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Forlorn
04-03-2009, 19:03
I've noticed a common reply to posters within these hallowed forum threads. I've really been wanting to ask do most of the posters on this forum actively game in Events and Tournaments?

I ask because there are so many answers/replies that always seem geared more toward competitive play than the casual gaming that I exclusively participate in. I only game with friends and have never played in a sanctioned event yet I see, time and time again, responses given to posters that assume the poster's question is answered with the assumption he/she is going to game or create an army/list to play competitively within a GW event.

That's it. Just wondering.

NealSmith
04-03-2009, 19:08
I would wager that most of the questions are asked in that context also. :)

I'm like you though and have never played a real competitive event. I've played some 1-on-1 games with the "group", but we do a lot of scenario games too. I'm debating whether to join the local "league", but I'm not sure I want to deal with the personalities. :)

Shangrila
04-03-2009, 19:08
I dunno, I have never been in any games other then those with my friends.I play games with dudes at the store and they usually join the gaming group resulting in them being friends.

I feel as though if i went to a tournament, not only would my fluffy lists get destroyed but i may have to resort to physical violence if someone talked to much.

SPYDER68
04-03-2009, 19:20
recently ive been playing in 2x Tourneys a month, but 1 of those is usually among friends of who actually shows up.

Bellygrub
04-03-2009, 19:23
I only ever game with friends. No tournies for me.

jfrazell
04-03-2009, 19:47
I'm just glad when I can find an opponent once a month...

The_Outsider
04-03-2009, 19:50
It is because warseer lacks the ability to see past what is considered a "tourney" list.

Just look at the chaos threads in the army list forum, most of the answers result in "take twin lash, ???, WIN!" - it is neither true or good advice.

The best advice to give soemone in relation to a list is to create synergy with the existing list, not to go for a "raw power" answer.

MasterDecoy
04-03-2009, 19:57
I play in a once a month tourny (1kpts) at my LGS, I made a lot of friends playing there and It taught me a lot about the rules.

However, most of the time I just play for kicks(we have a gaming day every sunday, however its not strictly 40k) and My brother and I play a bastard version of 40k (hevily, hevily house ruled) once a week.

SPYDER68
04-03-2009, 20:03
There is no need to group the "Tourney" players with the ones who will do anything to win..

I play with a list that i enjoy, and do my best to make it work, if i played chaos i would not do twin lash just to win, only if it was the army i wanted to play.

And at the same time i happen to play in tourney's....

If i give army advice its to help them make a better army, everyone knows that some units in 40k flat out suck in certain armies, or non beneficial.

Usually if somone asks for help with a list its because they are losing, or want input to make it better and/or get input of things and troubles youll run against with a list.

If somone came along and wanted to make a list with 20 pt gaunts and 1 synapse creature and asks for input.. most are going to tell him.. it wont work good, or at all... not due to raw powa! of the list, but due to... it doesnt work good at all...


Also... people say we play casual.. well. so did we here for a long long time and still do...

but at the same time with this we are competetive about it...

1st pick an army you like

2nd Choose what units you like.

3rd Make the units / army you choose woop ass.

njfed
04-03-2009, 20:04
For questions I always look to events/tournaments when I give my answers because I don't want someone to show up at one and find out the rule works differently. For local gamers, they can house rule stuff, but once non-locals get involved, everyone needs to be on the same page. Once problem I have is when some of the unofficial faqs make ruling that I know from personal experience are different from the way GW has ruled at grand tournaments. Even the Adapticon FAQ has some of these.

As for lists, I don't like the fact that so much of the advice is towards tournament lists. However, I also understand the need to keep players from wasting money on junk units...Chaos spawn, I'm looking at you. I would be really mad if I paid for an army I thought was fluffy and cool, but was totally unplayable.

Count de Monet
04-03-2009, 20:05
I've noticed a common reply to posters within these hallowed forum threads. I've really been wanting to ask do most of the posters on this forum actively game in Events and Tournaments?

I ask because there are so many answers/replies that always seem geared more toward competitive play than the casual gaming that I exclusively participate in. I only game with friends and have never played in a sanctioned event yet I see, time and time again, responses given to posters that assume the poster's question is answered with the assumption he/she is going to game or create an army/list to play competitively within a GW event.

