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View Full Version : If the new Guard is actually broken, are we allowed to complain?



kultz
07-03-2009, 01:43
This question came to me a few days ago, as threads debating whether or not the new Imperial Guard would be broken.
That topic rapidly boiled down to the simple fact that since we don't know the point costs, we cannot accuse things of being too powerful.

Yet, among that thread, and among others, there is always someone touching the idea of "because Guard was so neglected, it deserves to be overpowered!".

I began to feel troubled.

To me, logically, a Codex should atleast try to be fair. Balanced to the best of its (however terrible, as some consider) designers.

It is inevitable that when the Codex first hits the shelves, it would be powerful just by the merit of being new and unexpected.

What worries me is that, if the Codex: Imperial Guard is actually all that people have feared it to be. A powerful, undercosted, easily abused, unstoppable orgy of armour and bullets.

Would we actually get to complain?

I fear that there is a potential that the vast majority of Warseer could fall to the emotion-based argument mentioned above, and quickly attack anyone who does not dance in celebration of the new Codex.


This is not a discussion about whether the Codex would be broken.

This is a discussion about, in the case of the Codex being broken, would there be some sort of illogical Guard-Love bandwagon led by some extremists that goes around and brands anyone who things negatively of the Guard codex as ...In the lack of a better word...Counterrevolutionary.

Just my curious two pennies.

fluffstalker
07-03-2009, 01:49
I doubt it will be an orgy of armour and bullets. Unless it was a Slaneeshi based Renegade army. :P

But yes, IF there are legitimate issues and you can give good reasons for why they are such, then go ahead.

Im a guard player and Im scared of people bashing it because its new, check my thread, but if people bash it because of an obviously broken choice, though I cant see any right now, then yes. I will also point out issues If I see them because I dont want people accusing me of winning through listhammering rather than strategy, and I would want any opness in the codex recognized and fixed ASAP.

Hicks
07-03-2009, 01:52
Of course you can complain if the codex is blatantly overpowered against every other army. I know I won't be happy if my Steel Legion now comes with an autowin button. Balance is a very important issue and complaing and eventually quitting the game is your only way to make GW produce a better game.

Nym
07-03-2009, 01:56
Beware though, the Imperial Guard Lobby group on Warseer is frightening... Just look at the Guard Tactica ! 600+ pages ! I wouldn't risk having them against me... :(

dugaal
07-03-2009, 01:56
"If the new Guard is actually broken, are we allowed to complain?"
No; you are NOT Allowed, the police will be out to arrest you for arguing over a board game. :wtf:

Seriously, a struggling company in a recession, about to unleash a horde army which, by many respects is a flagship of the imperium, and by extension, GW's products? You can bet that codex creep shall be present.

The Ork codex was long overdue, and there are lots of people saying that it it overpowered; in time, after the cries of 'finally it's out!' it becomes just another product in the line, jumped on by many players; many of which don't have that 'revolutionary' attitude.

Sorry If that came off too rudely, I guess my answer is that if it winds up being overpowered, those who abuse it will be in the same boat as dual lash enthusiasts or what-have-you; Those who have no interest in IG who have to face a broken list will have to deal like everyone else.

Znail
07-03-2009, 02:07
IG havent been neglected anymore then other armies and its not realy a reason anyway to overpower an army.

pwrgmrguard
07-03-2009, 02:15
Yes they have, no 4th edition codex, horrible transports and overcosted infantry, they have most certainly been neglected.

The SM and derivative chapters have had 5 codecies released since the last guard codex, DA and BA, BT and two base SM codexes.

The only race more neglected are the Dark Eldar, and they haven't been updated since long past due.

The orks had been neglected and now they are the best in 40k arguably, I for one (as a guard player) hope that one of the most ignored races gets its just desserts.

Znail
07-03-2009, 02:30
Yes they have, no 4th edition codex, horrible transports and overcosted infantry, they have most certainly been neglected.

The SM and derivative chapters have had 5 codecies released since the last guard codex, DA and BA, BT and two base SM codexes.

The only race more neglected are the Dark Eldar, and they haven't been updated since long past due.

The orks had been neglected and now they are the best in 40k arguably, I for one (as a guard player) hope that one of the most ignored races gets its just desserts.

5 armies have had 5 codex in between them since the previous IG codex and now IG gets a new one, thats exactly as expected. And you probobly counted the BA WD update as a new codex too. I also hope they get what the deserve, a well balanced codex.

starlight
07-03-2009, 02:31
Complaining will not be tolerated! The Warseer Complaints Police will be out in full force and if you complain, we will take your toys away and give them to those poor Dark Eldar players!


Imagine! What would happen if we allowed *you* to complain, then *everyone* would want to complain, *then* where would we be...?:eek: Teh Interwebz would be awash in complaints!:eek: Imagine the wailing and gnashing of teeth that would ensue!:eek: People would spend *days* doing nothing but complaining about how powerful their little toy soldiers are/aren't and *nothing* would get done!:eek:

For the love of workplace bandwidth, please think of your poor, suffering bosses with their rising costs and plummeting productivity...how will he afford DOWII for his kids if you burn up the company profits with bandwidth overages?

Think of the children... :(



...or not and go see Watchmen...


...actually between the nerd-gasms that Wolverine and Star Trek will be inciting that week, the IG book may go unnoticed...:p

Cane
07-03-2009, 02:32
As a Guard player who fielded the three major incarnations of the IG back in third edition (armored company, deathworld, and the standard list) I'm glad much needed tactical flexibility has been implemented. For lack of better words the Imperial Guard gameplay then was pretty lame especially compared to the other armies since the Guard lacked effective mobility and seemed to be penalized more than any other force for trying to move at all.

Having more fast attack options, tanks that can finally move and shoot (I had gotten out of the hobby a little after the Necron plastics were released), and more answers to MEQ opponents sounds incredble by comparison to the older rules.

All that jazz being said, there's no right for an army to be cheesed. However the Guard still seems to retain the same major disadavantage as they always had, close combat. Get into their lines and your forces will look like Spartans out of the movie "300" and use terrain to your advantage and hopefully get some shots to the squishy rears that all IG tanks seem to require.:chrome:

olmsted
07-03-2009, 02:49
as long as double lash oblit lists are in the chaos codex then no. you can never call the guard codex broken.

Warforger
07-03-2009, 02:57
Yet, among that thread, and among others, there is always someone touching the idea of "because Guard was so neglected, it deserves to be overpowered!".


I lol'd Guard are all right, there is not enough neglect to say that, why don't they try to compare there arguments to Dark Angels, Dark Eldar and Necrons? Its incredibly weak, models are not a true argument since most of the Guard models are fine as is, rules wise there solid, I mean go to the Nid player to complain how the best armor save your swarm can get is a 4+.


Yes they have, no 4th edition codex, horrible transports and overcosted infantry, they have most certainly been neglected.


Go complain to a WH player and tell him that..... or better yet a DH player, and tell him your codex is more neglected, going by your logic DA deserve it more.

Age is nothing, effectiveness is everything

victorpofa
07-03-2009, 03:14
This is a discussion about, in the case of the Codex being broken, would there be some sort of illogical Guard-Love bandwagon led by some extremists that goes around and brands anyone who things negatively of the Guard codex as ...In the lack of a better word...Counterrevolutionary.

Da Comrade. KGB will be visitink you momentarily to discuss with you anti-IG propaganda you are sayink. Is for your own good. :evilgrin:

Seriously though, Warseer is full of Guard crazy people who represent a very vocal minority. I have come to like the Guard through their artillery in Dawn of War, and the novels, but hate Doctrines (gasp!!) so I look forward to the new codex, and hope whining is minimal. At the same time real issues should be voiced since GW uses such a closed process they are too close to the product, and can't see all the flaws.

backslide
07-03-2009, 03:21
well I look forward to the prospect of guard being cheese for change!

devolutionary
07-03-2009, 03:21
Da Comrade. KGB will be visitink you momentarily to discuss with you anti-IG propaganda you are sayink. Is for your own good. :evilgrin:

We will? Huh, that sounds like more effort than we'd typically put in to anything...

Anyway, yes, definitely complain. Just make it well thought out, rational, and reasonable. Complaining is fine, being a bastard is not.

holmcross
07-03-2009, 03:53
Just as long as you're aware that complaining serves no practical purpose other then blowing off steam.

And be aware that for every legimite complaint, there are ten uninformed and poorly thought-out ones. Please don't add to my made-up statistic.

Devil Tree
07-03-2009, 03:53
Can you complain about IG? :confused:

Thatís and interesting question to ask. Especially for an army that for years has been marginalized by the company, massacred on the table top and ridiculed in the fluff. I say complain all you like. In the end it will be all you can do, as we drop the hammer on your hapless forces. At long last, we will finally have our revenge!

BWAH HA HA HA HA!!! :evilgrin:

Sorry, I just had to get that out of my system. :angel:

Codsticker
07-03-2009, 03:58
What worries me is that, if the Codex: Imperial Guard is actually all that people have feared it to be. A powerful, undercosted, easily abused, unstoppable orgy of armour and bullets.

If that is the case then I may just have to use my Daemonhunters more often. :)

pwrgmrguard
07-03-2009, 04:35
5 armies have had 5 codex in between them since the previous IG codex and now IG gets a new one, thats exactly as expected. And you probobly counted the BA WD update as a new codex too. I also hope they get what the deserve, a well balanced codex.

1 army (SM) has had two codicies with no intervening guard codex, and three others were addons to that codex. Codex wise that looks like neglect to me.

There are certainly codexes with less effective lists, but nids have nidzilla if they wish to run it, DA can go with the wings which i find extremely hard to defeat with a reasonably balanced guard list,

DH and WH are actually downright bad...worse than guard, and necrons have a hard time too, so when they are updated, they should recieve competitive codicies as well.

I said they were neglected, not the most neglected, that title belongs to dark eldar.

Most of this feeling comes from an ineffective codex (3rd ed round one) being replaced with another ineffective codex (3rd ed round two). Sure there are lists like droptroop plasma spam and mega gunline which fare decently, but balanced lists for guard did not perform as well as balanced lists for SM as an example, at equivalent points.

This is all relative to my experience which is limited, but it is what i have reasoned from my time in this hobby.

If it is cheesy and deserves complaint, I suggest we limit it to an equal level of complaint as anyone has about pie. Which is zero. Because everyone loves pie.

Seriously....

Everything cheesy and broken deserves a proportionate amount of complaint and grumbling, because without complaint and grumbling, how would we determine what is broken and cheesy?

starlight
07-03-2009, 04:37
Woof, woof, baby! :D

Warforger
07-03-2009, 04:43
With orderly unbiased discussion? Complaining to an extent is fine, complaining too much is not, and complaining about a problem that isn't there is even worse.


Most of this feeling comes from an ineffective codex (3rd ed round one) being replaced with another ineffective codex (3rd ed round two). Sure there are lists like droptroop plasma spam and mega gunline which fare decently, but balanced lists for guard did not perform as well as balanced lists for SM as an example, at equivalent points.

And now you know know Dark Angel players feel.


I said they were neglected, not the most neglected, that title belongs to dark eldar.

Yes, but you said that the 2nd most neglected was Guard, which is not really true. Neglected doesn't necessarily mean bad, the SM codex is full of expensive units most of which aren't really that effective, the BA codex is more orderly and most of its units are effective.


