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View Full Version : are the days of 3 blocks and support gone?



danny-d-b
07-03-2009, 10:54
I've sepnt the last 3 days trying to make a o.k. DE army baced on the army of har greaf (lots of assasins, cauldon, witch elves and exectioners) and its proving to be a real pain

Looking over the list from the local club since the last edtion when lots of people (inculding my self) went for 3 blocks of infantry and support (execept breats of cource)

however now it seams to be 'support' winning the game, gone are the day when your 3 infantry blocks marched towards each other, with your cavelry, monsters, wizzards, missile troops and warmashines either took each other out or went for the infantry

now it seams all about who has the biggest hammer unit, which is not the way I like to play, and which means my all infantry empire non gunline army gets beaten most weeks?

should the game go back to more infantry baced?- there are 3 VC players at my local club- I don't think I have once been in combat with there infantry, its just eather there bloodknights (with count manfred and a vapm with 4+ ward save vs shooting banner and hatred banner on unit) or a spirit host/ cairn combo

I mean- I've been told to go gun line, but why should I have to, for me the game is about close combat, and I agree empire are avrage in CC but I'm setting up my units to be competitive against a mix of infantry and cavelry, then get smached by one unit and I get told to go gun line (or even give up as I'm a Cú*$ genral, not my falt I'm playing my army as the fluff says)

so is this the end of the 3 infantry blocks? are GW going to fix this next edition? should I just give up on my empire now and go on to play all mounted chaos? or even a deamon army with nothing but horrors and special and rares?

W0lf
07-03-2009, 11:06
Yes the game definatly needs to be more infantry based, ATM Cav are too dominant.

Its one of the things they did really well with WoTR.

Tae
07-03-2009, 11:18
Most of the armies in my local club have the three standard infantry blocks. Whether they win games or not anymore, depends on the army. Personally I try and keep my 3 blocks as far from combat as I can (even though they are Chaos Warriors) because I like to spam my magic. However there will almost always come a part where I have to fight with them, which is where the game is potentially won or lost.

In fact I can only really think of two armies here that don't use the standard 3 blocks of infantry. One is a Thorek gunline, and the other is a monster + skirmisher (DR+shades) DE army.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-03-2009, 11:33
The players in my group take several units of infantry (3-5) in their armies. That's just the way we play the game.

Maybe we're not competitive gamers but we're happy gamers.

Neknoh
07-03-2009, 11:51
Depends on the army I would say.

My tournament build up Fae list utilises two large blocks of marauders supported by Chosen, Spawn and a Warshrine as well as a faster element of warhounds, horsemen, knights and dragon ogres, all working together for the goal of winning.

Now, you have to keep in mind, infantry can be overrun, yes, BUT, and this is a big big but, infantry en-masse WORKS. There is a reason Skaven can still win games without lots and lots of ratlingguns, there is also a reason why Suicide Elves are actually a viable list.

And based on what you want to build, I would say have a look at suicide elves, they might be just what you are searching for.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54531&start=0
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=53579&start=0

W0lf
07-03-2009, 11:53
ive run suicide DE. They are disgusting, havnt lost with them yet.

7 pt spears w/hatred and 15 pt full command = win.

Aurellis
07-03-2009, 14:04
I don't get people aversion to infantry blocks with Dark Elves. I take 2 blocks of 30 Warriors, 20 BG and 20 Execs in my list... and look at my W/L/D in my sig if you want proof that it's not naff. It performs really well. The key is to have good support shooting (RBTs) and Harpies screening your lines. Forget about Dark Riders, get some Knights or Chariots on the flanks.

Stuffburger
07-03-2009, 14:52
Against a deathstar (like the bloodknight thing you're up against) just about everything is useless, esp. infantry blocks. That's the point of a deathstar, and it's a shame GW let that happen.

I wouldn't call it the end of infantry, but it's pretty common to call VC a fairly broken list. Most other armies I've seen have at least a couple blocks of infantry.

Toomanymind
07-03-2009, 14:58
Yes the game definatly needs to be more infantry based, ATM Cav are too dominant.

