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The Clairvoyant
02-03-2009, 13:02
I've been thinking over the last couple of days about moving the magic phase back to where it used to be - after the combat phase.
I think it'll add a differnt element to the game. I'm an Undead player (both types) and i like the idea of doing my magic after the combat phase. For invocation, it would be used to replenish troops lost in the prior phase. For the vanhels, it would leave them out of the combat giving the opponent a chance to do something about it first before they get to make their attacks.
For my TK, doing a round of magical shooting after troops have fought, especially if it was a unit previously locked in combat that just crumbled/was wiped out, sounds appealing.

I don't know how such a change in the phase order would affect other armies, which is why i'm throwing it out here so you can tell me how it would affect you. Would it bring extra challenges? Would it make half of your spells pointless? Would it make other spells more powerful?

However, what i expect is "don't be stupid, it would make x really complicated". I'm not interested in such things. I'm interested in how it would affect your spell use and overall gameplay rather than semantics. So please, humour me and tell me how it would make things different for you.

NecronBob
02-03-2009, 15:42
A couple of the shadow spells would be much less useful. I generally use "Steed of Shadows" to move a mage out of CC before the fighting begins. I guess the spell would have other uses, but I use it more for that than anything.

"Unseen Lurker" likewise would work weird. If I used it to charge into CC would we fight there in the magic phase or in the next round? Would I count as charging?

Leogun_91
02-03-2009, 15:53
If the eight would be rewritten at the same time (which would be likely)there would just be a few issues(no real problem but some spells and items made less viable) that would have to be fixed when the armybooks came around. I donīt see the need of it but it is possible.

moose
02-03-2009, 16:02
If this were to happen, would you rewrite the Tomb Kings book for me? I don't think any non 'gunline' TK could work properly without being able to get magical charges off. Otherwise you'd have to wait until the next turn for combat, and meh, what'd be the point, just makes the TK army slower than it already is.

You could always playtest it with your friends for a laugh and tell us how it goes :).

Moose.

Condottiere
02-03-2009, 16:05
Movement spells and damage/softening up spells; psychological spells as well.

Keller
02-03-2009, 18:00
There are a lot of spells that affect combat that would be worthless. Metal, Light, Beasts, etc. would all have to be re-written, with these spells probably being taken out completely. As it is, such spells are very useful and add another dynamic to the magic phase.

If anything, I would suggest switching the magic and shooting phases. That way you can eliminate certain exploits, such as casting spells from next to cannons/throwers to get a range on your target. Though of course it would affect other spells (arrow attraction for HE, for example.)

crouchingotter
02-03-2009, 18:23
I've given this a bit of thought actually. I think the phases might suit a different order better. I came up with this idea based on what I think is more "realistic" in a game about fictional battles in a fictional land where big rats shoot guns....

1. Magic - Put the magic phase first. Set off spells that kill stuff, move stuff or assist in other phases later in the turn.
2. Shooting - Erm....shoot. Like in Braveheart/LotR/300. The shooting comes before the hitting and the charging etc...
3. Move - So you've focused all your long range stuff on your targets.... now surge towards them! Now charge into combat. Or...move into a better shooting position :D
4. Fight - With your foe suitably burned by magic missiles and impaled by a hail of arrows....now comes the time to hit him in the face. Stab him. Poke him in the eye. Whatever it takes.

Think about those scenes in 300, Lord of the Rings, Braveheart or any other film where a group of folks with swords, shields and bows all line up infront of each other.

It all kicks off when someone launches the first arrow into their enemy. Given that we've got Magic in our game, it makes sense to use that at the start of the turn because it generally is used to help out in some way.

Anyway....let me know what you think :D

Urgat
02-03-2009, 18:24
That way you can eliminate certain exploits, such as casting spells from next to cannons/throwers to get a range on your target.

mmh, instead, you'd use your throwers to see if your casters are in range. Not a big deal, really.

The Clairvoyant
02-03-2009, 18:29
I've given this a bit of thought actually. I think the phases might suit a different order better. I came up with this idea based on what I think is more "realistic" in a game about fictional battles in a fictional land where big rats shoot guns....

1. Magic - Put the magic phase first. Set off spells that kill stuff, move stuff or assist in other phases later in the turn.
2. Shooting - Erm....shoot. Like in Braveheart/LotR/300. The shooting comes before the hitting and the charging etc...
3. Move - So you've focused all your long range stuff on your targets.... now surge towards them! Now charge into combat. Or...move into a better shooting position :D
4. Fight - With your foe suitably burned by magic missiles and impaled by a hail of arrows....now comes the time to hit him in the face. Stab him. Poke him in the eye. Whatever it takes.

Think about those scenes in 300, Lord of the Rings, Braveheart or any other film where a group of folks with swords, shields and bows all line up infront of each other.

It all kicks off when someone launches the first arrow into their enemy. Given that we've got Magic in our game, it makes sense to use that at the start of the turn because it generally is used to help out in some way.

Anyway....let me know what you think :D

i *really* like that!

Switching phases around would certainly change a lot of dynamics. Would certainly stop stupid people like me moving a unit and then realising i'd just blocked my LOS :D

Chicago Slim
02-03-2009, 18:35
1. Magic
2. Shooting
3. Move
4. Fight


Well, it reverses the current "can we shoot, or did we move in a way that prohibits shooting?" question (can we move / march / charge, or did we already shoot?") which would be different, but probably not any greater burden than it already is; 40K seems to do fine with "We can't assualt because we fired rapid-fire weapons..."

Frenzied troops with missile weapons would be in a weird situation, but that's a pretty uncommon combination, and could presumably be patched on a case-by-case basis (or just given the extra advantage of shooting and still charging).


But, yeah, I kind of like the fact that the turn pretty much starts (with a few exceptions) with committing yourself to your charges. Yes, it means you can't soften up a target that you're also charging this turn, but that fits fine by me: don't want to hit your charging troops as they move in!

sroblin
02-03-2009, 18:49
It would weaken magic in general. Any buff spells or enhancements would end up being cast just before the enemy turn and before you could some use out of them, allowing the enemy to react to them accordingly. And not being able to make immediate use out off buff spells and even attack spells when you're trying to make your pieces work for the turn would make make them less useful. Some remains in play spells might end up being dispelled before any benefit of their cating could be realized.

For instance, 'Curse of Arrow Attraction' would be useless; you wouldn't be able to even benefit from the spell until after the enemy has moved the target unit. Transmute to lead in the lore of gold would become less worthwhile, because your normally cast on a unit you're going to fight or shoot at that round. Ranged attacks would be the least hampered by this, and so what magic I did use would primarily be attack magic..

Crouching otters suggestion I think would be more workable.

Gazak Blacktoof
02-03-2009, 19:07
You need a damn good reason to overturn the sequence in warhammer as any transition period is going to be ugly. Frankly I don't see any other method as being better, simply different and there are plenty of other ways to get a drastically different game that are nowhere near as traumatic to the whole system.

O&G'sRule
02-03-2009, 19:53
My magic phases are often last anyway as I am so used to them being there I forget to do them before shooting, its just not natural to me. Your opponent has to be a real "ahem ......pain" to not allow you the phase because you went out of sequence.

Condottiere
02-03-2009, 19:57
Combine the shooting and magic phase?