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View Full Version : Should there be a few more generic magic items?



Coram_Boy
01-03-2009, 22:37
I am really not sure which side of this arguement I should take. On the one hand, I know that people who play armies like Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarfs (of which there are more than you might think*) can suffer a bit with only choice of dispelscrolls/powerstones as arcane items. perhaps a bound spell enchanted item for d6 strength 3 or 4 hits at 24inch range - something pretty generic perhaps, or mabye some items like a 4+ ward which are common at around 45 points but for 10 points extra could be included? On the other hand, this could make items in armybooks unneeded, which is also bad. Opinions appreciated!

Bloodknight
01-03-2009, 22:50
Chaos Dwarfs at least have some items of their own.
As a DoW player, I don't miss arcane items at all. Having only scrolls and stones keeps you from making experiments with mages that won't work well, and the powerstones are actually pretty handy for an army that has to waste one hero slot on a wimpy character (and doesn't get that slot for free like Brets).
I'd like to see something that works for fighting heroes, and one or two bound spells. A proper ward save would be good, although I think that 5+ would be enough. A generic 4+ sounds good to me as a DoW player, but I guess there's at least one type of hero that really should not have something like that. Ogre Tyrants or whatnot.

Misfratz
01-03-2009, 23:10
I think the lack of an army book is the real problem for DoW, not the lack of generic magic items, and so is not germane to a discussion of generic magic items.

You have to be pretty careful about generic magic items, because everyone can take them. GW use magic items to add a certain amount of individuality to each army, in terms of specific strengths and weaknesses and adding too many good generic magic items runs counter to that.

So, for that reason, I would say no.

chivalrous
01-03-2009, 23:28
The generic items should be very very basic and unrestricted. so +1 to hit, +1 Strength. +1 attack, +1 armour save.
Basic options for people who want a slight edge somewhere but don't want to or have the points to spare for more fancy effects.

Where your suggestion for a ward save is concerned; as you say, many armies already have a 4+ ward device so why give them access to yet another one? On the other hand, there are armies that don't and that might be very much due to the balance and design of that list. No army should have access to more than one cheap 4+ ward save. Dark Elves have the Pendant and the Armour of Eternal Servitude, High Elves have the armour of protection and the Vambraces of Defence, Empire have the Holy Relic. Do you really want to give these armies access to another one?

I've thought that it might be nice sometimes to have access to a basic piece of armour that gives +1 to toughness but that could be quite sick on something like an Ogre tyrant or a Vampire and somewhat pointless on an Elf.

I used to think that having an item that could add +1 to casting attempts would be a nice addition to my old Dark Elves, since High Elves could do something similar with the Staff of Sorcery and dispelling.

I'd have quite liked to see the old Standard of Shielding make an appearance. It gave every model in the unit carrying it +1 to their armour save. Relatively harmeless on something like Corsairs or Halberdiers but can you imagine a unit of Chaos knights carrying it? Grail Knights?

I can think of two items that would fit into the category of being both basic and not particularly broken regardless of who or what was carrying it;
A talisman that gives Magic Resistance 1
A piece of light armour that caused -1 to hit the wearer in close combat.

I'm considering the suggestion of the bound item as a possible third.

sroblin
02-03-2009, 00:03
Although I generally like the idea of broader basic magic item list, it is kept so minimal because having a useful magic item that would be a reasonable bonus for 90% of armies might end up being totally broken for 10%. (Like the Ogre Tyrant or Vampire example above.) The game designers want the army's magic item selections to siginifcantly determine their character in battle, and if they have too many options in common that makes things harder. As it is, a lot of the basic items were duplicated between army lists in 6th edition (I'm not seeing that as much in 7th.) For instance, I like cheap +1 power dice items and generally don't think they're too powerful; but game designers offer them to say High Elves because they are meant to be a powerful magic race, keep them away from the Empire because they aren't, and also withhold them from Lizardmen because they are already very good and giving them an additional option would b excessive ontop of all the other upgrades. In theory anyway, but there you go...

Items that give upgrades to entire units are the best ones, IMO. I would always want to take the standard of shielding were it available. I don't think its effects are negligible even on infantry with light armor. Loved taking it in the Dark Omen computer gam.