There are certainly codexes with less effective lists, but nids have nidzilla if they wish to run it, DA can go with the wings which i find extremely hard to defeat with a reasonably balanced guard list

I find IG in the hands of an experienced player hard to beat too, hell I've never beaten an experienced player with my Blood Angels, even though I even got close once. Currently IG is still a pretty solid build, with 4+ save swarms and crap load of squads and branches from squads, I don't see why IG players can say there even neglected that badly, in fact there more in the middle, which is where you want to be.

pwrgmrguard
07-03-2009, 04:43
Woof, woof, baby! :D

That's my other dog impression.;)

I never said second, I merely implied they were more neglected than others, though there are others more neglected than they.

I agree with the sentiment that a middle of the road in regards to power woudl be best, if all other codexs were equally middle of the road, the problem is certain codexes (Orks, SM, CSM) are much more powerful than others (WH/DH, Crons, DE) and decently better in most cases than others (IG, Tau, Eldar, Nids), and almost every codex has atleast one broken or abusable list (Double Lash, Double Bikerboss, lysanderspam? idk if thats still legal, TripleFalcon, Nidzilla) and other like the IG or Tau can create unbalanced and more competitive list like Plasmadrop Spam or Phish of Phury that are good but not GOOD like the really abusable lists the top codexes have.

I must also admit i started orks after collecting 5k points worth of guard when their new codex came out.

Orkeosaurus
07-03-2009, 05:01
Orks were worse than the guard are now.

I would be very surprised if people didn't complain. Especially since, if the ork codex is anything to go by, 2/3 of the people playing guard after the new codex's release weren't using them regularly before it.

The Gothic Me
07-03-2009, 05:32
I don't think I've seen anyone honestly suggest that guard deserve to be over powered just because up till now they've been neglected (which they have, horribly). Of course we can complain if they are over powered.

That said, from what I've seen, it doesn't look like they will be OP. Competitive yes, but not excessively. Though that's only based on what's been released so far, so I may well be wrong. Knowing GW they may well have left in some exploitable oversight.

Warforger
07-03-2009, 05:39
That's my other dog impression.;)

I never said second, I merely implied they were more neglected than others, though there are others more neglected than they.

I agree with the sentiment that a middle of the road in regards to power woudl be best, if all other codexs were equally middle of the road, the problem is certain codexes (Orks, SM, CSM) are much more powerful than others (WH/DH, Crons, DE) and decently better in most cases than others (IG, Tau, Eldar, Nids), and almost every codex has atleast one broken or abusable list (Double Lash, Double Bikerboss, lysanderspam? idk if thats still legal, TripleFalcon, Nidzilla) and other like the IG or Tau can create unbalanced and more competitive list like Plasmadrop Spam or Phish of Phury that are good but not GOOD like the really abusable lists the top codexes have.

I must also admit i started orks after collecting 5k points worth of guard when their new codex came out.

SM are more middle of the road, where they are is often debated here, are they UP'd, OP'd or balanced? Lysander does not much for terminators anymore, BT can get more terminators+special skills. Falcons with Holo-Fields aren't as effective as they were last edition.

As for the SM, allow me to expand

SM have all these new shiny toys, they have super duper rules! However it all goes down on how to use them, there is no list like double lash in SM, Thunderfires sound nice, but they are the frailest unit in the army and cost the same as 2 speeders. Sternguard sound good but half there rounds aren't that good and there just as frail as tactical marines and cost more. Vanguard sound amazing with there crapload of options and assault from deepstrike, but Vanguard are overcosted, LR Redeemer sounds nice, but then you realize that it has a worser range problem then the Crusader, all TH/SS termi squads seem to be the way to go, but then you have no shooting, your slow and you don't have enough attacks to take on hordes.

laudarkul
07-03-2009, 07:09
Of course you/we can complain if the new guard codex has some units which can make an army lists OP.But only if the complain have some support and not a stupid arguing.But broken:confused:? I think that this is a wrong word when we discussed about guard...

Shangrila
07-03-2009, 08:15
I play guard, alot of guard.(like over 9000!..seriously) I hope this codex fixes my old codexs problems and remains balanced. However to use WW2 online as an example: German players complain the game is "pro allies" since they dont have a fighter that can turn with a Hurricane, this is true.however they do have a FW190 which is the fastest fighter in the game. Fair? No. Balanced? Yes.(even though it shouldnt be faster then the P38 but whatever) Fair and balanced are too different things.

But i must i live with 2 facts:
1 GW is GW and GW will Do what GW wants.
2 There will alot of both new codex "bandwagoners" and whiners regardless.

If its broken that badly, i just wont use those units/lists. Since i usually play a fluffy force(thats right i use ADVISORS!) i will continue to do so. Because if somone really bitches enough ill just use my old codex to beat them.

But obviously if the codex is broken, you can say its broken. this wont stop power gamers form being power gamers or make me stop playing guard, or stop playing you.(if i played you)

I also dont think just because we havent had a codex for a while that this one should over compensate, and that goes for every codex.

Marshal Sinclair
07-03-2009, 10:04
DH and WH are actually downright bad...worse than guard, and necrons have a hard time too, so when they are updated, they should recieve competitive codicies as well.

Did he just say WH are worse than Guard? Has he never seen a Mech SoB list in the hands of an experienced player? No, probably not.

Bunnahabhain
07-03-2009, 10:16
Yes, people can complain, but it will be far better received if you don't go 'waaa, Guard arez all br0kn', but instead say ' Is Guard unit XYZ too powerful?'

I know this from the Orks. A neglected and long underpowered codex, that suddenly got good. Complaining about the whole thing is silly, and moaning that their basic troops are too cheap won't get you anywhere, but nob bikers are fair game.

Guard have long been neglected by GW main- FW have been great, but not at all cheap in point or money- and have a lot of dedicated players who've been learning under an old codex. With a new book, letting us put more, better units on the table, with real mobility, and other strange concepts, there will be quite a few very strong guard players.

Jedi152
07-03-2009, 10:21
I usually would have said no, and gone on a rant about how there are no broken armies, just broken players, but everytime you look at tournament listings and the latest army is 7 or 8 of the top 10 players, something is going wrong....

Hellfury
07-03-2009, 10:26
The difference between whining and complaining is is kneejerk reaction of hyperbole proportions while the other one uses rational logic which can prove its case, respectively.

Many people simply mistake one for the other, in either direction without actually thinking about the matter closely.

There will always be rabid fanbois defending their army's codex no matter if it is broken or not, so you may as well deal with them the best way possible and just ignore them.
They are very much like roaches, you can squish them with the heavy boot [of logic] but they always come back because they lay eggs [called "entitlement"] anywhere they dwell.

Tarquinn
07-03-2009, 10:33
I swear the whining is getting worse with each new codex released... :rolleyes:

I expect death threats and attempted suicides for the next codex.

Fixer
07-03-2009, 11:31
I've never been a fan of the 'no army is overpowered' argument. Throughout all editions there have been armies which have curbstomped others. I'll probably make a thread sometime deconstructing all the strawman arguments in that favour.

I'm also not a fan of the 'Army A has been underpowered for X years, therefore army A needs to be overpowered now to make up for it.' argument or the reverse. A lot of people seem to seeking what I would call CODEX REVENGE. Asking for rules that invert the situation they were in before. Instead we should be looking for all new codexes to be balanced.

Last of all, it's a good thing to note that a lot of the time how things look on paper do not directly equate to how well things play in game and even when you read the stats and work out the maths for how things should perform a lot of people are going to freak out about the unit being massively overpowered or underpowered based on their own perceptions. There were arguments from ork players saying their army was now far too weak after the loss of choppas after all.

Though of course, pretty much everyone in the community realised how game breaking Lash of Submission was going to be. Now everyone has to metagame mechanised lists in tournaments...

In the end, I don't think the guard are going to be that bad. However if they do turn out to be overpowered, yes we should be able to complain. In the end a balanced game and balanced armies mean that it is the better general that wins and not the codex.

For me a fun game is a close game. I'd rather have a match that comes down to the wire and I lose than a match where I curbstomp the opponent and I win. Balanced dexes help this, and that just leaves terrible dice rolls as objects of blame and hatred :)

W0lf
07-03-2009, 11:40
lol go read DE players oppinions on the 7th book being overpowered.

The 6th DE book was almost unplayable and now they have a pretty broken book, yet they defend it for their lives lol :P

Latro_
07-03-2009, 12:17
hmmm from what i'v read of the rumours, the new guard seem much better yes...
But its a sum of all parts thing. Yes every unit it seems has a boost, but pts dictate you wont be getting everything you want in one force.

At the end of the day, most armies will still be based on t3 5sv dudes with flash lights who die in droves to flame an template weapons (which thanks to orks are not a staple park of most armies).

Also when you factor in 5th ed some change make sense, like most tanks are now a13 at the side.. everyone goes into shock! then remember when you assault a tank all hits are at the rear and now the IG tanks are much slower... a winged daemon prince has a much easier job of slapping them in combat then in 4th ed.

its all swings and roundabouts.

Malchek
07-03-2009, 12:24
Well I've been playing Guard for four years and I've been up to the GT Heat 1 for the last 3 years. In my first attempt I was about 4th from bottom...........

In my second attempt I managed to squeeze through to qualify for the final in 39th place or so.

This year I managed 13th....

Do I use a spam army list like drop troop plasma - no I field a balanced list.

Does the fact i came 13th with IG mean they're overpowered? no I was one of the very few Guard players that managed to qualify.

Then thing I've always liked about Guard is that they're not an uber powerful army with OP units - you have to use all the units at your disposal to make a good army and more importantly than anything you have to have experience playing your army against a wide range of opponents. Sure I've refined my army list but I think the reason I've done better and better is because I'm becoming a better player.... and as far as I'm concerned I've been doing it with an IG codex that is by no means as competitive as other codexs.

So, I'd personally just like a new Guard dex that allows versatility in playstyle and army types - because that's always fun and interesting. I'd also like the overall power of the army to be bumped up because it needs it - then playing and trying to win games won't be the uphill struggle it always seems with the Guard dex.

Do I want an overpowered dex with no-brainer choices? NO where's the fun in that!? Do I want a level playing field when facing other armies? Yep ;)

So if it is broken (and I really think we should start worrying about that when we get the new dex and figure out what's really in it with pts costs etc!) comnplain all you like I wont mind - but don't blame me for exploiting it cos that's what's been happening with every other codex that's ever been released and I'm not going to shy away from it when I finally get my turn in the sun lol ;)

Mal ;)

Toomanymind
07-03-2009, 12:33
Hmm, how do you know IG won't turn out like O&G did? Everyone seems to think change = cheese. :confused:

fluffstalker
07-03-2009, 12:47
Because they wanna sell minis. It would incredibly stupid to nerf them as opposed to making them stronger.

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 13:02
I usually would have said no, and gone on a rant about how there are no broken armies, just broken players, but everytime you look at tournament listings and the latest army is 7 or 8 of the top 10 players, something is going wrong....

Not really, actually this phenomenon is easily explained. It's not a matter of "oh my god the new codex is broken!" (because if you notice those players eventually stop fairing so well) It's called Codex Shock. It is because the army is new and people aren't used to dealing against said army in it's new form.

I actually know of people that buy every single army when it comes out and only plays the newest army to keep this Codex Shock advantage.

Also, unless they seriously undercost the guard this time around I've seen nothing that jumps out and says "USE ME" over anything else (Aside from stormies... but that is because a Storm Trooper army is financially easier to collect than the Body Brigade (TM) guard is.).

