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View Full Version : Terradons, charge + drop rocks?



Jericho
04-03-2009, 20:35
Quick question, but is my reading of the Drop Rocks rule correct? The Terradons declare a charge, and move as normal during the "move chargers" part of the phase. Then, in the "remaining moves" part of the phase they may drop rocks onto a unit that they flew over during their earlier charge move.

I can't see anything that would indicate that they may not do both. Obviously they can't drop rocks on the unit that they are charging! Correct me if I'm wrong, please :)

Veloxnex
04-03-2009, 21:31
The wording in the description is going to cause people to say Yea and Nay.

i'v no doubt there's arguments for both. From a logical point of view doing it sounds fine but this is warhammer....

Neckutter
04-03-2009, 21:34
short answer: maybe
long answer: move charges happens at a different time, than the ability to drop rocks. move charges/remaining moves. id have to actually read the passage in the LM book about "dropping rocks". as a final answer, id probably say 4+ it.

stripsteak
04-03-2009, 21:54
i believe technically you can do that. the rule say that during the remaining moves segment of the movement phase, you may drop rocks on any unit that you have flown over that phase. there is no limitation on what part of the phase the flying over has to be done in.

Spirit
04-03-2009, 23:38
If the move charges phase is before the remaining moves phase, then i can't see any way to say no to dropping rocks on a unit you have charged over.

Malus Darksoul
04-03-2009, 23:42
Since they are flying skirmishers what if they fly over a different unit to get to the one they are charging ???? could then they drop rocks over a different unit ??

Spirit
04-03-2009, 23:55
Since they are flying skirmishers what if they fly over a different unit to get to the one they are charging ???? could then they drop rocks over a different unit ??

Thats what is being asked. They cannot drop rocks on the unit they charge, because they have not flown over them yet.

The question was IF they fly over unit A while charging unit B, can they drop rocks on unit A? If that makes any more sense.

Jericho
05-03-2009, 00:09
Good to hear my interpretation makes sense at the moment. They still can't do much on turn 1, but watch out turn 2 could be deadly :evilgrin:

Spirit
05-03-2009, 00:15
Good to hear my interpretation makes sense at the moment. They still can't do much on turn 1, but watch out turn 2 could be deadly :evilgrin:

Line them up for a charged warmachine and 4d3 S4 hits on that lightly armored archer unit.

lol.

I still think my greatest achievement with them will killing an alter kindred, that was funny.

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 00:52
after reading the drop rocks in more detail, i believe you CAN drop rocks. it says the hits happen during the remaining moves, but it doesnt say that you must have moved over the unit during the remaining movement phase.

woodulikeanother
05-03-2009, 02:25
i would say no because they would have been too occupied charging to drop rocks on another unit, but everyone will have their own opinion i guess

Axis
05-03-2009, 05:14
Just for those wanting to charge over things don't forget that terradons don't have the same LoS bonuses that most fliers have (because most fliers are large targets). So it is actually quite hard to charge over a unit unless it (or you) is on a hill or you can see part of the unit or something.

To the OP. I would recommend clearing it with your opponent before the game. There are arguments both sides of the fence.

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 05:40
well if even ONE of the unit flies over a unit, appearantly ALL of the unit counts as "dropping" rocks. during a charge fliers are permitted to fly over other units, so all you need is for one terradon to have LOS to an enemy, and if part of the unit flies over another enemy unit, they drop rocks.



where "E" is the unit being charged, and "e" is the unit being "flown over" and "TT" being one terradon. disregard the "_" because they are just place holders.

EEEEE


_____eeeee

TT__TT__TT

you can see that at least one of the terradons will fly over unit "e" and thusly will be able to drop rocks.

Axis
05-03-2009, 07:56
I know that. I was just making sure people don't make the same mistake i see a lot of people make which is to assume fliers have extra LoS.

Desert Rain
05-03-2009, 14:39
The rules say that you may drop rocks on a unit during your remaining movements if you have flown over it during the movement phase. If you charge unit A and move over unit B during your charge move I would say that you can drop rocks on them.

apbevan
05-03-2009, 15:02
I agree that it reads as being able to drops rocks after declaring a charge.

If the unit they are charging is on a hill or the Terradons start on a hill they can see over units to charge.

