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Marked_by_chaos
03-03-2009, 10:56
Seeing the lord of the rings go supersize the thought struck me ... where will gw go in the near future with there core systems?

The financials show that number of unit sales are decreasing (bear in mind that they are simply selling at higher costs to mask this) as they have been ever since pre-LOTR bubble (for all systems other than LOTR).

They were in fact selling more product before LOTR for a higher profit partly because they had less overheads as they weren't tied in to the questionable high rent flagship stores (which also hold less stock).

The answer has seemingly been to accelerate development of plastic models and to change the emphasis of the existing game systems to focus on larger battles requiring either more expensive or simply more models (ok this hasn't happened yet but it soon will).

What I find interesting is that pre-LOTR bubble they had a proliferation of smaller scale and skirmish games which had lower start up costs. YET they still managed a bigger profits (not even accounting for inflation!). They seem to have spent far more to make less money!

Anyway on the the real point I was going to make, does the change in emphasis with the appocalypse style games suggest that GW are devoid of direction for their flagship game systems. As they make all the models plastic (with higher initial sprue design costs) there is surely a limit to the number of times they can rehash the tactical marine sprue (replace with other units as appropriate) or re-peddle the marine codex for the 2nd or 3rd time in five years (I forget) before people lose interest.

The empire army for example will soon be all plastic. How much will it change from then on. Same for space marine etc. Are they just going to have to gradually retire the existing sytems and pursuade gamers to start up new ones or at least spice it up a bit with other side angles or games.

The great unspoken advantage of the old GW (with proliferation of games that are now specialist but once core or near core games) was that you would quickly suffer from a crack like addiction forcing you to buy from one system and then before you had even painted the models being drawn to another and buying models for that (repeated ad nauseum). I for one used to spend far more when they had more games in sotck in stores as I would flit from one to the other.

The other problem I see with the bigger scale they are targeting is the sustainability. Aside from my personal view that it seems a bit disjointed and more toylike (even than the average toy soldier;)) They take up more space, have large start up costs and how often are you really likely to play these games. Sooner or later they will fall badly by the wayside (or GW will have to open warehouse sized stores to accomodate:rolleyes:)

blongbling
03-03-2009, 11:14
I had started to reply to this but there are so many inaccuracies in what you have said that it would take forever

Gazak Blacktoof
03-03-2009, 11:22
Plastic sets will be replaced with newer plastic kits and the cycle wll continue.

Tonberry
03-03-2009, 12:20
Anyone else see a return of the good old skirmish game sets but incorporated into the bigger games? Especially with the rumours of the 40k - Spacehulk thing floating around.

Templar Ben
03-03-2009, 13:17
Perhaps we can merge this one with the one I started.

zedeyejoe
03-03-2009, 13:20
Space Hulk. Small is beautiful.

BaloOrk
03-03-2009, 13:21
I wish GW could re-release the skirmish game sets.
Its cheaper and easier painting/modelling wise to get in to, hooking up them lil`uns.
If it wasnt for Necromunda, i would`nt be here.
Re-releasing EPIC as counter measures against Flames of war? :p:rolleyes::cool::D

Yes i know they are available from Specialist games, but thats just.... meh
And not many fellas below 18 year age, is allowed to buy stuff online from other countrys, if you know what i mean :angel:

BrianC
03-03-2009, 16:56
I'll say skirmish as well, although it doesn't sell many models it could sell scenery if executed correctly.

I'd also like to see Mighty Empires expanded to all the other systems, I know its been rumoured for 40k for a while but thats a long way from actually having it on the shelves to buy. Again if its done right it can increase sales beyond the Mighty Empires box if it forces people outside of their comfort zones with army composition.

Marked_by_chaos
03-03-2009, 18:22
I had started to reply to this but there are so many inaccuracies in what you have said that it would take forever

How so. I don't mean that in a condescending way but if you work out turnover and then factor in price rises and inflation over the years GW sales are at best static and at worst falling in volume terms - they just rise prices to hide this every so often - not least as we are all "price insensitive"). Don't forget prices have near doubled over the last decade (more for certain products) but the turnover has certainly not (not that that is an exact way to analyse anything).

