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kaintxu
06-03-2009, 08:28
Well Hello I have the semifinals of a tournament coming next week, and I have to play againts vampires with my daemons.

Seems noobish question because I have allready gotten up to this point with no trouble, and am pretty confident usually on both, my skill, and of couse army, but now its a bit different.

The list I play is roughly the following.

- Bloddthister (+1 str, flaming atacks, eternal hatred, khorne armor)
- Herald of Nurgle (lvl 1, BSB, sundering banner)
- Herald of tzeentz(Knows whole lore, dispell skroll thing)
- The Mask

-14 Plaguebearers (standar bearer)
-10 Horrors
-10 Horrors

-5 Blood hounds

-3 Juggys
-5 Flamethrowers

He plays roughly the following

- Vampires Lord (Lvl 3, +2 power dice, 4+ ward save with stupidity, book that gives WS 1, rising ghouls skill, Knows whole lore)
- Vampire (Lvl 2 rising ghouls skill, Avatar of death (+1 CR))
-Vampire(Lvl 2 rising ghouls skill...)
- Wight king (or whatever the name is of the death guard guy, BSB, drakenhoff standar)

- 10 Ghouls
- 10 Ghouls
- 10 Ghouls
- 6 Vampire bats

- 19-20 Blackguard guys (He usually puts here at least 3 characters against mean thingies such as bloodthsiter)

- 3 Specters + 1 Howling banshee

And i Think thats mainly it. How do you see it, any chances? its really hard because he has 1000+ points in one unit hard to take down, with tons of magic to bring it back, then the Specters are gonna stay behind hidden so i dont kill them.

Any recomendations about how to fight him? Should I use The sundering standar againts Vampire lore or whichever lore his Vampire lord takes?

The problem is that if I charge with bloodthiste to his big unit I get either on duel with his Vampire lord, which i almost dont do a scrath having to hit on 5's and his 4+ war save, and he has a static CR of 3 ranks + 1 standar + 1BSB + 1Avatar of death + 1 outnumber= 7, so that means im going to loose, and chances are Bloodthister dies, plus he usually goes for fire lore on his lord, and gets himself the flame blade spell, hiting on 2+ wounding on 2 or 3+...

I have thought chargin with mask + Bloodthister, Mask acepting duels, and blodthister pounding BSB, and another vampire, or even 2 vampires, so he gets less magic....

I'm so lost

Neknoh
06-03-2009, 08:43
This is what you do:


Drop the Masque in favour of another Herald of Tzeentch, Master of Sorcery and the Lore of Light, take the Lore of Light on your other Herald as well. Lore of Shadows can be rather fun as well, undead have abyssmal initiative, and gobbling graveguards without them getting any saves with the Pit of Shades is immensely fun, this will ALSO give you Unseen Lurker, which you can use to have your Bloodthirster make a charge move.

Now for the fun part.

Just fly your Bloodthirster to the flank of the grave guard unit, or to the rear (even better), place Bloodcrushers on the opposite end. Cast Unseen Lurker on the thirster. Win. Remember, Flaming Attacks negates regeneration, with Eternal Hatred, you should really be doing around 4-5 wounds to the unit, winning combat and thusly preventing him from turning around, if he moves his characters to fight you, just challenge, and then you charge into the rear with Bloodcrushers.

Really, Bloodthirsters and Bloodcrushers are the answer to most, if not all, deathstars when it comes to Daemons. Just make sure to use your Flamers to blast away any and all pesky Zombie Screens

kaintxu
06-03-2009, 08:53
The thing is on his turn he will cast a screen in front of crusers redirecting them.

I cant change the list because its the same list fow the whole tournament, so im stuck to that.

I have standar of sundering so light magic no good idea cause i get miscasts on double 1, 2 and 3.

Take into mind he has, 2 +2+ 1 +1 dispell dice

Neknoh
06-03-2009, 09:04
Then dispell it, only a set ammount of spells can summon screens, and they aren't spammable like the Invocation of Nehek. Use your Scroll on thatone.

Furthermore, just challenge the vampires and beat them in combat, simple as that, you should actually be able to utterly trounce a vampire, and you are allready tieing combat from a Rear charge (outnumber+standard vs Rear, just wound a vampire and you win, preventing him from turning around and getting ranks and shields etc).

Chaos Undecided
06-03-2009, 09:09
Well ideally you want to get at least one turn of shooting on that unit with your flamers to soften it up a bit the problem here is making the damage stick as he heavily out magics you to summon replacements, at least they wont get a regen save.

