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View Full Version : GW should really add chaos cultists to Daemons and CSM...



omera
03-03-2009, 13:55
Its a shame that what makes up the bulk of the 'mortal' forces of Chaos has never been added to the game. Where are the cultists? All we have is Chaos Marines and Daemons.

Mannimarco
03-03-2009, 13:57
thats the lost and the damned your referring to, theres a forgeworld list with alpha legion marines taken as an elite choice. its a fun army to play

omera
03-03-2009, 13:59
thats the lost and the damned your referring to, theres a forgeworld list with alpha legion marines taken as an elite choice. its a fun army to play

I thought it was out of date. Do they actually sell chaos cultist models, or do I need to assemble them ALL with bits? Can I just have Nurgle cultists with a few plaguebearer squads and whatever I need for an HQ unit?

Tonberry
03-03-2009, 14:14
Do they actually sell chaos cultist models?

These (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/CHAOS_RENEGADES.html), or more specifically, these. (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/chaosrenmil.htm)

IronNerd
03-03-2009, 14:15
It would be nice to have some cultists... I'm not holding my breath.

FBI
03-03-2009, 14:15
I would love to see the Lost an the Damned get a codex of their own. I like the idea of a few chaos marine leading hosts of mutants, cultists and traitor guard.
I like Alpha Legion even more. But i don`t see it happening in the near future.

Mannimarco
03-03-2009, 14:15
they sell traitor guard models, its from IA the siege of vraks, i dont think you can do god specific cultists

if you dont want to go for the guard upgrade kits to make traitor guard (to expensive) cultists are easily made by combining WHFB marauder parts and catachan parts


wow ninjad 3 times

grissom2006
03-03-2009, 14:18
no to the deamon but yes to the chaos space marines

Kriegschmidt
03-03-2009, 14:38
I don't think cultists should be involved in the Chaos Daemons army as this army is supposed to represent a daemonic incursion - the gods summoning enough energy together to storm into the material world off their own bat. Not really traitors summoning them.

But (as has been said many, many times the world over) it would be nice to have a Lost & Damned codex army, which contained traitors, mutants, limited daemons and limited Chaos marines. I'm sure GW would ideally like to do it but it will certainly not be in the remotely near future.

AdmiralDick
03-03-2009, 18:17
Its a shame that what makes up the bulk of the 'mortal' forces of Chaos has never been added to the game. Where are the cultists? All we have is Chaos Marines and Daemons.

er, cultists have been a playable part of the game since their introducing to the game in RT, with two notable exceptions. in 3rd Ed, the codex changed from Chaos, to Chaos Space Marines, and so units that were not marines took a back seat, some, like Cultists were dropped altogether (though they were added in again later via Chapter Approved). 5th Ed's is the other exception, and that is not wholly surprising since they have taken the 3rd Ed's ideal a step further and annexed the Daemons to their own book.

personally, i have no issue with the idea of Cultists not being part of the Codex. whilst it would be nice to field them, i think it confuses the background to have them as unit in a CSM book. they aren't part of the CSM forces and CSM do not included them in their mission briefings. they are there as a meat shield or a distraction and always held in contempt and with a sense of derision.

Brother Valtarius
03-03-2009, 18:57
They did have as an option for an Alpha Legion army in the last codex, it annoyed me when they weren't in this codex as I had spent a fair old amount of money converting several units of them and they don't even look guardy enough to be traitor guard! They are full on cultists.

Znail
03-03-2009, 19:43
As long as you are playing with friends so wouldnt it be a problem adding some Cultists to a CSM force. Maybe use Militia stats from IG. Its not like CSM doesnt have some of the best Troop choises of any codex anyway so it probobly makes your army worse rather better to waste points on crap units.

Miggidy Mack
03-03-2009, 19:49
Every time I've played against a Lost & The Damned list or even just "traitor guard" it's been a blast. GW does indeed need this codex!

Lord Damocles
03-03-2009, 19:50
Bear in mind that adding dirt cheap hoardy troops to what is currently an elite heavy infantry-based army would be fairly unbalancing (huh, my Beserkers get a 4+ cover save from 4pt Cultists).
You'd probably find that to balance them properly they'd have to be reasonably expensive - maybe 7-8pts each with Conscript style stats.

Laser guided fanatic
03-03-2009, 20:08
Bear in mind that adding dirt cheap hoardy troops to what is currently an elite heavy infantry-based army would be fairly unbalancing (huh, my Beserkers get a 4+ cover save from 4pt Cultists).
You'd probably find that to balance them properly they'd have to be reasonably expensive - maybe 7-8pts each with Conscript style stats.