Killgore
03-03-2009, 19:31
I expect alot more Expansions, its all good for us fans with new toys to tinker with

if GW can think of a better extension strategy for their exsisting ranges id love to hear it

lanrak
03-03-2009, 20:21
Hi all.
Kilgore I belive this is the OPs point , just increasing the size of the core games minature requirment , is not sustainable .

However the multiple games with smaller model count is , as you can keep adding more games.

But GW PLC is no longer a games company , just a minatures manufacurer and retailer.

When GW produced and supported a wide range of games , gamers used to buy multiple small colections of minatures for multiple games.
Also the low start up cost in TIME and money makes these games easier to get up and running, and so appeal to a wider audience.

TTFN
Lanrak.

Templar Ben
03-03-2009, 20:39
I think the best way would be creating new armies that require you to convert the existing lines. For instance, create rules available in WD for say Exodite Eldar. Then they have a guide on how to build them using the Lizardmen, Wood Elves, and Eldar sets. They have a new army that after getting feedback they can release in WD with a "Chapter Approved" stamp. Then you have an army that requires no tooling for GW and increases sales. If you really want to, you can put the necessary sprues in a new box but there will be some expense there with the box design and the new SKU.

Marked_by_chaos
03-03-2009, 20:44
That was my point about the scale and the number of games.

I am not sure whether the expansions can be sustained either. What more can they do:

Trench warfare - maybe gaming board tiles and bunker terrain tied in with a guard release

Spaceship warfare

campaign book

mission book (if not combined with above)

i am struggling to see many others. As you become more removed from 40k there will probably be decreasing uptake anyway - see lustria book for wfb as case in point. The more extravagant the less covered in store and therefore teh less the sustainable appeal to the gw core market young teenagers and their long-suffering middle class parents.

As a side point the games are also reaching a point where it is idfficult to se how the background can be progressed without altering the entire feel of the setting.

Marked_by_chaos
03-03-2009, 20:47
I think the best way would be creating new armies that require you to convert the existing lines. For instance, create rules available in WD for say Exodite Eldar. Then they have a guide on how to build them using the Lizardmen, Wood Elves, and Eldar sets. They have a new army that after getting feedback they can release in WD with a "Chapter Approved" stamp. Then you have an army that requires no tooling for GW and increases sales. If you really want to, you can put the necessary sprues in a new box but there will be some expense there with the box design and the new SKU.

I don't neccessarily disagree with you but they have already sort of done this and shelved such armies - see Kroot, LOTD, 13th company etc. Thay consciously axed the proliferation of forces for a return to the central feel of each army and there is so much flexibility imagination is the only limit anyway

Killgore
03-03-2009, 21:24
That was my point about the scale and the number of games.

I am not sure whether the expansions can be sustained either. What more can they do:

Trench warfare - maybe gaming board tiles and bunker terrain tied in with a guard release

Spaceship warfare

campaign book

mission book (if not combined with above)

i am struggling to see many others.


Warhammer 30K

thats a huge can of worms waiting to be opened, add in a plastic Heresy era armour kit and GW can keep 40k players spoon fed 30k expansion sets for years to come

IJW
03-03-2009, 23:42
I had started to reply to this but there are so many inaccuracies in what you have said that it would take forever

How so.

Without going into every point or into huge detail...


The answer has seemingly been to accelerate development of plastic models and to change the emphasis of the existing game systems to focus on larger battles requiring either more expensive or simply more models (ok this hasn't happened yet but it soon will).
Orks (and soon IG) have seen an increase in model numbers, but that's about it. Outside of War of the Ring and the purely optional Apocalypse, there has been no increase in overall game sizes recently, and nothing to infer that this will be coming. Stop crying wolf.


Anyway on the the real point I was going to make, does the change in emphasis with the appocalypse style games suggest that GW are devoid of direction for their flagship game systems.
Again, outside of War of the Ring, I simply don't see such a huge change in emphasis. Things are a bit skewed at the moment due to the superheavy kits for 40k coming out at the same time as WotR, but your basic 40k game is still a standard 1500 point game. WFB, meanwhile had a few pages in White Dwarf for big battles and that was it.