I'm not seeing anything on the grade of Ork Power, nor Lash capability in the Guard Codex. So no, if what we have seen so far is any indication of the Guard Codex no one should be allowed to whine about getting ownt by Guard players. (First off Guard players typically are better at the game than other army players.. well a certain group that likes Power Armor anyways, second even if the Guard players are given a Balanced Codex I suspect these said guard players will be effectively not Gimped anymore so of course it's going to seem like they are OP. The same thing happens to me when I go from my Tau or Crons over to my BT. It's amazing how much better you end up after playing with effectively one arm tied behind your back so to speak and suddenly your arm is untied and you are able to use it!)

stroller
07-03-2009, 13:27
Just suppose..... the new guard ISN'T broken.... what will we scream about then?

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 13:33
Just suppose..... the new guard ISN'T broken.... what will we scream about then?

They'll scream anyway for at least three months due to Codex Shock.

The Clairvoyant
07-03-2009, 13:33
i don't actually care if the new guard are overpowered. They can give them all terminator armour, lascannons and displacer fields if they really want.
I play for the sake of playing. If i'm hopelessly outclassed by an opponents army, i treat it as a challenge. In WFB, i regularly faced a cult of slaanesh army and that was extremely difficult to face with a vampire army.
In old 40k (i haven't played much new 40k), i'd face that eldar exarch with swooping hawk wings and webspinners and watch it decimate my ork boyz.
Its never put me off playing though.

If the new guard are over the top, i say "bring it on". I'd much rather face a more powerful enemy than me than take on an army i can beat without even thinking about it.
In a friendly gaming group, this is fine. But i get the impression that the over-powered talk is basically restricted to tournament play. The people who take the OTT stuff are the people who care more about winning a tournament than playing a good game. If you go a tourney and you take your nice balanced fluffy list then get massacred by someone with a twin lash/oblit army of doom, you're playing someone with a different mind-set to you. That person is out to win and you're there for the feel of the game. I'd say the tournament scene is not for you. I know its not for me which is why i don't go to them.

Anyway, this was meant to be about IG so let me try and steer this post back to guardsmen again. Ummm, chugga chugga, boooooooooooom!

Eryx_UK
07-03-2009, 13:45
Yet, among that thread, and among others, there is always someone touching the idea of "because Guard was so neglected, it deserves to be overpowered!".


I wouldn't say that the IG are neglected, they are still a very viable army.

Vic
07-03-2009, 13:57
So wait a minute.....this thread is about the potential of the level of whining that may result from the inevitable whining that will result from an as of yet to be released codex of a historically weak army?

I need more coffee, this is deep.......

Fable
07-03-2009, 14:03
Imp Guard may not have had a 4th edition dex, but they got two 3rd edition dexes. If we are to assume that Imp Guard would be overpowered merely because they were neglected (mind you that they will have went less time between their 2nd 3rd edition dex and their 5th edition dex than Eldar or Orks went between their only 3rd edition dexes and their 4th edition dexes) then should we just call codex: Dark Eldar "codex: Armageddon Engine?"

Personally I was afraid of codex SM being vastly overpowered, but my fears were allayed some after seeing the point costs. I'm cautiously optimistic that the same will happen with IG, the great units will cost great points.

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 14:04
So wait a minute.....this thread is about the potential of the level of whining that may result from the inevitable whining that will result from an as of yet to be released codex of a historically weak army?

I need more coffee, this is deep.......

Such is the life of Warseer.

onnotangu
07-03-2009, 14:23
Did he just say WH are worse than Guard? Has he never seen a Mech SoB list in the hands of an experienced player? No, probably not.

I own a mechanized WH list and a Infantry heavy IG list and I'd be afraid to put that mech list anywhere on the table near my IG list.

I really don't care about codex power creep. because I know it drives sales and makes those who feel they have subpar armies happy enough to buy the new units.

right now. I'm eyeing some ogryns at a local store and wondering where I can get a cheap chimera.

MadJackMcJack
07-03-2009, 14:32
Hmm, how do you know IG won't turn out like O&G did? Everyone seems to think change = cheese. :confused:

The only way Guard could turn out like O&G is if they equipped all Guardsmen with harsh language and a t-shirt with a "Kick me" sign on the back and all the tanks turned out to be Minis with cardboard turrets stuck on top.

Yea, I'm bitter.

Ravenous
07-03-2009, 14:36
Guard deserve to be a top tier army after 15+ years of getting nothing but junk. Plus the guys at GW head office have been throwing the quote around that "if you thought orks were bad just wait for guard". Now that could just been GWs over happy rose tinted vision on everything they do and they could think that guard are broken because of their "uber cool new exciting models". Time will tell whether or not I believe them again especially since they mentioned the playtest copy of the upcoming daemonhunters is around.

The way I see it is, as long as the person takes the time to paint 150+ models well, then I have zero complaints about whatever the hell is in it.

Dexter099
07-03-2009, 14:42
The guard codex release means one thing: Dark eldar are coming in about less than a year!!!

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 14:43
Guard deserve to be a top tier army after 15+ years of getting nothing but junk. Plus the guys at GW head office have been throwing the quote around that "if you thought orks were bad just wait for guard". Now that could just been GWs over happy rose tinted vision on everything they do and they could think that guard are broken because of their "uber cool new exciting models". Time will tell whether or not I believe them again especially since they mentioned the playtest copy of the upcoming daemonhunters is around.

The way I see it is, as long as the person takes the time to paint 150+ models well, then I have zero complaints about whatever the hell is in it.

Pfft only 150? Even I have more guard than that!

Ravenous
07-03-2009, 14:47
Pfft only 150? Even I have more guard than that!

Its true, but I figure 150 is the minimum for my obscure standard of not-caring-as-long-as-the-person-suffered-for-months-to-paint-it-sinking-into-madness, clause.

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 14:50
Fortunately it only takes me three hours or so to paint 12 models. (I've perfected assembly line style painting on the sprue) 40 something down... 143 to go.....

at least I finished painting my "Leman Russ" (read Tamiya T-72) I just need the weapon bits for it.

I -might- have a fieldable Body Bag style Guard army done by the time the new dex comes out. But I'm also working on Tau and Necrons....

I also might be a little crazy by the time the new codex comes out. So if you see me frothing at the mouth or something ya'll know why. So many damn minis....

The_Outsider
07-03-2009, 14:53
Little known fact: GW as a whole have made more models and written more rules for IG than any other army - in fact nearly as much as all of the other armies combined.

Cane
07-03-2009, 14:56
Little known fact: GW as a whole have made more models and written more rules for IG than any other army - in fact nearly as much as all of the other armies combined.

You sure you haven't mistaken the Guard for Space Marines? :chrome:

TheEndIsHere
07-03-2009, 14:56
I find it funny how people act how guard is the army that has been neglected the most, but sorry, the psoter who made a comment about dark angels, that cracked me up.

The are a few codex that are more neglected than guard, OMFG we only got 2 codexes 2 editinos ago and none this edition.

Omg, we only ever had one. -.-

But even with that, I don't want Guard to be over powered, but I want them to be above average in strenght. I think you can whine, but don't be an ass about it.

I was SM fanboys to SUFFER!

BUUUT, thats just me...

D-End

SanguinaryDan
07-03-2009, 15:41
The funniest part of this is that if you change a few names it's a very accurate description of the current American political landscape.:D

Regardless, if it's broken and we are again subjected to the dreaded Uber Codex Creep we've got every right to complain. I doubt it will be, but as the players of the game we have a right and duty to point out bits that make the game less fun for all involved.


This question came to me a few days ago, as threads debating whether or not the new Imperial Guard would be broken.
That topic rapidly boiled down to the simple fact that since we don't know the point costs, we cannot accuse things of being too powerful.

Yet, among that thread, and among others, there is always someone touching the idea of "because Guard was so neglected, it deserves to be overpowered!".

I began to feel troubled.

To me, logically, a Codex should atleast try to be fair. Balanced to the best of its (however terrible, as some consider) designers.

It is inevitable that when the Codex first hits the shelves, it would be powerful just by the merit of being new and unexpected.

What worries me is that, if the Codex: Imperial Guard is actually all that people have feared it to be. A powerful, undercosted, easily abused, unstoppable orgy of armour and bullets.

Would we actually get to complain?

I fear that there is a potential that the vast majority of Warseer could fall to the emotion-based argument mentioned above, and quickly attack anyone who does not dance in celebration of the new Codex.


This is not a discussion about whether the Codex would be broken.

This is a discussion about, in the case of the Codex being broken, would there be some sort of illogical Guard-Love bandwagon led by some extremists that goes around and brands anyone who things negatively of the Guard codex as ...In the lack of a better word...Counterrevolutionary.

Just my curious two pennies.

Earthbeard
07-03-2009, 16:44
If it stops the DA whiners for a few weeks, I'll die a happy man.

Angelwing
07-03-2009, 17:00
Complain away. I will carry on using my armies regardless if the complaints are justified or not. I have armies for the long term and have had bad and good stuff added and taken away through each edition. This one will be no different.
What options from the codex I choose to use, good or bad, depend on the army theme and the type of game (friendly or competitive).
If anything, I'll probably put the guard away for a while to avoid the bandwagon.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
07-03-2009, 17:29
I know this from the Orks. A neglected and long underpowered codex, that suddenly got good. Complaining about the whole thing is silly, and moaning that their basic troops are too cheap won't get you anywhere, but nob bikers are fair game.

Wait, what? How is the basic Ork Boy mob any less of a specific unit than Nob Bikerz are? Besides, I'm an Ork player, and I think that Ork Boyz are undercosted. I think the correct complaint is not about Nob Bikers, but about 6 pt Orks.

Anyway, as to the OP's question, whining about how you believe Guard to be broken will be met with derision, as is standard internet practice. However, I would hope Warseer is open to real, constructive debates on game balance... Seems far too few communities are. Just about the only ones I know of that seriously and successfully appraise game balance are the fighting game community, and the Magic community. You know why? They're competitive gamers. They're prepared to say "Card X is crap" or "Move X is crap". And if someone says "Everything has its use..." Then they're shouted down, because of course we know that, and having some situational and marginal use does not necessarily mean something is not horrible.

Anyway, whether Guard are at the top of the codex tier list or not, my Orks will smash them. They'z not beatin' my six point Boyz!

pwrgmrguard
07-03-2009, 17:39
I think guard will be able to beat balanced orks, but nob bikerz are too disgusting to be justified by anything...

The amount of high shot/large AoE weapons the IG will field like HB's and flamers should scare orks... and Leman russes were practically built to kill orks, the Exterminator, Executioner and basic Russ can all take big chunks out of mobs quickly.

Warforger
07-03-2009, 18:21
Did he just say WH are worse than Guard? Has he never seen a Mech SoB list in the hands of an experienced player? No, probably not.

I didn't, I'm not saying that that list isn't viable, in fact that's the point, it is viable, and WH suffer from the same problems as guard, over priced transports etc. what I'm saying is that it is viable and it being old does not necessarily mean every old codex isn't viable.

Znail
07-03-2009, 18:51
Wait, what? How is the basic Ork Boy mob any less of a specific unit than Nob Bikerz are? Besides, I'm an Ork player, and I think that Ork Boyz are undercosted. I think the correct complaint is not about Nob Bikers, but about 6 pt Orks.

Its more accepted to whine about uber units then about basic Troops.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 18:59
Its more accepted to whine about uber units then about basic Troops.

Seconded. Biker Nobs are better than their cost indicate. Boyz at least have some flaw.

Znail
07-03-2009, 19:17
Seconded. Biker Nobs are better than their cost indicate. Boyz at least have some flaw.

Well, I didnt mean that what is generaly accepted is always right. Biker Nobs also have some flaws, they are just diffrent ones then the Boyz. I dont subscribe to the notion that only uber units can be overpowered, cheap units can be too cheap as well. How easy either is to handle varies from army to army.

