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Spirit
04-03-2009, 23:24
Is a stubborn unit affected by items that place a negative on to your Ld value? (such as the vampire special power or the doom and darkness spell)

I originally thought yes, but after reading the rules for stubborn am swayed slightly to saying no.


"During a break test, stubborn units use the LD value on their profile. They always ignore break test modifiers, regardless of how much they lost the combat by. This means, for example, that stubborn troops with a Ld of 8 will only ever break on the roll of a 9 or more when making a break test"

The rules do not say they ONLY ignore break test modifiers, simply that they DO ignore them. So do they ignore everything else aswell?

Malus Darksoul
04-03-2009, 23:46
you bring up a good question!! I got hit by the Masque of Slannesh and some damn banner that reduced my leadership by 2... which meant my unit of Executioners were stubborn on a 4..... well maybe thats referring to how much u lose combat by not not how much your leadership is... Well thank god i rolled a 4 so i didnt break anyways but Id love to see all the posts on this one

Spirit
04-03-2009, 23:53
I can see a potential argument being that stubborn only affects break tests, not panic or terror tests. This fact will make it very irregular indeed.

Not that this fact affects me, all my stuborn units are immune to psychology. xD

woodulikeanother
05-03-2009, 01:58
after reading the rules on stubborn, i interpret it as they only are stubborn from breaking in combat as it says so, so any other modifier of this, such as the VC aura of dark majesty for ex. they would have -1 to their LD but no other Combat resolution, overkill and such would affect them, also if they take a fear or terror test and are within a vamp with that aura they will still suffer -1, but this is just how i see it working, it sounds like thats how it would work in my opinion. it pretty clearly states that stubborn is for Break tests Only,not panic

Lord Dan
05-03-2009, 04:42
I don't see how it could be interpreted as being used for panic and terror checks. Where else in the book are these referred to specifically as "break tests"?

FredNo.1
05-03-2009, 05:28
any breaktest taken is taken on the unmodified ld, any other ld test can be modified as normal.

Asmodiseus
05-03-2009, 05:34
The items in question reduce your leadership profile. Once you take a breaktest you use the unmodified leadership value on your profile, if a vamp is there with AoDM your profile goes down by 1 then you take your break test ignoring all CR modifiers.

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 05:42
during break tests, stubborn units use their unmodified leadership. no plusses, no minues from any source.

nosferatu1001
05-03-2009, 07:30
If the item states your profile is reduced, then stubborn does not help you. The example is a "ld of 8" - if that "ld of 8" has been reduced to "ld 6" through external means outside of the break test, then you take the test on a 6.

You immunity is to break test modifiers i.e. combat res. A leadership reduction is not a breaktest modifier.

havoc626
05-03-2009, 07:50
Just to point out, a stubborn unit will auto-break against outnumbering, fear causing enemies, (unless double 1 is rolled) as Stubborn affects the Ld modifiers. As outnumbering and causing fear is not modifiying, stubborn has no affect. I don't think that the other posters were implying this, but I just wanted to clarify for new players reading this, in case they got confused.

I'd agree with most people here in that the Ld modifer will affect stubborn units, as there is nothing that says against this in the rules. At the time of the break test, your Ld is x less than it would normally be.

Neckutter
05-03-2009, 08:50
"during a break test, stubborn units use the leadership value on their profile"
i see where it says you are immune to break test modifiers, but i dont think that making a unit -2 leadership changes their profile's leadership value. hence, my greatswords are Ld8. you make me Ld6, but i lose combat. i test on 8 leadership, because the BRB says that i only ever fail a break test on a roll of 9 or above.

EDIT: with the caveat, that the greatswords are not outnumbered by fear causers.

Asmodiseus
05-03-2009, 09:06
No the leadership on your profile is 6 at the time you take the test.

The aura states that any unit within 6" get a -1 penalty to their leadership.

So before you even get into combat your leadership 8 greatswords are now leadership 7, leadership 8 isnt even on their profile anymore until the aura stops effecting them.

So now they lose combat and they outnumber the undead unit so they use their unmodified leadership value of 7.

nosferatu1001
05-03-2009, 10:02
Agreed - your leadship is changed; what else can that be but the value on your profile?

The BRB does not state you will only ever break on a 9, it states that ld8 stubborn only break on a 9. You are ld7 at the time of the test, so you will now break on an 8. You're reading more into the sentence than it is stating.