So by your logic Grotz should cost the same as Ork Boyz? Anyway I thought cultists were different from traitor guard, the ones in DoW don't look like guard to me.

jfrazell
03-03-2009, 20:12
Well historically, LATD had access to chaos marines, but only in extremely limited quantities. You would have to put that restriction to maintain balance.

sliganian
03-03-2009, 20:13
Modeling idea:

Put about a mass of Catachan/Zombie/Marauder figs on a big round base. Play the Crazed Cultist Mob as using the 'Spawn' rules

Lord Damocles
03-03-2009, 20:20
So by your logic Grotz should cost the same as Ork Boyz? Anyway I thought cultists were different from traitor guard, the ones in DoW don't look like guard to me.
The grots arn't screening highly elite (and expensive) units which can't just be thrown away though. Plus they're tiny, so the amount of actual screening they'll give to a much larger Ork Boy is limited.

That's without Cultists becoming a possible delivery system for Deamons (Greater and Lesser) as well...


At the end of the day, if you really want Cultists, then Vraxian Worker Rabble are your friends.

Goldenwolf
03-03-2009, 20:32
An Army codex, or even a Summer Booklet with them in it would be great, especially as so many of the Black Library books have them in it.

Part of the fun of that group is the modeling though. Buying Zombie, Marauders, Cadians, and Chaos Mutants, and welding them into a bizarre horde of the pantheon of your choice seems like the most fun part :)

Znail
03-03-2009, 20:47
Bear in mind that adding dirt cheap hoardy troops to what is currently an elite heavy infantry-based army would be fairly unbalancing (huh, my Beserkers get a 4+ cover save from 4pt Cultists).
You'd probably find that to balance them properly they'd have to be reasonably expensive - maybe 7-8pts each with Conscript style stats.

I dissagree. I would be happy that the CSM player didnt get anything better. It wouldnt take alot of effort to clear away that 'cover'. Unless its anti-MEQ weapons so would a screen of normal CSM last longer for the same points. At 3 points then I would consider them too good so no Grotz for CSM.

omera
03-03-2009, 20:55
Modeling idea:

Put about a mass of Catachan/Zombie/Marauder figs on a big round base. Play the Crazed Cultist Mob as using the 'Spawn' rules
You mean Chaos Spawn stats?

sliganian
03-03-2009, 20:59
You mean Chaos Spawn stats?

Umm.. yeah. Sorry, what else would I be referring to?

omera
03-03-2009, 21:00
Umm.. yeah. Sorry, what else would I be referring to?

I still haven't even started playing the game.

Lordsaradain
03-03-2009, 21:02
Latd including traitor marines, mutants cultists etc do need their own codex.

omera
03-03-2009, 21:10
I came up with the idea of using Skaven models. The Greater Daemon in charge of the Blighthaven cult decided to mutate all of his followers into a more appropriate symbol of plague - rat people. I'm particularly gonna use plague monks as I portray the cultists in my stories as being robed.

Earlydawn
03-03-2009, 21:11
If we want to go by the fluff, wouldn't cultists be best represented by several detachments of IG with a light infantry organization, plus a detachment or so of either Marines or Daemons?

totgeboren
03-03-2009, 21:12
I play traitor guard using the standard IG codex, and with the new codex, it will be even nicer! Conscripts for the rabble, and those penal legionnaires looks ace as some hardcore fanatics. Scouts, Stubborn and "Desperate" sounds like something that might work well enough to represent the really insane troopers.
Also, the new Ogryn will make awesome big mutants (I already have em modeled, though I have never used them cause the current rules for ogryn are so horrible i just cant bring myself to gimp my guards even more).
Commissars and Preachers turn into Chaos Enforcers and Demagogues, and the Primaris Psyker and Sanctioned psyker turn into Rogue Psykers.

Also, if you want a really badass Chaos boss, the Commissar lord work represent that just fine, with the stormtroopers being the inner circle honourguards.

And so on.

Though, its not really LatD when you lack daemons, and mutants. but its works well enough. :)

Brother Valtarius
03-03-2009, 21:12
Chaos Codex 3rd edition, page number 40 (alpha legion) whilst may not be legal in tournament lists etc. anymore as it is not the most recent codex. However in friendly games/ games in the shop this should not cause a problem aslong as the situation is explained.

