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View Full Version : Avoiding Lizardmen Cheese (what is lizardmen cheese?)



dunagrad
04-03-2009, 15:07
I'm not sure if this goes under Tactics or general discussion so I'll post it in tactics to be moved later if necessary.

I've never played in any tournaments, but I would like to with my lizardmen army. However, I want to make sure I build an army that is Tournament fair and won't be accused of being cheesy either on the table or online here when I post it. So my question then, is, what sorts of things would be considered cheesy in a lizardmen army? I did a search for posts containing both the words lizardmen and the word cheesy in the title, but found nothing. So I apologize if this topic has already been covered.

Jormi_Boced
04-03-2009, 15:23
I would say it is hard to say since they just came out with a new book so many things haven't been fully tested.

I think some people will consider an all Steggie army to be cheesey. I am not fully convinced that it will be that powerfull, but I am also not sure it would be real fun to play. I do think it would look kick ass though.

neXus6
04-03-2009, 15:30
No, I wouldn't say an ALL stegadon army would be cheesy...but many stegadons, backed up by support units and casters probably will be.

I know it's early days yet but Engines of the Gods seem to be the new 100% must have unit, and it's not that surprising.

Edit
04-03-2009, 15:57
I think its hard not to deathstar with the list they have, and some people could tag it cheesy for that. But the way TG and slann mesh together so well, with their high costs as well, even when designing a normal list it tends to be 40-50% of the army. If you are not using a slann, you are probably more large target oriented by default. I don't think I would call it cheesy after making a few test lists with the book, it just seems those are the ways the book leads.

dunagrad
04-03-2009, 16:01
In that same vein, I think a mostly Terradon army would be pretty cool, but also probably cheesy. Still, just imagine how many rocks there'd be on the field at the end of the battle.

Jormi_Boced
04-03-2009, 16:04
How many temple guards does it take to make it cheesey?

Spirit
04-03-2009, 16:20
An all terradon army would suck. 1 or 2 units are great for what they need to do, but more than that is just a waste of 30 poins per model.

Edit
04-03-2009, 16:28
I don't think its cheesy, just the way it is designed, but say a decent slann (not fully decked out) =485pts
21 TG (to make a nice 5x5 block) with FC is like 376-ish without a magic banner which could add up to 50 more

so not going all out you are around 860, and can easily top 1200 if you add a scar vet and pimp the toad and use a magic banner

not saying its bad, just I didn't even realize i was doing it til I actually placed the peices together. Seperately the toad, the unit, the fact he is a bsb, and the scar vet are not all that bad, but when put together, with the bonuses for them being together, its a nasty combo, and I could see a whine or two about it.

Spirit
04-03-2009, 17:23
I don't think its cheesy, just the way it is designed, but say a decent slann (not fully decked out) =485pts
21 TG (to make a nice 5x5 block) with FC is like 376-ish without a magic banner which could add up to 50 more

so not going all out you are around 860, and can easily top 1200 if you add a scar vet and pimp the toad and use a magic banner

not saying its bad, just I didn't even realize i was doing it til I actually placed the peices together. Seperately the toad, the unit, the fact he is a bsb, and the scar vet are not all that bad, but when put together, with the bonuses for them being together, its a nasty combo, and I could see a whine or two about it.

The whine is using lord croak. Unbreakable unit and anything that wants to kill it in close combat has to face 4 castings of 6" range 2d6 S4 (5?) hits,

Lord croak = cheese personified, only more skeletal than usual cheese.

blackjack
04-03-2009, 18:13
I honestly belive there is not cheese in the Lizardman army. EOTG is cute but warmachines where born to take it down. The Skink priest is very vulnerable in CC. and the high cost means you really need to use it in CC to get your points out of it.

Edit
04-03-2009, 19:27
I can't really comment on special characters, we don't use them where I play, so I don't even bother looking at them.

Amornar
04-03-2009, 20:10
I think that the new book is actually really well balanced (I know scary right?) and the only real way I can see cheese is to take either Chakax and a HUGE unit of TG and a fully decked out slann or Chakax and a HUGE unit of TG and Kroak. Either one you are going to be paying massive amounts of points for, unlike the cheese some..other...armies can field.

Nationalmaverick
04-03-2009, 22:27
I agree fully that the new book is pretty balanced (however, its about as deep and fulfilling as virginal sex).

However certain things that I've done in friendly games have worked so well its been a bit unsporting in house games.

Drop Rocks has become pretty unpopular around here after my standard 5 man unit wiped out skulltaker and 4 Crushers, same on a steam tank, a unit of Black Guard and a hand full of chariots mwahahha all hail the Dons.

Also a fully tooled out Lore of Heavens Slann and Tet'oeko have done some things that I'm not proud of.

Skinks in a water feature.

Kroxigors in skink units are getting light to medium nerf calls because of the immune to fear/cause fear thing but I've heard it come from a Daemon player who subsequently nearly got a range ruler rammed we're the sun don't shine.

slingersam
04-03-2009, 22:55
The only thing I don't like about the lizardmen is thier
slight lack of a heavy hitter.