Spirit
05-03-2009, 15:23
The wording is ambiguous.

It says: "during the remaining moves SEGMENT (segment is important) of the movement phase, terradons may drop rocks on a unit they have moved over during THAT PHASE" (second important part)

You can either:

A: Read "that phase" as the "remaining moves phase", thus meaning you must move over the unit during normal movement to drop rocks and not during a charge.

or

B: You can read "that phase" as "the movement phase", because it says segment when talking about remaining moves. Thus you can claim that as long as ou move over a unit during any part of the move, charging or not, you may drop rocks.

Yay for GW wording as per usual.

garythewargamer
05-03-2009, 15:34
A question to take to the so called experts.

This is just a thought. Does not the charges move first in the movement segment and end there? With this logic, that is crazy to say with GW, they do not have a remaining move segment. Call me crazy.

EvC
05-03-2009, 16:47
The wording is ambiguous.

It says: "during the remaining moves SEGMENT (segment is important) of the movement phase, terradons may drop rocks on a unit they have moved over during THAT PHASE" (second important part)

You can either:

A: Read "that phase" as the "remaining moves phase", thus meaning you must move over the unit during normal movement to drop rocks and not during a charge.

or

B: You can read "that phase" as "the movement phase", because it says segment when talking about remaining moves. Thus you can claim that as long as ou move over a unit during any part of the move, charging or not, you may drop rocks.

Yay for GW wording as per usual.

If you read it as A, then you are reading it wrong. B is the correct reading. Whether A or B is the intent is another matter altogether.

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2009, 17:01
Yep B seems correct to me too and not unreasonable as far as I'm concerned, we've got no reason to doubt that this is what the designer intended. They're unlikely to errata it even if it wasn't the intent as the rule still makes sense.

Spirit
05-03-2009, 18:51
If you read it as A, then you are reading it wrong. B is the correct reading. Whether A or B is the intent is another matter altogether.


Why do you say this? Dont get me wrong i want it to be B, but i dont see how you get this conclusively.

stripsteak
05-03-2009, 19:45
Why do you say this? Dont get me wrong i want it to be B, but i dont see how you get this conclusively.


A: Read "that phase" as the "remaining moves phase", thus meaning you must move over the unit during normal movement to drop rocks and not during a charge.

because there is no such thing as the remaining moves _phase_.

pg 10 lists all the phases of the game
- start of turn
- movement
- magic
- shooting
- combat

'remaining moves' is part of the movement phase.

EvC
05-03-2009, 22:58
Why do you say this? Dont get me wrong i want it to be B, but i dont see how you get this conclusively.

Because version A requires you to assume that the author meant something he didn't actually write. It's not A because it's not A. It doesn't get more conclusive than that :D

Asmodiseus
06-03-2009, 05:20
Ok so now is this possible?


XX____YYY____ZZZZ____AAAA


TT_TT_TT

So the Teradons want to charge X, so they fly over A, then Z, then Y, then come to rest in the front arc of X with maximum models in combat, then the lizardmen player states that units A,Y, and Z all have to take 3D3 strength 4 hits. Provided the Terradons have enough movement to reach X going this route of course.

garythewargamer
06-03-2009, 05:43
You move chargers and once that is completed you move to the next phase. The next phase is the remaining movement phase. Therefore they did not fly over any units during that phase. I am afraid that if the LM player tried to do that I would raise a stink. If that did not take care of it then I guess I would never play the guy again until I say something that said it was legal.

Red
06-03-2009, 06:19
The movement phase has 5 segments (all on page 11). Move chargers is the 4th segment. The 5th segment is the remaining moves. The terradons are not moved during the remaining moves segment, and therefore are may not drop rocks. I do not see how anyone is arguing that you may charge and drop rocks at the same time.

You can play with the words and say there is no actual "there is no remaining moves" PHASE, however whether or not it's an actual phase or not does not matter. Chargers are moved before the rest of remaining moves. If the terradons charge, they do not not move with the remaining movers, and may not drop rocks. It's all on page 11, where the movement phase is broken down into phases, segments, parts, whatever you want to call them.

nosferatu1001
06-03-2009, 07:16
Red et al - The movement phase (defined term used within the BRB consistently, so it does matter what it is called) is broken down into subphases or segments of the phase.