TroyJPerez
05-03-2009, 10:38
Come on are you really trying to argue with the rule book that says Stubborn units always make break tests using the leadership on their profile? How concrete is that. It never says stubborn units always make break tests using their current leadership value. It specifially says they use the leadership on their profile. So unless you have a power that can changed an army books leadership value and not just a units leadership value it will not work during breaktests.

Although it would be a funny item. Talisman: 50 points "White out and Ink" You may alter a single stat in any army book down 1 to a minimum of 1 before the battle starts. LOL how hilarous would that be, lol.

Spirit
05-03-2009, 11:01
Well this really comes down to.

"Does a -Ld item change your profile or is your profile always the same?"


Come on are you really trying to argue with the rule book that says Stubborn units always make break tests using the leadership on their profile? How concrete is that. It never says stubborn units always make break tests using their current leadership value. It specifially says they use the leadership on their profile. So unless you have a power that can changed an army books leadership value and not just a units leadership value it will not work during breaktests.

Although it would be a funny item. Talisman: 50 points "White out and Ink" You may alter a single stat in any army book down 1 to a minimum of 1 before the battle starts. LOL how hilarous would that be, lol.

Although i wouldnt put it quite like this, this is how i see it. Your profile is whats in the book, and never gets changed.

Shamfrit
05-03-2009, 11:16
I'm sorry to say spirit, a modifier alters the core stat related to X spell or Y. In this instance, Doom and Darkness would reduce a unit of Greatswords to a basic Leadership value of 5. Whilst under the effect of the spell, they are LD5, and thus, become Stubborn on LD5, since their Leadership based test (also a breaktest) comes up.

The vampire ability Aura of Dark Majesty does the same, if they take a break test near a Vampire with that ability, they will be testing on Stubborn 7 etc.

Stubborn is already too powerful, without looking for ways to make it worse. Doom and Darkness is a very powerful spell if played right, but most units will break under duress anyway - just make sure your Stubborn units are ITP and they'll be immune to it :p

The Great Icon of Despair/Masque combo on the other hand, is a perfect way to wipe out stubborn units.

TroyJPerez
05-03-2009, 11:22
Most stubborn things are easy to kill. With the acception of temple guard who are immune to psycology most of the time. If you really wanna try and cheese weak things like slayers, and empire greatswordsmen by saying you alter their base profile stat, its pretty lame. Think of it this way Doom and Darkness gifves a unit -3 leadership. Their leadership is still whatever it is, it just has a modifier. It does not changed their core stat.

narrativium
05-03-2009, 11:49
Well this really comes down to.

"Does a -Ld item change your profile or is your profile always the same?"

Although i wouldnt put it quite like this, this is how i see it. Your profile is whats in the book, and never gets changed. Let's take a strange example, then. Chaos Daemons vs. Skaven. A Screaming Bell has enough Clanrats (Ld5) for two qualifying ranks (and therefore, +2 Ld bonus due to Skaven Strength in Numbers) is in combat with the Masque. The Bell has rolled its stubborn result in the preceding Skaven shooting phase and the Masque has used its Eternal Dance to knock the Skaven Ld down by -1. The Skaven lose the combat.

Stubborn means we ignore the combat modifiers, so it doesn't matter what we lost by. The current Skaven Ld value would be 6, taking into account both the positive modifier of ranks and the negative modifier of the Masque, but the profile value is 5.

We roll a 6 for our Break Test. I think the Skaven passed. You think that because the unit was stubborn, they failed. Which is it?

Braad
05-03-2009, 11:50
The stats profile you got can change. Sometimes permanently, sometimes temporarily. If you loose wounds, the wound stat gets reduced permanently (except maybe with healing abilities/spells). The leadership stat is reduced by 2, due to the spell or ability, however only temporarily.
The profile given in the book is only the basic starting profile. For example the item Bigged's Kickin' Boots specifically says: +1 attack in his profile. So, the profiles are not set in stone, and spells/items/whatever that say 'reduce/increase stat by ... points' actually change the profile during the game.

So, in this case, when you have to do the stubborn leadership test, you fail on 7 or higher with a reduced leadership of 6, as that is currently your profile.

eagletsi1
05-03-2009, 12:22
Man I really opened up a can of worms when I posted my Skull Mantel caused a stubborn unit of Black Guard to break at -1 leadership.

