PDA

View Full Version : A good KP Idea



slingersam
03-03-2009, 05:57
I had posted this in another thread but want to know if its a good idea?

HQ = 5 Kill Points
Troops = 1 Kill Point
Elites = 3 Kill Points
Fast Attack = 2 Kill Points
Heavy = 4 Kill Points

Rules
-Anything summoned or not included in the army list will not give up a kill point
-When you create an army list that is where you will derive your kill points
-If the entry has a special rule allowing it to be considered a different type of entry you will use the correct KP it specifies (warboss -Nob elites = troops)
-IG platoons = 1KP per unit, so no saying 1 platoon = 1 KP, 1 platoon = 6 KP

Example
HQ - Warboss - equipment - 5KP
- SAG Meq - equipment - 5kp
Elites - Komandos - 3KP
- Burna Boyz - 3kp
Troops - Biker Nobz - 2KP
- Ork Deff Dread - 4KP
- Ork Boyz - 1KP
- Ork Boyz - 1KP
- Ork Boyz - 1KP
Fast - Koptas - 2KP
Heavy - Killa Kans - 4KP
- Killa Kans - 4KP
- Killa Kans - 4KP
Total KP - 39KP

oviously this isn't a very good list it is just an example.

I remeber I was playing a 1500 point game and I wiped him out and he tells me afterward I had only managed 1.5 KP except he had like 4 - 5 units, he then tells me that IG has this special rule that would effect the KP for each of his units, so thats when we changed the KP system saying each individual unit in a platoon = 1 KP.

ehlijen
03-03-2009, 06:18
So one officer and his 4 buddies are 5 KP if they happen to be hq but 1 kp if they happen to be troops or 3 if HS?

One wound techmarines are 3 KP all by themselves? Who'd take them now?

And why is FA less valuable than HS? Used right they can be just as destructive and dangerous. Also, that'd mean that vanguard are less valuable than sternguard?

If you're trying to weight units on their value for KP, you'll need to do it unit by unit (for every codex). Just going by FO slot is going to throw in odd things with most armies.

slingersam
03-03-2009, 06:39
I dont know the rules to the IG Gaurd, they alone are a weird
codex, and I have not faced the new marines yet but I can see
what your saying about each codex

Flypaper
03-03-2009, 06:52
Your system doesn't really help with KPs existing problems, and makes some of them worse.

Let's look at the current problematic units:

+ Small 'garnish' units with very few wounds, such as Techmarines/priests: These are usually Elite or HQ choices, so your system makes them even less playable. Things get much worse when we factor in similar units that also happen to be 3-for-1-slot such as Zooanthropes or Death Cult Assassins.

+ IG platoon problems: reduced very slightly. The worth of each Troop unit is reduced as a percentage of all total KP, but that total is still higher than average.

+ Tau Devilfish drones: unchanged.

+ Biovores: Are we counting the spores they fire as being Heavy Support? It'd be interesting to do the math as to how many KP they could generate in a single game - I suspect it'd be more than some other entire armies!

ehlijen
03-03-2009, 08:39
Argh. Tau vehicle drones are not a problematic unit!

They are the only Tau vehicle defensive weapon and are annoying to boot objective contesters. Also, they are free with every DF (compare their cost and the SMS cost to the hammerhead entry). Also, they can't be killed if you don't detach them and protect your fish.

For all that, yielding a KP is not a high price to pay.

DaR
03-03-2009, 09:13
Without sugar coating this sounds to me to be an absolutely horrible idea that massively favors a select few armies and specific builds while horribly penalizing a number of others in any kill point scenario.

Ehlijen gets part of it right. The other part is that many armies simpy do not value specific slots the same. Guard do not usually have strong contention for Elite slots, while they generally have very heavy contention for Heavy Support and sometimes Fast Attack slots. Most Eldar players could care less about Fast Attack and take only a few troop choices, because all their effectiveness is in their Elites and HQ slots, with HS being mostly for anti-tank work. Marines can practically forgo anything except troops and still field a mostly viable army. A Tau army with nothing but troops is going to be slaughtered by the first army they come up against that has mastered the simple art of getting in an armored transport.

