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C-Coen
07-03-2009, 10:33
So, I'm planning to build a undead Chaos army.
Skeleton Chaos Warriors, zombie marauders etc.
However, would it, according to you, be a problem to have 25mm bases on skeletons and zombies? I get the impression there are some advantages and disadvantages, so in the end, it doesn't really matter.

Besides, the rulebook only states "human sized infantry (20mm/25mm bases) = US 1" (or something along those lines). So ruleswise, there doesn't seem to be much of a problem, it's a bit like the 40/50mm monster bases debate.
Just checking to be sure, and "how to avoid problems, if any".

Gazak Blacktoof
07-03-2009, 10:56
If its an undead army most people will expect you to base it on 20mm, if its a chaos army using then most people will expect it to be based on 25mm. It depends which army book you are using rather than the models used.

Some people might not give a damn about which base size you're using so its up to the individual players really. Ask your gaming group if that's where you're using the models if you're playing at a tournament ask the Tournament Organiser.

Neknoh
07-03-2009, 11:01
Or base them on 20mm bases and make custom movement trays to slot into so that they get the same size as 25mm bases when in those.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xbbxbbxbbxbbx
xbbxbbxbbxbbx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xbbxbbxbbxbbx
xbbxbbxbbxbbx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

something like that, X denoting where the tray-bits goes and b where you place the bases

Tizz
07-03-2009, 11:02
To be sure everyone keeps heads from rolling I'd say it's generally better to not change any of the base sizes around for units as it will screw up the math.

W0lf
07-03-2009, 11:04
Going from 20mm to 25mm is fine as it actually disadvantages you.

The other way around is dodgy, this way should be fine thou.

Morthoron
07-03-2009, 11:43
Yeah, I would say to be honest that its actually a disadvantage to you because your units will have to be 125mm wide to get a rank bonus rather than 100m. Thats a big difference when your talking zombies and skellies depend on rank bonus much more than Chaos Warriors.

W0lf
07-03-2009, 11:54
plus it means more models can attack your vampires.

Half the reason wightking Drakenhof is so sick is that you can usually only get 2 models on him (cav +25 mm)

Desert Rain
08-03-2009, 17:53
If you're using the Chaos rules you should use 25mm bases and if you use the VC rules you should use 20mm bases.

Gorknoth
08-03-2009, 18:03
larger base = disadvantage..
bigger means less space, less space means less block will benefit from your generals LD (march allowance to VC) and makes up for a more inflexible army..

Besides I would be bothered :P

danny-d-b
08-03-2009, 18:04
I'm in the same problems- trying to use empire models as woc (festus list)
I'm going to see if I can get my hands on 60 large infantry baces and bluetac the empire to them

not the best looking way round it but gameing wise it works

Neknoh
08-03-2009, 18:29
Bluetac? No, looks wierd. But you could try magnetizing the 20mm bases and sticking them to 25mm bases thorugh use of magnets.

Braad
08-03-2009, 18:35
You have to stick to those bases that are supplied with the original models that go with the rulesset you use. There is no going bigger or smaller.
There is no rule I can point you to for this, since there isn't any, but this is what games workshop tells us and how most people play.

However, if you wish to do something like this for just friendly play at home, then just ask if any of your opponents have a problem with it. Probably not, if you do it for coolness sake.
Just don't show up at tournies...

Neknoh
08-03-2009, 18:42
Especially not with 25mm based zombie screens -.-

Zink
08-03-2009, 18:53
I always thought that GW had a rule that you could base models on larger bases than they came with but not smaller. Am I wrong? Can't remember exactly where I read that now but I think it was in regards to 40k terminators when they came out with larger bases on the newer models.

I make movement trays under license that adapt 20mm bases up to 25mm because that's standard for the game I play now. You can buy them from www.terrainwarehouse.co.uk or from me if you're in North America. I like them because I can still use my models with the original bases and still have them match the 25mm standard I need.

danny-d-b
08-03-2009, 20:19
Bluetac? No, looks wierd. But you could try magnetizing the 20mm bases and sticking them to 25mm bases thorugh use of magnets.

thats the thing- you wouldn't see the blue tac- it would presed betwen the 2 baces!

Znail
08-03-2009, 20:23
40k isnt nearly as picky about bases as WHFB. But its easy to upscale 20mm if needed, just use one of GWs modular movement trays. They come with an edge that you actualy cant use if you have the right sized base as then so would the tray get too large.