If you fly over a unit A while charging B, during the remaining moves subphase you can drop rock, as the rules for "drop rocks" onlly require that you have moved over a unit that phase - and phase, as has been stated, is defined as Movement (magic, shooting etc...) and nothing else in the BRB. If they had said "flown over during the Remaining movements segment / subphase" then you would be correct. As they didn't, you are not.

You can also see the reason why "drop rocks" occurs in the remaining moves subphase - if it was as you moved chargers, you could declare with Terradons first, drop rocks, then have another unit charge the now reduced unit. This way the terradons can't resolve the drop rocks until after combat is joined, meaning the target is no longer eligible.

To the poster who wanted their terradon to do a "loop" while charging - a) only one unit is affected (if memory serves) and b) flyers have to pivot then fly in a straight line in order to charge, so you cannot loop around a line, fly along, loop out front again and land.

Asmodiseus
06-03-2009, 07:33
Well it can be wordsmithed to argue that they may drop multiple rocks, but I think most of us can safely assume it may only drop one.

Also it might be of benifit to read the rules on screamers nosferatu, GW specifically refers to the remaining moves phase as a phase unto itself and sets a pretty decent precedent on how units like this should be handled.

Spirit
06-03-2009, 08:05
Well it can be wordsmithed to argue that they may drop multiple rocks, but I think most of us can safely assume it may only drop one.

Also it might be of benifit to read the rules on screamers nosferatu, GW specifically refers to the remaining moves phase as a phase unto itself and sets a pretty decent precedent on how units like this should be handled.

Ah, this is interesting, what are their rules? I don't have that book..

Asmodiseus
06-03-2009, 10:08
"If a unit of screamers moves over an unengaged enemy unit in the Remaining Move phase, that enemy unit suffers an automatic S5 hit per screamer..."

Gazak Blacktoof
06-03-2009, 10:30
Skip to the underlined section if you don't want to read my ramblings.

Neither the terradon or screamer rule is wrong and yes the BRB does use the term "phase" to describe the remaining moves portion of the movement phase. At the top of p.18 its referred to as a "sub-phase" which could easily be shortened to "phase".

Its possible that they meant to duplicate the screamer rules and instead wrote something else, it would have been simpler if they had used cut+paste, instead of tying to re-invent the wheel, if this was their intent. The difference in wording could easily lead us to assume they meant that option 'B' is the correct interpretation.

Although the rules as written appear to indicate that 'B' is still the correct option we can easily assume they meant something else because it its a little odd that they would be dropping rocks after they've moved over a unit rather than whilst they move over it.

Having thought about this problem further my preference would be for option 'A'; largely due to the timing but also in part due to the existing screamer rules and that GW does use the word "phase" to describe setions of a "real phase".

Discuss it with your opponent or roll a die, I can't say I'd be especially concerned either way my opponent chose to play it.

Kroxigore
06-03-2009, 11:29
I only have the German version of the book, but its wording is very obviously interpretation B. It says, that you may drop rocks at a unit, that the teradons flew over in this MOVEMENT PHASE.
It could be a wrong translation, but I rather think, that it is, what GW indended.

Concerning GW using the term phase for the subphases: GW sometimes uses somewhat unprecise wordings, especially when they expect, that it does not have an effect on the rule, that they are currently describing. Crosslinking between wordings of the DoC and the Lizardmen book seems a bit dodgy to me.

nosferatu1001
06-03-2009, 12:51
"If a unit of screamers moves over an unengaged enemy unit in the Remaining Move phase, that enemy unit suffers an automatic S5 hit per screamer..."

Screamers do not generate a precedent, as they have a sepcific requirement - that they move over a unit in the remaining moves (sub)phase. This naturally excludes charging, as this is done in the move chargers (sub)phase.

Terradons "drop rocks" simply requires that you have moved over a unit in that phase - and without any specific wording otherwise, "phase" must default to the BRB definition of "phase" which is the entire Movement section.

EvC
06-03-2009, 13:35
...and really, does it sound that bad that while on the way to charging one unit, that the Terradons might release their load of rocks on a separate target?

nosferatu1001
06-03-2009, 13:50
It doesnt sound so bad to me - unlike the screamers they aren't passing through the units to generate the hits, theyre just dropping rocks froma height. Which can be done while charging in, im sure!