I think you best bet is trying to setup a combined charge on that unit with the Bloodthirster hitting its flank and either the plaguebearers (for rank bonus) or juggers (for killing blow on those vamps) on the front, that way not only do you get rid of his rank bonus but your Thirster will only be able to be challenged by a character on that flank for at least the first round of combat. Hopefully this will allow you to cripple his power unit and casting ability in short order.

Bit of an idealised situation I know but its the only thing that comes to mind, the main thing i think you need to avoid if is solo charging the thirster into the front of that unit.

kaintxu
06-03-2009, 09:30
Actually raising zombies is necromantic isn't it?

Plus we also have to take into mind his ghould dancing around that on one turn almos become 20 man unit.

I played him once on a final, and i lost, due to bad luck, 6 mistcasts on 2 dices, and 14 attacks (8 of crushers, 6 of doggies) hitting on 3+ and wounding on 2 or 3+ on tha flank of the black guard, being the thister (with only 2 wounds left) on the front, and i still lost combat cause those 14 attacks only caused 1 wound, and the thister also 1 wound on the challenge againts his lord, so that was 3 for me againts whis BSB, standar, avatar of death + number, and losing by one BT died.

Should I maybe ignore his deathstar, and try killing everything else, and use the mask to kill his specters (you think she could)?

W0lf
06-03-2009, 10:53
Just do -D3 M on the grave guard and ignore them all game. They will be like M2, march block them and laugh away.

Then get the bloodthrister into ghouls with hound/crusher support and kill of the blocks asap. Remember his main abaility is to raise ghouls, thus kill the units while they are small and his power dice will be largely wasteful.

Preacher
06-03-2009, 12:32
Agree with wolf.

Slow down his death star and get rid of the ghouls first. All the while use your flamers to shoot at the Grave Guard. All those flaming attacks will negate the regen. Then he will spend a good deal of PD trying to keep the Grave Guard alive which should allow to chew through the ghouls easier.

Then either ignore the death star and just claim table quarters for the win or send crushers and thirster into flanks/rear.

If your deployment is good, you shouldn't have too much trouble.

kaintxu
06-03-2009, 15:09
Really nice the idea of not facing deathstar untill the end, the problem, is if i leave the mask runing around alone, it will be an easy target for some magic or banshee shout right?

W0lf
06-03-2009, 15:13
Screen her?

Her abilites dont need LoS.

Ive faced this kind of list a million times (one of my mates ran similar) and its really very easy to beat. The GG are just ignored/avoided untill like 5th/6th turn where they end up with units in all fronts. Another way to destroy this list is charge crushers into front and allocate all attacks at vampires, shouldnt be too hard to kill of the hero lvl ones with merely regen helping out.

That will cripple his magic enough to ignore it.

Arguleon-veq
06-03-2009, 15:49
The suggestions you have been given should work fine.

If you REALLY want to fight that unit head on for some reason though,

Pop the Masque and the Thirster in. Take the Lords challenge with the Masque, even with Flaming Sword he only does 1 wound. You put 4 Attacks on the Wight BSB, you put 3 on the +1CR Vamp. You should off them both fairly easily. Averging 3 wounds on the Wight, 2 on the Vamp. No Saves. So he has static 5 +1 wound for 6 vs your 5 wounds. You lose by 1. You shouldnt really lose anything on your instability test there. Next turn your Thirster finishes his other Vamp and hacks down a load of Graveguard.

If you hit the rear of that unit with the Thirster though you are looking at 6 kills, winning by 4. For 10 Dead GG in 1 turn.

kaintxu
06-03-2009, 18:27
Well i guess I'll go with that, im still thinking if hiting deathstar or just everying else.

An other thing is he tends to leave the deathstar behing against armys such as mine, so if that happens i guess ill go againts ghould quickly.

How to deal with 6 Vampire bats? its 12 wound he can respawn easily, so cheesee :D

Neknoh
06-03-2009, 19:20
Nom on them with a bloodthirster, you clock the first one and then you allign as you see fit, your thirster should pop them in a round I reckon, if you do worry, add the Mask in as well and you're basically guaranteed a poping of them.

Another option is to put a round of flamers on them and then watch him waste dispell dice trying to raise them and not the ghouls or graveguard

apbevan
06-03-2009, 21:43
How to deal with 6 Vampire bats? its 12 wound he can respawn easily, so cheesee :Dseriously? The Fel Bats don't have any SCR and not a stat higher than 3. If your Daemons are having troubles wit Fel Bats then perhaps you should just... no wait haha good one you totaly got me with that joke. :eek:

kaintxu
07-03-2009, 03:21
I know this should go on rules, but can you explain how do you aling unit when charging skirmirshers, or in this case a flying unit?

