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View Full Version : the big mek with shock attack gun cant shoot it..



DeathStar
05-03-2009, 23:54
a big mek with shock attack gun, cannot shoot it.. its says in the rule book the infintry cant shoot ordnance weapons, and a big mek is a infintry model, there for he cant shoot it..

Gensuke626
05-03-2009, 23:56
Deathstar, give us the page number that says that Infantry can not shoot ordnance weapons.

TheBigBadWolf
05-03-2009, 23:58
Yeh where does it say this :confused:

Melchor
05-03-2009, 23:59
If anyone tried to pull that on *me* I'd teach them the rulebook is available in hardback for a reason...

Lord of ???
05-03-2009, 23:59
Ahh.. but is he firing an Ordinance weapon or a weapon that just happens to use the Ordinance sized template.

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:05
Ahh.. but is he firing an Ordinance weapon or a weapon that just happens to use the Ordinance sized template.

He's firing an Ordnance weapon. The SAG gets to roll 2D6 and take the highest for Vehicle Pen and everything.

Thoume
06-03-2009, 00:07
You're right in that the fluff text says infantry can't carry ordnance weapons (p.29 main rulebook), but the note underneith the SAG's statline covers it being portable (heavy), but using the ordnance marker instead of the normal blast marker. Suppose it should have been something like heavy 1, ordnance blast to avoid this issue, but its pretty much etched in the playerbase that it works like a heavy weapon... :)

Heimlich
06-03-2009, 00:08
Ahh.. but is he firing an Ordinance weapon or a weapon that just happens to use the Ordinance sized template.

It's the same thing.....

Shield of Freedom
06-03-2009, 00:13
Um... Demo charges anyone? We've been "firing" ordanance weapons with infantry for years.

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:15
its on page 29 of the rulebook..... and they should have made it haevy 1 large blast, but no they made it haevy 1 ordnance, thus it cannot fire.... keep in mind that if someone pulled this on me i would what a haevy 5 fist looks like and it dosent scatter lol, but yah, according to the rules it cant shoot,

Bloosquig
06-03-2009, 00:18
I don't have my book handy but i'm almost positive it mentions that yes, its ordnance but it acts in all ways as an infantry unit firing a heavy weapon. Its on one of the pages describing the Shokk Attack Gun.

And frankly 0/10 for the troll post. :rolleyes:

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:19
like i play orks, it is my 40k army..but if someone wants to say to me it dosent shoot, then intill gw puts out a FAQ, i cant shoot it.. :(

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:24
I don't know what to tell you DeathStar...Oh wait, I know! You're Wrong.

Pg 29 says that Ordnance weapons are so huge that they cannot be physically carried by infantry, ect. However at no point during the section on Ordnance does it say anything to the effect that "Infantry Models Can Not Fire Ordnance."

So maybe the Big Mek shouldn't be able to move or stand or something, but there is No Rule that says that Infantry Cannot fire ordnance.

@Heimlich = It's not the same thing. Barbed Stranglers don't roll 2d6 and take the higher die for Vehicle Penetration for example.

@Shield = Thank You!

MadJackMcJack
06-03-2009, 00:26
*sings* Feeeeeeed the troll! Tuppence a post! Tuppence! Tuppence! Tuppence a post!

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:28
like i play orks, it is my 40k army..but if someone wants to say to me it dosent shoot, then intill gw puts out a FAQ, i cant shoot it.. :(

If you say so. :rolleyes:

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:28
*sings* Feeeeeeed the troll! Tuppence a post! Tuppence! Tuppence! Tuppence a post!

I spent part of my afternoon Screaming at "God Hates Fags" protesters to GTFO of my University's campus. Feeding trolls is what I do for fun.

MadJackMcJack
06-03-2009, 00:32
I spent part of my afternoon Screaming at "God Hates Fags" protesters to GTFO of my University's campus. Feeding trolls is what I do for fun.

See, that's your problem right there. Trolls are resistant to sonic damage. Fire and acid damage, however, they are weak to. So the obvious answer is to tip a vat of acid on them and then set fire to them, duh.

Unless they're anti-smoking protesters, in which case sign me up!

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:34
its says that ordnance weapons have to be put on tanks.. and it also says that they cannot be physically carried by infantry, so if you cant carry the weapon you cant fire the weapon,so he cant shoot it cause in the rules it says that he cant even carry it thus he cant shoot it..

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:36
its says that ordnance weapons have to be put on tanks.. and it also says that they cannot be physically carried by infantry, so if you cant carry the weapon you cant fire the weapon,so he cant shoot it cause in the rules it says that he cant even carry it thus he cant shoot it..

Codex overrides rulebook.

