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Malorian
04-03-2009, 17:24
I know there are a few wizards that can be BSBs (vampire, Tz herald,...) but most armies only have the option of the combat hero to hold their armies banner.

Do you think they should change it so wizard heros can hold them too?

Is there some game balance issue I'm missing?

zak
04-03-2009, 17:29
The thing with both heralds and Vampires is that you don't lose your survivability. I think that there isn't an issue with game balance, but it isn't something I would like to do on my wizards (especially my Orc and Gobbo ones!!!)

Aurellis
04-03-2009, 17:32
Wizards have spells which can allow them to be pretty powerful without much need for magic items, so a BSB would make them extra effective without many disadvantages, where as Heroes need magic items to be pretty decent.

Avian
04-03-2009, 17:35
I guess the reason why generally only fighter characters can carry the BSB is that they want to give players an incentive to get their BSBs stuck in up close and personal. Otherwise you'd be wasting those combat stats you are paying for. This means that the effective cost of the BSB is quite a bit higher than the 25 pts suggest, since there is a real risk of losing the 100 VPs for a captured standard (or you could be wasting points by having him not fight).

A wizard, on the other hand, rarely has any combat stats, so you aren't losing anything by hanging back and just providing the re-roll. If you took a Goblin Shaman BSB, you'd probably keep him behind the lines somewhere and you'd get a re-roll of break tests quite cheaply and with little risk. With a Goblin Big Boss BSB I either have to risk him getting splatted in combat, or waste those points and a Hero slot by hanging around behind the lines.

Agoz
04-03-2009, 17:38
Traditionally, wizards are usually frail and not very good leaders, not to mention that the battle standard bearer should probably be well liked by the army he's carrying the standard for, and with their strange powers, more superstitous soldiers might feel more inspired by a well known warrior leading them into battle, than some frail old man with a beard leaning on the battlestandard he's supposed to be waving.

Condottiere
04-03-2009, 17:42
I agree that a Wizard BSB would be a very good tactical move - you usualy want the units around him to stand their ground.

However, in fluffy terms it doesn't always fit, since usually the most courageous are given this honour, and they are usually found near the forefront, if not the midst of, the fighting.

W0lf
04-03-2009, 17:45
Call me crazy but i find the notion of a bsb wizard to be odd.

Leading an army, fine. Holding a flag, hella no :P

The Old Scholar
04-03-2009, 17:49
I always thought Warrior Priest should beable to be battle standard bearers, but I suppose it may conflict with their religious affiliations? Unless they made a banner of righteous, holy judgement or something. I don't know, but if you wanted to do a flagellant/zealot army it seemed to make sense...it wouldn't even have to be a flag, it could be something like the Sisters of Battle carry, like the bones of a saint or something...but I agree with Agoz, for a wizard to be the morale center of an army would require that army to be affiliated with magic on a deeper level than say the Empire is.

Malorian
04-03-2009, 17:50
Traditionally, wizards are usually frail and not very good leaders, not to mention that the battle standard bearer should probably be well liked by the army he's carrying the standard for, and with their strange powers, more superstitous soldiers might feel more inspired by a well known warrior leading them into battle, than some frail old man with a beard leaning on the battlestandard he's supposed to be waving.

And yet they can be your general...


Personally I think it would be an interesting option and would lead to more armies taking them.

teafloy_the_damned
04-03-2009, 18:00
Personally, i think the BSB should always be in the thick of it where the banner can do the most good.
Wouldn't particularly want my 300pt wizard stuck in combat where he cant cast many spells, much better to have him out in the open nukeing units from afar

Condottiere
04-03-2009, 18:12
I don't find it odd to have a wizard leading an army, they have their leadership penalized anyway in comparison to a combat character. He'd take a more backseat role.

I like the idea that the units around him could re-roll break tests - the BSB effect without actually being one.

Gorbad Ironclaw
04-03-2009, 20:11
Personally I think it would be an interesting option and would lead to more armies taking them.


Of course it would as it's like having your cake and eating it too. As others have said at 25 points it suddenly become a complete nobrainer to have a BSB if it's the fragile wizard who will be hiding behind the army anyway.

Also, we really don't need to give an all magic army rerolls in addition to the magic power it already have.

Disciple of Caliban
04-03-2009, 22:08
Of course it would as it's like having your cake and eating it too. As others have said at 25 points it suddenly become a complete nobrainer to have a BSB if it's the fragile wizard who will be hiding behind the army anyway.

Also, we really don't need to give an all magic army rerolls in addition to the magic power it already have.
Personally i dont really like the idea, for reasons mentioned above.

I do think it could have one positive effect though, people bringing mages along that are there for something other than just dispel scrolls! :)

fracas
04-03-2009, 23:53
if you want a defensive wizard a wizard-BSB seems a great combo buy

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 02:14
as if wizards shouls be more powerful than they already are. :P
no to free-for-all wizard BSBs!

ChaosVC
05-03-2009, 03:00
Other than a few races like chaos and VC, most wizards are not up to the task. Would you give a 125pts banner that boost the fighting power of your unit to a wizard? But I guess its interesting and its good to have the option I suppose.

Genrazn
05-03-2009, 03:40
Well I think it would make BSB too effective combined with certain lores... Like Bears Anger Flaming Sword etc etc

It would allow the BSB to have combat stats with magical effect of banner. Where a combat one has to go magic items or magic banner.

Rydmend
05-03-2009, 03:45
Lizardmen slann gets to be a bsb and general. Considering he has a 4+ ward save (upgradable to 2+ ward against ranged attacks and/or regen and/or magic resist 3 and/or no mundane attacks) 5 wounds ,can take 100 points of magic items as well as a magic banner of any cost and he can be stuck into a unit of temple gaurd. The lizardmen have it pretty good.

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 06:55
they are the exception, though and not the rule. and yes, LM saurus/templeG tend to lose combat by 2-3 everyturn and NOT RUN!!
/endrant

Teri-Hxlac
05-03-2009, 08:07
I like the idea only in certain cases, like its been said, when survivability is easy, such as on a Slann, protected by a wall of Temple Guard

Hubman
05-03-2009, 08:42
I think this should remain a Lizardmen exclusive. Sure VC and DoC get ABSBīs that can use magic, but they can fight hard too! In fact, they are fighters first if you ask me. Slann require special rules exempting them from normal ABSB limitations but remain prime spellcasters.

Wizards are good enough without this rule. I can imagine the Lvl 1 scroll caddy ABSBīs running amok with this rule...

Normal ABSBīs have to choose between a hefty magic standard that will help the army perform or an assortment of items that will help themselves. Same would go for wizards of course, but by allowing wizards to become ABSBīs you are giving many armies a way to include a cheap but powerful re-rolling ability. Thatīs just not right in my opinion.

And like others already pointed out, wizard ABSBīs could more easily escape from combat while granting the bonus whereas a normal ABSB runs more risk of being slain.

The way ABSBīs and generals have existed within the core rules has not changed noticeably since 4th Edition - why change it now?

Kind regards,

Hubman

EndlessBug
05-03-2009, 09:24
Demons - heralds (casters mostly)
VC - Vampires (casters)
DE - Cauldron of blood (not a caster but does buff from range)
Lizardmen - Slann (Caster/General)

All of the new armies so far seem to have an alternative BSB to the pure combat BSB. Whether this will continue is anyones guess, but I doubt it.