That's it. Just wondering.

Examples that you think are assuming incorrectly?

I think in general that it's assumed based on the question and what's not said.

If someone posts up an army lists and just asks for suggestions, the responses are naturally going to focus on the list/effectiveness. If they post up an army list and specifically ask for something like "How can I make this Chaos list even more random" or "How would I get this army closer to the official UM 5th company?" then responses will be different.

If someone asks a bunch of strangers/casual acquaintances on a message board if something would be "OK", I generally take it to mean they WANT the opinion of strangers/casual acquaintances as that's the type of person whose reaction they're concerned about - random pick up games/tournament play. I don't take it as "how would my best buds react to this?", as the questioner should have a much better idea than we would.

Vesica
04-03-2009, 21:43
I've noticed a common reply to posters within these hallowed forum threads. I've really been wanting to ask do most of the posters on this forum actively game in Events and Tournaments?

I ask because there are so many answers/replies that always seem geared more toward competitive play than the casual gaming that I exclusively participate in. I only game with friends and have never played in a sanctioned event yet I see, time and time again, responses given to posters that assume the poster's question is answered with the assumption he/she is going to game or create an army/list to play competitively within a GW event.

That's it. Just wondering.

I think its mainly because chances are if you are asking questions about your army lists etc then you would be playing competitively.

This is the main reason why i always have a little paragraph at the top of my army lists stating that it is more of a fluff based force for friendly games.

Wargamejunkie
04-03-2009, 21:49
I try to play in as many tournaments as I can.

Then again I also try and get games in as often as I think I can anyway.

Occulto
04-03-2009, 22:08
I've found people don't base their answers around tournaments, as much as the worst case possible scenario.

Usually it's seems to be a stereotypical event where every player is a WAAC jerk and the TO is itching to veto the slightest thing above and beyond the basic rules. At this mythical event, every game will be against the hardest lists possible and you may as well not turn up unless you're prepared to follow suit.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - as a TO, it often pains me to read someone say: "well that wouldn't be allowed in a tournament" because usually it's something I would allow in my event.

The greatest myth about tournaments is that they're all the same, and that there's a magical ruleset that every TO must adhere to. For instance, (*gasp!*) some events allow non-Citadel figures. It happens and the GW Enforcers don't drag the TO kicking and screaming to some dungeon in the bowels of GW HQ.

the1stpip
04-03-2009, 22:26
As already stated, I answr questions in this way, because people are asking for advice.

Last week, I was lambasted for offering advice to a new Dark Eldar player. We all know that most of the units suck, and do you really want to waste your money on an unit of Hellions, to find they are not worthwhile?

I play depending on the situation. To my club nights, I normally take a balanced list, that can take on all comers (or thats the idea). To tournaments, I will fine tune that list. I too don't believe in taking twin lashes or other such nonsense, but I do have an unit of nob bikers in my Ork army, but they are a mech army, and they are effective.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
04-03-2009, 22:55
It is because warseer lacks the ability to see past what is considered a "tourney" list.

Just look at the chaos threads in the army list forum, most of the answers result in "take twin lash, ???, WIN!" - it is neither true or good advice.

The best advice to give soemone in relation to a list is to create synergy with the existing list, not to go for a "raw power" answer.

Ah, spoken like a true Magic player... Your Watchwolf may be an objectively more powerful card than my Ironclaw Orcs, but in the right deck, the Orcs are a superstar.

The_Outsider
04-03-2009, 22:59
Ah, spoken like a true Magic player... Your Watchwolf may be an objectively more powerful card than my Ironclaw Orcs, but in the right deck, the Orcs are a superstar.

Best bit? I've never played magic in my life.

Silverbullet5774
05-03-2009, 01:19
Ah, spoken like a true Magic player... Your Watchwolf may be an objectively more powerful card than my Ironclaw Orcs, but in the right deck, the Orcs are a superstar.

Wow, Ironclaw Orcs... thats oldschool. In a good way though, because back then MtG didn't suck horrendously.

MrGiggles
05-03-2009, 01:29
Realistically, a tournament type environment tends to pose more challenges in terms of rules (more folks with different interpretations of them) and social dynamics. You generally don't have to worry much on those things when you're gaming with friends. Friends will help you out and be constructive (hopefully your fellow players in a tourney will too) and you'll often glaze over a rules debate in order to move a game along.