The other rumoured things coming up for 40k are missions and Planetstrike, both of which I believe are geared more towards regular size games than Apoc. Not to forget the increasing rumours of a Space Hulk re-release.

Yes, there have been some increases, but I think you are over-stating them.


As they make all the models plastic (with higher initial sprue design costs) there is surely a limit to the number of times they can rehash the tactical marine sprue (replace with other units as appropriate)
There was never a limit to the number of times metal Marines could be re-released with relatively minor changes, why would this change for plastic?


or re-peddle the marine codex for the 2nd or 3rd time in five years (I forget) before people lose interest.
Looks like you did forget.
3rd ed. Marine codex - 1998
4th ed. Marine codex - 2004
5th ed. Marine codex - late 2008

Starting from 3rd ed, that's two updates in a decade.


The empire army for example will soon be all plastic. How much will it change from then on. Same for space marine etc. Are they just going to have to gradually retire the existing sytems and pursuade gamers to start up new ones or at least spice it up a bit with other side angles or games.
Gamers that have been around long enough to notice that aren't GW's core market, and haven't been for roughly fifteen years. :(
Anyway, I refer you back to how are plastics different from metal?


The other problem I see with the bigger scale they are targeting is the sustainability. Aside from my personal view that it seems a bit disjointed and more toylike (even than the average toy soldier;)) They take up more space, have large start up costs and how often are you really likely to play these games. Sooner or later they will fall badly by the wayside (or GW will have to open warehouse sized stores to accomodate:rolleyes:)
That's almost pure hyperbole and you know it. Again, Apocalypse is optional, and in any case works well by having a few people with regular size armies join forces (this is even recommended in the book somewhere), and WotR as far as I can see still involves fewer models than a big Warhammer game.

synapse
04-03-2009, 06:27
plastic kits will probably be replaced in 15 year-ish windows.

like the old rtb rhino and land raiders were redone, i think all existing plastic ,kitrs will be replaced. some of the newer multi-part kits already have (chaos warriors, empire, goblins, dark eldar might be pretty soon also). other than that i dont see GW licencing any other new games, though ive often wondered if they might try and make a new core game, perhapos nothing to do with their current IP. i doubt it, but you never know

Demonborger
10-03-2009, 14:27
I'd like to see GW release Warhammer 30,000: The Horus Heresy, something like epic, perhaps a little bigger scalewise ala Flames of War.

daemonkin
10-03-2009, 16:11
I'd like to see GW release Warhammer 30,000: The Horus Heresy, something like epic, perhaps a little bigger scalewise ala Flames of War.

Why do that when you can do THIS (http://www.thousand-sons.co.uk/campaign) - Just take the Bell of Lost Souls document and apply to Epic:Armageddon.

Simples.

D.

Hlokk
10-03-2009, 16:28
I see the systems going in 3 ways:

1: Look at what happened with marines, and all the new stuff apparently in the new guard codex. Expand existing armies by giving them all something new and useful gives GW a way to trot out more stuff for existing armies, keeping sales up and preventing people getting pissed off with their constant re-release model of sales (which, like it or not, isnt going away)

2: Skirmish: Re-releasing space hulk might just be the beginning (Im praying for warhammer quest to come back). What GW need to do are a set of rules for each system, along the lines of necromunda/40 patrol which are very detailed and have stuff like throwing grenades, different movement rates and all such, and can be tied into normal 40k campaigns.

3: Expand into new territories. GW are great at saying "we'll do hrud/chaos dwarfs/new squats/Crab people when we get time" Eventually GW are going to have to realise that, in order to keep their lines fresh, they need to take time to actually do these things and do them properly (like they did with the tau and necrons, not like the dark eldar). They dont need to make an assload of new races and species, but a bit of new stuff (like arabay, demiurg) couldn't hurt

As far as Lord of the Rings, I struggle to see where else GW can go with it. The obvious solution would be further lisence aquisition from Tolkien estates, which I assume would allow more stuff to be released in that universe. Alternatively, GW could (and should) persue another film lisence or TV series lisence and develop its core game range beyond 2 great systems and a tired movie franchise.