Neknoh
07-03-2009, 06:48
You charge
Move into contact with a model
Then you yourself alligns your unit as long as it is in contact with the model you clocked

kaintxu
07-03-2009, 14:24
So can i end facing wherever i want?

Imagin I charge him from the left, so im facing right, but i want went i charge end up facin left, is that posible?

Neknoh
07-03-2009, 14:29
Nopes, since you should still be in contact with the unit in a reasonable way, no yoyo-ing as far as I am aware.

Whitesox
07-03-2009, 20:38
The suggestions you have been given should work fine.

If you REALLY want to fight that unit head on for some reason though,

Pop the Masque and the Thirster in. Take the Lords challenge with the Masque, even with Flaming Sword he only does 1 wound. You put 4 Attacks on the Wight BSB, you put 3 on the +1CR Vamp. You should off them both fairly easily. Averging 3 wounds on the Wight, 2 on the Vamp. No Saves. So he has static 5 +1 wound for 6 vs your 5 wounds. You lose by 1. You shouldnt really lose anything on your instability test there. Next turn your Thirster finishes his other Vamp and hacks down a load of Graveguard.

If you hit the rear of that unit with the Thirster though you are looking at 6 kills, winning by 4. For 10 Dead GG in 1 turn.

well the only model accepting challanges in that unit should be the grave guard champion or the wight to save him from the bloodthirsters attacks and that gives you some added CR due to wounds inflicted, which leaves the rest to attack back against the thirster... your thirster will end up dying against them before being able to kill them all either due to wounds or cr but it should take a few (it'll take on average 3 rounds to kill the lord with the thister due to the book remember this) also the lord knows a whole lore? if he has beasts be aware of bears anger

anyway the vc should be able to raise enough models to protect the flanks of the GG to prevent a mulitple charge

W0lf
07-03-2009, 22:54
seriously this is a pretty easy MU for the daemons.

kaintxu
08-03-2009, 21:18
What is a MU? multiple unit?

Whitesox actually the thister is going to kill all your characters if you dont challenge him, so that would make up for the points

W0lf
08-03-2009, 21:57
Match up.

As in i think the daemons have an advantage.

Bodysnatcher
08-03-2009, 22:21
Run a denied flank tactic, bulldoze down one side of the battlefield. Herald of Tz must stay with one of the horror units to boost their save - either take Lore of Metal (for frying his deathstar and yoinking expensive magic items) or Lore of Death (sometimes doing one wound is all you need -and the no. 6 spell will do horrible things to those ghoul units should they be nearby - not to mention any raised Zombies).
Bloodthirster should go into the flanks of units and target magic users. Masque should be used to slow the graveguard down. Run flamers with the masque as a screen and also to harass and marchblock units.
Your plaguebearers can act as the ultimate anvil - always go for the No. 1. LoN spell for the Herald (so smelly even vampires complain!). Use sundering on the Necromantic lore.
Fleshhounds are for killing things that get annoying - hunt down the wraith unit and start taking apart the ghouls before they can get repaired.
The ideal is: Hold the deathstar away and deal with the rest of his army, then throw the thirster and juggers at it - if set up correctly he should only have +3SCR and you'll have at least +2SCR.

kaintxu
09-03-2009, 08:29
I get the Idea.

The thing is having time in 6 turns to do so many things because he is going to deploy back, and stay back the whole time, so it takes at least 2 turns to just throw off one unit of ghouls. And he will be charging horrors with his dam bats, which might be weak, but horrors are too :p

I guess I'll try doing th denied flank tactic, but each damm ghoul unit is only 88 points, its like nothing, plus bats pretty much the same

Bodysnatcher
09-03-2009, 19:01
Your thirster, masque and flamers are fast. Very fast. And your daemon units should roll right over any blocking ghouls - double up if possible.
Aim for destroying units where possible so he has to throw more dice to create units rather than doing the easy invocation.
Do you take any magic standards for the units?

kaintxu
10-03-2009, 19:42
Mine? no none has any, just the BSB herald of nurgle standar of sudering

Bodysnatcher
10-03-2009, 21:51
That's a shame - icon of eternal virulence is real handy against undead (admitedly not quite as much fun without the tallyman, but still evil).