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TroyJPerez
02-03-2009, 03:01
Friend of mine is talking me into taking a Chaos Dragon to a tournament saying I need it to compete. Now I know chaos has almost nothing for shooting, and only an average magic phase, but is making up for lack of mobility and shooting with a Dragon overkill? I am just looking for opinions and comment. Also does anyone know how much they mark you down for at tournaments comp score wise for bringing a dragon?

Jericho
02-03-2009, 03:12
A number of points.

Taking a Dragon is not cheesy. It's a massive investment that will be very useful some of the time, and with many armies either ITP or able to pump it full of cannonballs, it's not always going to be a gamebreaker.

There are some obvious deficiencies in the WoC army list. They aren't going to outshoot many opponents, and you're right the magic can be a bit underwhelming at times. No extremely amazing abilities/magic items to boost things up beyond the standard 8-10PD unless you want to spend 1000+pts on Sorcs. The Dragon won't make up for every shortcoming in a list, and it won't automatically make you competitive. It's a nice big juicy target for your opponent, and it puts a lot of pressure on that one model to perform.

Anyway the army comp system will vary from tournament to tournament. Some will be a rigid system with pre-determined formulae for computing your score. Some will be purely subjective, and your opponent will just give you a random score at the end of the game. You might lose a point here or there depending on who you play, but I think there's far scarier army builds than a Chaos list with a Dragon.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that don't take a Dragon if you don't want to. If you do you might see a bit of a performance boost against some armies, but the sheer cost will prevent you from taking much else in your army. It's a tossup really, a Tzeentch caster on Disc is half the cost and almost as good. Think of what the 350+ points from the Dragon could buy you... that's 6 marked Knights and plenty of points left over.

John Vaughan
02-03-2009, 03:16
Last person who said that Chaos has average magic ended up eating those words. :) No, a dragon is never overkill, only a bit frightening. As soon as a cannonball/boltthrower/lightning/whatever nails it, game over. What fills a 600pt gap as soon as its gone? Being a chaos player, I generally only take dragons as soon as I hit 3000pts. It makes it a bit more proportionate to the size of the army. Not to mention, good static combat res will tire out a dragon.

TroyJPerez
02-03-2009, 05:21
I actually don't take many knights cause they all die pretty fast to lore of metal or thunderbolts. Don't have a lot of variety in people who I play and everyone knows how to get past good armour saves. And well losing 40 points a model so fast just doesn't feel worth it. Thanks for the tips on the dragon though. I had similar thoughts. The Dragon seems like a huge investment and I doubt if I were to use it I would even gear up the chaos lord riding it. And I've seen how fast cannons and bolt throwers and take one down. And have lost too many battles even when hitting rank and file units on the side. Bad luck I guess but static combat resolution can be annoying.

sroblin
02-03-2009, 15:15
I don't understand why everyone is saying WoC magic is 'underwhelming'. The magic items and daemonic mutations for casters are among the best in any book, they can field wizards with +1 to cast, have 3 different lores which are all fairly useful; and the fact that Chaos magehammer armies are so common these days suggests to me that their magic isn't quite so bad after all. (I would say it is above average, though not at the top.) The most annoying downside I can think of is the must challenge rule.

I don't think taking the Dragon is a must have, nor do I think it is overpowered. The Chaos Dragon has received a lot less complaints than the DE or HE dragons. However, heaping that many points in one basket is IMO a bit dubious at 2000 pts, and some people don't think it's fun to play against. I certainly disagree that its required to be competitive; in my experience, being 'competitive' with chaos means loading up on Knights and Sorcerers. The Sorcerers provide the ranged punch and magic defense, the Knights demolish everything quickly.

Malice&Mizery
02-03-2009, 15:18
Friend of mine is talking me into taking a Chaos Dragon to a tournament saying I need it to compete. Now I know chaos has almost nothing for shooting, and only an average magic phase, but is making up for lack of mobility and shooting with a Dragon overkill? I am just looking for opinions and comment. Also does anyone know how much they mark you down for at tournaments comp score wise for bringing a dragon?