For instance, this idea makes Necron, Eldar and Tau almost completely unplayable in any sort of competitive scenario. None of those armies can take significant anti-vehicle fire power in any troop slots, and mostly not in fast attack. Which means that they rely on their Heavy Support (and/or Elite slots) to be able to deal with things that many armies can take in troop slots. It also does a pretty awful number on IG, who also tend to rely heavily on FA and HS slots and have platoons to boot.

Overall this means that in order to be effective in the other 2/3rds of the scenarios, certain armies will need to be at a disadvantage ranging from 1.5:1 upto 2 or 3:1, in terms of KP available. Why do my Eldar need to wipe out an entire Marine army while preserving more than half their own, while my marine army can die except for a single man, so long as they get 1/3rd of a static gunline IG army? Is there some inherent fairness here I'm not seeing?



Off the top of my head, among the armies I actually play or play against often enough to have an immediate opinion:

Marines: Thrive. Combat Squads and flexible weapon choices make them king of this format. They can get away with taking a ton of 10 man scout and tactical squad, a single HQ, and then picking and choosing Elite and HS slots to maximum advantage. Like taking Terminator squads in order to get Land Raiders as "free", since they're part of the elite slot. You could easily build a competitive 1500 point list with 12 or fewer KP, using these rules. I can make a list I wouldn't mind taking to a tourney for about 15 KP at 1500, and only about 20 KP at 1850. My current list, however, is looking at 28KP at 1850. I could, merely by choosing a few different transport options, and playing a little magic shell shuffle first turn to get the right things in the right transports, drop it 20.

Chaos Marines: Fine. A little worse off than regular marines, as they tend to be more likely to fill their HQ choices with Lash princes and HS choices with Obliterators, Defilers, or Vindicators. Tend to be proportionally lighter on FA and Elite choices than most Space Marine lists though. You're probably looking at 20-25 KP for an 1850 tourney list.

Orks: Mixed, tending toward fine. 180 boyz for 6 KP total? Sure, why not. You only need 1 HQ in a Green Tide type list. FA slots at 2 KP are also some of the best bang for the buck in terms of Ork support anyhow (Stormboyz, even in 5e, are very very good, and Deffkoptas are not bad either). You can field a viable (though not great) 1850 Green Tide tourney army for as little as 15 KP. The currently popular Nob Biker list, even accounting for 3 KP per mob as they were originally elites, is only around 20KP at 1850, assuming you're taking some Trukk units to fill out objective capturing. OTOH, as you pointed out yourself, a Dread/Kan Bash list is now completely unplayable competitively, as 39 KP at 1500 is way too much. My wagon/dread list would run 25 KP at 1500 and almost 35 at 1850.

Eldar: Totally unplayable. Very heavy reliance on HQ slots for whole army support (Farseers and/or Avatar), no assault capable units outside of Elite slots (possibly barring Shining Spears with an HQ Autarch), no anti tank and only moderate anti-horde in troop slots. Very heavy reliance on either HQ slots (warlocks on bikes) or HS slots for anti tank (possible exception of equally spendy elite slot Fire Dragons). My standard 1850 tourney list is a whopping 35 KP for 39 models. A 1500 reserve rush list is about 32 KP. I could make my tourney list vastly less fun to play (and play against) and get it down to around 20 KP, but I'd get hammered for theme and sportsmanship and be taking a big risk in any capture and control type games with more than 2 objectives.

Tau - Almost totally unplayable. Since you get no special weapons at all in your basic troop squads, almost every Tau army fills all 3 heavy support slots and usually 2 or 3 Elite slots, just to get enough anti-tank capability to survive against a mechanized list like Eldar, Marines of either variety or Guard. Not as much HQ or FA reliance as other lists, but pathfinders are semi-common My personal suit heavy list is 35 KP at 1850. My friend's more "balanced" list is still around 28 KP at 1850.