As for the rules it's obvious, yes stubborn units test on their leadership stat. So if that stat is at minus one then then stubborn units would test at minus 1.

It's simple really,

I did that this weekend in a game. I overran into a treeman ancient LD9 I had the skull mantel and won combat he tested on a stubborn 8 and broke.

Sorry, but it's quite obvious that's what it does.

eagletsi

Necromancy Black
05-03-2009, 12:59
Stubborn says they ignore breaktest modifiers and the leadership on their profile. Other changes are not covered so they will take affect.

Basically the rule will prevent the following from affecting leadership: 1) anything that changes the leadership stat on their profile b) break test modifiers.

IMO, things that say "you are at -x leadership" change the stat so are ignored under the stubborn rule. Things that say "take a leadership test a -x" change teh value compaired to the dice roll, not the actual stat, and thus will affect the leadership for break tests.

EvC
05-03-2009, 13:38
Glad to see the majority are going for the "makes sense" solution. Remember, a profile is just a collection of stats. If one of a particular unit's stats is changed, then its profile is modified as well- even though you may not physically be crossing out the value in the rulebook ;)

eagletsi1
05-03-2009, 13:44
Most people don't care. It's just the one's that are shocked when they find out you have the item. I always tell them before their roll for Stubborn, that way it's not such a shock. Plus I have a model converted with a Skull Mantel on his chest, so it's pretty obvious which models has it.

Sarah S
05-03-2009, 14:03
Glad to see the majority are going for the "makes sense" solution. Remember, a profile is just a collection of stats. If one of a particular unit's stats is changed, then its profile is modified as well- even though you may not physically be crossing out the value in the rulebook ;)

Dead on! Good job!

nosferatu1001
05-03-2009, 14:13
Stubborn says they ignore breaktest modifiers and the leadership on their profile. Other changes are not covered so they will take affect.

While it says they use the leadership on their profile, nothing in the rule prevents the profile from being changes.

D&D alters your leadership stat and therefore your profile by -3. If you were stubborn leadership 8 you are now stubborn leadership 5

TroyPerez - slayers don't care, theyre Unbreakable ;)

ZigZagMan
05-03-2009, 14:16
Exactly, if an item or spell alters your toughness, and then you take a toughness test, do you use the original value? No of course not

neXus6
05-03-2009, 20:03
Yah when me and Smith started having this discussion the other night it wasn't an argument, just kinda us looking at ways people COULD read the rule.
Seems we've got a few of the views we came up with here. :D

As much as we would all like everyone to use the "common sense" version every time there are usually a couple of out their views that show up.

MalusCalibur
05-03-2009, 20:43
Not a lot to say that hasn't already been, but I'd like to throw my hat into the 'profile figures can be changed' ring. For example, casting Doom and Darkness on a Stubborn unit means they will take break tests at -3 Ld.


MalusCalibur

WLBjork
06-03-2009, 07:30
The wording of the answer for Killing Blow in the second Q&A for the BRB suggests that the profile value is not changed.


i.e., it refers to a character with 3W on the profile who has lost 1W.

Atrahasis
06-03-2009, 07:42
Using FAQ answers outside their narrow scope is always a bad idea - IIRC the basic mechanic for models dying requires the number of Wounds on their profile to be reduced to 0. If you argue that losing a wound isn't losing a wound from the profile, then models are now immortal.

It's better to assume they meant "3w on its starting profile", an established term, than to assume it has implications for an immutable profile.

Reading the section titled "Profiles" in the BRB, it says that the profile lists a specific model's characteristic values. Values change. Army books specify a starting point for each model's profile, but the profile can change in the course of the game.

Masque
06-03-2009, 22:28
In this instance, Doom and Darkness would reduce a unit of Greatswords to a basic Leadership value of 5. Whilst under the effect of the spell, they are LD5, and thus, become Stubborn on LD5, since their Leadership based test (also a breaktest) comes up.


D&D alters your leadership stat and therefore your profile by -3. If you were stubborn leadership 8 you are now stubborn leadership 5


For example, casting Doom and Darkness on a Stubborn unit means they will take break tests at -3 Ld.

Doom and Darkness does NOT modify a unit's Leadership. It is a modifier to the test itself. Since Stubborn units always make unmodified break tests they are not affected by D&D during break tests.

