trolls. Thousands of Easterlings (Variags, Men from Khand and Rhun etc) 18000 Haradrim and numerous Mumakil and catapults/other siege weaponary. (All in all ~200,000)

Hosts of Mordor attack Minas Tirith with severed heads and rocks. Grond attacks the gate and just before dawn destroys it and the With King enters, challenged only by Gandalf. The cock crows and the Rohirrim appear to the West. The Witch King rides off to deal with them. The Rohirrim drive the Hosts of Mordor from the Northern part of the fields, destroying siege engines and camps as they go. They face off against the Haradrim, with Theoden slaying the Black Serpent and his standard bearer. The Witch King arrives and kills Snowmane, Theoden's horse, throwing the king from it's back and fatally landing on top of him. He is defended by the warrior Dernhelm, who reveals themselves to be Eowyn, who kills the Witch King (with help from Merry using his Ancient Westernesse dagger given to him by Aragorn). Both succumb to the Black Breath. Meanwhile Gandalf and Pippin rescue the sick Faramir from the clutches of his now-completely deranged father, who self-immolates himself out of despair. Back on the battlefield, Eomer enraged by the death of his Uncle and adopted father, and the seeming death of his sister, leads his Eored in a charge against the Hosts of Mordor driving deep wedges in their lines, but they rally around the Mumakil, which the Rohirrim's horses won't go near, and counter attack and surround the Eored, cutting them off from the other two companies. Eomer orders them to circle themselves on a hill and prepare for a last stand. from here he despairs as he sees the Black Ships come sailing up the Anduin. Aragorn, the Grey company and the Men from the South, Arrive and cut a swathe in the enemy forces linking up with Eomer's forces on the hill. Between them, the 2 other Eoreds under Elfhelm and the Men of the City pushing out from Minas Tirith led by Prince Imrahil (Who had taken over command as Gandalf tended to Faramir). The remaining Orcs fled, only to be chased down or drowned in the Anduin. The Easterlings and Haradrim stood their ground and were cut down. Few escaped back to the East and South to tell of Gondor's Wrath.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also @Pheonix Blade the elves in the Two Towers are different Evles from the Last Alliance. The Last Alliance Elves are mainly the Noldor from Rivendell and the North (Led by Elrond and Gil-Galad) Where as the ones at Helm's deep are the Teleri from Lothlorien. Roughly the first are High Elves and the second are Wood Elves.

/sigh I have way too much time on my hands =/

zedeyejoe
03-03-2009, 08:35
Don't forget the Tolkien estate, had the yeah or neah to his movie I believe. They could have nixed it if they felt he was wrong, and since they didn't I assume that they agree with his vision.

Or they could have looked at the piles of money and said "Do what the hell you want, we will take the money".


But, Peter Jackson made some mistakes with screwing up the plot, yes. but they were done make the movie more appealing. ( which i strongly disagree with)

I totally agree. Know any good books written by Peter Jackson? He should stick to making films, not rewrites.


Don't forget, he had to make a movie for women as well, so put in a love story, like Titanic, and from the looks of it, he succeded since LotR made so much money.

Yes I can understand that but I was sitting with a woman whilst watching the film and she was not impressed by the love story. Mind you she is a big Tolkien fan. Was there a love story in Saving Private Ryan.

On the negative side I hated what PJ did to Eowyn (niece of King Théoden) who came across in the book as a determined character. In the film a bit of a wimp who is just waiting for the right man. Of course in the book she does fall for the right man (after a bit of false start) but you never think of her as soft.

Likewise the enfeeblement of Théoden by a spell rather than bad advice was a cop out.

Same with lighting the Beacons as a trick. If I remember it was the delivery of a red arrow that was the call for aid from Gondor.

Elves at Helmsdeep was also a cop out because one of the main themes of the book that it was a time for Men to stand up and deal with things instead of the Elder races.

But its done, no use crying over split milk. New Line Cinema at least are not happy with PJ either.

jaws900
03-03-2009, 08:40
I haven't read many of the booksbut i know a little bit about it and i fel that PJ made a awsume movie. tehere will always be a few people who don't like a movie baced on a book or comic like with Spiderman 3. Alot of people didn't like it and i have to say that i'm somewhere in the middle but it was done good.
LOTR is the same. He had to leave somethings out other wise the 12 hour long movie (Including deleted scenes) would be something line a 18 hour movie and that would just be impossible. Also cutting somethings out was a regreted but need move like with Glorfindel resucing the hobbits. They removed him to not add another charature and got arwen to do it (Which is very possible). also people like Tom and Radagast didn't need to be in the film as they made littl impact on the outsomes.