The_Outsider
07-03-2009, 19:24
You sure you haven't mistaken the Guard for Space Marines? :chrome:

As much as you may joke, if you think about IG get huge amounts of support.

They have more true variants (i.e not just soem different shoulder pads and different logos on guns) of the basic guardsmen then any other foce does of their basic troops, IG pretty much own anything that comes out of FW (and are the first force to have FW stuff made in plastic).

The amount of marine fluff pales in comparison to guard fluff (most marine stuff is only a couple paragraphs long of them turning up and beating down on something).

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
07-03-2009, 19:26
I think Boyz are better than they should be for their cost, plain and simple. But, there are counter-weapons, so it's not the biggest deal. The thing about Biker Nobz is that they're good versus almost everything. There are only a few counter weapons in the game. Now, I am not prepared to make a judgment as to whether Biker Nobz are undercosted. But I know Ork Boyz are. I'm not saying Biker Nobz are fair, but I don't think it's more obvious that they're overpowered than Ork Boyz. People's gut reaction to something that killy is that it must be unfair, but, well... Ok, I really can't say whether Nob Bikers are overpowered or not. But do people think the Blood Angels Death Company is far too good? Think about other super-killy assault units, and how they compare, and even how a Nob Biker mob would fare against its points in Ork Boyz.

Anyway, I really should stop posting about Orks in this thread...

Edit: You can replace my first paragraph with a gruffly and Orkily barked agreement with Znail.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 19:28
Well, I didnt mean that what is generaly accepted is always right. Biker Nobs also have some flaws, they are just diffrent ones then the Boyz. I dont subscribe to the notion that only uber units can be overpowered, cheap units can be too cheap as well. How easy either is to handle varies from army to army.

Bikers flaws are harder to exploit. Both unit are strong. [nobz have amazing survival rate - always in cover, 2 wounds and feel no pain].

And yes, its old 'percived balance vs true balance' problem. As always, better to trust very skilled players than internet crowd.

AmBlam
07-03-2009, 20:07
I fear that there is a potential that the vast majority of Warseer could fall to the emotion-based argument mentioned above, and quickly attack anyone who does not dance in celebration of the new Codex.

Probably, a similar thing happened with the nex Chaos codex. A lot of people tried to reason that becuase imbalanced IW and Deamon princes had gone that the new codex was good. Moreover they said people who did not like the new codex simple wanted to get all the imbalanced things back, which was not true. It took a long time for that myth to be dispelled.

So yes, I think we can expect Bias IG players to rally around an OP codex.

I think this codex will be OP. I think GW can make ALOT of money out of overpowering this codex for a couple of reasons. 1) Few current players. 2) High model count army.

Bye Bye 40k!

Korras
07-03-2009, 20:08
I find it amazing that some people are ALREADY complaining (not just here, but at Bolter and Chainsword as well) about a codex that's not even out yet. sure, we know the stats of the things in there. but, we don't know the point costs yet. we can guess, but there's no way to be sure yet.

also, when it comes out, I'm pretty much expecting quite a lot of people to jump on the 'Codex Guard is overpowered!' bandwagon. it happens with just about every codex I remember. after a while, most people will get off that wagon (some don't..) and adapt. they'll remember that the point of the game is to have fun, and will also develop ways to handle them. it's what happens with every codex.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 20:23
Well, at least IG and Orks deserve to be overpowered. Lets face it, those are most numerous and powerful forces, and in the fluff its constant IG vs Orks bash.

If i would have a choice to make 2 armies above the power curve, it will be IG and Orks.

And i'm Chaos Space Marine player.

Seriously, they deserve that.

The_Outsider
07-03-2009, 20:30
Seriously, they deserve that.

Nothing "deserves" to be overpowered - otherwise why bother playing anything other than (in this example) orks and IG?

It will come down to either 4+ 5+ 6+ or 5+ 3+ 5+.

Mannimarco
07-03-2009, 20:37
the guard have always been the average joe of the 40k universe, the poor schmuck dragged off to basic training and given a lasgun (a glorified flashlight) and told to face auniverse of superhuman killing machines and alien monstosities

looking at some of the new rumours coming out for them yes they are going to be a strong army but not broken, if the whipping boy of 40k starts doing unspeakabel things to every army it faces and seems to win with no effort then yes its broken but it doenst look like it will be

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 20:59
Nothing "deserves" to be overpowered - otherwise why bother playing anything other than (in this example) orks and IG?

Do you understand difference between 'if 2 forces have to be above the power curve, let IG and Orks to be those 2 forces' and 'ig and orks need to be OP!!!'

In a perfect world, every army and unit choice need to be viable. And i stated it numerous times.

And if any army deserve to be op, its IG and Orks.

Depulsor
07-03-2009, 21:09
Well... not very much people play guard... for GW it is really logical to make them overpowered, that way... well... they sell more miniatures. :angel:

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 21:12
most people dont play them becouse they had only few viable builds. Its not fun for most people to play underpowered list. Its not fun to not use your favourite unit.

So most people interested skip guard. simple.

The_Outsider
07-03-2009, 21:20
most people dont play them becouse they had only few viable builds.

I'm going out on a limb here and say that this is probably false, cost (money) would more than likely be a much bigger factor - especially considering a ton of extra bits (like say, special weapons) are sold seperately from squad boxes as metal blisters.


So most people interested skip guard. simple.

That is terribly flawed, i'll let you figure out how much.

Mannimarco
07-03-2009, 21:24
me personally i love my guard army, yeah it was a nightmare painting all that desert yellow until i found out humbrol did it in a spray, now ive got over 5000 points of cadians, reason most people dont play them now is the kill point thing

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 21:52
I'm going out on a limb here and say that this is probably false, cost (money) would more than likely be a much bigger factor - especially considering a ton of extra bits (like say, special weapons) are sold seperately from squad boxes as metal blisters.

That is terribly flawed, i'll let you figure out how much.

Those are the reason why i and some other people i know skip guard. There are other factors.

Ok, in case you cant read.
-few viable builds [alienate people who want to change his playstyles]
-underpowered [alienate people who want to win]
-weak favourite unit [alienate people who like this particular unit]

And answer - i'm wrong that those are reasons that people skip guard ?

This hobby is expensive. But yes, cost and 'i dont want to paint so many models' are issues too.

This does not make my post false.

But i doubt you have enough honour to apologise anyway.

volair
07-03-2009, 22:15
I think Boyz are better than they should be for their cost, plain and simple. But, there are counter-weapons, so it's not the biggest deal. The thing about Biker Nobz is that they're good versus almost everything. There are only a few counter weapons in the game. Now, I am not prepared to make a judgment as to whether Biker Nobz are undercosted. But I know Ork Boyz are. I'm not saying Biker Nobz are fair, but I don't think it's more obvious that they're overpowered than Ork Boyz. People's gut reaction to something that killy is that it must be unfair, but, well... Ok, I really can't say whether Nob Bikers are overpowered or not. But do people think the Blood Angels Death Company is far too good? Think about other super-killy assault units, and how they compare, and even how a Nob Biker mob would fare against its points in Ork Boyz.

Anyway, I really should stop posting about Orks in this thread...

Edit: You can replace my first paragraph with a gruffly and Orkily barked agreement with Znail.

Well yes you can do a simple calculation for Ork Boyz and make a convincing argument that they are 1 point too cheap. In the case of Nob Bikers you can't plug some numbers in a calculator and compare them to other units as easily, because their effectiveness is not just in the numbers, it is in the context of the rules of the 5th edition rulebook (turboboosting, wound allocation, kill points, and objectives being the biggest factors). Having a unit that is worth two killpoints if they are with a warboss, and can themselves kill more than 2 units, or capture an objective, with staggering consistency is very powerful in 5th edition. They are so fast, so resilient, and so versatile, that they very often can kill two or more units, whether they be leman russes or tactical marines, while at the same time taking the entire brunt of the enemies firepower for 2 or more turns. If the enemy opts not to shoot at the nob bikers, then every turn that they are not turbo boosting they will kill at least one unit that cannot fight them off in close combat, and it is almost always the case that the enemy will have many such units. Nob Bikerz are therefore always worth taking in every army, and regardless of what your opponent does, they will almost always give the Ork player an unfair advantage. Seen in that light, one could perceive them as being overpowered, but I cannot provide any proof what so ever.

Lord Raneus
07-03-2009, 22:43
No. :P

When an army that had as many problems as Orks and Guard finally gets their time in the sun, just scrunch up and take it for a while before you start complaining; let them have their fun. :D

Nkari
07-03-2009, 23:00
No you may not!




;)

Mannimarco
07-03-2009, 23:27
for to long the guard have been mocked, now that they may be getting good people want to complain about them being broken?

very well: to all those non guard players who wish to join us, you may, but we will remember your previous disdain for the hammer of the emperor

Havock
08-03-2009, 00:00
Beware though, the Imperial Guard Lobby group on Warseer is frightening... Just look at the Guard Tactica ! 600+ pages ! I wouldn't risk having them against me... :(

Yes, and we know where you live!

Imperius
08-03-2009, 00:16
Im an Imperial Guard player myself, and it is guarenteed to be broken if the rumours are true. You could legally field 9 Leman Russ Demolishers, and 36 Mortars with Pie Plates.
The 9 Demolishers will inevitably have: Demolisher Cannon, 2 Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Autocannon, Hunter-killer Missile, and the weird thingy infront of the tracks.

Your 36 Mortars will hail smoke grenades to protect your demolishers, then lay waste to people that arent even in line of sight. The devestation they cause make the Chaos Space Marines looks like fluffy bunnies.

And we havent even gotten to the Fast Attack... sheesh.

3 Hellhounds or 3 Variants with new super plasma weapons either killing Orks by the dozen or frying the Eldar like an egg.

If you feel like it, Sentinles will be even MORE powerful. They already are a thorn in your enemies side. With more armour and possibly new weapons what do you think?

'Platoon Choices' I heard hints of a Rough Rider Platoon found here
http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.ca?do=Individual&code=99060105145&orignav=9 Now imagine so many hunting lances that you are physically not capapble of killing it...

Now I gotta go, but I will harp on how strong my army is later.

Marshal Sinclair
08-03-2009, 00:24
That's fine Imperius, if you're playing a 20,000 point game. :rolleyes:

Warforger
08-03-2009, 00:24
Actually the 9 Leman Russ thing hasn't been confirmed, besides that would cost so much you wouldn't even be able to use that in a normal game.

Vaktathi
08-03-2009, 00:28
Actually the 9 Leman Russ thing hasn't been confirmed Indeed, I'd be surprised if it was actually included at this point.


besides that would cost so much you wouldn't even be able to use that in a normal game. Ah, but 6 wouldn't be out of the question :D 3 35man platoons (105 infantry) with 6 russ tanks and some command stuff for 1750 would be...silly. (which is why I would hazard a guess the squadron rules won't make it in)

Marshal Sinclair
08-03-2009, 00:30
The Codex must have been finalised a long time ago, as it's due to be released in 2 months (May, right?). Takes a very long time to print off and distribute that many books. I'd hazard a guess that most of the current rumours are spot on this close to release.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 00:38
good excuse to re-release the tank company formation though, more money for gw

rough rider platoon could just be an excuse to make an attilan themed army

Ravenheart
08-03-2009, 00:40
The Codex must have been finalised a long time ago, as it's due to be released in 2 months (May, right?). Takes a very long time to print off and distribute that many books. I'd hazard a guess that most of the current rumours are spot on this close to release.

That's true.

It's also true however, that about 70% of the unit costs and lots of special rules (or lack thereoff) are still unknown, so saying that the IG codex will be 'broken' is neither appropriate nor possible.