Foegnasher
05-03-2009, 02:20
...a Daemon player who subsequently nearly got a range ruler rammed we're the sun don't shine.


this should be the default response to anyone who plays demons.

woodulikeanother
05-03-2009, 02:38
The whine is using lord croak. Unbreakable unit and anything that wants to kill it in close combat has to face 4 castings of 6" range 2d6 S4 (5?) hits,

Lord croak = cheese personified, only more skeletal than usual cheese.

what you take 4 times that spell of 2D6 from him when in combat?

dunagrad
05-03-2009, 02:56
I don't think its cheesy, just the way it is designed, but say a decent slann (not fully decked out) =485pts
21 TG (to make a nice 5x5 block) with FC is like 376-ish without a magic banner which could add up to 50 more

so not going all out you are around 860, and can easily top 1200 if you add a scar vet and pimp the toad and use a magic banner

not saying its bad, just I didn't even realize i was doing it til I actually placed the peices together. Seperately the toad, the unit, the fact he is a bsb, and the scar vet are not all that bad, but when put together, with the bonuses for them being together, its a nasty combo, and I could see a whine or two about it.
Okay, along those same lines ... you mentioned the scar-vet. What about taking Chakax with that deathstar unit? Clearly GW designed him for the very purpose of filling that spot in a TG/Slann unit, but does he add to the cheese then, or no?

Amornar
05-03-2009, 04:01
I agree fully that the new book is pretty balanced (however, its about as deep and fulfilling as virginal sex).


You sir have just made my signature, I just can't stop laughing. Although I agree on your other points as well.

j-k-martin
05-03-2009, 05:27
Trying to avoid being called cheese is a good goal but sadly it's impossible. There are a set of players out there that will lose a game, and before giving a moments thought about what to do better next time, will simply call your list cheese. Rather then think for one moment that thier list and play style could use work, they call your army cheese and that makes them feel like it's not their fault they lost. The good news is that most players are not like this and if you play those people they will rise to the challenge rather then whine about yoyur list. Play units and tactics that you and join and leave the name callers in the dust.

Spirit
05-03-2009, 10:57
The only thing I don't like about the lizardmen is thier
slight lack of a heavy hitter.

Stegadon....
Stegadon, 2d6+1 impact hits
Stegadon, engine, hits hard then hites everything near even harder.
Carnosaur
Heroes with 4 attacks and up to S7
Kroxigor with 3 S6 attacks, fear and M6.

Nah id say they have heavy hitters covered.


what you take 4 times that spell of 2D6 from him when in combat?

Yea, lord croak can cast 2d6 S4(5) hits on every unit within 6" (including ones in combat), as many times as he has power dice to cast the spell. There will be 6 power dice, so thats 4 attempts on 2 dice, most of which will probably suceed.

I honestly think he will be the new thorek, you cant avoid him, because too many points are in the unit, and he will blast you at range anyway, you cant shoot him easily because of the ease at which lizards can screen units(hell, top it off with a bsb int there with -1 or 2 to hit from shooting) , you cant close combat him for the reasons noted above. Good luck.

Dokushin
05-03-2009, 14:05
There will be 6 power dice, so thats 4 attempts on 2 dice
:eyebrows:

Yeah, I can see Kroak being a huge hassle. I don't think he's going to hit major-broken status for one reason: if you break/steal that one spell, he's powerless. It does count as a spell, and it's the only one he has.

EvC
05-03-2009, 14:10
Yeah, but spell destroyers are incredibly rare. Still, good if you have Black Tongue and Infernal Puppet! :D

The only cheese I would say so far is two Engines + Slann. Especially if the Slann has +1PD per spell. That's like 16 power dice a phase, 8 dispel dice, two massive terror causers, LD9 cold blooded across the army, etc. Scary stuff!

Shamfrit
05-03-2009, 14:13
Wow, whoever said Slann need to cost around 485 is obviously powergaming.

Mine costs...ermm, like, 365?

I take 13 Temple Guard, full command and either the Curse Charm or Stupidity Banner for them. 240-60ish. 600 my Slann unit costs.

I generally think the book is balanced all in all, there's nothing broken, just, really hard sometimes. Lore of Metal Slann is deadly!

jax40kplyr1
05-03-2009, 14:15
I have to agree with EvC that a combination of a Slann and 2 EOTG can be considered "cheesy" by some players. Referred by folks at my store as the "Gungun list", they have pretty much demolished/steam rolled through everything that I've played against. Some people have looked down at the D6 Str 4 hits as weak for the points, but try losing 4 or 5 Dragon Princes a turn from that. Or tie up a player for a turn or 2 with your saurus spearmen while the EOTG whittles them down a rank or two a turn.
Either way, I personally think the book is extremely well balanced. Originally sold on the Old Blood/Carnosaur and other combos, I'm starting to notice how diverse the book and different strategies and playing styles can be.

infernus31
05-03-2009, 15:20
Still, good if you have Black Tongue and Infernal Puppet!