But if you only want to play using the WoC rules, then you may as well use 25mm bases from the start.

C-Coen
09-03-2009, 14:39
It's kinda funny to see that some people think I want to put 20mm models on 25mm bases, while others think the opposite.

So I'll try to make it clearer. I want to use the fluff of an Undead Chaos army. For that, I will surely need Chaos models too. But of course, I will use the rules of Vampire Counts.

Now I don't know how you want to get those Chaos Warriors on 20mm bases, but I think that would be pretty hard. From 20 to 25mm wouldn't be a problem, just get either bigger bases or a movement tray. 25mm models on a 20mm base, however, is quite a bit more difficult. Seeing that I play VC, those bigger bases aren't what I want. More attacks against me, even less in return.

So.. what is the problem with that? There isn't a written rule saying I should use the bases the models are supplied with (is there?). And, well, those converted Warriors of Chaos I will use as Grave Guard are supplied with 25mm bases anyway.
In rules, the only is the Unit Strength table, which says 'man-sized models are on a 20mm/25mm base, and have US1.
Besides, I will spend hours and hours converting an amazing looking army portraying the resurrected remains of the horde led by Crom the Conquerer through Sylvania. How heartless would the person be, who wouldn't see those great models, but only looked at the bases, saying: "hmm.. since when are Grave Guard on 25mm bases?"

Urgat
09-03-2009, 14:43
Well, there's no rules, but there's a base chart. Since it indicates which troop uses which base size, I assume it's how it must be done.
Now you're asking for our opinion, well I'll give you mine: I'm pretty forgiving about all the convertion stuff, count as and so on, I'll even welcome most of those, themed armies are cool, and so on. But I wouldn't accept changing bases. It has impacts on the game itself. My characrter can get stuck against one 25mm silly champion and not be able to mow down skelettons next to it if you do that. My rock lobber won't hit as many troops if you do that. I'm not gonna think up all the occurences where it would be advantageous for one or the other side, but the fact is, it changes the effectiveness of the units for better or for worse, depening on what it is facing.
So nope, I wouldn't accept that. I'm currently building a slaanesh DE army, and I'm using demonettes as witchelves. Well I'm putting them on 20mm bases.

The Red Scourge
09-03-2009, 14:54
Theoretically, you could play the game with pieces of paper – I wouldn't, but some people will – as what really matters is the foot print of the unit. Most people have no problems with unit fillers either, and it close to the same thing.

In my group we rarely look on the bases themselves in order to determine base contact. We just use plain common sense instead "Its a 20 mm base, so it is in contact with 3 other 20 mm bases" etc. But there are some who would object – and a 25 mm zombieline on a model/model ratio, would cause me to raise an eyebrow ;)

Zink
09-03-2009, 15:46
I have played with paper tokens. They came in the rulebook back in 3rd ed when I started Warhammer. I still have them and use them occasionally for other board games.

I guess it all depends on the type of people your opponents are. I wouldn't have a problem with minis mounted on larger bases as it is a bit of a negative in melee. But then I'm more for having fun than nagging about small details. I don't think you'll be able to stuff chaos warriors on to 20mm bases. The ones I've seen barely fit on 25mm bases.

Ixquic
09-03-2009, 17:11
Is there anything that actually REQUIRES you to use the bases supplied? I'm not as familiar with 40k but I thought there was some sort of rule that made the bases included with the models mandatory, but fantasy simply had a "Infantry are on 20 or 25 mm bases" one which didn't indicate who was on what.

I've never seen someone with Chaos Warriors jammed onto 20mm bases, but is there anything stopping you except the expectation that they are supposed to be on them?

Hvidponi
09-03-2009, 18:59
25 mm are much better versus template weapons... I would feel like I'm being screwed when my rock lobber hits 12-14 instead of 21 models, if it was at a turney anyways... Now if it was a friendly game, I wouldn't have any problem with it...

Braad
09-03-2009, 19:09
There is, indeed, no written rule. All we got is the bases that are given in the boxes/blisters, so many want to stick to that. Its also what GW tells you to do if you ask them.

However, remember that its just a hobby, and you can do whatever you like. The only thing is, if someone else doesn't like it, it might be a reason for him not to play you. Some people tend to be quite strict about base sizes. Best is just to go ask them. But don't be surprised if you get troubles at tournaments, since some people come there to win, even if they can do that by just pointing out a big flaw and stating that because you got an illegal army, that they just won the game... These people exist.