It gives the stat line, points cost, weapons and even extra equipment/ abbilties cultists can be given. What more is needed?

omera
03-03-2009, 21:18
Since I'm playing Nurgle Daemons I can't use chaos spawns. What creature's stats would translate well for a mob of cultists? Plaguebearers maybe?

mattschuur
03-03-2009, 21:44
Well i wrote my own LaTD codex that i've used with friends in a couple of pick-up games. I even created my own units and special characters. However, i am by no means a legit codex writer and the fact that i've changed some rules every time i play should tell you that.:) And that is what's sad about LaTD not having a codex, it forces players to either shelve their models or find new ways to use them and thus defeat the whole purpose of buying them.

Most of the LaTD models are already present in the range via guard or chaos. You'd just need a book and some idea's about how to make your own models for those not directly present. Back when the eye of terror book came out GW sold a bag of mutants which consisted of random sprues ( I think ork, empire militia, catachans and vampire zombies) to make roughly 20 mutants. Is it really that hard to do again? Cultist are even easier. All you need is empire flagellants and some extra bitz. Literally, GW could release a book and maybe a few figs and have a valid army without having to change anything in the other ranges. Maybe someday we'll get a valid and reasonable dex for the footsoldiers of chaos, but i doubt it.

matt schuur

Znail
03-03-2009, 21:55
In general so is it easier to accept that you get an excisting unit that you normaly wouldnt be alowed then to make up rules for a new unit. Thats why I would recomend Militia. They are also not that great a choise in their own codex, wich makes it easier to swallow. Normal IG platoons do offer some cheap heavy weapons and such so are a bit better and thus less easy to sub in without causing an argument.

dal9ll
03-03-2009, 22:01
In short:

HELL YES GW needs to make legitimate rules for Cultists/Mutants/Traitor Guard. What were they thinking by declaring them to be the 'most common' troop at Chaos' disposal, yet making no models or rules for them?? GW obviously has its head up its ass on the matter, like it does with many (more like most) other pressing 40k issues.

Count de Monet
03-03-2009, 22:10
Modeling idea:

Put about a mass of Catachan/Zombie/Marauder figs on a big round base. Play the Crazed Cultist Mob as using the 'Spawn' rules

Oh, I like that. :) That might happen in the future...

Serg. Lynchbox
04-03-2009, 02:43
A guy at my GW store just uses the Daemon Hunters(Ironic huh?) codex allied with IG. It was very fun to play against him and he had so cool/scary looking models....

dugaal
04-03-2009, 02:59
Wait for after the IG codex; If that gives decent platoon options, along with Ogryns etc. you might be able to work that into a decent list (also as long as Witchhunters/Daemonhunters are still able to ally, you can counts-as some CSM, or use their unique options in different forms)

Also, with the IG 'human' codex out they can perhaps start thinking about chaos humans.

It would be great if they just put out a White Dwarf list, so they aren't expected to release models, and thus some full release (maybe re-release those conversion packs)

sliganian
04-03-2009, 13:43
My favourite (and only) tournament have a special Custom set of LaTD rules folks can use at their tourneys:

http://www.astronomi-con.com/

Go to the FAQ section, then scroll down to 'What armies will be allowed?', and there is a link to the PDF.

Sceleris
04-03-2009, 16:18
Sliganian - IMO that's a pretty reasonable version of the original LatD list updated to v5 C:CSM. I've used it with no real issues in pickup games.

My LatD army is now an IG one (including ogryn, concripts & rough riders) with =][= allies (WH Inq Lord, death cult assassins and storm troopers).

As previously mentioned with the new IG codex around the corner it looks like there is some scope for a LatD list from that - better ogryn and penal legions sound fun.

Grazzy
04-03-2009, 16:25
They should definitley be in the game.

They are a non-meq army with great fluff, great modelling opportunities and the chance of being fun to play against - all the things i look for in an army.

Brucopeloso
05-03-2009, 08:00
Latd including traitor marines, mutants cultists etc do need their own codex.

Indeed! That was a fun army to play and an absolute blast to model and paint!

WarpWhisperer
05-03-2009, 08:10
Some Alpha Legion players use the Generic Lesser Daemon rules in C:CSM to allow them to proxy their (previously infiltrating) Cultist models.

But I don't think there's an appropriate unit type for this in the Daemon Codex....

Ddraiglais
05-03-2009, 08:26
Its a shame that what makes up the bulk of the 'mortal' forces of Chaos has never been added to the game. Where are the cultists? All we have is Chaos Marines and Daemons.