Deacon Bane
06-03-2009, 22:48
Stubborn units, "ignore Break test modifiers, regardless of how much they lost the combat by." Only CR factors are Break test modifiers, I think. D&D is not a Break test modifier.

Asmodiseus
06-03-2009, 23:17
Of course you forgot to add the sentence after that

"Stubborn troops with a leadership value of 8 will only ever break on a roll of 9"

So Greatswords with leadership 8 have D&D on them, they fail combat, take their break test and roll a 7. Woohoo they stay as they only ever fail on a 9

same Greatswords now have a vampire with aura near them, they are now leadership 7 and only every break on a roll of 8

WLBjork
07-03-2009, 04:54
Using FAQ answers outside their narrow scope is always a bad idea

Hence the reason I specifically used the word "suggested".


IIRC the basic mechanic for models dying requires the number of Wounds on their profile to be reduced to 0

Only if they've changed it from the original. My book required models to have S, T or W reduced to 0 - the word profile is certainly not used.


Reading the section titled "Profiles" in the BRB, it says that the profile lists a specific model's characteristic values. Values change. Army books specify a starting point for each model's profile, but the profile can change in the course of the game.

The rules say that characteristics may be reduced, yet it doesnt state that the profile is affected.

Splitting hairs, and realy silly when I look at it, meaning it would probably get a really sarcastic answer if submitted for a Q&A.

knightime98
07-03-2009, 07:45
My leadership value can change to the leadership of the General's then.. Great, so now all Stubborn troops are now stubborn on the General's ld..

Yeah, crazy.. you can go both ways.. I know there is a provision prohibiting this.. but the logic that is being used is the same to lower the stubborn value.

Stubborn is stubborn is stubborn.. period..

That's my story and I'm sticking to it..

marv335
07-03-2009, 09:59
Of course you forgot to add the sentence after that

"Stubborn troops with a leadership value of 8 will only ever break on a roll of 9"

So Greatswords with leadership 8 have D&D on them, they fail combat, take their break test and roll a 7. Woohoo they stay as they only ever fail on a 9


Taking that arguement to the extreme would mean that strictly speaking according to the faq, Greatswords would pass the test on a 10,11, or 12.
Because they only fail on a 9.
:D

Neckutter
07-03-2009, 10:11
Taking that arguement to the extreme would mean that strictly speaking according to the faq, Greatswords would pass the test on a 10,11, or 12.
Because they only fail on a 9.
:D

you, sir, are an amazing creature. :)

its RAW on steroids!

EDIT: woot for the 1337 post!

Lugburz
07-03-2009, 11:43
Wow, so my screaming bell would make my clanrats stubborn on leadership 6, rather than having an leadership of 9? Niiiiice :p.

Actually i find this discussion rather silly. No wonder why the FAQ's come so rarely when GW have 6000 stupid questions gold digging RAW questions.
If this trend continues, GW will stop making FAQ's, and add a errata to the BRB. "When you find a loophole in the rules, fight with your friends until you decide how you want to play the game".

Once again I refer to the Berserker Sword "gain one extra attack for each model in base contact", well it doesent say in contact with the bearer, and almost every model in the board is in base contact with something, so that makes the lord get +100 attacks at least.

And trust me, even with 100 people reading the books before publising, there will ALWAYS be loopholes.

So my point of view on this case is that negative Ld spells and items modify the Ld on the models profile (without magically rubbing it away). And therefore stubborn units test on the Ld on their profile. that is now modified.

Bran Dawri
07-03-2009, 15:13
Just to convolute the issue:

Unlike the aforementioned Bigged's Kickin' Boots, neither D&D nor the vampiric aura specifically state they alter the profile. Both mention giving a penalty, which AFAIK isn't the same.
So, there is a precedent for changing a unit's profile - and it's specifically so mentioned. Going by that pecedent I would be inclined to say that anything that doesn't specifically mention altering the profile doesn't, in fact, alter the profile.

RAW, I'm actually inclined to say that these don't affect a stubborn unit's breaktest (but they do affect every other test they have to take).

Then again, RAW tends to get pretty silly. I might try to pull this off if I'm somehow paired off against a horrible ruleslawyer in a tourney, but not in a friendly game.

Shamfrit
07-03-2009, 15:43
So if Stubborn LD8 with D&D is Stubborn LD8...

Doom and Darkness makes that unit Unbreakable...on every roll except double 6.

(12 - 3 = 9...1- 3 = 8...)