Pffft, take anything you want, it's your money :)

Don't listen to ANYONES crying of "cheese"

Bac5665
02-03-2009, 15:29
Dragons are, unfortunately, always cheese. I have never seen, or even heard of, a fun game (for both sides) involving a dragon.

The flying terror causer that takes powerful shooting to take down is just to powerful against some armies, and too weak against others. It's just about the worst part of Warhammer's rock-paper-scissors problem.

Havock
02-03-2009, 16:20
Dragons are, unfortunately, always cheese. I have never seen, or even heard of, a fun game (for both sides) involving a dragon.

The flying terror causer that takes powerful shooting to take down is just to powerful against some armies, and too weak against others. It's just about the worst part of Warhammer's rock-paper-scissors problem.

Make them a bit cheaper but give them only 15" flying movement; problem solved. Manticores/griffons etc. are faster, dragons are 'better'. Pick what you want.

Emeraldw
02-03-2009, 17:52
Dragons are, unfortunately, always cheese. I have never seen, or even heard of, a fun game (for both sides) involving a dragon.

The flying terror causer that takes powerful shooting to take down is just to powerful against some armies, and too weak against others. It's just about the worst part of Warhammer's rock-paper-scissors problem.

Well I've also found (depending on the dragon and riding hero, combined they can be over the top) that SCR can beat a dragon back, same for almost any large monster that tries to go at you from the front.

As to the dragon, well it's hard to say. In a tournament your out to win so maybe it isn't so bad. but in a friendly 2k game I would caution against it since it can be a little overwhelming for some armies that don't have D6 wound cannonballs or good BS with Bolt throwers.

Aranel
03-03-2009, 00:37
I would say in depends on the occasion. If your going to a competitive atmosphere you may well need the dragon to compete with other powerful lists. If your playing in a friendlier setting and just want to enjoy yourself, pick the army you feel comfortable with.

Kalec
03-03-2009, 01:15
If you are bringing WoC to a tournament where you wish to be competitive, you will need some way to deal with monsters or you will have trouble. The chaos dragon, with its two breath attacks, excels at thinning out hordes, which aren't a terribly big problem for you anyway with lawnmower knights and chariots. If you really feel that the dragon will help, then go for it (6 S6 attacks is never a bad idea), but I think you would do better grabbing an SC or sorcerer lord and more troops. Kholek has been great fun.

Lord Dan
03-03-2009, 02:01
Don't listen to ANYONES crying of "cheese"

Unless they're scoring your comp. In which case you slide them money.

The Farmer
03-03-2009, 06:43
Just remember Warriors of Chaos aren't gimmped on mobility, you have dogs, marauder horseman and Knights. On the subject of Dragons, most tournament lists will have ways of dealing with monsters anyway so no it wouldn't be cheesy.

Dead Man Walking
04-03-2009, 02:43
My x4 kroxigor eat chaos dragons for lunch. So no they are not cheesey.

Havock
04-03-2009, 15:18
My x4 kroxigor eat chaos dragons for lunch. So no they are not cheesey.

How do they do that if the dragon fights them on his terms. As in: in your flanks.

jax40kplyr1
05-03-2009, 15:24
If anyone wants to cry cheese, tell them to look at the HE dragon. Oh the rider is immune to flaming attacks so so is his mount. That usually negates almost all dwarf artillery (seems everyone takes flaming cannons or BT). Or the Zombie Dragon - best thing you can hit it on is a 4, in addition to benefitting every round from Infinite Hatred.
Folks just don't understand how dragons can be a glass hammer - when they work, they're great. If they wiff in combat or take a cannonball to the face, you've lost about half your army. WoC strength is in small units of heavy cavalry and infantry units, backed up by cheap maurader infantry and cavalry. Taking a dragon = less good expensive stuff for a lot cheaper and crappier units. Balances out.

kramplarv
05-03-2009, 16:00
Dragons are cool. That's the one and only reason you ever need to field one. :)