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Rydmend
05-03-2009, 17:58
Whenever someone cries about rules it usually bothers me because most of the time the complaining is unwarrented. If you play with an outdated book I have an easier time understanding complaints but those problems should be expected in an older book. As of now I think the new books are great, VC and DE are strong but very beatable. HE, WE, LM, skaven, empire, bret and dwarves all seem to fair really well around here. Some of the older books like OK, BoC and TK can be tricky to play but can still pull wins with some tactics.

Before last weekend I never played against the daemon army, now that I have I will break my golden rule and post a gripe. Daemons are not overpowered in the most horrible way possible but they absolutley have an advantage with thier current unit selection.

Now I wasn't murdered in my 5 games against them but so far I have had 4 straight losses and 1 draw with my lizardmen. I'm not the best player in the world but I usually average a 50% win/loss on a consistant basis versus most armies (VC, WE, HE, WoC, dwarves). My heavy magic has seemed to work out the best for me so far but daemons pack such huge magic and huge CC abilities at the same time that it is hard to get the edge.

My biggest complaint would have to be flamers....the sheer amount of damage they can do is insane. My second biggest complaint is how fast everything is, I know that most of the daemon units are glass cannons but when you have all your CC units m5 or m6 with banners that allow extra d6 charges there isn't much you can do to prevent the charge.

Okay I'm done ranting. I'm sure this is nothing you all haven't heard before.

Lord Malorne
05-03-2009, 18:02
Welcome to the old world...;).

Nothing is going to change for a long time, so either tougher armies which LM were not or we wait until the next Daemon book in the long long away, in the after time (watched south park last night) know as 8th.

Daemons are here to stay, I only hope someone proves me wrong...

Sarah S
05-03-2009, 18:51
I like playing against Daemons. In a tournament last weekend (where I placed second) I massacred an undivided list with Bloodthirster, multiple Horror units and a Plaguebearer bunker with BSB with Skaven with no magic.

Phazael
05-03-2009, 18:54
Simple answer to beating Daemons with Lizards. Two Engines of the Gods and a Blade of Realities.

Foegnasher
05-03-2009, 18:59
I like playing against Daemons. In a tournament last weekend (where I placed second) I massacred an undivided list with Bloodthirster, multiple Horror units and a Plaguebearer bunker with BSB with Skaven with no magic.

Hell yeah.

i got a draw, how much shooting did you bring? all i had was 2 wlc and some PWG. he had the magic turkey, fleshhounds, the plaguebearer bunker with bsb, and horrors/flamers.

slingersam
05-03-2009, 19:10
We have a demon player here, but when he saw how boring
it was to play, he bought a Tomb King army and is doing quite
nicely for himself. The only thing I regret is he brings his
ulti-demon army of death to every tournament. So theirs still
some negatives

Vogon
05-03-2009, 19:11
I've been a Dark Elf player for many years but the other night I was persuaded to take my daemons for a bit of a change. I had a game against a guy with the new lizzies including his fresh out of the box stegadon.

The daemons lost quite convincingly though I have to say that the blade of realities won the game for him (taking out my keeper and then proceeding to wade through every other unit on the battle field).

Daemons can be a challenge to play against (I know having done it many times with my DE) but are not the unbeatable nightmare they've been made out to be.

Cheers

Vogon

MalusCalibur
05-03-2009, 21:09
Daemons can be a challenge to play against (I know having done it many times with my DE) but are not the unbeatable nightmare they've been made out to be.

Quoted for truth. Emphasis mine.


MalusCalibur

W0lf
05-03-2009, 22:17
Has anyone ever said Daemons are unbeatable?

Ive never read that.

Havock
05-03-2009, 22:26
Same here; it's just that they can do everything just as good, if not better than most other armies, except long range arty, which isn't an issue because:
1- they don't run
2- they don't die to hefty CR as easily as undead
3- They always have that wardsave

Because of the pseudo-crumbling-unbreakableness of the units, they can force a lot of armies to play 'their game': Attrition.

Lordy
05-03-2009, 22:54
Daemons are far too strong, just look at recent tournament results, i expect Lizards will end up being the anti-daemon army and EoTG is the most stupid and overpowered unit in GW's already rediculous balancing history.

Pavic
05-03-2009, 23:02
...EoTG is the most stupid and overpowered unit in GW's already rediculous balancing history.

Are you seriously complaining about something that only requires you to deal 2 wounds to a T2 model to eliminate it? :eyebrows:

Lordy
05-03-2009, 23:48
Yes i sure am!

EvC
05-03-2009, 23:57
Pretty telling that you don't mention the 2+ armour save, the fact it's only hit on a 6+ when randomising shooting, and it can give itself a 5+ ward save there, don't you think Pavic?

Pavic
06-03-2009, 00:00
Pretty telling that you don't mention the 2+ armour save, the fact it's only hit on a 6+ when randomising shooting, and it can give itself a 5+ ward save there, don't you think Pavic?

Sure, the priest probably is not going to go down to shooting or magic missles, but once you get him in combat, he is done. Considering that the stegadon is only M6, this really should not be any problem for any army, save Dwarfs.

Danny_D14
06-03-2009, 00:04
Get close and challenge? Not like it's cheap either! Though effective for it's price.

EvC
06-03-2009, 01:28
Sure, the priest probably is not going to go down to shooting or magic missles, but once you get him in combat, he is done. Considering that the stegadon is only M6, this really should not be any problem for any army, save Dwarfs.

M6 is pretty fast. The only thing generally faster than that is cavalry. Cavalry does not want to be near the Engine of the Gods, as it has an attack that devastates cavalry with ease. Add in some of the best diverters in the game, and even then the Priest still gets his 2+ save in combat...