Its one of the things they did really well with WoTR.


I would like to see spears/polearms effecting cavalry more such as in the Total War series. Used to play Rome TW a lot and charging a unit of cavalry into spears was suicide and would cause your cavalry to almost always INSTANTLY break on impact.

"With the rise of heavily armored knights in the medieval age, spear shafts began to be planted against the ground to deter charging cavalry. Tactics, such as the schiltron, made use of massed spears in this way. Spears began to grow in length, eventually morphing into pikes as mounted knights became more important on the battlefields of Europe and a means to counter them needed." -Wiki

It put a lot more strategy into the use of cavalry rather than just charging straight into the enemy. I remember one battle specifically against the Greeks. Sure enough they had nothing but hoplites against my units of cav and a few of Roman infantry. They ended up breaking all but my General's unit and two other units of cavalry. So I ended up running circles around their slow moving hoplites instead of running away, figuring I'd take out as many as possible to weaken them as they were on a march straight to take one of my cities. I would wait until a unit straggled behind, and then feign charge it from the front, enough to cause them to lower their spears, and then stop the charge right before it hit, simultaneously charging them from both flanks and then immediatly withdrawing. I must have done this for a good half hour and wiped out a fair amount of the Greek hoplites before my numbers were dwindled down enough for me to decide to flee the field.

It was fun microing those three units of cavalry to take out units which usually decimate cavalry. I lost the battle, but had a full regiment near by to swoop in and finish them off, with my defeated General in the lead. :evilgrin:

Sorry that was a little OT:rolleyes:, but your comment made me reminisce.:D

@OP:

Yes, mass infantry battles are what I like about any game. When I think of something being a *special unit* I think of it as having a special purpose to play on the battlefield, it's just most of it seems to have the special purpose of just killing the most things possible. (Which is less strategic to me, and less fun. :cries:)

selone
07-03-2009, 15:34
Dark elves do a really good infantry list, in fact probably one of the better/best '3 block armies'.

EvC
07-03-2009, 15:53
I've sepnt the last 3 days trying to make a o.k. DE army baced on the army of har greaf (lots of assasins, cauldon, witch elves and exectioners) and its proving to be a real pain

Har Ganeth, you mean...

Finnigan2004
07-03-2009, 16:17
I'm not a big fan of using infantry heavy armies myself because I love monster and cavalry models for the purpose of aesthetics. That said, armies that are heavy in ranked infantry should be every bit as viable as other sorts, but they are quite simply not as good (with a few exceptions). Mobility is so key in the game that it takes a raft of special rules to make ranked infantry as effective as more specialized troops.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-03-2009, 17:18
I can't remember an edition where it was your basic blocks of infantry that dominated the game.

It's certainly an option for some armies, but for the most parts the 'hardest' lists have not been based on basic infantry blocks at least since 4th edition.

That's not to say you can't do that successfully, just that there have usually been options that have given you 'more power', but it magic, monsters, cavalry, skirmishers or what have you.

Kahadras
07-03-2009, 17:30
It really depends on the army I think. I play WE so it really isn't an option for me but many players at my club still play with plenty of deep blocks of infantry. There has been in dip though. The DE and HE players only usualy bother with a single block as do Lizardmen. The Empire, O&G, Skaven and Undead (both types) still field a fair amount of infantry blocks.

Kahadras

Archaon
07-03-2009, 17:34
The rules just disfavor infantry blocks to a degree.. they are slower and react slower than cavalry or flyers.

Now that since at least 2 editions (and possibly forever) cavalry has gotten stronger and stronger.. a simply 5 man strong cavalry unit has reasonable chances of routing a 20-30man infantry block if they attack from the side which is quite manageable.

Only viable infantry is either the ones that are immune to panic or psychology at all or has some other nifty special rule which makes them worth it (or they are dirt cheap) because otherwise people will take units that pack a heavier punch and are faster and base their armies around them.

If you want to play infantry heavy with success you either have to have tons of them (which may be a problem for points intensive armies) on the cheap so you can afford to lose 1-2 per turn and still have enough to swamp your opponent or you just don't field them at all or only as an alibi.