Cultists don't make up the bulk of Chaos armies. Mortal warriors and mutants do. Cultists are devout worshippers. The AL cultists were suppose to be Chaos worshippers on Imperial worlds that would aid the AL. Of course you said you haven't even started playing, so I won't get too nastalgic about 2nd ed. :)

I do agree wholeheartedly that GW needs to come out with some kind of LatD list. Until then there are the IG and Ork codices. The IG dex works o.k. for traitor guard. The Ork dex is pretty good for mutants. My biggest problem is that the IG dex assumes well drilled and well supplied troops. I know they have options for feral type stuff, but it just doesn't fit 100% with me. The IG dex is good for Blood Pact type troops, but I think it misses for the Chaotic masses that spill out of the Eye.

I haven't tried the FW list. The random leadership keeps me from trying it. I could see huge leadership penalties if a champion fell or something, but to just roll for leadership seems a bit weird to me. Sometimes GW goes a little too far trying to make Chaos too random. Chaos is Chaos because of all the strife and unpredictability of it's followers. It's not Chaos because of dumb luck.

RexTalon
05-03-2009, 11:05
Latd including traitor marines, mutants cultists etc do need their own codex.

Yea, I've always thought that the Chaos codex should include a 0-3 entry for anything in power armor or higher. Chaos armies should be hordes of devotees throwing themselves on the swords of the righteous to allow the berserk fighters a chance to cause some real damage before at last the epitome of evil, the Chaos marines arrive to take the heads of the most pure.

WarpWhisperer
05-03-2009, 11:20
I do agree wholeheartedly that GW needs to come out with some kind of LatD list.

There is an Apoc formation here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180083_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_The_Lost_and_the_Damned.pdf) if you wanted to play a friendly game against a willing opponent... not really balanced as an entire army, of course.

Brucopeloso
05-03-2009, 11:22
Yea, I've always thought that the Chaos codex should include a 0-3 entry for anything in power armor or higher. Chaos armies should be hordes of devotees throwing themselves on the swords of the righteous to allow the berserk fighters a chance to cause some real damage before at last the epitome of evil, the Chaos marines arrive to take the heads of the most pure.


Yup that's why we need a Chaos marine codex for pure CSM forces and a SEPARATE LaTD codex made up of mutant, cultist and traitor units with the option of one or two CSM units or characters....... yeah I know wishlisting but what the heck!

Brucopeloso
05-03-2009, 11:23
I would even throw in a few alien mercenaries just for kicks!

marv335
05-03-2009, 11:51
Most of the chaos players around here are using lesser daemons as cultists as no problems.

RexTalon
05-03-2009, 21:24
I would even throw in a few alien mercenaries just for kicks!

Naw, all the other alien species are smart enough to avoid true evil when they see it. Not us humans though. ;) I offer my first marriage as proof.

Does anyone else find it interesting that GW makes the IG codex so versatile because there are many different types of worlds that influence their fluff, but the Chaos codex doesn't get any cultist love or traitor entries despite the obvious influence they have on Chaos fluff?

TimLeeson
05-03-2009, 21:51
I want to see Chaos Aliens more myself, but I think they should keep the daemon book as it is, add Legion stuff to the Chaos marine book and THEN do a Lost and the damned book which would have everything else including ; Mutants, Traitors, Zombies, Cultists and Aliens.

Brucopeloso
06-03-2009, 08:55
Naw, all the other alien species are smart enough to avoid true evil when they see it. Not us humans though. ;) I offer my first marriage as proof.




dark eldar? Then again they don't get married so you may have a point ;)

AdmiralDick
06-03-2009, 19:33
If we want to go by the fluff, wouldn't cultists be best represented by several detachments of IG with a light infantry organization, plus a detachment or so of either Marines or Daemons?

generally speaking, the term 'cultist' is usually applied to untrained individuals in 40k. so, whilst it would be technically correct (because anyone who worships Chaos is a cultist), it the well organised, drilled and equipped IG would not be the best representation of the rabble that would be conned into walking slowly towards the enemy guns.


Well i wrote my own LaTD codex that i've used with friends in a couple of pick-up games. I even created my own units and special characters.

that sounds pretty interesting. is there any way i can get a look?


My favourite (and only) tournament have a special Custom set of LaTD rules folks can use at their tourneys:

http://www.astronomi-con.com/

Go to the FAQ section, then scroll down to 'What armies will be allowed?', and there is a link to the PDF.

good find.