McMordain
03-03-2009, 12:19
jaws900 I think it's not the things he left out bothers most of the people who don't like the films, but the things he changed, and those changes were like from black to white. Like the characters mentioned above, or the Ents, whom went to war on their own accord in the books, while in the film they had to be tricked...

zedeyejoe
03-03-2009, 13:02
I haven't read many of the booksbut i know a little bit about it and i fel that PJ made a awsume movie.

And just think how good it would have been had he stuck with the storyline of the book, voted best book of the 20th century. No problem with trimming down to fit into 3 films but inventing new stuff? As I said, I am not aware of any best selling books by Peter Jackson.

I would be surprised if any of PJ's inventions were considered part of the good bits of the film (exception, lighting of the beacons, that was very atmospheric but totally unnecessary to the plot line).

jaws900
03-03-2009, 18:11
I remembered hereing that he was coming out of directing and the LOTR trillogy and king kong where is only ones. I guess he broken it for the Hobbit. Niot that i have read the book before so i'll be interested on what he does.

mweaver
03-03-2009, 20:00
I like the presence of the Elves at Helm's Deep. As Cherubael said, it was an effective way of demonstrating that the elves were fighting, w/o distracting from the main story line. Plus, cool scene when they arrive. I love the slightly pained, faintly bemused look on Haldir's face when muddy, grubby, stinky old Aragorn gives him a hug.

Garoth
03-03-2009, 20:25
I would be surprised if any of PJ's inventions were considered part of the good bits of the film.

I personally think that some of them are, like the ending of FOTR. I think that every single change done there was a major improvent, not only then action, but also the changed of added dialogue.

The dialogue between Frodo and Aragorn at before they are separeted is just avesome (and it has been praised amongst some of the "Tolkien purists" too), and we also get see reactions from Merry and Pippin when they realise that Frodo is about to leave.

I feel also that Boromir's final words are way better in the movie than in the books, and moving the Boromir's death from TTT to FOTR and having the whole fight happen "onscreen" and expanding it a bit (with a suitable leader for evil etc.) were all good things. IMO all that was instrumental in creating a proper ending for the FOTR movie.

Lewis
03-03-2009, 21:35
I think the tricking of the ents, the vacilations of Farimir, the arrival of the elves and the rewriting of Arwen's chracter all improved the film. JRT is a very linnear writer , strong on world creation but low on the drama and characterisation that make good cinema. If there had not been a sudden change o heart from the ents, if Faramir had easily rejected the ring (which as PJ says, they had just spent two films building up as the most desirable thing in the world.) ifa Hornburg/Helmsdeep had been the fairly unnerve wracking plod to victory full of characters you've never met before with no descernable personality traits (I could go on...) the films would have lacked drama and changes of state. I love the books but there is a reason they took so long to make it to the screen: They aren't pluck off the shelf insta-movies in many, many ways and needed the work that PJ did on them.

By the by I don't think Lotr deserves to be the greatest book of the century any more than Star Wars is the greatest film of all time or Robbie Williams's Angels is the best song of the period 1980-2005.

Nuada
03-03-2009, 21:55
I also like the development of Gollum as a character in the movies. The schizophrenic moments were one of my favourite scenes in the movie. I also don't mind that Gimili has the funny lines instead of Sam. I'm ok with the ents. Overall good.

What i didn't like with PJ though, was the pace in the LotR. When the nazgul finally close in on Frodo (Weathertop), they pause and hesitate. They turn left and right to give a good view of the amazing special effects. They've been searching for this ring for a long time, it's all they live for (or "don't live for" in their case)why don't they stab Frodo quickly and run off to give Sauron the ring?
When the balrog is chasing the fellowship in Moria, PJ cuts to a scene with stairs and goblins shooting. I know you could argue that the balrog has taken a different route, but i got the impression he was drinking a cup of tea watching them. Also lots of goblins surround the fellowship in moria, then stop. They pull a few scary faces. Why don't they attack?
For me it ruined the drama of the moria escape

zedeyejoe
03-03-2009, 22:04
If there had not been a sudden change o heart from the ents

Urr, thats the point Ents don't do sudden changes of heart. When you have the lifetime of trees (and very old trees at that), you don't do 'hasty'.