Dwarf Supreme
10-03-2009, 17:03
I'd like to see GW release Warhammer 30,000: The Horus Heresy, something like epic, perhaps a little bigger scalewise ala Flames of War.

They already did. It's called Adeptus Titanicus. :p

borithan
10-03-2009, 18:04
1: Look at what happened with marines, and all the new stuff apparently in the new guard codex. Expand existing armies by giving them all something new and useful gives GW a way to trot out more stuff for existing armies, keeping sales up and preventing people getting pissed off with their constant re-release model of sales (which, like it or not, isnt going away)Certainly going to be doing that... its what they have always been doing isn't it?



2: Skirmish: Re-releasing space hulk might just be the beginning (Im praying for warhammer quest to come back). What GW need to do are a set of rules for each system, along the lines of necromunda/40 patrol which are very detailed and have stuff like throwing grenades, different movement rates and all such, and can be tied into normal 40k campaigns.Would really like them to do this. I have always wanted to play a Necromunda style game with the main 40k races, with the experience system, acquiring weapons etc all worked out for the main races (as the current ones are designed for gang fighting, rather than skirmishes between proper soldiers).



Alternatively, GW could (and should) persue another film lisence or TV series lisence and develop its core game range beyond 2 great systems and a tired movie franchise.I am fairly sure they have now decided against getting any more licensed products, due to a bad experience with LotR. Though, yes, they could do with expanding their core games.

Temprus
10-03-2009, 19:39
I am fairly sure they have now decided against getting any more licensed products, due to a bad experience with LotR.
What bad experience? GW has sold a lot of LotR since 2001 and as of mid last year, it was still outselling WFB (I have not seen stats since then to see if it is still outselling WFB). The LotR cow cash allowed them to re-do their plastic mold systems among other positive changes. Most of GW financial troubles stem from bad business/company level decisions (and a turned world economy), not "poor" product sales.

I suspect they will stay away from other licenses because GW has issues with IP in general. Besides, there are very few properties they could make money off of like LotR, most such properties already have too many ties to other toy/game manufacturers (which LotR did not until the movies came along).

Verm1s
10-03-2009, 20:47
I have to second Daemonkin and Dwarf Supreme. I'm a bit confused and exasperated whenever people wonder 'wouldn't it be nice...?', about GW investing in something new or reinventing the wheel when they already offer it or something similar, that can be manipulated with a little imagination (or asking and searching to find how others manipulate it).

You don't need GW to hold your hand for large-scale Heresy-era battles. :)

King Vyper
11-03-2009, 12:27
I think it would be nice if GW would just support the games that they sell.

The Specialist Games Line and Warhammer Historical are two examples.

Hlokk
11-03-2009, 12:41
Certainly going to be doing that... its what they have always been doing isn't it?
Not necessarily. in some instances, all they seem to have done is released a new codex and restricted what could be taken. Case in point: 3rd edition guard codex brought us the vanquisher and the exterminator. 4th edition guard codex got rid of the exterminator, vanquisher and the griffon for some strange reason, so a lot of guard players (myself included) had tanks which were redundant and had to pay 45 for a forgeworld book of optional rules.

What workshop really need to do, and this was touched on in the last standard bearer, is really focus on what alternatives they can wangle out with the new kits coming out and what new stuff they can put in a codex people will want to buy. By focusing on multi option plastic kits which make a number of variants, they save money on new moulds and also shelf space (which seems to be at a premium, even though my new local GW stands almost half empty).


I am fairly sure they have now decided against getting any more licensed products, due to a bad experience with LotR. Though, yes, they could do with expanding their core games.