I'm not saying that it's the most stupid and overpowered creation in history (like the other guy), but let's not downplay how good it really is. T2, 2 wounds, sure, but that's not even half the story. Easy prey? Not really...

Pavic
06-03-2009, 01:47
I'm not saying that it's the most stupid and overpowered creation in history (like the other guy)...

This was my only point to be honest, so I think we are actually in agreement with each other :D

NAKORN66
06-03-2009, 22:53
Good enemy makes you stronger! I'm sure you can beat it. Think and try harder!

Dark_Knight
07-03-2009, 05:41
Any army can be beaten. Just use every tool available. Things like terrain for instance can change a game big time. Just use it right. I haven't fought Daemons yet though. I would love the opportunity though. I love the challenge they would pose against my 2003 print Bretonnian Army book. Huzzah!

Nicha11
07-03-2009, 07:55
Ahh another Deamon topic how interesting:o

So far heres how they go

"I don't mean to complaing but they are really strong"

"No they aren't i beat them XXXX times with my army"

Repeat 2-5 times

"But i got slaughtered when someone brought their deamon army"

Repeat 5-10

"No army is unbeatable"

Repeat ad nauseam.

Not being offensive to anyone here it's just funny how these threads go.

Caine Mangakahia
07-03-2009, 09:05
When someone says that they've beaten the Demon army XXX times, I wonder how often said person has been facing Flamers, Horrors, Fleshhounds Skulltaker and a BT all in the same army, or said player was rolling sixes on everything except Ld tests.
Blade of Realites is obviously an overcompensation to Greater Deamons and the pendant of Kaleth (although a BT with obsidian armour will point and laugh at it)

slingersam
07-03-2009, 09:40
^honestly thats my biggest grip with demons is the Obsidian
armor other wise I find ways around horrors and flamers
haven't versed flesh hounds yet so I cant complain about them.
But I haven't really played demons enough to really hate them.

GuyLeCheval
07-03-2009, 12:35
They are NOT unbeatable. Of the ten times I play against them, I win 3 times, draw it 3 times and get bashed 4 times. Of course they are a bit better than the others but not unbeatable. Their only real issue are flamers and the obsidian armour...

Hubman
07-03-2009, 12:47
Same here; it's just that they can do everything just as good, if not better than most other armies, except long range arty, which isn't an issue because:
1- they don't run
2- they don't die to hefty CR as easily as undead
3- They always have that wardsave

Because of the pseudo-crumbling-unbreakableness of the units, they can force a lot of armies to play 'their game': Attrition.

Exactly, and donīt forget #4:

4- They have acces to really quick troop types (Fleshhounds, mounted Daemonettes, flyers etc.).

Kind regards,

Hubman

mithrandir
07-03-2009, 13:50
I believe it was hinted at earlier in this thread... lizards should be very competative vs. daemons, I think their composition was developed to attone for the hightened advantages that daemons were receiving on battlefields. Two Steggies with 'engine of the gods' is really nasty against either daemons or undead... hmmnn, funny, those are the two power gamer choices for collection and tournament play when it comes to army selection. I believe lizards will tone down these two, until everyone starts complaining how 'filthy' lizards are - unfair/broken - you know the drill.

jax40kplyr1
07-03-2009, 16:06
Agree with the above comments - Daemons aren't unbeatable, but they do require a different style to play against. For older army lists - yes they can be difficult to play, but in the same token, so are most of the newer army books as well. Yes a bloodthirster tooled up is hard as crap to kill, but they also balance it out with it being 500+ points. Yes flamers can put out a heck of a lot of shots, but are vulnerable to magic, heavy cavalry, artillery, etc. With the exception of plague bearers, just about everything else is toughness 3, with a 5+ ward. They do fail those you know. Also keep in mind that Daemons are limited in the magic department, with you basically having to take a greater daemon to get about Lvl 1, coming in around 600 points to have that.
As far as anti-daemon armies, I think lizzies are great anti-daemon, depending on how they are played. Of course, lizzies, being such a balanced book (in my opinion), can be anti everything, which is how armies are supposed to be played and designed. How funny is it when someone takes a bloodthirster and it gets tarpitted by raised zombies? Also keep in mind where many of the skaven rumors are pointing towards - such as warpstone weapons giving a -1 to ward saves and such. 10 jezzails shooting at a bloodthirster - no armor save and a 6+ ward, wounding on 4s? Thats 2-3 wounds a turn. With the Lizardmen out now and the skaven lists getting ready to be running rampant, combined with VC matching up great against Daemons, I think you'll start seeing less and less of them at tournaments.

badgeraddict
07-03-2009, 16:10
I've beat Daemons. Which might not sound like much of an achievment, but to me & my gaming group no army is broken if *I* have beaten them! What with my random luck and dice rolling.

I'm the only person I know that has had a lord level caster miscast himself to death by turn two.

EvC
07-03-2009, 17:47
Agree with the above comments - Daemons aren't unbeatable, but they do require a different style to play against. For older army lists - yes they can be difficult to play, but in the same token, so are most of the newer army books as well. Yes a bloodthirster tooled up is hard as crap to kill, but they also balance it out with it being 500+ points.

That's not really balanced, as he's easily worth 600 points. Well, it's not so much the Bloodthirster himself, it's the criminally cheap Daemonic Gifts he has access to- like hatred every round (except none of the benefits) for 25 points. That alone should be at least 50 points with his many attacks, and so it's unsurprising that the majority of Daemon players use a Bloodthirster. Point and click is everyone's preferred gaming style, of course...