But that being said, everyone is different. I bet there are tons of people who prefer the LoTR films to the books.

mweaver
03-03-2009, 23:08
"Also lots of goblins surround the fellowship in moria, then stop. They pull a few scary faces. Why don't they attack?"

Goblins like to play with their food.

Lewis
03-03-2009, 23:10
Urr, thats the point Ents don't do sudden changes of heart. When you have the lifetime of trees (and very old trees at that), you don't do 'hasty'.

But that being said, everyone is different. I bet there are tons of people who prefer the LoTR films to the books.

Y'know that was my worst example. It kind of stuck in mr craw at the time of first watching for that very reason although I accept it from a plot point of view.

McMordain
04-03-2009, 08:07
JRT is a very linnear writer , strong on world creation but low on the drama and characterisation that make good cinema.

Well maybe I like the books because they are linear. I don't mind simple characters, I think they are easier to identify with. Well that's what I think.

As for Faramir, I think that was the point, that he rejected the Ring right away. And this showed that he is better man than Boromir or Denethor. That he can resist the Ring.

Mc

Vepr
04-03-2009, 21:04
I enjoy the book for what it is and I also enjoy the movie for what it is. They are different things in my mind. I think it would have been difficult to do a truly faithful movie to the books without each movie being 6 hours. Somethings like Tom Bombadil would have had people who did not read the books scratching their heads although I wish they would have done something with the Barrow-downs.

Even though some of the changes seem arbitrary and without purpose I am sure they were made with eye towards pace and suspense etc. No whether you agree with outcome is something different but I don't think he made the changes on a whim.

I do think it would interesting if someone did a cartoon version that was really faithful to the books. Doing a really big expensive movie version that would make a handful of rabid book fans happy is to big a gamble but a cartoon on the other hand that is not goofy might just work.

Nuada
04-03-2009, 21:16
goofy might just work.

Yes, goofy would be brilliant as Aragorn :p

On a more serious note; yes i agree Vepr. A dark animation that's true to the book and detailed would look great

Steam_Giant
04-03-2009, 21:33
Doing a really big expensive movie version that would make a handful of rabid book fans happy is to big a gamble but a cartoon on the other hand that is not goofy might just work.



On a more serious note; yes i agree Vepr. A dark animation that's true to the book and detailed would look great

Im no expert but would an animation cost that much less than a live action film ? A dark animation would be cool, lifting some elements from Mr Bakshi's film perhaps. Personally I love the BBC radio play and would be interested in hearing a new unabridged version, If the quality of the acting was as good as the original.

Vepr
04-03-2009, 21:40
Im no expert but would an animation cost that much less than a live action film ? A dark animation would be cool, lifting some elements from Mr Bakshi's film perhaps. Personally I love the BBC radio play and would be interested in hearing a new unabridged version, If the quality of the acting was as good as the original.

While not cheap they generally do not approach the 100 million plus of the big budget movies. You could also do and introductory one and see how it received before finishing the rest. You could do them in twelve 1 hour installments maybe. :)

mweaver
04-03-2009, 21:41
The old radio play was well done, I agree.

zedeyejoe
04-03-2009, 21:43
As for Faramir, I think that was the point, that he rejected the Ring right away. And this showed that he is better man than Boromir or Denethor. That he can resist the Ring.

Well said. Although given a vision of power he can have, he rejects it as a trap (just as Gandalf and the Elves do).

Vepr
04-03-2009, 21:51
Well said. Although given a vision of power he can have, he rejects it as a trap (just as Gandalf and the Elves do).

I think Jackson was also trying to play on the story line of how desperately Faramir wanted to please his father by having him take them at first instead of just releasing them.

Vepr
04-03-2009, 21:54
One thing that I really could have done without in the movies was Gimli as comic relief. The only time it even half way worked for me is when he bumped the bow when Legolas was firing a warning shot. I think if they would have kept the humor around him very dark it might have worked but really it should not have been done at all.

Phoenix Blaze
04-03-2009, 22:34
Comic relief Gimli is sometimes funny, when he's acting like a loud, characterful dwarf, but when he's being silly, it just sucks.

I for one really liked Faramir's new story arc, where he's trying to please his father. It just makes you like Faramir more, and Denethor even less.

Lewis
04-03-2009, 22:37
Well said. Although given a vision of power he can have, he rejects it as a trap (just as Gandalf and the Elves do).

Which doesn't make for a very interesting character development. Chracters in films need journeys to go on emotionally speaking and more complex than personalities than "good" to engage us. Gandalf and the elves have other journeys to go on but without the rewrite Faramir's on screen story would be "There was a nice man. Later he was set on fire."