But people will complain no matter. In fact, they allready do!

Marneus Calgar
08-03-2009, 00:50
Im an Imperial Guard player myself, and it is guarenteed to be broken if the rumours are true. You could legally field 9 Leman Russ Demolishers, and 36 Mortars with Pie Plates.
The 9 Demolishers will inevitably have: Demolisher Cannon, 2 Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Autocannon, Hunter-killer Missile, and the weird thingy infront of the tracks.

Your 36 Mortars will hail smoke grenades to protect your demolishers, then lay waste to people that arent even in line of sight. The devestation they cause make the Chaos Space Marines looks like fluffy bunnies.

And we havent even gotten to the Fast Attack... sheesh.

3 Hellhounds or 3 Variants with new super plasma weapons either killing Orks by the dozen or frying the Eldar like an egg.

If you feel like it, Sentinles will be even MORE powerful. They already are a thorn in your enemies side. With more armour and possibly new weapons what do you think?

'Platoon Choices' I heard hints of a Rough Rider Platoon found here
http://ca.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.ca?do=Individual&code=99060105145&orignav=9 Now imagine so many hunting lances that you are physically not capapble of killing it...

Now I gotta go, but I will harp on how strong my army is later.

I agree, those 9 Demolishers, 3 hellhounds, 36 mortars, and those hundreds of troops are going to dominate any army in a 1850 point game. ;)

ehlijen
08-03-2009, 00:57
As a guard player myself, I do not think the IG (or any other race) deserves to 'rule them all' just as repayment for a long neglect.

DarkMatter2
08-03-2009, 01:06
People need to be clear that the "squadron" thing is only for normal Leman Russ Battletanks, and will most likely make the codex.

You could field say 3 LRs and 2 LRDs, but not 9 LRDs.

Wolflord Havoc
08-03-2009, 01:08
I find it amazing that some people are ALREADY complaining (not just here, but at Bolter and Chainsword as well) about a codex that's not even out yet. sure, we know the stats of the things in there. but, we don't know the point costs yet. we can guess, but there's no way to be sure yet.

also, when it comes out, I'm pretty much expecting quite a lot of people to jump on the 'Codex Guard is overpowered!' bandwagon. it happens with just about every codex I remember. after a while, most people will get off that wagon (some don't..) and adapt. they'll remember that the point of the game is to have fun, and will also develop ways to handle them. it's what happens with every codex.


Does this not happen every time a Codex comes out? ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
08-03-2009, 03:01
If the new Codex is broken, yes we are allowed to complain. I can sympathize with players who had bad Codices, but I absolutely refuse to bow to the notion that I should feel guilty and be willing to and be cheerful about losing games due to GW's exuberantly profit-based incompetence at balancing lists.

Thank you and good bye.

Sabotage!
08-03-2009, 06:44
As a guard player of multiple years (Since 2002), who has one apocalypse size force, and is working on an armored company and a second force (about 9000 point total for all three), I will say that I want a balanced and fair codex, most important to me is that it allows me to play fluffy and somewhat competitively at the same time while allowing a lot of options to represent different types of regiments. Currently I think the guard codex is pretty poor (not horrid as some may say), but as other codices have been updated the guard codex becomes very out-dated for the modern playing atmosphere, and there are many units or abilites that are all but worthless or literally do nothing (Priests, Die-hards,the bionic unit upgrade) and many units are overcosted (a guardsman does not equal an ork in point cost, but mainly I'm looking at advisors here). The codex needs a good update, but not a complete overhaul.

To answer the question about complaining I feel that if there is something that really is unbalanced in the new book, individuals should complain about it, however they should complain in a constructive way in an appropriate forum (not online forum per say, but if they took the conversation to say Tactica Imperial Guard or a Sci-fi log for warseer sake, it would be inappropriate).

Don't get me wrong, i want a strong codex, but do I want a codex that is easy to exploit (Double lash, etc) and has units/abilities that are simply unfair? Hell no.

laudarkul
08-03-2009, 07:20
Don't get me wrong, i want a strong codex, but do I want a codex that is easy to exploit (Double lash, etc) and has units/abilities that are simply unfair? Hell no.

Perfect said...
My main problem will be the points cost of the vehicles...I mean I hope to keep it like in fluff...Cheap and reliable...A rhino cost 35 points so a chimera should cost the same and so on...

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 13:46
a chimera is superior to the rhino, the rhino is just a delivery system for its passengers, a chimera can provide some good fire support for them with its multi laser and heavy bolter (new turrets like the autocannon and heavy flamer will just make it better)

remember that the rhino used to cost somthing like 50pts, now its 35

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 13:58
a chimera is superior to the rhino, the rhino is just a delivery system for its passengers, a chimera can provide some good fire support for them with its multi laser and heavy bolter (new turrets like the autocannon and heavy flamer will just make it better)

remember that the rhino used to cost somthing like 50pts, now its 35

But theres the thing, Guard dont have access to a cheap and reliable transport. If we want to transport we will either have the slow Chimera, or the Expensive Valkyrie. The Rhino is 35 points since it only does 1 thing, transports marines fast.

If you transport a guard unit with a Chimera moving 12" a turn, its doing a rhino's job while paying for extra.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 14:08
its paying for a heavy bolter (thats worth at least 10 points on its own, and a multi laser, a 3 shot s6 weapon) id like to see a price drop as much as the next person but not to the same level as the rhino, people would only complain about the guard being broken even more

doesnt the chimera have better armour than the rhino as well? a rhino moves in, drops its troops then just sits there firing its storm bolter, a chimera moves in, drops its troops then opens fire with a multi laser and a heavy bolter and has a half decent armour value, the chimera is worth more than 35pts

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 14:17
its paying for a heavy bolter (thats worth at least 10 points on its own, and a multi laser, a 3 shot s6 weapon) id like to see a price drop as much as the next person but not to the same level as the rhino, people would only complain about the guard being broken even more


Oh no, im not saying it should. I was just pointing out that Guard dont have the option that marines have. The Rhino is an incredibly useful machine.




doesnt the chimera have better armour than the rhino as well? a rhino moves in, drops its troops then just sits there firing its storm bolter, a chimera moves in, drops its troops then opens fire with a multi laser and a heavy bolter and has a half decent armour value, the chimera is worth more than 35pts

But no more than 55, especially with Side armour 10

The Rhino has better side armour, no real shooting to waste and 3 doors. The Chimera has shooting to waste and only a single door on the rear.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 14:29
55 sounds fair, fingers crossed that we get that, especially with the rumoured armoured fist platoon

colmarekblack
08-03-2009, 17:00
Whilst I hate codex-creep, I believe the Imperial Guard deserve a fairly strong codex. It'll make up for the rules neglect we Guard players have suffered with over the last 3 editions.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 17:09
but we cant drop down to that level: we deserved a good codex cos we've been ignored for to long, just imagine what the new DE codex will look like, do they deserve an unrealistically strong codex just because they have been stuck with 2nd ed codex?

no a codex should represent the army and not be good "cos we need/deserve it", the new codex will do that and going by the rumours will not be broken

Karnstein
08-03-2009, 17:17
Whilst I hate codex-creep, I believe the Imperial Guard deserve a fairly strong codex. It'll make up for the rules neglect we Guard players have suffered with over the last 3 editions.

That kind of argument is rather odd... "we XYZ have suffered from abuse&neglect from ZYX for years, so we deserve a payback"... isn't that the same wording, just using fillers for "guard" and "lash-spam/holo-falcons/ass-rending-cannons". And wouldn't that kind of an argument sounds rather "silly" in the real world? "back in the kindergarten days we were beaten up every week, so now in highschool it is our right to bully other guys too"..come on folks...

Wanting to have a competitive dex is a just cause.
Wanting to have a more than competitive dex, because the last one was (sensed) a rather bad one, is only asking for revenge and unjust.

Marshal Sinclair
08-03-2009, 17:18
This is why I think Codex Creep is a good thing. An army is weak towards the end of it's life, then it gets redone as a strong book, which gradually gets weaker as other books are released. In 5 years it gets a new powerful book and it starts over. If the release schedule was fair on all armies, and more people where loyal to their armies (rather than jumping on the new book bandwagon), this system would be fine, if you ask me.

colmarekblack
08-03-2009, 17:30
That kind of argument is rather odd... "we XYZ have suffered from abuse&neglect from ZYX for years, so we deserve a payback"... isn't that the same wording, just using fillers for "guard" and "lash-spam/holo-falcons/ass-rending-cannons". And wouldn't that kind of an argument sounds rather "silly" in the real world? "back in the kindergarten days we were beaten up every week, so now in highschool it is our right to bully other guys too"..come on folks...

Wanting to have a competitive dex is a just cause.
Wanting to have a more than competitive dex, because the last one was (sensed) a rather bad one, is only asking for revenge and unjust.

That wasn't what I was saying. I didn't say Guard deserved an OP codex just a strong and competitve one. Last thing I want is Guard to have a cheese options that puts in the Lash-spam/holo-falcon category

Karnstein
08-03-2009, 17:38
Kay, my fault... the "it will make up..." part was misleading for me. So we're in the same boat. Guards deserve a good dex for sure, like anybody else.

Good in my definition is a dex, without useless units and no-brainer combinations, outmatching anything else in the same dex. Mechanised IG, horde IG and hybrid-IG should be playable on the same rather same level.

Laser guided fanatic
08-03-2009, 17:56
If the Chimera is 55pts it's hardly an improvment ok it has toned down the ridiculousness of its previous points cost but afterall there are only guardsmen inside it, it should be rhino price!

Karnstein
08-03-2009, 18:06
If the Chimera is 55pts it's hardly an improvment ok it has toned down the ridiculousness of its previous points cost but afterall there are only guardsmen inside it, it should be rhino price!

you mean guardsmen or troopers... 35pt would be underpriced imo, that's less than a RBack.

Mannimarco
08-03-2009, 18:15
If the Chimera is 55pts it's hardly an improvment ok it has toned down the ridiculousness of its previous points cost but afterall there are only guardsmen inside it, it should be rhino price!


rhino price would be broken, look at it! a multi laser and a heavy bolter for 35 points (lets say the HB is worth 10, it is when bought as a heavy weapon) that means you are saying a transport with a pretty good infantry support weapon and half decent armour is 25 points?

we are not looking at whats in the chimera, we are looking at the chimera itself! theres no way that thing should cost 35 points "after all there are only guardsmen inside it"

how about loading it up with ap3 stormtroopers? still only worth 35pts? how about i take a daemonhunter force and jump some GKs in it? still only 35 points?

the price should go no lower than 55, dont look at what it carries, instead look at what it does on its own

Imperius
08-03-2009, 18:29
I really hope they don't over-power the Guard. It's already a competitive army in a good players hands but for begginners.... You suffer loss after sometimes humiliating loss.
Take this as an example (me) :
Christmas, battleforce and a few guys! yay! 500 points.
0 Wins, 1 Draw, 6 Losses

Few months later, 1000 Points!
2 wins, 0 Draws, 9 Losses

Next Month! 15,00 Points!
4 Wins, 2 Draws, 5 Losses.

Please note, I started Warhammer 40,000 in December.

Marshal Sinclair
08-03-2009, 18:31
Next Month! 15,00 Points!
4 Wins, 2 Draws, 5 Losses.

Please note, I started Warhammer 40,000 in December.

Started in December and already have 15,000 points of Guard? There have not been enough days since December to assemble that many Guardsmen!