Nuff. Said.

Also, it's flavour text (yum yum!) The hint is in the last sentence where it say their RULES are covered on pages 58 to 60.

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:41
its says that ordnance weapons have to be put on tanks..Correct

and it also says that they cannot be physically carried by infantry,Correct
so if you cant carry the weapon you cant fire the weapon,so he cant shoot it cause in the rules it says that he cant even carry it thus he cant shoot it.. Incorrect. The Rules As Written has no such clause. There is no rule that says Infantry Can Not fire Ordnance weapons.

@Madjackmcjack = I don't have a problem with trolls, as I said I do this sort of thing for fun.

Horus38
06-03-2009, 00:42
I don't know what to tell you DeathStar...Oh wait, I know! You're Wrong.

Haha, sigging that.

@ Deathstar, you're confusing the fluff written alongside the rules for actual rules. Infantry being unable to carry ordnance weaponry is NOT an actual in-game mechanic rule

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:42
sure the codex says you can take the shock attack gun, but when you look for the rules to shoot it you need the rule book, and on page 29 it says that it cant be carry by infintry, so how can you shoot something you cant carry.. and on page 58-60 it tells you how to shoot ordnance weapons with units that can carry them, infintry cant carry them so pages 58-60 dont apply to them..

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:45
sure the codex says you can take the shock attack gun, but when you look for the rules to shoot it you need the rule book, and on page 29 it says that it cant be carry by infintry, so how can you shoot something you cant carry.. and on page 58-60 it tells you how to shoot ordnance weapons with units that can carry them, infintry cant carry them so pages 58-60 dont apply to them..

Also, it's only covered under the vehicle section. Guess what Poison is only covered under the HTH section.

Now your Sternguard cannot fire their Bolters as no rules exist on how to use them! :rolleyes:

Also, it's I-N-F-A-N-T-R-Y.

Horus38
06-03-2009, 00:46
sure the codex says you can take the shock attack gun, but when you look for the rules to shoot it you need the rule book, and on page 29 it says that it cant be carry by infintry, so how can you shoot something you cant carry.. and on page 58-60 it tells you how to shoot ordnance weapons with units that can carry them, infintry cant carry them so pages 58-60 dont apply to them..

This is a fairly illogical and convoluted reply saying that pages don't apply because previous pages negate them, etc. There is no rules paradox at work here man, let it go.

pwrgmrguard
06-03-2009, 00:47
its says that ordnance weapons have to be put on tanks.. and it also says that they cannot be physically carried by infantry, so if you cant carry the weapon you cant fire the weapon,so he cant shoot it cause in the rules it says that he cant even carry it thus he cant shoot it..

page numbers, bitte?

i'd like real evidence and not hearsay.

My pg number is 35, of the Ork codex saying it is essentially a heavy weapon, and i don't have a 5th book on me.

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:49
sure the codex says you can take the shock attack gun, but when you look for the rules to shoot it you need the rule book, and on page 29 it says that it cant be carry by infintry, Which is overridden by the codex giving you the option to take a Man Portable Ordnance gun, but do go on.


so how can you shoot something you cant carry..Pull the trigger? Seems simple enough to me.

and on page 58-60 it tells you how to shoot ordnance weapons with units that can carry them, infintry cant carry them so pages 58-60 dont apply to them..This is false logic. Page 58 simply tells you that if you fire Ordnance, then the model that fires it can not fire anything else that turn and that it uses a Large Blast marker. Page 60 tells you that you roll 2D6 and take the highest when you hit a vehicle. Both of those are rules inherent to Ordnance weapons.

To see how the Ordnance guns are fired we must then turn to page 30 where the rules for blast weapons are laid out. Even by your twisted logic, infantry can fire Ordnance because the rules for firing Large Blast marker weapons is on page 30 which "Does Apply" to "infintry".

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:51
My pg number is 35, of the Ork codex saying it is essentially a heavy weapon, and i don't have a 5th book on me.

29 Has a piece of flavour text (like all of the other entries who's following paragraph includes the weapon's rules) and a reference to where Ordnance weapon rules are located as they are a bit more in depth than the other weapon types.

Here's a little piece of history for you as well. In 2nd ed 40k Wargear. It said Battle Cannons would probably never be seen in 40k and were limited to things like Baneblades and Fortresses. Does this mean Russes in that edition could never fire their guns too as (non super heavy) tanks could not carry them? ;)

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:51
so what your saying is that what is said on page 29 is not a rule.? tho its in the RULE BOOK..? and it has nothing to do with fluff, its very clear that it says infintry cant carry ordnance weapons... but according to you people infintry can shoot ordnance weapons, so why the comment on page 29..? this is just gw not proff reading there rule book..