Your absolutly right of course, but I think in part, the bad experience they had with LotR came down to bad management and mis reading the market, rather than the LotR brand being crap itself. GW do need to expand their core line, and I think, if they actually paid attention to the market they could make a sucess of it. Obvious choices over the past few years have been things like a Matrix style RPG, a band of brothers skirmish game, a marvel skirmish game with stuff like spiderman and the xmen (I know theres a heroclix version, but its crap and GW could do a brilliant job with it). None of this would necessarily detract from the importance of 40k and WHFB, but it provides 2 important things:

1: Pocket money keeps coming in from kids who've seen an awesome film and want the models/games/books to go with it
2: Money is there to keep GW going. When the film's popularity runs out after a couple of years, dump it into specialist games and look at the next one.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 12:45
Personally, I'm glad they don't give Specialist Games any more support than they do. The core games have gone massively downhill with the last few releases. All the rules for SG are available for free, they're all solid and balanced games, and the miniatures are available (with the arguable exception of Epic).

Most of Fanatic's additions were crap. I don't miss them screwing around with systems that work just fine.

x-esiv-4c
11-03-2009, 13:05
Are you saying that because of specialist games, 40k and WHFB have turned to crap?

bert n ernie
11-03-2009, 13:39
Without going into every point or into huge detail...
Orks (and soon IG) have seen an increase in model numbers, but that's about it. Outside of War of the Ring and the purely optional Apocalypse, there has been no increase in overall game sizes recently, and nothing to infer that this will be coming. Stop crying wolf.


Anyway, I refer you back to how are plastics different from metal?


That's almost pure hyperbole and you know it. Again, Apocalypse is optional, and in any case works well by having a few people with regular size armies join forces (this is even recommended in the book somewhere), and WotR as far as I can see still involves fewer models than a big Warhammer game.

I've got to disagree with these points you made.
I don't know about you, but it seems in most tournaments that have been occuring in the recent past the points count has increased. I'm now expected to have 2250 point armies for warhammer instead of 2000 and I need 1750 point armies for 40k instead of 1500.
This is a definite increase across both ranges.

Plastic is different from metal in one area for many gamers. It is not about the cheapness of the plastic, it is about the convertability.
With plastic sets you have minis that have multiple poses with numerous accessories and plenty of scope for easier conversions. When you have one or two sets for a particular model available you really do not need any more unless there is a drastic change at the basic make up of the kit.
Due to this multiple plastic kits become increasingly unnecessary at time goes by.

Apocolapyse may be optional, but I remember a time when the most popular games club activities on a weekend were small doubles tourneys, themed games and so on.
These days I am seeing an increasing number of very large games.
I have no problem with this personally, but you can't deny that there is a definite push towards getting gamers to join in in larger games within stores.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 20:10
Are you saying that because of specialist games, 40k and WHFB have turned to crap?

No, I'm saying I wouldn't trust what passes for games development these days anywhere near a bunch of systems that are already good and complete. Their "support" does more harm than good.

Lord of Worms
11-03-2009, 22:35
[QUOTE=bert n ernie;3365349]I've got to disagree with these points you made.
I don't know about you, but it seems in most tournaments that have been occuring in the recent past the points count has increased. I'm now expected to have 2250 point armies for warhammer instead of 2000 and I need 1750 point armies for 40k instead of 1500.
This is a definite increase across both ranges.
QUOTE]

The actual size of each army (in terms of no. of models) from 4th Ed. to 5th ed. hasn't changed much at all.

Consider these examples:

Chapter Master (old)
Equipment: Power Sword
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo
Frag and Krak
Total Cost:119 points

Chapter Master (new)
Equipment: Power Sword
Bolt Pistol
Iron Halo
Frag and Krak
Total Cost:140 points

Add in Digi-Lasers and fancy bullets and Chapter Master Lloyd Farnsworth approaches 200 points.

Further Examples
Shrike (old) : 175 points
Shrike (new): 195 points

Calgar (old):195 points
Calgar (new):250 points

Tactical Marine Greg (old):15 points
Tactical Marine Greg (new):16 points

I could go through other codexes to prove this point further, but I think I made my point.

bert n ernie
12-03-2009, 10:46
I could go through other codexes to prove this point further, but I think I made my point.