40kdhs
08-03-2009, 18:40
Yes, you are allowed to complain because it's part of your FREE SPEECH. Let the world hear your voice. :)

volair
08-03-2009, 19:16
I really hope they don't over-power the Guard. It's already a competitive army in a good players hands but for begginners.... You suffer loss after sometimes humiliating loss.
Take this as an example (me) :
Christmas, battleforce and a few guys! yay! 500 points.
0 Wins, 1 Draw, 6 Losses

Few months later, 1000 Points!
2 wins, 0 Draws, 9 Losses

Next Month! 15,00 Points!
4 Wins, 2 Draws, 5 Losses.

Please note, I started Warhammer 40,000 in December.

They are not a competitive army in the slightest as they are now; It seems inconceivable to me that a person could perceive them as being competitive.

Znail
08-03-2009, 20:40
They are not a competitive army in the slightest as they are now; It seems inconceivable to me that a person could perceive them as being competitive.

The current codex may not be the best one but its quite possible to win games or even tournaments with it. 40k isnt so unbalanced that its only one army that can win and IG has the tools needed to have a chance to win. You just have to work a bit harder.

SisterMordagg
08-03-2009, 20:43
Yes they have, no 4th edition codex, horrible transports and overcosted infantry, they have most certainly been neglected.

The SM and derivative chapters have had 5 codecies released since the last guard codex, DA and BA, BT and two base SM codexes.

The only race more neglected are the Dark Eldar, and they haven't been updated since long past due.

The orks had been neglected and now they are the best in 40k arguably, I for one (as a guard player) hope that one of the most ignored races gets its just desserts.

To answer the OP, based on this reply alone...

You will not be allowed to complain.

Warforger
08-03-2009, 20:58
^ Read my replies and others after that, Guard's situation isn't as bad as he portrays it.


Yes, you are allowed to complain because it's part of your FREE SPEECH. Let the world hear your voice. :)
'
Actually, if it goes against Forums rules and regulations you can't complain.

Imperius
08-03-2009, 22:03
Started in December and already have 15,000 points of Guard? There have not been enough days since December to assemble that many Guardsmen!

I put the comma in the wrong spot. 1,500

SisterMordagg
08-03-2009, 22:35
I hate this free speech argument when related to private groups. Although it's appropriate for a group to allow a great deal of speech, they are under no obligation to maintain language they do not like.


Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Extensive case law has extended the "Congress" element to cover all forms of government.

Note GOVERNMENT. A private group, e.g. Warseer, can and will, prevent the speech they dislike.

This is why Warseer is not a cesspool- because the Inquistion takes their name seriously.
They will crush you like a bug if your activities disagree with the standards they have set- decency, courtesy and actual argument.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-03-2009, 02:12
Besides, it's not like Warseer is populated entirely by (yes, this is the official title) United Statesians. Though some often forget...


Yes, you are allowed to complain because it's part of your FREE SPEECH. Let the world hear your voice. :)

Yes but as always with free speech, just because you can doesn't mean you should (http://www.demotivateus.com/posters/suitability-demotivational-poster.jpg).

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 02:23
To address the original topic, I play a Warhammer Fantasy daemon army. I've played a pure-daemon list in the Hordes of Chaos, which was widely regarded as perhaps the suckiest list in Warhammer.

So noone should regard my daemons as cheesy because I earnt these stripes, dammit! Right?

In my (very real) experience, if the army is overpowered, you will be considered a cheesemonger for playing it.

Dangersaurus
09-03-2009, 02:36
Besides, it's not like Warseer is populated entirely by (yes, this is the official title) United Statesians.
No, it's not. It's a Menckenism (also a made-up term), rarely used until recently when it became something of a meme. I'd call it slang but it's not even that.

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 02:49
You complain, you die, you fail to salute, you die, you run out of ammo, you die, please read the Infantryman's Uplifting Primer before asking stupid questions XD

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-03-2009, 03:41
No, it's not. It's a Menckenism (also a made-up term), rarely used until recently when it became something of a meme. I'd call it slang but it's not even that.

My teacher told lies! Lies I tell you!

Oh wait, I shouldn't have expected any better. Damn.

RichBlake
09-03-2009, 04:29
I think there is a difference between "complaining" and "disagreeing with".

Complaining implies simply stating dislike something. There needs to be no logical basis for you to complain. I can complain that the weather is crap. I do not expect my complaint to be heeded and God (or Gods) to say "Opps, sorry Richard!" and change the weather.

However if you disagree with something it's usually for a reason. Since this is the Internet(s) there will be some reasons better then others.

If you disagree with Unit X because you got your ass kicked last game, then thats complaining. If you think Unit X was designed wrong because of X, Y and Z then that is disagreeing.

If you have a disagreement with the design of a Guard Unit or Vehicle, and can post that disagreement in a polite, logical and well written manner then regardless of whether I concur I would respect your views.

If you post "OMG vote in the poll, is Guard overpowered?" and the two options are "YES!" or "No, in fact they are weak!" then you will not have my respect, only mockery.

zeep
09-03-2009, 04:40
I, for one, welcome our new guard overlords. ;)

DarkMatter2
09-03-2009, 04:47
What is it with all this Guard codex cutesieness?

Of course you can complain if the Codex is OP.

Guard players aren't small children or mentally challenged.

What I hope more than anything that is codex does is end this sort of notion that the Guard needs to be handled with kids gloves, or that Guard is somehow a more "noble" army because it is underpowered.

Yeah, I want the Guard to be hated. I want people to whine about it. I want there to be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Guard has the reputation of being an army for "nice guys" in the most condescending and flaccid meaning of that phrase. When people hear you play Guard its suddenly as though you recently lost a relative.

Dangersaurus
09-03-2009, 05:42
Guard players aren't small children or mentally challenged.

I think the fear is that if the codex is overpowered, that is exactly what sort of player base the IG will attract.

Of course, there will be a corresponding drop in Ork players.

:ducks:

fluffstalker
09-03-2009, 06:17
Ahahah. Well put saurus. Thats what my other thread was all about- good, honest mud slogging Imperial soldiers such as myself being confused with the bandwagon jumpers. The horror.

Chem-Dog
09-03-2009, 07:11
Yes they have, no 4th edition codex, horrible transports and overcosted infantry, they have most certainly been neglected.


Oh how the memory dims......The IG had a 4th edition Codex (the one we have at the minute) JUST BEFORE the release of the 4th edition.


1 army (SM) has had two codicies with no intervening guard codex, and three others were addons to that codex. Codex wise that looks like neglect to me.

OK no Intervening codex, but that's introducing a pretty big exception to the basic premise, the Marines get a release right along with the Game's release -fair enough, it's the firm's flagship range- so one codex per game edition, same as the Guard.



Does the fact i came 13th with IG mean they're overpowered? no I was one of the very few Guard players that managed to qualify.

Hate to say it but there's probaby a little bit of the curve-ball effect, the IG perform badly at tourneys so they quickly get factored out of an optimised army's consideration so they are faced with the IG they actually don't know what to do them....


Little known fact: GW as a whole have made more models and written more rules for IG than any other army - in fact nearly as much as all of the other armies combined.

For this Codex of since Inception? Because the former is a lot harder to believe than the latter.



Anyway, the OP is a moot point, the IG will not be broken.

Marshal Sinclair
09-03-2009, 07:40
For this Codex of since Inception? Because the former is a lot harder to believe than the latter.

Well lets see.

2nd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Catachan.
3rd Ed Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Lost and the Damned
IA3 Drop Troops
IA4 D99s
IA5/6 Siege Regiments
IA6 Traitor Guard

2nd Ed Cadians
2nd Ed Mordians
2nd Ed Praetorians
2nd Ed Tallarns
2nd Ed Valhallans
3rd Ed Cadians
3rd Ed Catachans
Vostroyans
Steel Legion
Death Korps
Elysians
Traitor Guard

I know some of those are FW, but that's OK as FW is just a sub-unit of GW anyway. Yes, they have had more seperate model lines than anybody else, and almost as many lists as Marines. Doesn't help though if all the rules have sucked since 2nd Ed.

Dangersaurus
09-03-2009, 07:52
Well lets see.

2nd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Catachan.
3rd Ed Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Lost and the Damned
IA3 Drop Troops
IA4 D99s
IA5/6 Siege Regiments
IA6 Traitor Guard

2nd Ed Cadians
2nd Ed Mordians
2nd Ed Praetorians
2nd Ed Tallarns
2nd Ed Valhallans
3rd Ed Cadians
3rd Ed Catachans
Vostroyans
Steel Legion
Death Korps
Elysians
Traitor Guard

I know some of those are FW, but that's OK as FW is just a sub-unit of GW anyway. Yes, they have had more seperate model lines than anybody else, and almost as many lists as Marines. Doesn't help though if all the rules have sucked since 2nd Ed.
I've got the Chapter Approved 2003 sitting here, and it's got Gaunt's Ghosts, Elysians, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Death Korp of Krieg and "Cityfight Guard" as separate army lists for 3rd edition as well as the Ork Hunters you have already listed. I never realized until recently just how many army lists GW put out during 3rd...

Vaktathi
09-03-2009, 08:11
Well lets see.

2nd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Catachan.
3rd Ed Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Lost and the Damned
IA3 Drop Troops
IA4 D99s
IA5/6 Siege Regiments
IA6 Traitor Guard

2nd Ed Cadians
2nd Ed Mordians
2nd Ed Praetorians
2nd Ed Tallarns
2nd Ed Valhallans
3rd Ed Cadians
3rd Ed Catachans
Vostroyans
Steel Legion
Death Korps
Elysians
Traitor Guard

I know some of those are FW, but that's OK as FW is just a sub-unit of GW anyway. Yes, they have had more seperate model lines than anybody else, and almost as many lists as Marines. Doesn't help though if all the rules have sucked since 2nd Ed.


Indeed, since 2nd Ed, the Imperial Guard did have a lot of lists and model lines, but the lists (with the exception of the 2E guard list and the blackbook 3E list in relation to the other blackbook lists and missions of the time) were all sub-par at best. Furthermore, IG haven't had any list updating or additions (aside from FW stuff) in 6 or 7 years, with all of those 3E lists being overwritten by the IG codex at the tail end of 3E.

Bunnahabhain
09-03-2009, 11:14
And The Imperial Guard Armoured Company ( chapter approved) and armoured Battlegroup ( FW).

Quality of the lists is what matters, not quantity. And not changing the core rules, and codex design framework around the list is also helpful.

x-esiv-4c
09-03-2009, 12:21
This happens everytime on Warseer.

When a new codex is announced there is interest, 3 months prior to release, the rumors are flying about, people get unsettled about the PowAr-levAl of the new army. The codex is released and 120 threads a day show up on warseer claiming the new codex to be Fromage-supreme.

Fast foward 2-3 months, everything is back to normal.

Karnstein
09-03-2009, 12:26
I think the fear is that if the codex is overpowered, that is exactly what sort of player base the IG will attract.

Of course, there will be a corresponding drop in Ork players.

:ducks:

depends on the "most cheesy list" IG can field with the 5ed dex. But I don't think IG can ever beat orks in terms of cheese per dollar. One of the most brutal lists for orcs is ultra cheap.

Let's say you trade the AoBR SM for the AoBR orks... and you aim for the following:

WB, he's in the box..just give him a bike
BM, buy one or convert him from the second WB
10 Nob-Bikers, you have 10 nobz...you only need 10 bikes
60 Boyz, 40 of them are in the box
4-6 kopters, all in the box
6-9 kans, just convert them...even GW did that...

This army is rather cheap to get (esp. if you're lucky and get some bikes from ebay for a steal) and it works rather well. You can't beat that cheese/$-ratio with IG, unless IG turns out to be twice as cheesy as orks.