Tempus Fugitives (http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/index.php) have their own Lost and the Damned list that you can use in any of their events. you will have to register with the site (for free) to gain access to the download section where it is towards the bottom. they've got tonnes of other cool resources their too.


Cultists don't make up the bulk of Chaos armies. Mortal warriors and mutants do.

hey Ddraiglais. long time, no see.

i'm not sure i agree with this sharp distinction. cultists are anyone who is part of a Chaos cult. and anyone who worships Chaos is part of such a cult. those that fight on behalf of and before the CSM are generally speaking open worshippers of Chaos, or ones in denial/deluded.


Most of the chaos players around here are using lesser daemons as cultists as no problems.

its easier than trying to imagine that they are daemons :p


I want to see Chaos Aliens more myself

what an unexpected response Mr Leeson ;)

did you have anything in particular in mind Chaork Stormboyz of Khorne? Slaaneshi Eldar Croneworld revenants? bestial Chaos Squats? or something altogether more 'exotic'?

if i know you, it'll be more than just a current army with spikes on.


Does anyone else find it interesting that GW makes the IG codex so versatile because there are many different types of worlds that influence their fluff, but the Chaos codex doesn't get any cultist love or traitor entries despite the obvious influence they have on Chaos fluff?

i think there is some logical disconnect in your train of thought. there are no Space Marines in the IG list and vice versa, so it is not surprising that there are no Cultists in the CSM list.

RexTalon
06-03-2009, 21:44
i think there is some logical disconnect in your train of thought. there are no Space Marines in the IG list and vice versa, so it is not surprising that there are no Cultists in the CSM list.

You can take Grey Knights with IG. You used to be able to ally SM with IG. SM and IG DO fight together. Cultists USED to be part of the Chaos line. The logical disconnect is in the rules, not in me. Or maybe you just haven't been playing long enough to remember when you could legally take them in the same army.

AdmiralDick
06-03-2009, 22:36
at nearly 20 years of experience with 40k, i guess i'm still something of a n00b.

your argument rested on the fact that the current C: IG allowed you to field more than one legion of Imperial Guard, ergo the C: CSM should include a cultist option. that is a logical disconnect. there is no reason why the one implies the other.

in 2nd Ed you could take allies as part of a single army, but you could just as easily take additional Eldar and Squat units as you could SM. the mechanic was designed to represent two independent forces working together. the rules changed under 3rd Ed, and the concept of what your army represented changed also. you could no longer take to independent forces as one army, you had to field them as two side-by-side.

if Cultists are included in the game it should be in an armylist independent of SM. they are not part of the same organisation.

RexTalon
07-03-2009, 08:02
your argument rested on the fact that the current C: IG allowed you to field more than one legion of Imperial Guard, ergo the C: CSM should include a cultist option. that is a logical disconnect. there is no reason why the one implies the other.

in 2nd Ed you could take allies as part of a single army, but you could just as easily take additional Eldar and Squat units as you could SM. the mechanic was designed to represent two independent forces working together. the rules changed under 3rd Ed, and the concept of what your army represented changed also. you could no longer take to independent forces as one army, you had to field them as two side-by-side.

if Cultists are included in the game it should be in an armylist independent of SM. they are not part of the same organisation.

I see what you're saying. I only read your comment to me, and thought you were arguing that they (Chaos) shouldn't have cultists at all, which is what I disagree with.
Since GW is going to go with the "work from one codex" scheme, then I would have to regretfully agree that they should be part of some other codex. Perhaps there should be Chaos Cultists, and Chaos Marines. The Codex: Cults of Chaos should have rules for Aliens since obviously they aren't immune to the sway of the dark powers, while the CSM codex would just concentrate on the fallen SM legions, both books having access to the lesser deamons in a generic format.
The reason I say "regretfully" being that I don't thing GW would ever actually do this, despite it being the most beholden to the fluff.

In fact, doing the same thing with the Imperial forces would make HUGE amounts of sense too. The Codex: Cults of Chaos book would have Cult armies, access to defiled alien species, and rogue Inquisitors, while the Codex: Armies of the Imperium book would have the IG, sympathetic aliens, and loyalist Inquisitors. Of course both books would be pretty damned thick (2nd ed codex style) but they would be really wide reaching, able to encompass variant armies from each side without having the overt power of SM while maintaining the integrity of weapon types. (so we don't end up with 3 different Assault Cannon effects!)

TimLeeson
07-03-2009, 08:57
what an unexpected response Mr Leeson ;)

did you have anything in particular in mind Chaork Stormboyz of Khorne? Slaaneshi Eldar Croneworld revenants? bestial Chaos Squats? or something altogether more 'exotic'?

if i know you, it'll be more than just a current army with spikes on.