Chaos Daemons - Mixed bag, tending towards bad. Daemons tend take 2 HQ all the time, and given they've got no reliable anti-tank outside of HQ and HS slots, those two most expensive slots tend to fill up fast. My 1500 list I played at the last tourney I was in would rack up only 19 KP, but my planned 1850 list is 35 KP.

Tyrannid - Mostly good, except Nidzilla. A stealer rush list could be as few as 11 KP for 85 fleet, rending, 3 attack models at 1850. A nidzilla list, OTOH, is 32 KP just for your 'fexes, tyrants, and 2 base troop units.

Witchhunters - Great. Mechanized units of sisters troops work wonders. You need 2 HQ and some elites just for the faith points, but you can easily skimp on HS with all the melta and flamers available elsewhere, such as troop transports and as troop squad upgrades. 20-25 KP for a very very competitive list.

IG - Awful. Making it per platoon hurts a lot. A classic stand and shoot gunline army could end up being 30+ KP for mostly basic guardsmen with immobile heavy weapons. If the platoon == KP rule applies to HQ, things get insane. A single HQ platoon could theoretically cost 30KP by itself, given it can have 5 squads attached to it. Likewise a single heavy weapons platoon is 16 KP, compared to 8 KP for an equivilent point cost worth of Leman Russ tanks. It is easily possible to get over 80 KP at 1850 with nothing but basic guardsmen with a lot of autocannons and lascannons. Is that army really so scary it has to work 4 times as hard not giving up KP as a 20 KP marine list?

I don't some of the other armies memorized well enough to construct best case/worst case armies in my head. Dark Eldar could probably do well with Warrior/Raider spam lists, but the current tourney preference of Wych cult armies would drive KP through the roof, as they're Elites moved to Troops by an HQ choice, so you're dealing with 3KP per troop choice. Necrons can field low KP lists with lots of warriors and a single Lord with maybe 1 monolith backing it up, but that's boring as heck. Balanced Necron lists with lots of destroyers, heavy destroyers, 2 lords for some flexibility and immortals are going to quickly climb into the 30 KP range for 1850. Most of the Marine variants are golden, except Space Wolves who have to have 15 KP in HQ just to play an 1850 game. And that's before you actually put any troops or support in the list.


Basically, while I see what you're trying to do here, fixing Kill Points for tourneys is not so easy as weighting which slot things came from. The only real solution would be to assign them codex entry by codex entry for every single codex. Barring that, the current setup is the only thing that makes any sort of sense, especially if GW would issue a couple of FAQs to clear up the stupidity issues for things like spore mines, gun drones, chaos spawn, and couple of other points that were not necessarily envisioning 5e's KP rules when the codexes they're in were written.

-DaR

Znail
03-03-2009, 09:19
I am not a fan of KP's but this idea and similar I have seen only makes it worse.

shabbadoo
03-03-2009, 10:37
The rulebook does say you can use VPs instead of KPs as usual. If people can count up an army list, they ought to be able to count up VPs too. :eyebrows:

Problem solved.:p

Bunnahabhain
03-03-2009, 11:55
This is a really silly suggestion, just like every other one I've seen that tries to weight KPs by FOC slots. As different armies use their FOC in different ways, it's doomed to fail.

Objectives are good, Victory points are not bad.

Kill points with survivor points are better than just kill points, as at least all armies are now balanced. It does have it's own problems, but they're far smaller those of pure kill points...

Is the OPs suggestion a good idea?
Yes, if you play an army like Orks or marines that can consist almost entirely of very good troops choices.
NO! for every other army style.

IronNerd
03-03-2009, 14:23
Chaos would equal win under these proposed rules. Our troops are ace, and I would be fine with one HQ and six troops in a game up to 2kish points.