The issue with Dogs of War and Chaos Dwarves isn't that the list of common items should be better so that they can be more viable, it is that they (and in particular, Dogs of War) need their lists upgraded and including their own appropriate selection of magic item. That would be the way to 'fix' the problem, but GW appears to be uninterested in pursuing that course of action.

Spirit
02-03-2009, 02:51
I'm considering the suggestion of the bound item as a possible third.

If you give a common bound item that has a use, you can guarantee it will be featured in every army with more than a lvl 1 scroll caddy. I do not think a bound common would be a good idea.

ChaosVC
02-03-2009, 03:18
It still doesn't solve any problem even if gw creates more generic magic items, you are only giving army with their own army books more choices. The problem with dow and CD is that they need their own book.

rodmillard
02-03-2009, 03:33
I can think of a few items that should make the generic list, rather than being on all (or almost all) armies' list; the facility to vary generic item costs is being used a lot more in 7th ed, meaning that the broken combinations can be dealt with by simply upping the cost for items in certain armies.

Talisman/Banner of MR 1
Weapon which does flaming damage (and nothing else)
One shot enchanted Healing Potion (restores 1 wound)
Armour of -1 to hit
Arcane item of +1 to casting rolls
One shot arcane item to re-roll the result on the miscast table

ahb835
02-03-2009, 03:51
One of the difficulties with more magic items is (so I am told) the threat of Herohammer, which I think was 4th edition. Too many magic items and not enough playtesting of combinations; it was possible to assemble essentially unbeatable heroes who could take out entire units in a turn.

Recent editions have balanced this better - but common magic items have the playtesting problem of having to be checked against every army, so anything with more than a whiff of power potentially spells trouble somewhere.

I too would like a little more variety in magic items, don't get me wrong, but coming up with something that's strong enough to be used, but weak enough not to cause trouble -- that's not so easy!

Leogun_91
02-03-2009, 08:28
The masters sword 10pts gives +1WS (this is just the rune of striking from the dwarfs but without the ability to combine it with other items, it can save you´r hero (use it on my Dslayers all the time to get alot of things to hit me on 5+) or give you an edge in a challenge, not overpowered in any way.

I second the Magic resistintance talisman
Talisman of warding (or something) 15-20pts gives MR1

I also like the Magic weapon that gives flaming attacks
Sword of fire 5pts Grants flaming attacks

FredNo.1
02-03-2009, 09:29
all armies should have the same magic items, maybe a few no super ones as unique, would simplify and make the game more balanced.

everyone would have the reverse ward instead of jst DE, noone would get the any double roll miscast item and so on.

selone
02-03-2009, 11:46
I think so even small things like blade of superior striking 5 points +1 I , a sword that did flaming attacks but nothing else etc.

Ward.
02-03-2009, 12:35
or mabye some items like a 4+ ward which are common at around 45 points but for 10 points extra could be included?

I'd honestly prefer to see most 4+ ward saves removed from the game.

badgeraddict
02-03-2009, 13:59
I think the generic magic item list is fine as it is.

I only really use it for dispel scrolls, warbanner and sword of might anyway. Nothing else there seems worthwhile for me.

I can appreciate why DOW would need more magic items than are presented.

chivalrous
02-03-2009, 14:10
If you give a common bound item that has a use, you can guarantee it will be featured in every army with more than a lvl 1 scroll caddy. I do not think a bound common would be a good idea.

On the other hand a D6 S3 magic missile with a casting value of 3 isn't spectacularly powerful and would still be competing for an enchanted item slot.
It would have its uses against skirmishers and occasionally will be lucky enough to take out a model and drop a unit's static combat resolution but it's not a tactic you could depend on.

Nor would it be the first common magic item to appear in every army you come up against. The War Banner, Enchanted shield and Dispell scrolls crop up everywhere.