So I don't think we will see an huge rise of powergaming IG players. Even if IG turns out to be a top tier army and a nobrainer against nob-biker lists, they will still be rather expensive.

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 14:26
Fast foward 2-3 months, everything is back to normal.
It does happen a lot, but that doesn't mean that the army list isn't necessarily overpowered - once again, you can look to the Daemons in Warhammer, which are (perceived as) so broken that some tournament organisers are actually handicapping Daemon players and giving them lower points allotments.

Jedi152
09-03-2009, 14:52
This happens everytime on Warseer.

When a new codex is announced there is interest, 3 months prior to release, the rumors are flying about, people get unsettled about the PowAr-levAl of the new army. The codex is released and 120 threads a day show up on warseer claiming the new codex to be Fromage-supreme.

Fast foward 2-3 months, everything is back to normal.
This is why GW and many of the rumour people on here are reluctant to reveal things.

RCgothic
09-03-2009, 15:16
Codex: Orks is currently most powerful.

Therefore to balance the game every codex from now on, IG included, should aim to be as close to Codex Orks as possible without overshooting it.

Every new codex deserves to be a top-tier codex. No Codex deserves to be in 1st place.

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 16:03
Codex: Orks is currently most powerful.

Therefore to balance the game every codex from now on, IG included, should aim to be as close to Codex Orks as possible without overshooting it.

Every new codex deserves to be a top-tier codex. No Codex deserves to be in 1st place.

This is a possibility. In Warhammer, Vampires and Daemons showed a marked power advantage, and Dark Elves seemed to match reasonably well, so people assumed this was the new "power level" all army books would match. Then Warriors and Lizardmen came out and neither seemed to get close.

The problem with this system is that if you do have a codex that "blips" ahead of the other ones, then you have to then match all later codecies to that, then if any of them are more powerful than Orks, you have to push it forward, etc. End result is Codex creep and GW gets accused of a blatant money-grabbing exercise whereby they make each Codex more powerful than the last.

Codex creep is somewhat inevitable anyway. If you take an army and start from stratch, you playtest it against current armies. If you balance it so the new army wins about 50% of the time in the hands of experienced generals, you might think that the job's a good un. The problem is that when it is released and people really take it to town and become really proficient with the new army, one would expect that 50% ratio from the beginning to rise.

Voodoo Boyz
09-03-2009, 16:29
No you're not allowed to complain.

"Just use tactics" and you can beat them. LOL

Blinder
09-03-2009, 19:33
No you're not allowed to complain.

"Just use tactics" and you can beat them. LOL

Well, if that's the actual problem, then no, no complaints. OP'd cheesy insta-win units are fine targets for complaints and discussion, but one of the biggest problems with any change like a codex release (or patch to a PC/console game) is that all of a sudden something shows up that can do all manner of unspeakable things to pre-change builds and tactics and draws a huge amount of flak even though there are many perfectly reasonable ways to counter it that already apply to other factions (the big fear of ap3 stormtroopers dropping in to say 'hi' to marine squads- are plasma stormies currently some horrid brokenness? What do you do if a drop-pod lands instead of stormies and out pop some marines with similar marine-killy potential and thicker armor?).

So, if things like the hellhound variants end up costing 50 points each, coming in trios and can operate independently, complain away! If Executioners get to take extra-cheap plasma sponsons "because they already have the generator blahblahblah" and for 5 points can count everything as twin-linked, complain away! If the codex just turns out to be *strong* and slaughters you, try to play a few more games against the person and figure out why it's killing you and if you can do something about it (or could tweak your list and do something about it, though we shouldn't be getting anything a generalist list can't handle that we wouldn't already have). If you make a bunch of changes and still can't get a fair fight, then you might have something to ask about and can consider complaining if it's because of the same unit even if you load up on your list's counter to that unit type.

Captain Micha
09-03-2009, 19:42
Well, if that's the actual problem, then no, no complaints. OP'd cheesy insta-win units are fine targets for complaints and discussion, but one of the biggest problems with any change like a codex release (or patch to a PC/console game) is that all of a sudden something shows up that can do all manner of unspeakable things to pre-change builds and tactics and draws a huge amount of flak even though there are many perfectly reasonable ways to counter it that already apply to other factions (the big fear of ap3 stormtroopers dropping in to say 'hi' to marine squads- are plasma stormies currently some horrid brokenness? What do you do if a drop-pod lands instead of stormies and out pop some marines with similar marine-killy potential and thicker armor?).



But it's okay for marines to kill marines! Only marines should be able to kill marines! :D

pringles978
09-03-2009, 20:54
meh. complain all you want, makes no odds to me. i will be running the same guard army i have done for a long time, with a few changes to accomadate the new points cost or dropping something that has been made obselete (unlkely) if i have the pints to spare after the recount i might treat my lads to a shiny new toy or two if i like the model, but it will more or less stay the same.

i imagine most current collectors will do more or less the same. anyone is entitled to complain, but will have little ground to do so in my case. i got all this whining when the new sm dex came out, and OH MY GOD, SALAMANDERS! BROKEN! BANDWAGON etc, even though i started them in armageddon...

rule 35: if it exists, there is whinging on the internet about it...:evilgrin:

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 21:55
But it's okay for marines to kill marines! Only marines should be able to kill marines! :D

They do? Most of the time I find that marine armies clash and after furious combat maybe you kill one... There's a TSOLR comic about that but I'm too lazy to find it...

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 22:34
IMO no matter how good they make guard, I'm still gonna blast 'em to bits.

The_Outsider
09-03-2009, 22:42
Little known fact: "tactics" and "strategy" are game winners, not things as blatant as 6 point boyz or 4 point guardsmen.

(Hmm, shouldn't I get banned for this post?)

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 22:43
Did you just use the words "tactics" and "strategy" in conjunction with 40K??

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 23:03
Did you just use the words "tactics" and "strategy" in conjunction with 40K??

Yeah but of course he meant Ork related tactics, 'Shoot da big stuff first'; 'Make it dead', etc.

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 23:09
The only tactic for any self-respecting Ork Warlord is "CHARGE!!", you must be thinking of sneaky Blood Axe gits...

AmBlam
09-03-2009, 23:12
Little known fact: "tactics" and "strategy" are game winners, not things as blatant as 6 point boyz or 4 point guardsmen.

(Hmm, shouldn't I get banned for this post?)

Sometimes thier is skill in 40K, just not very often. If you combine over-powered units with a well tailored list you auto-win.

TheDarkDuke
09-03-2009, 23:25
if the whole logic is for neglected armies to get stronger codexes when they are released then im scared as hell of a new dark elder book:eek:.

we'll see though. i really dont think GW has ever gotten a horde army right in either 40k or fantasy they are either to cheap or to expensive points wise for what they do.

looking at orks in 40k they are probably to cheap for what they do on they're basic troops while orcs in fantasy are to expensive for what they are able to do. all just my opinion though

Thornz
09-03-2009, 23:26
You will have a right to complain ...

IN JULY!

Once you have worked out what is actually OP in the new Dex.
Once you have had some actual games agains the new Dex.
Once we know the points cost for all the units.
Once the new/unknowen factor has worn off.
Once we know what units & SC have the best synergy.

Then, and only then will you have the right.

Untill that time all this whining is all for nothing and needless, uninformed conjecture.

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2009, 23:32
But ... we aren't complaining, we are discussing the acceptable whining contingency parameters! This is an internet forum! We can complain about not having anything to complain about!

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 23:45
Or we can complain about how only 2, maaaybe 3 or the new shadowsword/stormlord variants are ever useful or don't have an equivalent thats better

Thornz
09-03-2009, 23:47
We can complain about not having anything to complain about!
Ahh that is very true

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 23:56
I think that when the plastic Warhound Titans come out they'll be over priced, yeah we have nothing better to complain about other then the unsure future

Imperius
09-03-2009, 23:59
I think that when the plastic Warhound Titans come out they'll be over priced, yeah we have nothing better to complain about other then the unsure future

THINK? Whew, some people are not paying attention to what GW releases... I KNOW it will be overpriced.

Silvarius
10-03-2009, 00:08
Well even more over priced then the other super heavies, I'm just about willing to buy them at the moment, but anymore will be too much....

Znail
10-03-2009, 00:33
Well lets see.

2nd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Guard.
3rd Ed Codex Catachan.
3rd Ed Armageddon Ork Hunters.
Lost and the Damned
IA3 Drop Troops
IA4 D99s
IA5/6 Siege Regiments
IA6 Traitor Guard

2nd Ed Cadians
2nd Ed Mordians
2nd Ed Praetorians
2nd Ed Tallarns
2nd Ed Valhallans
3rd Ed Cadians
3rd Ed Catachans
Vostroyans
Steel Legion
Death Korps
Elysians
Traitor Guard

I know some of those are FW, but that's OK as FW is just a sub-unit of GW anyway. Yes, they have had more seperate model lines than anybody else, and almost as many lists as Marines. Doesn't help though if all the rules have sucked since 2nd Ed.


I've got the Chapter Approved 2003 sitting here, and it's got Gaunt's Ghosts, Elysians, Savlar Chem-Dogs, Death Korp of Krieg and "Cityfight Guard" as separate army lists for 3rd edition as well as the Ork Hunters you have already listed. I never realized until recently just how many army lists GW put out during 3rd...

So, not only are IG not realy neglected, they may even be the least neglected army of them all! This does make IG fanboys who have posted in this thread look rather bad.

Silvarius
10-03-2009, 00:38
Yeah, have sympathy for those poor (not money wise) American Dark Eldar players, who, unlike us Brits, have to MAIL ORDER there OFFICIAL army, wait I mean Raid Party!!!

Znail
10-03-2009, 01:00
Yeah, have sympathy for those poor (not money wise) American Dark Eldar players, who, unlike us Brits, have to MAIL ORDER there OFFICIAL army, wait I mean Raid Party!!!

Online stores are usualy cheaper anyway, so what is the problem? I just mail ordered myself some models and I dont feel sorry at all for doing it :cool:

Silvarius
10-03-2009, 01:07
True, I love your signature by the way, it's what I tell to my Chaos Marines before battle :D

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 01:27
So, not only are IG not realy neglected, they may even be the least neglected army of them all! This does make IG fanboys who have posted in this thread look rather bad.

Lets consider first that the cheapest Guardsman army (1 HQ and 2 troops) is around $200OZ (compared to say space marines which is $90OZ) and then add the price of those books.

remember each Imperial Armour book costs around $80, also that metal and Resin armies do nothing for most players.

Its not neglected as such, its just that we were constantly given things that we either couldnt afford or didnt need.

a Basic METAL Imperial Guard army costs around $300

Znail
10-03-2009, 02:21
Well, if you dont like the idea of lots of cheap (points wise) models that takes time to paint and cost a bit more cash, then why arent you playing SM's? Alot of people seems to take pride in having a more difficult to assemble army, but at the same time resent it. If you dont like your current army, then pick an army you do like instead.

Its like a girl falling for a guy and then set out to change him into how she realy wants him to be instead of finding a guy that are the way she wants from the start.

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 03:19
Well, if you dont like the idea of lots of cheap (points wise) models that takes time to paint and cost a bit more cash, then why arent you playing SM's?

Because i dont play space marines, of course, i play guard.


Alot of people seems to take pride in having a more difficult to assemble army, but at the same time resent it. If you dont like your current army, then pick an army you do like instead.