Other base issue, if you don't stick to supplied sizes: just give your general a 25x2000 base, put him behind your line, and all your units can use his base size.
Bigger bases also extend terror range, or other stuff like that.

The thing about 'bigger is okay, smaller is not' is a 40K thing, and is nowhere related to fantasy.
And when it comes to rules, there is no rule that says you may divert from the bases given to you.
Ruleswise, its a weird thing, and I think they should solve it, but I don't think we can count on that to happen...

If you ask me what I would do: I would certainly allow you to use this army, given your reason!

Hvidponi
10-03-2009, 18:04
If you want to base them on 20 mm bases, it could be possible with bases at the flanks that lets you slide a bit out of the movement tray, and maybe the center base being raise up... I know a man that was able to fit 5 things from the woods on cavalry bases and "rank" (file?) them up... Using mulitple ogre bases with 2-3 men on it would also help you alot...

C-Coen
10-03-2009, 19:38
Hmm.. raising some models a bit could help yes.
Tough it might be hard to do so, I will surely try out 20mm bases before I just put them on the 25mm ones.
Thanks for all the replies so far, it's good to see what various people think, and maybe more importantly: why. This way I might be able to find a solution which covers all the problems caused by different bases.

phoenixlaw
10-03-2009, 20:01
The best solution would be the 20 x 80 regimental bases you can buy from gw. Easier to rank them up then, and I think you'd get them on easy enough

Rioghan Murchadha
11-03-2009, 03:25
There is, indeed, no written rule. All we got is the bases that are given in the boxes/blisters, so many want to stick to that. Its also what GW tells you to do if you ask them.

However, remember that its just a hobby, and you can do whatever you like. The only thing is, if someone else doesn't like it, it might be a reason for him not to play you. Some people tend to be quite strict about base sizes. Best is just to go ask them. But don't be surprised if you get troubles at tournaments, since some people come there to win, even if they can do that by just pointing out a big flaw and stating that because you got an illegal army, that they just won the game... These people exist.
Interesting how you point out that there is no written rule, and then suggest that someone could score a win in a tourney by declaring your army illegal. How does that work if there's no rule?

The BRB states that roughly man sized troops are mounted on 20 or 25mm bases. Nowhere is there a rule stating exactly which infantry uses which base size. I'm pretty sure the main reason that Chaos warriors (who happen to be roughly man sized) and the like use 25mm is because they're beefy models and don't rank up all that well on 20mm bases.


Other base issue, if you don't stick to supplied sizes: just give your general a 25x2000 base, put him behind your line, and all your units can use his base size.
Bigger bases also extend terror range, or other stuff like that.


Hyperbolize much? The same table mentioned above also includes cavalry (mounted on 25x50mm cavalry bases), up to ogre sized critters on foot (40, or 50mm), and larger than ogre sized (any base, no base)

There's your rules for basing right there. If you follow that chart, which incidentally is on pg 71 BRB, there is no way in the fiery depths of hell anyone will be able to call your army illegal.

Znail
11-03-2009, 04:21
There used to be an official table where you could see the exact bases each unit was supposed to use. I cant find it on GW's page anymore, but its alot harder to find stuff like that on the new page. But it may still be around somewhere on it.

Ultimate Life Form
11-03-2009, 04:36
Crom the Conquerer, huh? Like the idea. However, I too advise you stick to VC bases, cuz, as pointed out, it affects the game and at least I would most certainly not like that. Keep cool, however. I have no experience with Chaos models, but for my own VC army, Im doing a block of Orc Zombies. Now Orcs certainly are bulky, and it took a little improvisation, but I managed to put them on 20mm bases. With careful planning and thinking (most importantly, keep the weapons outta way), you can do it!

C-Coen
21-03-2009, 01:06
Got a mail back from WHW.
Copy-pasted both my question and the answer below - and for me, it's good news!


Having plans to convert a new WHFB army, I encountered a problem: the difference of base sizes.
The idea was, to get an army made of Undead Chaos warriors, portraying the resurrected remains of the
horde led by Crom the Conquerer, which is supposed to be destroyed in Sylvania during the Storm of Chaos.
But then I realised my conversions might not be allowed on tournaments.
Because I would use models made from -for the biggest part- Warrior of Chaos models, while using the rules for
Vampire Counts. My Grave Guard, for example, would be made from Chaos Warriors and some Skeleton Warriors bitz.
However, Grave Guard are placed on 20mm bases, while the Chaos Warriors are on 25mm ones.. and
surely are too bulky to put on smaller bases: they simply won't fit!