One shot enchanted Healing Potion (restores 1 wound)


*applauds* nice and simple!
It would need to come with further restrictions, limiting the bearer to when he/she can drink it. I think the High Elf equivalent may only be used at the start of any phase and may not be used on a character reduced to zero wounds in a previous phase, it's not a resurrection potion.
It crosses my mind though that like a +1 Toughness item, this potion could be somewhat dispiriting against a very tough opponent, like the regenerating Pendant Dreadlord, Dwarf Lord or Chaos Lord.


...Too many magic items and not enough playtesting of combinations...
<snip>
...coming up with something that's strong enough to be used, but weak enough not to cause trouble -- that's not so easy!

Well said.

snyggejygge
02-03-2009, 14:27
I myself would prefer a broader common items list, say perhaps 3 times as big & A LOT less race specific items, this would help us get armybooks out faster (less to playtest) & would also make the armies more balanced to each other, no silly Ring/Book of Hoeth, no Pendant of Khaeleth etc etc, just make a few unique items for each race (about 10) which really focuses on what the race should do.

Some common items I would like to see:
Weapons:
Basic Flaming Weapon
Blessed weapon giving WS 10
+2A
+2S
ASF
D3 Wounds
Killing Blow Weapon
Ignore Armour saves weapon

Armour
Basic Armour giving 2+ save which cannot be improved
-1 to hit in combat
Heavy armour with Re-roll armoursave
Immunity to KB & Poison

Talismans:
MR 1 (can be stacked)
5+ Ward
4+ Ward vs ranged attacks

Arcane Items
+1 To cast
+1 Powerdice
Bound Spell
Destroy Spell Scroll
Re-roll a single dice when casting spell (not able to prevent miscast, 1 use only)
Ignore first miscast

Enchanted Items:
+1 Dispeldice
+1 LD (max 10)
Healing potion (either restore all wounds or 1 lost wound, 1 use only)
Item that allows a non wizard to take Arcane items

Banners:
Immunity to Psychology
MR 1 or 2
Add + D3 to charge range
Gives unit poisoned attacks

theunwantedbeing
02-03-2009, 14:52
I dont see a lot of need for additional common magical items.

What I do see an opening for is something more along the lines of one use only items that are fairly cheap and have a limited effect.

eg.
A magical ring that contains a power level 3 one use only bound spell, that inflicts a st3 hit on everyone in base contact, for 10points
Something seemingly weak and ineffective, but potentially useful.

A magical suit of armour that grants +1 toughness on a roll of a 6 for 1 turn.

An arcane item that grants +1 to cast for a single spell for say...5pts.

As well as perhaps a small number of additional common items avialable to each race, that are more race specific magical weapons.
eg.
for Bretonnians a common magical Lance that gives +1 weaponskill and initiutive +10pts
for High Elves a common magical Spear that grants the bearer +2 weaponskill +10pts
for Wood Elves a common magical Gladeguard Longbow that has +6" of range +10pts

Nothing hugely useful, but worth taking in certain situations, mostly because it's so cheap. Take the talisman of protection as an example, a 6+ save is almost always worthless, but if you have the spare points you may as well take it if you haven't got a ward save as it's better than nothing.

Common items are common for a reason, they arent hugely powerful but they are the most numerous items in the warhammer world.
There are no doubt thousands of talismans of protection of some shape or form, but there may only be perhaps 12 items in the entire warhammer world that grant a 4+ ward save, similarly a biting blade is going to be fairly common, no doubt there's likely to be 1 in every major stockpile of weapons, but a weapon that totally ignores armour save is going to be very rare and there might only be a handful of them in existence.

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 15:23
I myself would prefer a broader common items list, say perhaps 3 times as big & A LOT less race specific items, this would help us get armybooks out faster (less to playtest)

Smells like 5th edition, and it wasn't a good idea back then. Actually, it would need more playtesting because these items interact differently with different heroes/armies.

My opinions on that list:



Some common items I would like to see:
Weapons:
Basic Flaming Weapon

Good idea. Points costs would still have to be army specific, because that would be a lot better on an S5 hero than an S4 one.


Blessed weapon giving WS 10

Good. Still a lot better on anything that is not <S5


+2A

Khorne Lord vs Empire Captain....


+2S

S5 heroes get a lot more out of this.


ASF

God, no....that shouldn't be in the game in the first place.


D3 Wounds

Nice.