No offence, but I don't think you have.
Marines costing one point more per model is, firstly, a selected part of the codex. What about Rhinos? In the past a rhino was 50pts, now it's about 35. Drop pods are very cheap, yet before we didn't use to have drop pods, we either had deep strike or not. People are buying a very cheap points wise model for 18. I would think that there is some balance between your point and mine which means that, depending on choices of individual players, the army size/cost to buy could remain the same(unless, IMO, if you are buying drop pods).
If you go on to talk about other codeci like Orks you will find some basic troops are even cheaper than before.
Secondly my point was not about the point for point cost difference between 3rd ed and 4th. I was talking more specifically about the change in the number of points used in most tournaments(in the UK anyway). This change means that many gamers are very likely to need to increase their army size to be able to play tournament size games.
Ergo, I believe, playing in tournaments(and in the meta game for many people) has become more expensive.

IJW
12-03-2009, 11:44
I don't know about you, but it seems in most tournaments that have been occuring in the recent past the points count has increased. I'm now expected to have 2250 point armies for warhammer instead of 2000 and I need 1750 point armies for 40k instead of 1500.
This is a definite increase across both ranges.
I'd been about to ask you what country you were in because I'd not seen this in the UK, but apparently you're in the UK as well.

The only UK tournament I know of with increased points is Carnage.

The GW GT is still 1,500 for 40k and 2,000 for WFB, the GW doubles is still 500 each for 40k and 750 each for WFB.

Tournaments in the South West:
Legionary (http://legionary-exeter.com/catalog/), 1k for 40k, 1,500 for Warhammer.
PAW (http://www.plymouthwargamers.co.uk/PAWShow/PAW2009Comps.htm) was 1,500 for 40k, Warhammer was some kind of warbands fast play tournament.
Bristol Conflict (2008, doesn't seem to be one this year) was 1k for 40k, 1,500 for WFB.


Apocolapyse may be optional, but I remember a time when the most popular games club activities on a weekend were small doubles tourneys, themed games and so on.
These days I am seeing an increasing number of very large games.
While our club has 1,000 point tournaments for both 40k and Warhammer, and in a couple of weeks time we're having a Combat Patrol tournament. Purely anecdotal evidence, but then so is yours.

For what it's worth, outside of Apocalypse I've only ever played one 4th/5th ed. 40k game that was larger than 1,500 points.
Go back to RT and it's another matter - one of the best games we ever played was 5,000 points of Grey Knight Terminators against 9,000 points of Chaos-possessed Genestealer Cult army.


I have no problem with this personally, but you can't deny that there is a definite push towards getting gamers to join in in larger games within stores.
I'll agree that I've seen some stupidly-large Apocalypse games in the local GW on a Saturday, but the old pre-Apocalypse mega-battles that they held were also stupidly large, if not so stupidly... ;)

Edit - the WPS (http://www.the-wps.com/club-challenge-2009) in Liverpool in May is 2,150 for WFB, but still only 1,500 for 40k, so that's another with one increased size.

daemonkin
12-03-2009, 13:45
The guys at our club organised a 30K a side Guard vs Tau. Was an epic event with the guys working for over 2 months getting everything painted. Spectacular looking game but after 5 hours they had finished turn 1.

Not my cup of tea but I think everyone had a blast over the weekend.

D.

Master Jeridian
12-03-2009, 13:55
Yes, 1500pts and 2000pts are still the standard sizes for 40k and Fantasy respectively, but what you can 'buy' for 1500/2000pts increases with every new book!

A 2000pts Empire army with current and previous books can have a 100-200pts spare in the current incarnation (and old example I know, but it's one of my armies) with which to include more models (and so buy more).

40k Orks are an obvious example where you can cram in a lot more models (and so buy more).

Just look back 2, 5 or 10years and see that whilst the standard pts limit has remained the same, the armies that can fit within it have greatly increased (30pt Marines anyone?)- so please take into this 'stealth inflation' when saying that the pts limit hasn't increased.


As for the question- where will GW go next? Well your assuming every customer has been in the hobby for as long or longer than yourselves.
Jonny Teenager walking into the store to see pretty models isn't going to instantly have years of GW fluff, armies, models and support to feel jaded about.

So rehashing the same fluff, armies and models in new shiny books (Space Marines being a perfect example) has worked for years, because of new customers.

bert n ernie
12-03-2009, 16:13
Purely anecdotal evidence, but then so is yours.