I was thinking of races like the Saruthi, Bale-Childer, Reptos, Scaephylyds, Slaughth, Yu'vath and other entire alien civilizations that have fallen to Chaos. I love the idea of whole alien races falling and i think it shows how vast and powerful Chaos is - and an important element. Mix all that with human elements like the traitors, mutants, zombies and such and you have one hell of an awesome and varied army.

Ddraiglais
12-03-2009, 09:08
There is an Apoc formation here (http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180083_Chaos_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_The_Lost_and_the_Damned.pdf) if you wanted to play a friendly game against a willing opponent... not really balanced as an entire army, of course.

Thank you for trying to help. I understand that GW, FW, BoLS, and fans have put together lists for cultists, beastmen, traitor guard, genesteeler cults, etc. Those lists are great. Personally, I only play Apocalypse. We use all sorts of non-official rules for warmachines, races, whatever. My big complaint is the officialness of it. If I wanted to play a pickup game or a tournament, those armies are off limits. I have no desire to do that, but there are those that do want to. The mutant hordes and masses of Chaos warriors outnumber CSM at least millions to one, if not more (I'd probably say billions). I don't see how GW can ignore such a huge force. I also can't see how GW can ignore a cash cow. There a tons of people who like to convert and paint more than play. LatD is a converter's wet dream. It's an army that GW wouldn't have to make many (or any) miniatures for. All they would have to do is have a couple of guys write a list and playtest it. It blows my mind that GW doesn't see this.




hey Ddraiglais. long time, no see.

i'm not sure i agree with this sharp distinction. cultists are anyone who is part of a Chaos cult. and anyone who worships Chaos is part of such a cult. those that fight on behalf of and before the CSM are generally speaking open worshippers of Chaos, or ones in denial/deluded.


What's up Admiral? Between work and life, I don't get as much computer time as I use to. It'll be even less if I go back to school like I want.

I guess I'm more influenced by 2nd ed. There were two distinct lists in that dex. There are also some of the novels I've read. It seems to me that the vast majority of the citizens of the EoT are just humans, mutants, etc that fight a lot. Most of them don't seem to overtly worship the Chaos powers too much. There are temples and such. Some of them do worship the Chaos powers and, and some of the champions will call on the Chaos gods for assistance, but I don't know if I would say most of them were cultists. The word cultist usually conjures up Imperial citizens worshipping Chaos secretly in my mind. Even though I probably wouldn't change the statline in the game, I view the average Chaos warrior from the Eye as much tougher, stronger, and better at fighting than the average Imperial citizen meeting in a basement to do a little chanting.

I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but that's how I see a distinction between a cultist and a mortal warrior or Chaos.

While we're on the subject, they need to bring beastmen, ogryn, minotaurs, mortal champions, etc back.



if Cultists are included in the game it should be in an armylist independent of SM. they are not part of the same organisation.

I disagree. There should be a mechanic for AL to get cultists. I could also argue that other legions have used traitor guard/human slaves as fodder. I don't know how you would balance it, but it is in the fluff. At the very least AL should get them.

Industrial Propaganda
12-03-2009, 10:30
I too use the Codex:Imperial Guards for my LatD army.

Guards = Traitor guards.
Conscripts = Chaos cultists
Ogryns = Big mutants

and with the new codex, penal legion will make excellent Mutants stats.

RexTalon
12-03-2009, 10:44
The new psykers are going to fit in nicely with that setup.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
12-03-2009, 10:49
. they aren't part of the CSM forces and CSM do not included them in their mission briefings. they are there as a meat shield or a distraction and always held in contempt and with a sense of derision.

Aren't all guardsmen held in derision?


So by your logic Grotz should cost the same as Ork Boyz? Anyway I thought cultists were different from traitor guard, the ones in DoW don't look like guard to me.

There's no set look for cultists. And traitor guard would be considered cultists in they worshiped the Ruinous Powers. But not all cultists are traitor guard.




Part of the fun of that group is the modeling though. Buying Zombie, Marauders, Cadians, and Chaos Mutants, and welding them into a bizarre horde of the pantheon of your choice seems like the most fun part :)

I like the idea... but what about cultists that don't look half-dead and rotting, or aren't running around shirtless (with or without a spikey helmet). And where can I get chaos mutant models? I didn't know they had those.