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 00:55
so what your saying is that what is said on page 29 is not a rule.? tho its in the RULE BOOK..? and it has nothing to do with fluff, its very clear that it says infintry cant carry ordnance weapons... but according to you people infintry can shoot ordnance weapons, so why the comment on page 29..? this is just gw not proff reading there rule book..

It's very clear. Infantry can not carry Ordnance weapons. The Ork and Imperial Guard codex have weapons that override this rule (Shock attack guns and Demolition charges respectively) and Codex always overrides the Core Rules when there is a dispute.

However, there is No Rule that says that Infantry can not fire an Ordnance weapon, regardless of whether or not he should be able to carry said weapon.

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:55
so what your saying is that what is said on page 29 is not a rule.? tho its in the RULE BOOK..? and it has nothing to do with fluff, its very clear that it says infintry cant carry ordnance weapons... but according to you people infintry can shoot ordnance weapons, so why the comment on page 29..? this is just gw not proff reading there rule book..

What part of the last sentence in the Paragraph do you not get? Read the other weapon type entries. When do their rules begin? From the 2nd Paragraph onwards. Ordnance rules are more in depth so they need more than a sentence to explain how they work.

Simple.

If this were not the case, by your very twisted logic Heavy Weapons could only ever fire every other turn (read their first paragraph) as they need to be reloaded.

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 00:56
what i am trying to say is how can you shoot a weapon you cant carry....?

pwrgmrguard
06-03-2009, 00:57
I'm pretty sure there are pictures in the rule book too, are those rules too?

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 00:57
It's very clear. Infantry can not carry Ordnance weapons. The Ork and Imperial Guard codex have weapons that override this rule (Shock attack guns and Demolition charges respectively) and Codex always overrides the Core Rules when there is a dispute.

However, there is No Rule that says that Infantry can not fire an Ordnance weapon, regardless of whether or not he should be able to carry said weapon.

FWIW in 4th ed (i'm not sure if this is stil around in this edition) it said "models cannot assault after firing Ordnance weapons". Now why would this sentence be here if Infantry could not use them?

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 01:01
what i am trying to say is how can you shoot a weapon you cant carry....?

And I answered this already. Activate the Triggering mechanism. I'm certain that i can't carry a Man-Portable gatling gun because I know I'm weak...but I'm fairly certain I can figure out how to operate it.


FWIW in 4th ed (i'm not sure if this is stil around in this edition) it said "models cannot assault after firing Ordnance weapons". Now why would this sentence be here if Infantry could not use them?

Well, in 4th ed there were Demolition Charges. So, just like in 5th ed, there was at least 1 codex that could toss out an Ordnance blast.

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 01:02
like im not saying that i would imply this on anyone like i think that it can shoot cause why the wtf would they put it in the codex for..... just i went to a tournament and someone pulled this on me and the orginizer said it was true and i am simply telling you what they said to me, like my 40k army is orks and because of that ruleing my SAG couldent shoot at the last SM that was sitting on his objective, so i lost the game..

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 01:03
like im not saying that i would imply this on anyone like i think that it can shoot cause why the wtf would they put it in the codex for..... just i went to a tournament and someone pulled this on me and the orginizer said it was true and i am simply telling you what they said to me, like my 40k army is orks and because of that ruleing my SAG couldent shoot at the last SM that was sitting on his objective, so i lost the game..

Then that TO is an ass and you are very gullible. Are you trying to convince yourself that he was right or are you just Trolling?

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 01:03
like im not saying that i would imply this on anyone like i think that it can shoot cause why the wtf would they put it in the codex for..... just i went to a tournament and someone pulled this on me and the orginizer said it was true and i am simply telling you what they said to me, like my 40k army is orks and because of that ruleing my SAG couldent shoot at the last SM that was sitting on his objective, so i lost the game..

And I'm telling you what you should have told them. There Is No Rule in the Rulebook that says that Infantry can not fire Ordnance weapons.

pwrgmrguard
06-03-2009, 01:04
You got screwed on bad sportsman ship, but that doesn't mean you start spewing it like the gospel. the decision was wrong, against RAW and RaI, and it's simply not the case.

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 01:07
GW needs to keep there TO upto date cause this was at a HOH tournament and this ruleing was made a GW employee..

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 01:08
GW needs to keep there TO upto date cause this was at a HOH tournament and this ruleing was made a GW employee..

Well then, go complain to GW. Complaining about it here isn't going to help you.

pwrgmrguard
06-03-2009, 01:09
its not really a common problem, this is the first i have heard of this, and it's so specific its not likely to be faqqed or remedied in anyway by GW.

