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View Full Version : how useful is magic resistance? (can mr replace a scroll caddy?)



fishound7
07-03-2009, 10:22
so.. I'm wondering what the title says. This is also taken in the idea of a all-comers list.

As a dwarf player I can stack Mr on my combat blocks like no other army I believe. (although I might be wrong!) most armies that want to go magic light usually grab at least a scroll caddy right? Thats 3 dispell dice and 2 scrolls please correct me if i'm wrong i haven't played 2000 point games in awhile. So... If i'm right for 90 points (basically the cost of any scroll caddy) in runes on charactors and banners i can give 3 combat units 2 mr each (which is the majority of my points) and since i play dwarves thats 4 dispel dice. Is that more usefull then a scroll caddy? or aka runesmith.

I figure if i go against a heavy magic army I can't really shut down the magic phase anyway or i can but would have to heavily invest into anti-magic, which i don't really want too. If i invest in mr my combat blocks are somewhat protected against magic especially if they want to cast more then one spell on it (in the case of facing a magic heavy foe). everything else in the list would be basically disposable anyway.

If i want i could put two units with mr 3 and one unit mr2 too btw for 120 points.

It seems to me that most people treat magic resistance as something cute that is nice to have if the unit comes with it but not something they count on.

W0lf
07-03-2009, 10:25
With dwarfs just take a Runesmith with Great weapon, shield and 3 scrolls.

151 pts (iirc) and but him in a unit of warriors. He boosts them nicely. 5 DD and 3 scrolls is very good defence.

For most armies MR isnt brilliant as MR 3 units just get shot/charged and magic is directed elsewhere. ofc on a deathstar unit then fine. I always tend to run magic anyway so i never have this problem thou, i hate caddies lol.

Neknoh
07-03-2009, 10:29
As said, Scrollsmiths are probably better for your dwarfs.

Also remember, you take the highest given magic resistance value, they do NOT stack, a MR1, MR2 and MR3 person in the same unit would be futile, since only the MR3 would be used. Same goes for multiple uses of MR1 (unless specified in the item description), only one would ever be used.

Necromancy Black
07-03-2009, 12:11
As said before, MR does not stack, you simply use the highest.

Secondly, you only get MR on spells that specifically target the unit or, to put it another way, spells that can not be cast unless there is a target specified.

So all Magic missiles and most spell Mr will work against. Area affect spells, like Wind of Death, Clensing Flare and Wind of Undeath, won't let you use MR as no unit is specifically targeted.

This is due to an erreta in an FAW changing the wording of MR in the main rulebook.

Also, against some armies, like VC, MR is close to useless as the majority of their spells are cast on their own units or not onto yours. You can have all the MR in the world, but they'll still be casting invocation of nehek to get thier units back to starting health, moving them faster with Van hels, etc

These armies are better dealt with by using more generated disple dice and disple scrolls/runes.

EDIT:: The other ones that do the VC thing are usually TK and OK. OK won't be a worry but you usually want to stop TK getting the extra moves and such in.

Skaven is the one of best for taking MR against, as it'll work on just about every spell they have.

snottlebocket
07-03-2009, 14:24
Also, if I remember right for magic resistance to work, you still need to spend a dispell dice. So it doesn't matter how much magic resistance you pack into your army, you can't dispell more often than the number of dispell dice you have.

If you ever want to roll more than one dispell dice on a roll, even with the magic resistance, you're going to run out of dispell attempts even faster. Not to mention that great spells have high casting values, which means your opponent rolled so many dice that if succesfull, you're better off scrolling than taking your chances with a fistfull of dice. A double one is a failure to dispell, so buckets of dice aren't always your friend.

Dead Man Walking
07-03-2009, 14:55
I use MR in my dwarf army for several reasons.

1. I play marching dwarfs, its all about getting dwarves across the table alive before combat begins.
2. Its cheap for dwarves and you can easily get 1 in every unit if you want.
3. I went up against skaven skyre blasting a lot, 4 mages shooting d6 str 6 hits every turn? No thank you.
4. You dont need 1+ a dispel die to work, you get 1 die free everytime you are targetted. You don't -have- to use it if you dont want to.
5. I would rather have magic resistance every round than a dispel scroll that can only be used once.

The only disadvantages to MR are;
1. Cant be used on opponents spells if they target thier own units, like raise dead or vanhals dance.
2. Cant be used on comet or spells that dont -target- you.

When it comes right down to it try it out and see if it works for you, most of these guys who tell you it sucks have never actually tested it. Test it out yourself, the internet is not always the best source of information.

sroblin
07-03-2009, 15:07
Also, if I remember right for magic resistance to work, you still need to spend a dispell dice. So it doesn't matter how much magic resistance you pack into your army, you can't dispell more often than the number of dispell dice you have.