Since I'm playing Nurgle Daemons I can't use chaos spawns. What creature's stats would translate well for a mob of cultists? Plaguebearers maybe?

I don't see what playing demons has to do with a LatD army. IMO a mob of cultists = a squad of guardsmen conscripts. They have bad BS, armor, and leadership, but there is tons of them.

And just because your army doesn't allow spawn doesn't mean you can't use the bits in the box. For conversion purposes, the chaos spawn kit is one of the best you can get for cool, chaos bits.

WarpWhisperer
12-03-2009, 11:28
And where can I get chaos mutant models? I didn't know they had those.

There was a chaos mutant sprue that came with CSM boxes until the latest re-release; now that there are spawn and possessed sprues, I'm not sure it's still available.... hold on.... ah, here it is. (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp;jsessionid=55A7FD543B83EA066484A E94C537EE87?catId=cat1300063&prodId=prod1290060&rootCatGameStyle=) The chaos mutants in the original LatD list in C:Eye of Terror were generally combinations of this sprue and kit bashing of guard, orks and zombie parts.

@Ddraiglais: Pleasure.

taaln
12-03-2009, 14:09
someone at GW took the time to make a Apocalypse data sheet for LatD so chances are somebody has thought of building a LatD codex. the amount of diversity within such a list would be mind blowing, and that is the problem.
if GW did make this codex they would have to make new models, a dedicated LatD range.
most 'new' codexes(?) are just cut and paste from the previous ones when it come to a big chunk background so GW would need to do alot of original background work on LatD.

of course there would always be something that would be left out because there just isn't enough space in a hundred page codex for everything nowdays. :D

Mannimarco
12-03-2009, 15:11
i reckon its only a matter of time, after all we habe seen chaos broken down in WHFB from a book containing daemons, warriors and beastmen to these all having their own books, we have already seen the start of it in 40k with daemons now being seperate from codex CSM, fingers crossed we will see a codex lost and the damned in the future

AdmiralDick
13-03-2009, 09:33
Aren't all guardsmen held in derision?

absolutely. that's why you can't play a pick-up game with SM and IG in the same army.

SM and CSM will routinely use lesser mortals as part of their battle plan, that we can all agree on. however, they use them as a tool, not as a equal (CSM even more so than SM).

sure when Chaos takes to the battlefield there are lots of unaugmented warriors, but that will be so that the CSM can get on with their own thing. hence non-marines should not be in a marine list as a standard part of the game. but that won't stop you from playing apoc with both, or armies having special rules that effect one another.

RexTalon
13-03-2009, 12:27
absolutely. that's why you can't play a pick-up game with SM and IG in the same army.

I disagree. You can't play them together because it would be combining the best of both types of armies. You would have super shooty tanks and super troops to hold the line. I don't think it has anything to do with the SM mocking IG.

Don't forget that the Big E was a human. He was a super psyker and immortal, but he wasn't augmented like a SM. The Human Form is sacred and every IG is the embodiment of sacrifice to the ideals that the Emperor held highest. Chief of which is that only the Human should dominate the Galaxy.

pringles978
13-03-2009, 13:11
just out of curiosity, would anyone here object if they went to their local games club and i was using the LATD army from the campaign book with the 13th co in? (name escapes me at the mo)

i know its not tourney legal but its not exactly overpowered

RexTalon
13-03-2009, 22:43
The Eye of Terror Campaign book. It would be out of date, I'm pretty sure.

I play against LATD army all the time. I would have no problems.

AdmiralDick
13-03-2009, 23:08
I disagree. You can't play them together because it would be combining the best of both types of armies. You would have super shooty tanks and super troops to hold the line.

that sounds pretty much exactly like the up coming IG codex?! the major problem would not be the tanks at all, it would be the cheap fodder acting as a movable shield for the altogether better troops.

either way, they would not be insurmountable issues. given the right designers and enough play-testing something could be worked out. the reason they are not together is because they are separate armies and separate fighting forces.


I don't think it has anything to do with the SM mocking IG.

i'm not sure i ever said that the SM mocked the IG, nor that that was the reason why you cannot take them together. however, all the background implies that the SM are not particularly sympathetic toward the Guard.



Don't forget that the Big E was a human.

only in the same sense Dr Manhattan was human.

PondaNagura
13-03-2009, 23:10
there's always th duel attachment way to go, an army of CSM and an army of Guard...of course anything above 3k points, and people will insist Apocalypse!..though i'm more of a regular 40k player (when i actually get around to playing).

recently i've been considering other dexes like the DH with IG conscripts, since this list is still valid. and even been looking at Tyranids, with synapse creatures being demagogues/psykers and then just hosts of human/mutant-rabble 'gaunt broods', though it would be hard to incorporate any form of marines into that list...but nids are already rather hellish, so daemons wouldn't be hard to represent.