Killing Blow Weapon

Also nice.


Ignore Armour saves weapon


No. There's a reason why most armies don't have this.


Armour
Basic Armour giving 2+ save which cannot be improved

My Tomb King would like this. Enverybody else will probably not care. Also, a 2+ save Wood Elf on a Dragon looks a bit wrong.


-1 to hit in combat

Not a fan because this can lead to models hitting characters on a 6. It's ok for trolls or something with a pretty low WS.


Heavy armour with Re-roll armoursave

Again, too hero-hammery. There are many armies that could build very much "unkillable" heroes with this. Frankly, I think that not even Dwarfs and Elves should have it.


Immunity to KB & Poison

That's a nice one.

Talismans:

MR 1 (can be stacked)

This is a very good idea.


5+ Ward

So is this.


4+ Ward vs ranged attacks

Why not, as long as it doesn't count for mounts.

Arcane Items

+1 To cast

Yeah, why not. It's a lot worse than +1 to dispel, and the armies that have access to an item like that rarely take it for that reason.


+1 Powerdice

I think some kind of familiar that gives +1PD and +1DD should be there for everybody.

Bound Spell

Destroy Spell Scroll

Yep.


Re-roll a single dice when casting spell (not able to prevent miscast, 1 use only)

Yep.


Ignore first miscast

No. This should be a skill for only the most able mages, not an item. And frankly, I think the game could do without it anyway.

Enchanted Items:

+1 Dispeldice

See familiar.


+1 LD (max 10)

No. LD scores are like them for a reason. You'd probably find this on almost every general if it were available.


Healing potion (either restore all wounds or 1 lost wound, 1 use only)

I'd limit it to 1 wound. Just look at the difference between a Tyrant and some 2 wound hero...


Item that allows a non wizard to take Arcane items

I wouldn't like to see that. Playtesting the other options would be hard enough, I think they'd fail there at the latest...

Banners:

Immunity to Psychology

This is also getting a bit out of hand currently. I don't think there should be even more of it.


MR 1 or 2

Yeah, why not.


Add + D3 to charge range

I think this should be Infantry only.


Gives unit poisoned attacks

No. You'd start seeing people use this on Ogres with two handweapons due to attack spam, while many other units wouldn't derive good use from it, I think.

sroblin
02-03-2009, 16:03
In general the more potent the effects are being suggested here, the more likely they are to be unbalancing, or breaking into some races niche protection and so forth. The most reasonable suggestions IMO are Leogun's; +1 to initiative, +1 WS, so forth. Things that are moderately useful, (at the very least you get magic attacks) for everyone but not super powerful.

We can talk about returning to the 5th edition paradigm of a massive magic item list, but that could only occur in a new edition of the game. And which setup is better (small list of low-powered items or large list of high powered items) can certainly be debated.

Dokushin
02-03-2009, 17:17
All I'm seeing when I read this is a T5 S5 Oldblood, now with a -1 rerollable armor save and attacks that ignore armor; and a Slaan Mage-Priest that gets a free die with every spell and knows a whole lore, now with +1 to cast, an extra die in the pool (remember that's going to become 2), and the ability to ignore two miscasts instead of one.

The stuff that's in common right now is the stuff that's really hard to make broken. Even something as simple as +1 PD to the pool can get gross when the mage is throwing an extra die at every spell already, and stuff like re-rollable armor saves can be madness.

Urgat
02-03-2009, 17:41
No. LD scores are like them for a reason. You'd probably find this on almost every general if it were available.

I got to admit back in 5th edition, my goblin general would never leave the warcamp without his beloved crown of command :p

There used to be a healing potion iirc, was made with griffon blood, would give back D3 wounds. Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

Sheena Easton
02-03-2009, 18:23
A larger selection of cheap and cheerful magic items or one-off "novelty" items would be good.

I always used to give at least one Goblin Boss the Copper Sigil Sword (+1I, 5pts) which was hardly devastating, mostly utterly useless but did give the unit the chance to at least wound those nasty Wraiths that were slaughtering them. Though another of my favourites (Languisher Sword) I believe is now army specific and costs 4 times as much as it did back then...