I wholeheartedly agree on this one. I had assumed that since all of the minor tournaments, along with some larger ones, seem to be increasing in points that this was a drive on the behalf of gamesworkshop.

There is definitely an increase. Perhaps it is not as country-wide as I had assumed.
I don't think doubles tourneys and smaller tourneys are going to disappear. These will keep going, and I don't think I said that these were going away. However there is now large games more often than I have experienced before, and I do feel this is a deliberate push along the same veins as introducing the apoc ruleset.

I think Master Jedian has made a point, I'd have to check some of my own old rulebooks, but it seems there has been a pretty big change in the ammount of money you can spend per points since 2nd ed, if not between 3rd to 5th ed.

scarletsquig
12-03-2009, 16:39
In the short term, Planetstrike, followed by Space Hulk followed by The Hobbit.

Beyond 2010.. who knows? By that point Fantasy 8th edition will probably be on the cards, and we can get an entirely new load of rules and army books that aren't that much different to the old ones. I personally didn't see much of a point to releasing 7th edition, so the 8th edition release should be amusing.

IJW
12-03-2009, 16:50
Again - the only increases in points for tournaments that I'm aware of in the UK are Carnage and one of the WPS systems. I'd welcome hearing about others.
"all of the minor tournaments" only takes a single exception to prove it false, so I'm afraid that looks like hyperbole/exaggeration as well. :(

Points per model - 2nd to 3rd 40k was the big shift, with the recommended game size roughly doubling in terms of models on the table, but bear in mind that 2nd edition itself actually shrank the number of models you saw on a table compared to late-era RT.

On the subject of late-era RT, the sample army lists in the back of 'Ere We Go (1991) were 2,000 points. The Goff list had nearly 90 models including a Dreadnought, two Nobs Mobs, multiple buggies/wartraks and a couple of battlewagons. The basic Ork Boy was seven points. The other two sample lists were also 2k and had similar numbers of models, with the lowish numbers mostly being due to heavy weapons costing anything up to 75 points each. :eek:

bert n ernie
12-03-2009, 19:38
"all of the minor tournaments"

Oops. that should have been:
'all of the minor tournaments that I have heard about recently.'

The fact that things like heavy weapons meant that armies had quite small numbers seems to prove a great increase. I do remember my space wolf codex having a 2000pt list at the back, and that is smaller than a current tourney list (1500 or 1750).

IWJ, I'm wondering. Do you think there has not been any increase in the number of models/amount of money we are expected to invest in?

The only other books I have to compare are the 3rd and 4th ed IG at the moment.
There has been a reduction in the cost of rough riders, storm troopers, Ogryns and Vets. There has been little change elsewhere, but the hellhound has increased.
However the Hellhound rules changed drastically.
I'll leave it up to you to infer what you wish, as no matter what I say I am certain you will not see it the same way.

On the other hand, I think we're getting dangerously close to being completely off topic here.
I'm not sure where GW will go. I know that I am left wanting for regular enthusiasm for some of the smaller skirmish games, as they have very well balanced rule sets. I would not want GW to re-release another however. I no longer trust in their desire for balance, and I would prefer if they only tampered with their cash cows.

IJW
12-03-2009, 19:46
There's definitely been an increase (and I already said that earlier in the thread), but it's far smaller than the OP is making out - and is tiny in comparison to the 2nd-to-3rd ed. 40k increase.

Marshal Sinclair
12-03-2009, 20:08
2nd and 3rd were completely different games, having very little in common with each other. If you didn't know they were both 40k you'd likely not realise they were related, excepting the models. It's unfair to compare RT/2nd/3rd or onwards. RT was very different to 2nd, 2nd was completely different to what we have now.

shin'keiro
17-03-2009, 08:23
well for a start they have reduced points costs in all codeices thus people need to buy more to field the correct points sized armies.

W0lf
17-03-2009, 14:11
GW still have warhammer 30K to fall back on.

Because when all fails and the company is in turmoil.. primarchs and the horus heresy will save the day!