While tourneys can be quite rewarding, they are also filled with people you don't know. Whether folks should be nervous of the social aspect is really irrelevant. Some people just are nervous of it and that's that. Likewise I'm a firm believer that most people want to put a good foot forward at a tourney. That means that questions of rules and etiquette become more important. It's definitely more true for some tourneys than others, but that's that regardless.

Makiaveli
05-03-2009, 04:38
I would ask what other answer would be worth typing? I mean if you don't care about tournaments or what the average player you run into will say, then make up your own rules and don't bother asking. Otherwise, you want to know the "right" way to play, whether its with your buds or at a tourney.

Not meaning that to come across rude, so sorry if it sounds that way.

Occulto
05-03-2009, 04:53
I would ask what other answer would be worth typing? I mean if you don't care about tournaments or what the average player you run into will say, then make up your own rules and don't bother asking.

Sounds like you're saying: "unless it's tournament related, you're on your own."

If someone is making up their own rules, why shouldn't they seek out the advice of others?

Makiaveli
05-03-2009, 05:00
Ok I see what you are saying but that wasn't what I meant. I meant it more like why wouldn't you answer a question as if it was tourney related?

Point being, if you don't care about pickup games, or would it be allowed at a tourney, then you can just make up your own house rules. If instead, you are the guy from your group that is asking for outside opinions on some house rules you are making up so as to learn from others mistakes, then you would state so up front, and thus (hopefully) get answers geared to that.

Hmmm, that did come across as "Don't bother me" more than "don't waste your time asking, just go have fun" didn't it? Ok, I'm officially too tired to post coherently, so I will go away now.

Corrode
05-03-2009, 09:22
Sounds like you're saying: "unless it's tournament related, you're on your own."

If someone is making up their own rules, why shouldn't they seek out the advice of others?

I think the point being made is that if someone is making up their own rules with their group they're most likely to either just do whatever their group feels best (in which case they don't need to post, because they've sorted themselves) or they'd post something like 'I'm using this for our house ruled version where you can still sweep into CC and do x and y' (in which case they wouldn't get "legal at tournament" replies anyway).

If it's just a generic 'hi here's my Chaos list how do I make it better' then it's assumed that a player wants to make it more competitive - whether for tournament play or just WAAC local games. Either way, the worst thing that people can do is not make themselves clear.

Doppleskanger
05-03-2009, 09:54
Well, I think it's just common knowledge that there are 2 very different types of 40k, casual club/friendly games, and the tournement thing. In the first anything goes, in the other rules are by necessity stricter, and lists will inevitably be very competitive, often at the expense of fluff or sometimes even fun.
When someone asks a queation here they normally get two answers which cover both eventualities. So an answer like

this unit you asked about is ace because blah blah, but wouldn't necessarily be good in a tournemant setting

or

you're modelling or count as army idea sounds really cool, so definitely do it, just be warned you may run into bother at tournies..

don't imply warseer is full of exclusively tourney players, just that the two different styles of 40k are widely acknowledged.

Forlorn
05-03-2009, 13:51
Examples that you think are assuming incorrectly?

I think in general that it's assumed based on the question and what's not said.

If someone posts up an army lists and just asks for suggestions, the responses are naturally going to focus on the list/effectiveness. If they post up an army list and specifically ask for something like "How can I make this Chaos list even more random" or "How would I get this army closer to the official UM 5th company?" then responses will be different.

If someone asks a bunch of strangers/casual acquaintances on a message board if something would be "OK", I generally take it to mean they WANT the opinion of strangers/casual acquaintances as that's the type of person whose reaction they're concerned about - random pick up games/tournament play. I don't take it as "how would my best buds react to this?", as the questioner should have a much better idea than we would.

I see your point. I guess it also requires the poster to ask very specific questions regarding his/her post. Gerneralized questions could be interpreted liberally as well and therefore miss the mark.