I thought Kroak was immune so it wont really affect him>?

I play the gungan list it works quite well, wouldn't say it's OTT but is able to handle some of the - lesser evils that the daemons and vampires can throw.

Shamfrit
05-03-2009, 15:24
The Gungan list is a Warriors of Chaos list championed by me and Sergrum, I might be a Lizard player now, but use another Star Wars reference please :p

EvC
05-03-2009, 16:43
Wow, whoever said Slann need to cost around 485 is obviously powergaming.

Mine costs...ermm, like, 365?

I take 13 Temple Guard, full command and either the Curse Charm or Stupidity Banner for them. 240-60ish. 600 my Slann unit costs.

Yep, it's a good un. Just last week I lost my entire unit of Temple Guard with Slann (And the support Saurus unit I sent in to help out!) against a 13 power dice VC army, and while the loss of those units was harsh, simply losing them in that case did not lose me the game. It speaks volumes for how well-designed Lizardmen are that they can lose a Slann on turn 3 against a well-known power-list and still claim a draw :D


I thought Kroak was immune so it wont really affect him>?

D'oh! Damn special characters :p

Edit: I checked and he's not immune, unless I missed it. Game on!

kaintxu
06-03-2009, 09:48
Yep, it's a good un. Just last week I lost my entire unit of Temple Guard with Slann (And the support Saurus unit I sent in to help out!) against a 13 power dice VC army, and while the loss of those units was harsh, simply losing them in that case did not lose me the game. It speaks volumes for how well-designed Lizardmen are that they can lose a Slann on turn 3 against a well-known power-list and still claim a draw :D


Which power list are you talking about, all ghould + drakenhof black guard and toons of PD?

EvC
06-03-2009, 14:01
Mostly Ghouls, 3 Vamps + 1 Necro + 2 bounds for loads of magic, big unit of Grave Guard, 2 Varghulfs.

swarmofseals
06-03-2009, 15:11
Correct me if I'm wrong but in a 2000 point game you could actually take a fully decked out slann (or kroak), and THREE engines of the gods ridden by lv 2 skink priests.

Lord:
Full slann = 525 pts (or Kroak for 600 pts)

Heroes:
Level 2 Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods: 390
Level 2 Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods: 390
Level 2 Skink Priest on an Engine of the Gods: 390

Core:

10 skinks: 50
10 skinks: 50

Special:

10 Temple Guard: 160


TOTAL: 1955 pts, or 2030 with kroak, so if you wanted to take kroak you'd have to trim a level off one of the skinks.


Honestly, I don't even know if this list would be any good. I'm guessing no. But it'd still be cheesy as hell. It would probably even be cheesier if you cannibalized one of the eotg for another 22 temple guard, or maybe a couple fewer TG to make room for some magic items for the priests.

Badders
06-03-2009, 15:34
2000pts requires 3 core choices...

I like 4 Eotg all usingb burning alignment and doing 4d6 hits to yunits with in the 2d6" range of all 4 stegs. 33 skinks and 3 terradons

EndlessBug
06-03-2009, 15:51
Kroak is immune to misscasts, and it's 3 attempts at the 6" spell not 4 (6/2) Although you could try it 6 times on a 5+ but that's be risky.

His major bonus is that his power dice can be placed in the pool so he doesn't have to cast his big spell if he doesn't want to. I.E. in 3k+ you could take him and another slann, the other slann then has access to 10 power dice until Kroak wants those dice for himself. 10 power dice would allow you to cast every single spell in any lore you fancy. This also minimises the 'only knows one spell' weakness.

Also consider using the lore of heavens hero level character who knows all of the heavens spells, 8 power dice would mean he could try casting Thunderbolt, lightning and comet every phase.

Slann in temple guard aren't considered too broken but I'd say they are definately borderline cheese.

An EotG can be taken in any list, especially with 1 scroll and the diadem meaning you'll have 6 dispel dice and 1 scroll for magical defence plus the engines effects. However this does cost 440 points so you are paying for it.

IMO a slann works best as just maxed for casting, so just the knows whole lore and +1 PD/spell, also give him cupped hands and BSB and you're set (any additional points and you can give him up to 2 scrolls). That's 395 points (+50 for 2 scrolls) Then take 16 temple guard for 291, Gives you a 700 ish points unit which is an incredible anvil and some sick magical damage.

swarmofseals
06-03-2009, 18:25
2000pts requires 3 core choices...

I like 4 Eotg all usingb burning alignment and doing 4d6 hits to yunits with in the 2d6" range of all 4 stegs. 33 skinks and 3 terradons


Ohh, right. Well, throw in another unit of 10 skinks for 50 and pay for it by cutting back as much as necessary on magic levels/magic items for your characters. =P still super lame.