So stuff like:

Spear Of Swiftness (+1I)
Club Of Smiting (one use only, may inflict D3 hits on a single model in base contact instead of attacking normally, roll of "1" also wounds bearer)
Ring Of Bling (contains bound spell that causes D3 SD3 hits, one use only)
Rigid Rod (6+ Ward save against Magical attacks)
Disc Of Fabulousness (+1WS)
Banner Of Blandness (reroll failed LD test, one use only)
Unsightly Anklet (+1 to cast)
etc





There used to be a healing potion iirc, was made with griffon blood, would give back D3 wounds. Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

There was one army specific one that gave back D3 wounds (from one of the later supplements or books), a Healing Potion that gave back all wounds lost (for 50 points) and an identical Skaven only version called Sklam or something - the latter pair were 50pts IIRC...

Dr. Acula
02-03-2009, 18:24
As much as people will disagree when I say this - I liked the selection in Herohammer. You could make some insanely powerful combinations, but that was due to the fact that people were allowed 1/2/3/4 items, not a points total. I had a game a while back with my brother using the 4th ed magic and magic items, but modern points totals. Lords could take 3 items totaling 100 points, heroes 2 totaling 50. Apart from the obvious problems where a rule had changed in its function in the newer edition, it worked pretty well and was a great laugh, with both armies having access to hundreds of magic items, but still having their own unique ones as well.

Chicago Slim
02-03-2009, 18:37
DOW have lots of unique magic items-- they just come with characters, is all (Regiments of Renown...)

sroblin
02-03-2009, 19:07
RoR characters more often than not are not very effective for what you pay for them. The same unfortunately goes for their magic items (or too often, lack thereof.) The special characters are a bit better, at least. But it is not a solution for the lack of options available to the standard characters in list.

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 19:25
The special characters usually suck below 3K, though. They are not that expensive, but Lorenzo sucks horribly, and the other ones cannot reasonably be played at 2K because they use more than one Lord/hero slot, which together with the mandatory paymaster makes the army suffer.

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:32
there should be more magic items period. general and army specific. some armies have a very limited list, whereas others have one (or several) to deal with each army. It would create more variation, which can only be a good thing, as tbh we all know what our opponents are likely to take 9 times out of 10

Bloodknight
02-03-2009, 19:36
I doubt that it would create more variation. The best combinations crystallize pretty quickly, and they are what gets used.
Example:
Tomb Kings have quite a lot of magic weapons. The only ones you'll see on the table are the Destroyer of Eternities (with Collar of Shapesh) or the Flail of Skulls (with collar or Golden Ankhra).

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:47
you'd have more "killer combos" with more variation, so it should work. Just as long as the writers are careful not to just put a load of throw away ones in along with some ridiculous ones to make up the numbers. They need to have a point

The SkaerKrow
03-03-2009, 14:43
Personally, I'd rather see a 15pt Enchanted Item that makes all of the bearer's (not their mount's) non-magical attacks count as Flaming. A magic weapon that gives your Flaming attacks with no further benefit is going to be tremendously weak, and won't really do much to counter regenerating Hydras/Vampires/Tyrions. Making it so that the character's mundane attacks become Flaming by way of something other than a magical weapon still allows them to take and use mundane weapons and therefore remain reasonably effective.

Condottiere
03-03-2009, 16:52
I guess it's my turn.

Personally, I'm torn. DoW do need more magic items, the other army books would benefit from a few more cheap ones. Balancing the varied needs is a tough proposition.

Maybe two to three more items per category wouldn't hurt, if they had only minor bonuses. For more powerful game effects, Tileans would have to be satisfied with relics.

Coram_Boy
03-03-2009, 17:38
Quite frankly, if there was a 5pts magic sword which counted as a hand weapon and nothing else, I would buy it. 5 points for magic attacks with parry bonus? yes please. not overpowered IMO, but not weak, and it's a cheap way to get magic attacks.

Cypher, the Emperor
04-03-2009, 00:55
Well, since DoW isn't a legal army anymore, and you can't really use them outside of friendly games, then DoW actually have magic items now (the ones from the Italian campaign).

And CD have their own magic items.