Foegnasher
07-03-2009, 17:48
as a skaven player that regularly runs 11 blocks of infantry, i say it's the way to go.

death stars can be flanked and beaten just like anything else, it's just a little harder to set up.

alextroy
07-03-2009, 17:49
now it seams all about who has the biggest hammer unit, which is not the way I like to play, and which means my all infantry empire non gunline army gets beaten most weeks?

The problem isn't the hardness of the enemy units. The problem is your army. An all infantry Empire list is leaving some of Empire's best units off the field. If you use a balanced empire list, you can bring either diversionary units to distract the hammer, and/or artillery to weaken and destroy them.

RossS
07-03-2009, 18:19
Against a deathstar (like the bloodknight thing you're up against) just about everything is useless, esp. infantry blocks. That's the point of a deathstar, and it's a shame GW let that happen.

I wouldn't call it the end of infantry, but it's pretty common to call VC a fairly broken list. Most other armies I've seen have at least a couple blocks of infantry.

To be fair, I think that VC armies built around infantry are fairly balanced things. You can field a competitive, but not abusive, VC list around blocks of skellies and zombies. At least that is what I tell myself.

I think the fact that, from what I can tell, most WOC lists are composed almost entirely of Knights and Marauders suggests that cavalry is a wee bit too potent at the moment.

Next edition: cumulative outnumbering + increase in the amount of rank bonuses that can be gained in combat = my Goblins and Zombies are once again viable.

Orcboy_Phil
07-03-2009, 19:36
Most of my armies have at least one block of 30 infantry in fact I can't think of any of my armies that dosnet have an infantry block of 20 or less. Thougth proberly my strongest infantry army is my nurgle Deamons. Three Blocks of 30 and a GUO with some furies as support.

isidril93
07-03-2009, 19:56
my daemons use 3 blocks (2 letters, 1 nettes) followed by seekers, crushers, fiends and a KOS

Neckutter
07-03-2009, 22:08
deathstars are the only thing to combat deathstars. which is quite a shame, really.

i have noticed that the game has devolved into less combat blocks of infantry, and more fast cav/skirmish/support units running around. although isnt that how the mogols won all their battles? they didnt play by the rules, and therefore they were always on the dominant side.

i would say a good tactic if you want the enemy to engage you, is to make NOT engaging you very costly. for example, i run a unit of 24 warriors, 6 wide. people would not want to run headlong into this unit, but i force them to by all the magic i throw out. either they sit out and try to outshoot me with magic, or they charge into my big block of killy. same thing could be done with empire with helblasters and a big unit of greatswords/detachments.

and i played against a DE list with 3 blocks of 30 spear elves, and it was just rediculous. when your 24 warriors are fighting 60 spear elves, its pretty impressive.

fluffstalker
08-03-2009, 03:17
Pretty much yeah. Its ceased to be a wargame and become something of a mash between Warcraft Three, Dungeons and Age of Wonders, with heroes, dragons and magical bolts flying everywhere, is seems fine because it is fantasy but in terms of balance and fun its only superficially entertaining. It gets old pretty fast.

I still play my Empire that way with large blocks of infantry, even if most heavy cavalry and mosnters unit in the game will steamroll them in one charge, its just more challenging to win games thats all. I feel like Ive actually earned it at the end of a hard fought match.

Shiodome
08-03-2009, 05:52
I play goblins. You're ALL broken as far as i'm concerned. ^^

Havock
08-03-2009, 13:28
Fanatics are broken man, they can kill my knights so easily, chaos knights shouldn't die to goblins :mad:

fubukii
08-03-2009, 13:40
goblins with huge oversized FLAILS of DEATH!

Necromancy Black
08-03-2009, 13:54
I play with a minimun of 2 Saurus blocks 15 strong, with an additional block of skinks and kroxigors. They are the solid line of my army and I very much play around them. The support is msotly to blast the crap out of everything so it's weaker when I charge or so I can handle a charge.

Block infrantry are good, I won't play without them.