Thats a nonsensical arguement. I play because of the character of the army. I prefer guard because they have a soul. Space marines are too dull.

also, your just not listening to the point and arguing a technicality. Guard players are already penalised simply for playing guard by requiring a larger amount to be paid for the most basic army.

our plastics are fine, but what about the metal regiments? Or the Resin Regiments like my beloved Krieg?

Guard were given things like Vostroyans (all metal) and IA rulebooks (massive, Heavy, pricey and unofficial) and marines get given things like all plastic variants (black templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) and variant codices, all totally official.

Guard havent been given anything useful until this codex.

If people complain about it broken, then they can all they want. I will put my army (which has costed $1000 for 1000 points, all painted of course) and my Primer on the table and tell them to deal with it like Guard players were forced to for 2 Editions.

Warforger
10-03-2009, 03:32
All Blood Angels Sprues actually are metal, including the Furiso.

I agree they need to get a lil' cheaper, maybe make a box of nothing but Guardsman and sell it for less. If you thought the Cadian swarm players had a hard time, then wait till you see the Vostryan or Valhallen and the other metal regiments, maybe easier due to the models already being set and no real modelling required (just gluing).

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 03:38
Ive been doing some Guesstimation about the new codex based on rumours. Ive found that if i want to make My Praetorian army (Extensively converted from Cadians) i will need to buy 6 Battleforces, 10 Ogryns and 6 Ratlings for 2000 points.


Thank god for Maelstrom Games, i have to say that. In Australia that would set me back a pretty freaking huge amount.

Silvarius
10-03-2009, 03:40
The only army people can complain against are Gnoblars, because they are nigh on impossible to beat........ Argument over? *cheers from the invisible crowd* I think so, thank you. Oh and you complain about your army being super expensive, and you believe that justifies the army being broken? I'm sorry but that makes no sense.....

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 04:12
The only army people can complain against are Gnoblars, because they are nigh on impossible to beat........ Argument over? *cheers from the invisible crowd* I think so, thank you. Oh and you complain about your army being super expensive, and you believe that justifies the army being broken? I'm sorry but that makes no sense.....

Did i say it justifies it being broken?

Lets consider it like this.

Broken is all in the context. if the Guard is at the power level of Orks, it could be seen as broken by all armies except orks.

So its all about the power level an army brings to the table depending on his opponent.

So now, we can consider the current guard codex.

From the perspective of the current Guard codex, and the early 3rd edition Guard codex ALL the other armies are broken.

As a Guard player we have had to play against enemy forces much more potent than ours for 2 editions.

I dont think Guard or broken, nor should they be. But if people COMPLAIN about them being broken, i cant change it, so they can deal with it like i did.

Anyway, i only take fluffy armies, which doesnt necessarily mean weak, but you wont find horribly unfluffy and potent combos in my lists.

Silvarius
10-03-2009, 04:27
I agree in some ways, but Guard aren't ALWAYS the weakest and many armies face the Guards situation, I can speak on behalf of the Chaos forces and thugh we rarely, if ever, complain about it, when SM are revamped they are always an improvement on Chaos. But then again people can only comment on armies they have long term experience with, I have about a 1&1/2's worth of experience with Guard and can say that all in all they areabout equal to the other armies I've played, I suffer heavily against Orks if my Ordanance is off, but then thats like with many armies, my Guard work well against necrons however, who have a much smaller number, and i can overpower with pure wait of las shots.

Also back to your point of your armies costing a lot, and that you thought it was unfair, fluffy armies are always more expensive than normal armies, you can take a normal Guard army for the same price as most of the other armies.

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 05:32
I agree in some ways, but Guard aren't ALWAYS the weakest and many armies face the Guards situation, I can speak on behalf of the Chaos forces and thugh we rarely, if ever, complain about it, when SM are revamped they are always an improvement on Chaos. But then again people can only comment on armies they have long term experience with, I have about a 1&1/2's worth of experience with Guard and can say that all in all they areabout equal to the other armies I've played, I suffer heavily against Orks if my Ordanance is off, but then thats like with many armies, my Guard work well against necrons however, who have a much smaller number, and i can overpower with pure wait of las shots.

Are you saying Chaos is as weak as the current Guard codex?

Ive been playing Guard for a long time now and really, there is no comparison.

If you want a game of basically no fun at all, you shoul try guard vs Nurgle Daemons. Thats horrific, that is.

Chaos forces are very potent at the moment, they could be fluffier, but hell, so could any army.

I dont know of any army list weaker than guard with the very possible exception of Daemon hunters, but even then they can have their moments if used right.



Also back to your point of your armies costing a lot, and that you thought it was unfair, fluffy armies are always more expensive than normal armies, you can take a normal Guard army for the same price as most of the other armies.

Howso?

souljaking09
10-03-2009, 05:36
No, stop bithcin and play hard. I've even heard of necrons placing in tournaments.

Znail
10-03-2009, 06:34
Because i dont play space marines, of course, i play guard.But maybe you shouldnt force yourself.


Thats a nonsensical arguement. I play because of the character of the army. I prefer guard because they have a soul. Space marines are too dull.
What is the soul? The minis? If you like the army, why complain? And shouldnt the SM players complain about having a dull army?


also, your just not listening to the point and arguing a technicality. Guard players are already penalised simply for playing guard by requiring a larger amount to be paid for the most basic army.

our plastics are fine, but what about the metal regiments? Or the Resin Regiments like my beloved Krieg?
How about Red Scorpions? There is plenty of FW stuff for SM as well. Infact, SM and IG are the two with the most stuff there by far. Question is if that is someone to complain about or not. I am pretty sure alot of people playing other races think its unfair.


Guard were given things like Vostroyans (all metal) and IA rulebooks (massive, Heavy, pricey and unofficial) and marines get given things like all plastic variants (black templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels) and variant codices, all totally official.Are any variant chapter all plastic? As far as I know so are all variant bits in metal, with some general bits like arms and weapons in plastic. I havent checked out all of them ofcourse, so if someone know a variant chapter with all plastic, please speak up.


Guard havent been given anything useful until this codex.Thats a matter of oppinion. Its not a lack of quantity alteast as there are quite alot of IG models and books produced over the years. Infact SM and IG are well ahead of the other armies.


If people complain about it broken, then they can all they want. I will put my army (which has costed $1000 for 1000 points, all painted of course) and my Primer on the table and tell them to deal with it like Guard players were forced to for 2 Editions.

Expect alot of whining and complaints then if you want others to deal with it the same way you do.

Vaktathi
10-03-2009, 06:45
So, not only are IG not realy neglected, they may even be the least neglected army of them all! This does make IG fanboys who have posted in this thread look rather bad.

Until you realize that all but two of those army lists were...mediocre *at best* (also, look at all the SM variant lists during the same period of time, it's drastically larger) and the number of model ranges retired, as well as the period of time since the *last* update, I don't think it's all that off to say that IG were neglected. Every list that came out was "oh, toss this onto an IG squad for an exorbitant amount of points!" or "give them this useless option!" such as the original DKoK list's "fearless" in CC ability from the armageddon book.

Also, much of that stuff is from Forgeworld, something that seemingly half the players have an unreasonably puckered bum about, drastically mitigating how much the stuff can be used.

Lord Solar Plexus
10-03-2009, 07:32
Well, if you dont like the idea of lots of cheap (points wise) models that takes time to paint and cost a bit more cash, then why arent you playing SM's?

Don't be silly, Znail. You know it is better to think and speak afterwards. We like the Guard as such, as an idea, as a concept. We don't want to play another army with a different philosophy and concept and models behind it (or perhaps we do own a 2nd and 3rd army). And yet, there are obvious and objective drawbacks to playing Guard.


But maybe you shouldnt force yourself.


But instead be forced to play something else? Jesus Herbert Christ, why didn't that occur to me! Good idea!



If you like the army, why complain?


Because it isn't such a simplified thing as 'the army'. There are many different aspects to consider. It is possible to like one aspect and to hate another, you know. Really, this is all blatantly obvious. Can I like the army and hate the prices (not saying I personally do)? Of course, perfectly logical. You ignore the obvious differences on purpose to make a point it seems.



Expect alot of whining and complaints then if you want others to deal with it the same way you do.

We're all looking forward to that for a change.

Solar_Eclipse
10-03-2009, 10:03
I was going to write a response, but i will simply say that Lord Solar Plexus is right, and i agree with him.

Bathfinder
10-03-2009, 10:47
I think the guard could use a little broken-ness, as long as it is broken in the right places.
Why do I think that? Well, my opinion is that there are too few guard players and too many playing space marines. (I am just comparing these two, because SM has become the standard for humanity, and I think that guard should be the standard and SM a small elite force. Wouldn't it be cool to have guard in the starter box instead of SM?)

For that to happen it could use a little brokenness to get peuple to use them more, as long as the armies that result are still fluffy guard armies, with hordes of soldiers dying by the hundreds etc etc. If it is broken in a way that the guard become too elite-ish, it would be broken in a bad way, but ifa, say, the cost for a regular infantry platoon would be low and cheesy, thus making the humble lasgun-wielding guardsman worth taking, I can live with that.

Sabotage!
10-03-2009, 11:06
Its like a girl falling for a guy and then set out to change him into how she realy wants him to be instead of finding a guy that are the way she wants from the start.

Let's keep personal problems out of warseer please ;)

Sorry i just couldn't help myself.

As a long-term guard player, I think it's safe to say that for a while the guard have been "neglected"(Not in terms of models or alternate lists, but as I believe the other guard players are referring to in terms of competitiveness), as in from 3rd edition onward they really didn't size up to other armies when playing a balanced list. There are a few units in the current codex that are simply unusable, The priest comes to mind (or most of the other advisers for that matter), most of the units are relatively over-priced when compared to other armies, and their are many abilities/doctrines that are either useless or haven't taken much thought into their development (Die-hards is now useless, Hardened fighters costs 15 points to increase 10 Guardsmen's WS by 1 (for a non-CC specialized army), bionic implants costs 20 points to give 10 guardsmen a 6+ invulnerable save, while at the same-time drop troops costs absolutely nothing :wtf: and iron-discipline, a rather fantastic ability costs 5 points per officer).
In my opinion our handicap isn't absolutely horrid (though kill points needs to be addressed, 2 for 5 guardsmen is absurd), but the guard lists since 3rd have always been on the lower-end of the middle tier in terms of competitiveness, and I believe dropped to the bottom tier in 5th as KPs were introduced. I would really like a top tier codex, though as another gentleman on this board put it every army deserves a top tier codex, this go around, where I can play all the units in the book to some effect. I am rather happy with the amount of options in the current codex to represent different types of guard regiments though, and I hope the new codex incorporates this variety in some way.

To conclude my long rant, I will say in terms of competitiveness guard have been neglected in the last decade (though i will say I'm not a competitive gamer and generally only play casual tournaments, and I play guard because I like the fluff and models), however I'm not overlooking the face that we (guard players) are blessed with an amazing model range thanks both to GW and FW. I want the guard dex to be competitive, but I don't want it contain easy to exploit combos (Double-lash, Nob Biker Spam), or be hands-down superior to other codices. In other words the guard codex should be competitive, as should every other codex. So let's see what it's like, and then if there are "guard-lashs" and "nob guards" then yes, by all means complain, but I would not be pleased to see "WTF MATE! I used 2 beat guard evry game, but I lost! Theyz R da cheatz0r!"

Lord Solar Plexus
10-03-2009, 15:09
I think the guard could use a little broken-ness, as long as it is broken in the right places.


Yeah, every army needs a rated break point for balances's sake. I personally think that T3, 5+ Sv, a plethora of flamers and the fact that silencing even an MBT (not destroying it outright!) isn't that hard combined will continue to provide this.