Thanks guys, you just broke Doom and Darkness into being the abuseable power spell of the month.

:p

EvC
07-03-2009, 17:15
Just to convolute the issue:

Unlike the aforementioned Bigged's Kickin' Boots, neither D&D nor the vampiric aura specifically state they alter the profile. Both mention giving a penalty, which AFAIK isn't the same.
So, there is a precedent for changing a unit's profile - and it's specifically so mentioned. Going by that pecedent I would be inclined to say that anything that doesn't specifically mention altering the profile doesn't, in fact, alter the profile.

Once again, a profile is a collection of stats. Whenever a model's stats are altered, so its its profile. By definiton.

Bran Dawri
07-03-2009, 17:53
No. Where does it say that?

If it did, the already powerful Van Horstmann's Speculum would take not only an opposing model's S,A & T, but also any bonuses said opposing model gains from items or special rules.

Lexmechanic
07-03-2009, 19:22
Let's take a strange example, then. Chaos Daemons vs. Skaven. A Screaming Bell has enough Clanrats (Ld5) for two qualifying ranks (and therefore, +2 Ld bonus due to Skaven Strength in Numbers) is in combat with the Masque. The Bell has rolled its stubborn result in the preceding Skaven shooting phase and the Masque has used its Eternal Dance to knock the Skaven Ld down by -1. The Skaven lose the combat.

Stubborn means we ignore the combat modifiers, so it doesn't matter what we lost by. The current Skaven Ld value would be 6, taking into account both the positive modifier of ranks and the negative modifier of the Masque, but the profile value is 5.

We roll a 6 for our Break Test. I think the Skaven passed. You think that because the unit was stubborn, they failed. Which is it?

I think this is a really good example. Arguing that D&D and other ld chancing stuff aren't taken into account in stubborn breaktests rises such strange things as stubborn ld8(5+3) skaven breaking with a roll of 6.

I would say stubborn only discards combat resolution, as said in BRB, for breaktests.

Ganymede
07-03-2009, 20:57
during break tests, stubborn units use their unmodified leadership. no plusses, no minues from any source.



You made this up. THe stubborn rules don't mention the words "unmodified leadership" at all.

Ganymede
07-03-2009, 21:00
No. Where does it say that?

If it did, the already powerful Van Horstmann's Speculum would take not only an opposing model's S,A & T, but also any bonuses said opposing model gains from items or special rules.

It says such in the rules for characteristic profiles.

Additionally, your argument strategy in your second paragraph is not all that strong in the warhammer rules set. The rules are not as tight as they could be and pointing a percieved inconsistency doesn't rewrite the rules.

Bran Dawri
07-03-2009, 21:08
I know - I'm just arguing as a mentol exercise. (Although I do stand by the point that rules ought to be that tight.)
Like I said in my first post, i'd never try to pull this on someone...

knightime98
08-03-2009, 08:01
I can see this argument going the way that the old salamanders went..
The rule says, "spout fire" so it is a Flaming attack.. player 1 says
player 2 - but, it doesn't say in the rules that "it is a flaming attack"..
and so on for like 3 years until GW did in fact release a FAQ saying that Salamanders count as "flaming attacks".. yeah, it only took 3 years.. Thanks GW for taking your time on that one.

I expect the same with this..
It is a great question, however, the answer will not be forthcoming ANY time soon..
Essentially, it's going to be a 4+ die roll each game until...

Edit: Not only did GW NOT address it in the new army book.. They released the Lizardmen army book and THEN released the FAQ.. so, go figure..

Neckutter
08-03-2009, 14:49
You made this up. THe stubborn rules don't mention the words "unmodified leadership" at all.

actually i gave my interpertation of the rules. :P

if you dont like my vernacular, you can read the rulebook exact wording, which means you use the profile's leadership. thats where i got the "no plusses, no minuses" thing. :)

Ganymede
08-03-2009, 15:28
actually i gave my interpertation of the rules. :P

if you dont like my vernacular, you can read the rulebook exact wording, which means you use the profile's leadership. thats where i got the "no plusses, no minuses" thing. :)

And yet, I fail to see how you bridge the canyon between "leadership on the profile" and "unmodified leadership."

Gazak Blacktoof
08-03-2009, 15:49
The rules seem clear to me.

The unit always uses its own Ld value (nobody else's). If the value has been modified they will use the new value. They ignore break test modifiers (those arising from combat resolution). There doesn't appear to be any indication that they ignore all Ld modifiers only those that apply specifically to break tests.