But when examining, I couldn't find an actual rule which forbids the use of Grave Guard on 25mm bases.
The only related rule I could find was the Unit Strength table, which says:

Roughly Man-sized. Square 20/25mm base. On foot. = Unit Strength 1.

So in terms of rules, there isn't anything stopping me, there actually isn't any difference at all.
In game terms, however, there would be some changes: The amount of models which can attack me
(which could be in base contact), the amount of hits done by templates, and surely some more.
Now I am not, by any means, trying to avoid too heavy losses by templates, or something along those lines,
but I could see opponents having problems with those differently sized bases.

So at last, I come to my actual question: for your tournaments, does it matter whether "roughly man-sized,
US 1 models on foot" are on 20 or 25 mm bases? Would I under the circumstances laid out above, be allowed
to use my converted models? (Note however, that all the models & bitz, are 100% Citadel miniatures from the
Warhammer Fantasy ranges of Vampire Counts and Warriors of Chaos.)
Surely I will just need, and ask, my opponents permission while playing friendly games, but I would really like to
know whether I could use this army on your WHFB tournaments.


Hi

I cant see there being a problem with this, as long as you accept that you are probably giving your opponents an advantage by giving them a larger area to attack.

Hope this helps

Andy Joyce

TheDean04
21-03-2009, 04:16
I'm in the same problems- trying to use empire models as woc (festus list)
I'm going to see if I can get my hands on 60 large infantry baces and bluetac the empire to them

not the best looking way round it but gameing wise it works

this would look just awful. spend the extra time and use magnets to swap from base to base.

Staurikosaurus
21-03-2009, 11:37
I would be wary about putting models on larger/smaller bases then they come with.

Yes you're just converting for aesthetics, however should you choose to use your undead WoC as undead consider the following:

Results of movement and unit profile are dependent upon base size.

Ranges to and from the unit are dependent upon base size. This accounts for a great many magic spells, ranged weapons and magic items.

In close combat base size determines which units you are in combat with and which models are in contact with which models.

The base size of a model impacts EVERY PHASE OF THE GAME. Therefore really think about it before changing the base a model comes with.

Urgat
21-03-2009, 12:35
I never quite understood why base sizes are not included in the unit profile anyway.

Found the base chart there ( http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/machiara/downloads/card-playsheet-v2.pdf ) but can't find it on the GW websites for now.

edit: fount it on the french website:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2440020_FRE_WH_Socles-PU-Type.pdf

Edit: lol, and that's march 2009, talk about up to date.

TheDean04
21-03-2009, 13:19
Yeah Im not sure why at the least that chart is not in the armies books, or in the rule book.

Urgat
21-03-2009, 13:59
The point about giants and dragons is a unclear :/
It says they should be played on the bases they're sold with, but in a tourney, it's better dragons use 50*100 bases and giants 50*75 bases, but add that any turney ruling should override that. Talk about undecisive :/
Thank gods, that's the only dodgy exemple in there.
<the steam tank goes on a 80*100 base. never heard of that before 0o

What the heck, is there a skaven mount for plague priests called the cauldron of a thousand poxes?
Scratch that, there's a load of skaven things i've never heard of in this base chart :D
"skittles off to the rumours section"

Bac5665
21-03-2009, 16:31
Ca, c'est excellent et tres utile!

I actually think they called the dragon bases thing about right. They basically said that the base it comes with is legal, but a chariot base is "proper" and people should convert where and when possible. In the mean time, make sure you ask about which is ok for touneys. I think that's exactly the right thing to say about them.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
21-03-2009, 16:34
For the ranking issue- you can always save yourself some space, money [always good] and time [I am an awfully slow painter] by having some of your troops in the process of being raised [you know, a head and arm poking out of the ground, a sword arm crawling towards its 'owner' on the next base, that sort of thing]. May be a bit cliched, but it could work.

C-Coen
21-03-2009, 16:55
Turned out zombies won't be a problem anymore, those Marauders easily fit on 20mm bases.
So only Grave Guard/Chaos Warriors to solve now. I'm busy trying out all different kinds of things, it's a shame they're so solid.