I totally agree that the Gimli comic thing was embarassing though. I hate to see a dwarf become an elf's whipping boy.

Znail
04-03-2009, 22:52
I think the tricking of the ents, the vacilations of Farimir, the arrival of the elves and the rewriting of Arwen's chracter all improved the film. JRT is a very linnear writer , strong on world creation but low on the drama and characterisation that make good cinema. If there had not been a sudden change o heart from the ents, if Faramir had easily rejected the ring (which as PJ says, they had just spent two films building up as the most desirable thing in the world.) ifa Hornburg/Helmsdeep had been the fairly unnerve wracking plod to victory full of characters you've never met before with no descernable personality traits (I could go on...) the films would have lacked drama and changes of state. I love the books but there is a reason they took so long to make it to the screen: They aren't pluck off the shelf insta-movies in many, many ways and needed the work that PJ did on them.

By the by I don't think Lotr deserves to be the greatest book of the century any more than Star Wars is the greatest film of all time or Robbie Williams's Angels is the best song of the period 1980-2005.

Actualy, I think the Ent thing was in the book. Althou I think it was slightly diffrent, ie, they wasnt actualy done voting yet and the incident decided them instead.

Faramir was alot better done in the book. The thing is that in the book so was Faramir the wiser and moraly stronger of the brothers, althou he didnt get any respect from his father who had Boromir as his favorit. Remember that the books are pretty long so the characters are more fleshed out not less.

There wasnt anything in the movie that added to the drama of the battle of the hornburg/helmsdeep compared to the book. The only thing added was the arrival of the elves, but there were ofcourse plenty of things removed too, so the book was no less dramatic there.

The main reason the LotR havent been made into movies before is the long story, special effects and huge budget required. The 3 pretty long films are about as short you can make the story without having to rewrite it.

VeriNasti
04-03-2009, 22:57
Thats true - Faramir was less respected as he kind of disagreed with Denethor
the movies are pretty long and even the extended movies still don't have all the information from the books

HsojVvad
04-03-2009, 23:00
Well maybe I like the books because they are linear. I don't mind simple characters, I think they are easier to identify with. Well that's what I think.

As for Faramir, I think that was the point, that he rejected the Ring right away. And this showed that he is better man than Boromir or Denethor. That he can resist the Ring.

Mc

I thought in the books, Farmir was corupted by the Ring. Darn I forget too much, time to go out and buy the books and reread again.

VeriNasti
04-03-2009, 23:05
Boromir was the one who was corrupted - he tried to steal it from Frodo at Amon Hen before the Urukhai arrived - then he was killed by Lutrz

Lewis
04-03-2009, 23:09
Faramir was alot better done in the book. The thing is that in the book so was Faramir the wiser and moraly stronger of the brothers, althou he didnt get any respect from his father who had Boromir as his favorit. Remember that the books are pretty long so the characters are more fleshed out not less.

There wasnt anything in the movie that added to the drama of the battle of the hornburg/helmsdeep compared to the book. The only thing added was the arrival of the elves, but there were ofcourse plenty of things removed too, so the book was no less dramatic there.
.

But that makes Faramir less interesting because his character has no conflict to overcome, as I said no journey. A story about one brother who's very good and one who's bad isn't great narrative, it's a fairy tale. This is fine for an epic pastiche of early medieval European sagas but it doesn't make for a good for a film meant to feature realistic characters.

Helmsdeep in the film runs far closer to defeat for the forces of good than it does in the books ergo more exciting.

Znail
04-03-2009, 23:45
But that makes Faramir less interesting because his character has no conflict to overcome, as I said no journey. A story about one brother who's very good and one who's bad isn't great narrative, it's a fairy tale. This is fine for an epic pastiche of early medieval European sagas but it doesn't make for a good for a film meant to feature realistic characters.

Helmsdeep in the film runs far closer to defeat for the forces of good than it does in the books ergo more exciting.

Faramir still had the conflict with his father. There was also the parts that were left out, like how to resolve his relationship towards Aragorn and his role after the return of the king, remember that Faramir was the ruler of Gondor after the death of his father and brother. And lets not forget his romance with Eowyn. Him essentialy being an apprentice of Gandalf also adds a bit to his character.

How does it run closer to defeat in the film? The actual battle flows more or less the same. The main difference is that in the film so does some of the defenders look like elves. There is still a last seemingly doomed charge that are saved when Gandalf shows up. Its just that its differnt men he brought and thus more unexpected. Oh, and the fleeing Orks becomes tree fertilizer.