Alternatively a stubborn unit can use a "borrowed" leadership value but then all modifiers apply as normal.

Lord Dan
08-03-2009, 16:41
And yet, I fail to see how you bridge the canyon between "leadership on the profile" and "unmodified leadership."

I can't tell if you're desperately trying to stick to your guns or if you sincerely can't see the obviously grammatical and technical similarities between explicitly using "something that is stated" (leadership on profile) and "not using anything else" (unmodified leadership).

Edit: Does it say anything about "borrowing" leadership changing your profile? If not, couldn't one argue that spells and such changing Ld aren't technically changing the profile, but are merely being "borrowed" (assuming they don't literally state that they change the profile)?

Ganymede
08-03-2009, 16:54
I can't tell if you're desperately trying to stick to your guns or if you sincerely can't see the obviously grammatical and technical similarities between explicitly using "something that is stated" (leadership on profile) and "not using anything else" (unmodified leadership).



You are not very perceptive, then.

If the obvious similarities are so apparent, why are you having such trouble actually explaining them in a coherent way? I'm not going to explain your own position for you, after all.

Lord Dan
08-03-2009, 17:26
You are not very perceptive, then.

If the obvious similarities are so apparent, why are you having such trouble actually explaining them in a coherent way? I'm not going to explain your own position for you, after all.

Is that your defense? Make snide and underhanded comments about competency and perceptiveness in order to sound intelligent? If you have something to contribute that extends beyond implying I'm an idiot, I'm all ears. Failing that, I really don't see what else there is to discuss here.

I thought I explained myself quite coherently, and I'm sorry you didn't comprehend it. Let me try it another way:

Unmodified Leadership- Leadership that has not been changed. Not for anything, not ever, no exceptions.

Leadership on Profile- The leadership that is listed. Nothing anything else, not ever, no exceptions.

It's evident, then, that you can have the leadership on your profile be unmodified, as that's exactly what's implied in the rules. No one will argue that you can use something other than the unmodified leadership on your profile for break tests. What they will argue (and I agree with them) is that you can bypass the fact that you can only use the leadership listed on the profile by literally changing the profile.

I hope that clears things up for you.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2009, 17:47
Of course you forgot to add the sentence after that

"Stubborn troops with a leadership value of 8 will only ever break on a roll of 9"
Emphasis mine. Subborn troops originally Ld8 under Doom and Darkness don't have a leadership value of 8 anymore.

Asmodiseus
08-03-2009, 20:16
Actually that is not correct as Doom and Darkness only gives you a -3 penalty to any leadership test you must take so they are indeed still at leadership 8. If Doom and Darkness stated that units affected are -3 to their leadership then you would be correct.

Shamfrit
08-03-2009, 20:19
And my point still stands.

-3 to a roll of 9 is 6. A pass.

Doom and Darkness by that interpretation makes your opponent's Stubborn units better.

WLBjork
08-03-2009, 20:25
It says such in the rules for characteristic profiles.

Except... it doesn't actually state this.

Indeded, AFAIK the only thing that modifies a profile is the O&G magic item "Kickin Boots".

Asmodiseus
08-03-2009, 22:30
And my point still stands.

-3 to a roll of 9 is 6. A pass.

Doom and Darkness by that interpretation makes your opponent's Stubborn units better.

Accept of course that it does not say -3 to the dice roll, it states -3 penalty. A penalty is by definition a bad thing, so a -3 penalty to a leadership test would be adding 3 to the roll, and since stubborn troops are never effected by any modifier on break tests D&D has no effect.

So to recap

1.Anything that says it modifys a units leadership value effects Stubborn troops unless anyone can find a rule that says the profiles written in the army books are set and can not be changed.
2. Anything that says it modifys the units leadership tests/rolls does not as per the rule for stubborn troops on page 53, specifically where it states that a unit with leadership 8 only ever breaks on a roll of 9 or more.

Deacon Bane
08-03-2009, 23:18
Exept that it doesn't say they are never effected by any modifier. it is any Break test modifier, D&D is not a Break test modifier, it is a -3 penalty to any Leadership based test. Break tests are based on Leadership therefore it is -3 to leadership.
Skirmishers suffer no movement penalty for moving over difficult terrain, does that mean they aren't effected by Mistress of the Marsh while moving through forests.