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 01:12
GW needs to keep there TO upto date cause this was at a HOH tournament and this ruleing was made a GW employee..

So you've fobbed the blame off on someone else. I ask again. What is the purpose of you creating this thread?

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 01:12
will do.. thank you, dident mean to make it sound as if i was trolling, cause honestly i was not trying to...

pwrgmrguard
06-03-2009, 01:13
if you weren't trying to troll you should have posed it as a question instead of vigourously defending very bad logic based on an unrevealed personal experience.

zombied00d
06-03-2009, 01:14
Wow. So, what we're expected to buy into here is the idea that an employee of GW said "Yeah, despite the rulebook not implicitly stating anything about this, AT ALL, I'm going to enforce an esoteric ruling completely against the spirit of the rules, and overturn the actual codex rules for a unit"

Call me somewhat incredulous.

I mean don't get me wrong, I've met some knuckleheads jockeying the register at a GW store or two, but this is a whole seperate level of ... something

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 01:14
the porpose of this thread is to show you that you can get f@#$ at a tornament..

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 01:14
will do.. thank you, dident mean to make it sound as if i was trolling, cause honestly i was not trying to...

Well, you did it without trying which is probably something of an acheivment. :rolleyes:

WildWeasel
06-03-2009, 01:16
When it comes to game rules pretty much everywhere, the specific overrides the general. So, even if you were to assume that the flavor text on page 29 is a general rule that disallows infantry from carrying Ordnance, the specific rule of the Big Mek's army list entry says he can take the SAG. The SAG's rules say that, while it is an Ordnance type weapon, it is treated as a heavy for purposes of moving and firing.

Therefor, a Big Mek can take it, and can fire it on a turn he doesn't move.

Though, given that this suddenly became "Oh, this got pulled on me on a tourney when I was fielding the SAG QQ," AFTER you presented this in a rather hostile, "Haha suckers!" fashion and got summarily proven wrong, I do have to say, troll. And poorly done.

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 01:16
@zombied00d= It simply reinforces my belief that humans in general are stupid. Not saying any of you are, but we make up the vast minority of the population anyhow.

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 01:16
the porpose of this thread is to show you that you can get f@#$ at a tornament..

What's the Dolphin of this thread then?

If you bothered to speak up and actually say "hey have you actually read the rules?" then this does not happen. I have played in many tournaments and seeing as people read the rules nothing like this occurs.

WildWeasel
06-03-2009, 01:18
Wow. So, what we're expected to buy into here is the idea that an employee of GW said "Yeah, despite the rulebook not implicitly stating anything about this, AT ALL, I'm going to enforce an esoteric ruling completely against the spirit of the rules, and overturn the actual codex rules for a unit"

Call me somewhat incredulous.

I mean don't get me wrong, I've met some knuckleheads jockeying the register at a GW store or two, but this is a whole seperate level of ... something

...and which, in fact, would make a $30 dollar model they sell completely and utterly useless. Not as in, "This model isn't very good at what it's suppsoed to do," which does happen. But, "Can't even use the one specific thign for which it exists."

Yeah, not buying it.

DeathStar
06-03-2009, 01:18
yah man its not the first time..... last time i was at a WHFB tornament and i had deamons and i took the same dimonic icon on more then one unit and the TO told me i couldent do that cause the FAQ was out, so i was like ok sure he knows what hes talking about, the FAQ came out a week later.....

Gensuke626
06-03-2009, 01:19
...and which, in fact, would make a $30 dollar model they sell completely and utterly useless. Not as in, "This model isn't very good at what it's suppsoed to do," which does happen. But, "Can't even use the one specific thign for which it exists."

Yeah, not buying it.

Not buying the model or the Load of BS that the OP's argument dumps in our laps?

WildWeasel
06-03-2009, 01:19
Not buying the model or the Load of BS that the OP's argument dumps in our laps?

The load of Ballistic Skill :)

Grimtuff
06-03-2009, 01:20
yah man its not the first time..... last time i was at a WHFB tornament and i had deamons and i took the same dimonic icon on more then one unit and the TO told me i couldent do that cause the FAQ was out, so i was like ok sure he knows what hes talking about, the FAQ came out a week later.....

Did you know "Gullible" is not in the Dictionary? Go on, check it out!

Master Stark
06-03-2009, 01:22
so what your saying is that what is said on page 29 is not a rule.? tho its in the RULE BOOK..?

Bingo! Give this man a kewpie doll!

Not all text in the rulebook is a rule. Some of it is 'flavour' text to describe the rationale behind a rule, or to provide examples.

Infantry can carry anything that can be purchased for them from their codex.

This can include ordnance weapons.

They can then fire said weapons.