McMordain
05-03-2009, 09:58
Which doesn't make for a very interesting character development. Chracters in films need journeys to go on emotionally speaking and more complex than personalities than "good" to engage us. Gandalf and the elves have other journeys to go on but without the rewrite Faramir's on screen story would be "There was a nice man. Later he was set on fire."

I totally agree that the Gimli comic thing was embarassing though. I hate to see a dwarf become an elf's whipping boy.


But that makes Faramir less interesting because his character has no conflict to overcome, as I said no journey. A story about one brother who's very good and one who's bad isn't great narrative, it's a fairy tale. This is fine for an epic pastiche of early medieval European sagas but it doesn't make for a good for a film meant to feature realistic characters.

Helmsdeep in the film runs far closer to defeat for the forces of good than it does in the books ergo more exciting.

Well I always thought that the Lotr is a fairy tale... The good guys go on a journey to defeat the evil guys. Also isn't Tolkien used early medieval European sagas as the source of his books? And I think it's really debatable what is realistic in a fantasy.
Faramirs story is a bit more complicated than that.

Actually I liked the comical Gimli and his gags with Legolas. I think it showed pretty well their building friendship.

And I agree with Znail, the battle at Helms Deep is not so different in the books, expect of the elves, and some character swaps.

Mc

mweaver
05-03-2009, 12:27
The first time I read the book's after the film, I decided that the TT film wasn't as far off with Faramir as I had originally thought. The film drags out his temptation a bit, where JRRT dealt with it in a line or two, but he was tempted in the book too.

Probably the things I like least about the films are a couple of the silly super-elf moments (killing the mumak in RotK being the main example), persistently using Gimli as a comic relief character, and the Legion of the Dead being so overwhelming. But in 9+ hours of film, that's not a long list! There are so many things I love about those films...

borithan
05-03-2009, 18:28
without the rewrite Faramir's on screen story would be "There was a nice man. Later he was set on fire."Surely every film needs someone that can be summed up like that?



Faramir was alot better done in the book. The thing is that in the book so was Faramir the wiser and moraly stronger of the brothers, althou he didnt get any respect from his father who had Boromir as his favorit. Remember that the books are pretty long so the characters are more fleshed out not less.Hmm... don't remember Faramir being more fleshed out, but it did change what the story was about. Faramir rejecting the ring (in my opinion) is less about Faramir than it is about the tragedy of Denathor and Boromir. He is the less favoured son, but he is the one that is strong enough to resist the ring, highlighting the apparently stronger/more respected brother and father's weakness and failure. Even though he was less "noble" in his standing he was a more noble person. Also, I disagree the change made Faramir a more likeable character. The whole thing of wanting to please his father just made him come across like some whiny git in the film... the whole point was that Faramir did what was right, regardless of what he was "meant" to do by law and family tie. A less fleshed out, more two dimensional character, yes, but I would see him as more likeable than the one we saw in the film.

A character who was more likeable in the film was Aragorn... as seperate from Strider (yes, I know they are one and the same, but I really felt that he became this arrogant chump in the third book, after revealing he was the King, so I separate them. Strider was one of my favourite characters... Aragorn was not). In the film they made a better job of keeping him the same person even though he had been revealed as the king (though I guess maybe the change in personality upon accepting his destiny was entirely deliberate in the book).

The removal of Tom Bombadil I approved of massively, never having understood the point of it in the book (and it really wouldn't have worked in a film), and doing to same to the Scouring of the Shire also made sense. While I didn't dislike it in the book it is really out of place (the main part of the story having ended and then suddenly we have a battle again, even if a minor one...) and really wouldn't have fitted in the film. In fact I think they should have cut more off the end, just ended at the point when Aragorn bows to Frodo. Yes, I am sure lots of purists would have hated having the leaving of Frodo et all being cut out but it really didn't work in the film. It needed a more appropriate ending than the wandering mess that occured ("Ah, so its going to end now... Oh, no its not... Ah now... er... no" for about 20 minutes. It mattered in the book, but it wasn't needed in the film.) Most of the other changes I considered totally minor. The only thing that really bugged me were the battles, particularly in RotK. The epic scale that I imagined was no way depicted in the film... ok, Mordor's army was big, but I always remember the point being that the armies brought together at Minas Tirith and the Pellanor fields (particularly the latter) were the largest seen for a long time, yet they were still massively outnumbered by their foes. Instead we get a garrison of about 85 guards taking on the orks (though the charge of the Riders of Rohan was cool... far more on the scale I had imagined the battle), and then someone organises a small picnic group to take on the might of Mordor at the black gates. The battle of helms deep was also slightly disappointing, but not too much. Really I think the FotR suffers least from this (no big battles anyway, and the fight at Amon Hen is pretty much the scale I imagined it), and because of this is probably the one that felt the best.