Shamfrit
08-03-2009, 23:19
-3 penalty does not signify +3 to rolls. It means -3 to rolls, and minus implues a deducation, unless we're going to RAI/RAW basic maths now?

Orthank
08-03-2009, 23:42
Strange discussion, of course that unit use its LD for the test, it is unmodified by CR, but its LD itself can be modified. Aura of the Dark Majesty is the best example.

Gazak Blacktoof
09-03-2009, 00:27
-3 penalty does not signify +3 to rolls. It means -3 to rolls, and minus implues a deducation, unless we're going to RAI/RAW basic maths now?

This line of reasoning isn't healthy for the thread. Can you please let that topic die, now that you've informed those people that weren't previously aware about the poor wording of the D&D spell?

EDIT: I think we're approaching the point where further debate on that sub-topic is trolling/spamming.

Asmodiseus
09-03-2009, 04:06
Exept that it doesn't say they are never effected by any modifier. it is any Break test modifier, D&D is not a Break test modifier, it is a -3 penalty to any Leadership based test. Break tests are based on Leadership therefore it is -3 to leadership.
Skirmishers suffer no movement penalty for moving over difficult terrain, does that mean they aren't effected by Mistress of the Marsh while moving through forests.

Well your example doesnt really work as mistress of the march specfically states it effects the units movement value. To make your example apply lets say instead of skirmishers its a Chaos Spawn, and lets give the spawn a rule that states that the spawn is immune to modifiers that change its movement roll. Then lets change mistress of the marsh to state "For units that use dice to determine movement, subtract 6 from the roll". In this situation of course the spawn is not effected.

And I fail to see how you want to apply the first half of the rule "They always ignore break test modifiers", and not apply the second "Troops with a leadership value of 8 will ONLY EVER break on a roll of 9 or more. The only argument that would be valid is that D&D changes your leadership profile itself, but seeing the wording of the spell, I dont see how you can argue that.

WLBjork
09-03-2009, 07:10
1.Anything that says it modifys a units leadership value effects Stubborn troops unless anyone can find a rule that says the profiles written in the army books are set and can not be changed.

Tell you what, you find where it says they aren't whilst I find where it says they are.


They probably should change, but there is literally nothing that says whether they do or not, and the use of profile in this particular rule problem doesnt help. Indeed, I think this could be the only time whereby it is used and creates a problem.

Shamfrit
09-03-2009, 10:13
Sorry Gazak, you're right, that wasn't very helpful, but, for the record, let's look at how +3, as apposed to -3 (and this is a very basic math error for Games Workshop) means:

LD8 needs a 5 or lower to pass. Because they're still Stubborn LD8, but a roll of 6 (+3) = a 9, so they break.

I know it's not how the spell works but it's considerably easier to consider that unit as having LD5 for the duration of the spell's effect, since this is effectually what the spell does. They're still LD8 on the profile, granted, but the dice roll treats them as LD5.

Deacon Bane
09-03-2009, 12:03
I think the example given with the Stubborn rule is an example, not an actual part of the rule. And that they are showing an example of CR.

Also Mistress, never mentions movement value, until a unit flees or pursues, then you use it's base rate to roll either 2 or 3 dice.

As Shamfrit says the spell adds 3 to your bresk test, so Stubborn troops at LD 8 will need 5 or less. IMO. No where does it state they ignore any modifiers, only Break test modifiers.

Asmodiseus
09-03-2009, 14:38
It states that leadership 8 troops ONLY EVER break on a roll of 9 or more so yes it does state it ignore ANY modifiers, it is right there in the ONLY EVER part. You cant ignore a part of a rule by stating I think its only an example. If it was an example of the unit ignoring only CR then it would state "If a unit with a leadership of 8 loses combat by 3, then they would still only break on a roll of 9+. Instead they completely ignore CR and state that a unit with leadership 8 will only ever break on a nine or more. You cant get much clearer than that.

However Shamfrit does have a point about the -3, basicly we are stuck with a crappy wording of D&D. By the spells wording it clearly does not effect the models leadership characteristic, however the spells effect only makes sense if you do effect the leadership characteristic. So in this situation I would roll off on it, it seems the only fair way.

Atrahasis
09-03-2009, 14:55
D&D adjusts the roll.

If the dice show 4 and 3, you've rolled 10 if you are under the influence of D&D.