Harbinger
13-03-2009, 23:14
Cultists (and daemons) helped to make Chaos separate from SM. The Cultists don't need to be a full IG-style list. They can simply have troops similar to IG conscripts, LatD Mutants and Big Mutants. It would be better than the current trend of simply making IG traitor lists and giving CSM spikey variants of Imperial vehicles (ie. Vindicators and Raptors [nothing against Iron Warriors or Raptors]).

Chaos shouldn't be spikey marines. It needs a different feel, which cultists, mutants, and dameons help to provide.

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2009, 23:17
While I would love to see a LatD codex I really feel that the one, single, most glaring omission from Codex Chaos Space Marines was a "generic cultist" squad. Seriously, I rate that as the worst thing about the codex even more than the loss of cult terminators and generic daemons.

I've been playing Dawn of War quite a bit and I love the fact that you can (and indeed usually must) start with cultists and you can pad out your forces with cheap cannon fodder you can sacrifice mercilessly.

A generic cultist squad (whether it counted as a Troops choice or not) with a small selection of weapon options and perhaps a CSM champion would give us chaos-heavy LatD people some possibility of using our mutants and traitors. They don't need infiltrate or anything like that - just keep them cheap and dirty. It would give Alpha Legion players nothing to complain about and really enhance the idea that the Chaos Space Marines callously sacrifice their followers in the crucible of battle.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2009, 00:15
Cultists (and daemons) helped to make Chaos separate from SM. The Cultists don't need to be a full IG-style list. They can simply have troops similar to IG conscripts, LatD Mutants and Big Mutants. It would be better than the current trend of simply making IG traitor lists and giving CSM spikey variants of Imperial vehicles (ie. Vindicators and Raptors [nothing against Iron Warriors or Raptors]).

Chaos shouldn't be spikey marines. It needs a different feel, which cultists, mutants, and dameons help to provide.

Even without cultists chaos space marines are much more than space marines.

Also, those are separate fighting force, which equals separate codex - until imperium get one big codex for both SM and IG.

RexTalon
14-03-2009, 01:03
that sounds pretty much exactly like the up coming IG codex?! the major problem would not be the tanks at all, it would be the cheap fodder acting as a movable shield for the altogether better troops.
The new IG codex is a sore spot for me, but that's a whole other discussion. Suffice to say, as an IG player, I'm not happy with some of the changes.
However, I disagree that what I said is what the new codex will be. What I said was good troops that can hold the line (SM) would be backed up by the best tanks (LRBT), which is what you alluded to in the next paragraph about them being separate fighting forces. Which isn't the same thing as having worthless troops shielding tanks.

If you allow IG to be in the same army as SM it wouldn't be against fluff, it would just create a gaming problem because certain beardy individuals would just take the best parts of both forces instead of creating a fluffy army.

For instance, it would be fine to take a SM tac squad in a balanced IG army or perhaps a squad of scouts, but to take nothing but IG tanks and SM troops would be unbalanced and unfluffy. There would have to be severe restrictions and you just end up hamstringing the whole codex with piles of rules restrictions.


i'm not sure i ever said that the SM mocked the IG, nor that that was the reason why you cannot take them together. however, all the background implies that the SM are not particularly sympathetic toward the Guard.

See your post (#62) above. Look up the word "derision".
And I don't think it's that they aren't sympathetic either. They just have an entirely different modus operandi and relationship with The Emperor, which the IG will never understand. It's like me saying, "I worship your father, and all of us, even you, should do the same." You would disagree, and counter with something like, "We should all respect him and YOU should worship him. Also, since I'm his son, you should respect the hell out of me too."

only in the same sense Dr Manhattan was human. I'll have to take your word. I haven't seen the movie yet.

But then again, this is all way the heck off topic. Let's just agree to disagree.

ratfusion
14-03-2009, 01:13
Before the codex daemons rumors started slipping I assumed for _sure_ they'd have tons of cheap cultists summoning all of those daemons in. Why wouldn't you?

feintstar
14-03-2009, 03:23
Something I personally am a big fan of is the adversaries rules in both the Inquisition Dexes. If they were tweaked and then made 'true legal' for anyone to play vs anyone, then they would make the ultimate Lost and Damned list.