Znail
05-03-2009, 19:29
(...) and then someone organises a small picnic group to take on the might of Mordor at the black gates.

This is actualy on the book too, althou better explained. They only brought a limited but elite force to the gates. So while limited in numbers, so were they they best the allies could muster. The entire idea wasnt to actualy win, but to act as distraction to help Frodo. I dont remember for sure if its in the movie, but in the book so did Aragorn use the Palanthir to taunt Sauron as well. I dont think the battle was quite as uneven in the book thou as most of Saurons forces had been spent on the attack on Minas Tirith. With the help of the Eagles so did they hold their own I think. Infact, I think that was one reason they didnt bring more people, to make the enemy come out after them. If they had brought everyone then they would just have had a siege instead of a battle. And a battle would be more distracting for Sauron.

borithan
05-03-2009, 19:43
This is actualy on the book too, althou better explained. They only brought a limited but elite force to the gates.Hmm.... you may be right, but I certainly had this image of a very large force going off to the black gates, sort of throwing everything at Mordor to further encourage Sauron to keep his eyes there.



So while limited in numbers, so were they they best the allies could muster.Surely more than the 300 odd guys (as far as I could make out) that appear in the film?



The entire idea wasnt to actualy win, but to act as distraction to help Frodo.Oh, yes, I know that. Still, the bigger a distraction is the more likely it is to work.



I dont remember for sure if its in the movie, but in the book so did Aragorn use the Palanthir to taunt Sauron as well.No, they didn't, as far as I know. I think Aragorn just announces himself at the gate... may be wrong though.



I dont think the battle was quite as uneven in the book thou as most of Saurons forces had been spent on the attack on Minas Tirith. With the help of the Eagles so did they hold their own I think. Infact, I think that was one reason they didnt bring more people, to make the enemy come out after them.Hmm... may have been wrong, but I certainly remember it being that even though sauron's forces had been reduced at Minas Tirith they still massively outnumbered even the large army the allies brought together (futher building Mordor up to be this force that was unbeatable in conventional terms. 1) Sauron cannot be killed unless the ring is destroyed 2) even when Men bring together a massive army they are still outnumbered and 3) even when they win against the odds they have not dealt that serious a blow to Mordor and Sauron, and never really can)

Znail
05-03-2009, 19:56
Ah, they were deffinitly outnumbered. And yes, they were alot more then 300 odd guys. I think it was more on the scale of 3000-5000. But they also got some reinforcement in the form of the Eagles. I think the battle was actualy winding down when Frodo announce himself. I think the good side actualy won the battle right there due to Sauron taking his eye away from the battle and pulled the Nazghuls back too.

But it was clear in the books that the good side simply didnt have the numbers to invade Mordor.

The Muster of Rohan
05-03-2009, 19:58
I dont remember for sure if its in the movie, but in the book so did Aragorn use the Palanthir to taunt Sauron as well.

Yes.


"I have looked in the stone of Orthanc...it was a bitter struggle, and the weariness is slow to pass. I spoke no word to him, and in the end I wrenched the stone to my will. That alone he will find hard to endure. And he beheld me...to know that I lived and walked the earth was a blow to his heart, I deem; for he knew it not till now...Sauron has not forgotten Isildur and the sword of Elendil...I showed the blade re-forged to him. He is not so mighty yet that he is above fear; nay, doubt ever gnaws him."

Aragorn, RotK V, ii: "The Passing of the Grey Company" (abridged)

He used the Palantir before leaving Helm's Deep with the Dunedain. It led him on his route through the mountains to Erech.

Captain Plowman
05-03-2009, 20:33
In the RotK film (at least, in the extended edition), Aragorn uses the Palantir at Minas Tirith, after the battle, to talk to Sauron and show him Anduril. It's at this point that he drops and breaks the Evenstar, perhaps symbolising this is the point Arwen chooses mortality?

McMordain
05-03-2009, 22:44
A big army left Minas Tirith, but Aragorn left some of them at Osgiliath, and the not so brave were sent to Cair Adros, if I remember right.