As an example I've seen a poster toss a list up and ask what people think and get a reply of "drop this, add this, take 4 of those out, no need for that etc and it misses IMO what the poster needs or wants. :eyebrows:

Occulto
05-03-2009, 22:23
I think the point being made is that if someone is making up their own rules with their group they're most likely to either just do whatever their group feels best (in which case they don't need to post, because they've sorted themselves) or they'd post something like 'I'm using this for our house ruled version where you can still sweep into CC and do x and y' (in which case they wouldn't get "legal at tournament" replies anyway).

If it's just a generic 'hi here's my Chaos list how do I make it better' then it's assumed that a player wants to make it more competitive - whether for tournament play or just WAAC local games. Either way, the worst thing that people can do is not make themselves clear.

I see what you're saying.

I still think it's rather interesting that unless you specifically say: "this is not for tournaments," there are people will automatically assume it is. To me that'd be like asking on an auto forum how to fix my car, and being given a bunch of advice purely geared (pardon the pun) around the assumption I only use my car for racing. :p

My personal bugbear, is seeing someone post a list and because there's such a focus on tournaments the responses assume theme is an optional extra and the player has access to an unlimited amount of models.

I've seen a Saim-hann player get told to drop all his jetbikes and take dire avengers instead because it's more competitive. :wtf:

It's possible to offer suggestions how to improve a list without it resulting in the person completely changing their army.

Lord Inquisitor
05-03-2009, 22:50
I still think it's rather interesting that unless you specifically say: "this is not for tournaments," there are people will automatically assume it is. To me that'd be like asking on an auto forum how to fix my car, and being given a bunch of advice purely geared (pardon the pun) around the assumption I only use my car for racing. :p
Well, you are always going to be using your army in competition against another army. It's more like trying to give stunt drivers formula one advice - speed is not the only criteria, there's such a thing as looking stylish.

I know what you mean, though. I run an Emperor's Children army - nothing in my army that isn't hot pink! - so I am necessarily excluding some of the more 'competitive' units in the Chaos army such as Plague Marines. I almost exclusively play tournaments these days, and it can be hard keeping true to the theme of the army. 6-strong units are fluffy, but Kill Points are crucifying me. One of the many reasons I hate Kill Points because they straightjacket army design.

Check out this thread (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186810)for a rough idea of the tournament demographics of Warseer, (which is likely pro-tournament biased in full responses). Nevertheless I think there's a reasonable range of players on the forum. It very much depends on what people say - if you say you've a fluffy deathguard army and you have a Lash prince, you are liable to get as much of a kick-back from "fluff" orientated players than the tournie crowd jump on competitive lists.

Forlorn
06-03-2009, 19:34
I would ask what other answer would be worth typing? I mean if you don't care about tournaments or what the average player you run into will say, then make up your own rules and don't bother asking. Otherwise, you want to know the "right" way to play, whether its with your buds or at a tourney.

Not meaning that to come across rude, so sorry if it sounds that way.

I think perhaps my point has become confused. A poster asks about his/her list and gets reply after reply about tweaking the army into a power list. I don't see many replies that say "go with what you like. Or units you find interesting." It was something I noticed and wondered if most poster and responses were from gamers playing in tournies and not so much the casual gamer like me. It had nothing to do with "the right way" to play or "make up your own rules" it was simply an observation. That was all.

And you were coming across rude. ;)

Cry of the Wind
06-03-2009, 22:03
I don't see many replies that say "go with what you like. Or units you find interesting."

Well to be honest the reason you won't see many posts like that is because those comments aren't very useful. Really if I come asking a question about a unit or my army comp and all you tell me is to pick the unit that I like, well thanks but I don't need you to tell me that. I need you to tell me if the unit I like is going to fit the army I'm making and if not how I could change it to fit.

People who ask question about themes or 'causual' lists will generally state so in their opening post. They do this because asking for help implies making a stronger list, otherwise why ask the question?

Makiaveli
06-03-2009, 22:38
I think perhaps my point has become confused. A poster asks about his/her list and gets reply after reply about tweaking the army into a power list. I don't see many replies that say "go with what you like. Or units you find interesting." It was something I noticed and wondered if most poster and responses were from gamers playing in tournies and not so much the casual gamer like me. It had nothing to do with "the right way" to play or "make up your own rules" it was simply an observation. That was all.

And you were coming across rude. ;)


I see what you mean. And thread hijacking is an art form some places I hang out ;)

As to the 2nd part, thanks for being not being rude about me being rude. :)