This is incorrect according to the rulebook page 95: "[magic resistance dispel dice] either can be used on their own against any spell that targeted against the unit, or in combation with dispel dice from wizards or other sources."

So even low magic resistance could be handy against those power level 3 bound items.

However,I don't usually take it on my units in general because it's too easy not to target them and focus on the rest of the army. Though if you are going to have 2-3 'must target' units in the army (such as deathstars, but also less extreme but still commanding units), then the value of magic resistance could be substantially higher. Just in general, however, it's it too easily avoided IMO.

Edit: just looked at the dwarf army list and realized that the MR upgrade was only 15 points and available to lots of units. So upgrading say your 5-6 combat units to MR1 would cost only 75-90 points. It is an interesting option, and would definitely be worthwhile against a mage-hammer opponent. It is still a substantial chunk of points, however, and not all enemy armies are going to A) have that much magic and B) focus on unit-targetting magic (notably Vampires, but other lists as well.)

swarmofseals
07-03-2009, 15:14
I'm going to agree with Dead Man Walking insofar as this is something that you should playtest. It doesn't cost you any money (assuming you already have a scroll caddy model) to try out both options, so just play a fistful of games with each setup and see what you like best!

Dead Man Walking
07-03-2009, 15:43
Lets say you take 100 points in anti-magic in a 2250 game thats .4% of your army. I think you can risk it. ;)

Mr also comes in handy against The Khemri chest of souls, you can practically ignore it the whole game and focus on his other units.

There is also a psychological advantage to it, once your opponent discovers you have magic resistance on a unit they will try to cast thier spells elsewhere, at easier targets. They wont focus on that one unit of hammerers.

Many of my games go like this;
Opponent; I target your hammerers, success! Thats 2d6 str 4 flaming hits.
Me; Okay they have magic resistance 1, and dispelled.
Opponent; Okay I target the other unit of hammerers, success! Thats 1 d6 str 4 flaming hits...
Me; Okay they have 2 magic resistance, and.... dispelled.
Opponent, Okay Conflaguration on the warriors..... success.
Me; Okay they have magic resistance 1.... dispelled.
Opponent; Jeez, does every unit have magic resistance?
Me chuckling; Probably, you can cast a spell on each of my units and find out.... :angel:

You can get MR for 15 points -PER POINT OF MAGIC RESISTANCE- on characters, and banners. In a dwarf army its dope, espeacially since you already have above average dispel abilities.

amazingdev2005
07-03-2009, 18:06
Unfortunately, this good tactic is still tricky in Dwarven army selection. The Rune of Sanctuary and the Rune of Warding are the two runes that give MR1 to your banners and heroes/lords, respectively. Both operate different. Sanctuary provides MR1 to the unit; multiples of this rune on the same banner are useless and only provide +1DD. Warding states: "Each rune confers a cumulative Magic Resistance (1) on the character and unit he is in." (pg 47).

So, a good combo would be put Sanctuary and whatever other runes you wish on the banner, then stick in a hero/lord with 15pts invested in a rune of Warding. The rune on the banner provides MR1 and warding cumulatively adds another MR1 to the unit he's in, which combines for MR2, or MR3 if you gave the hero Rune of Warding x 2.

Like previous posters' said, you can't protect everyone in a Dwarf marching and/or horde army whether due to points investment or due to the Rules of Runes not allowing you to duplicate those precious character/banner combos. Gunlines would have fewer units to slap the runes on, but CC is their real fear, not enemy target-related magic.

If your army is set up for it, try using an Oath Stone on a hero. It acts as MR1 for the unit in itself, and then add in the cumulative Rune of Warding from the hero to bump the resistance to MR2. Hope I've helped,

-AD05

Necromancy Black
07-03-2009, 21:44
Many of my games go like this;
Opponent; I target your hammerers, success! Thats 2d6 str 4 flaming hits.
Me; Okay they have magic resistance 1, and dispelled.
Opponent; Okay I target the other unit of hammerers, success! Thats 1 d6 str 4 flaming hits...
Me; Okay they have 2 magic resistance, and.... dispelled.
Opponent, Okay Conflaguration on the warriors..... success.
Me; Okay they have magic resistance 1.... dispelled.
Opponent; Jeez, does every unit have magic resistance?
Me chuckling; Probably, you can cast a spell on each of my units and find out.... :angel:

I still say this isn't going to work against my Slann :D

But against most other wizards it should be affective, but it's by no means a guarenteed saftey net. I've seen plenty of people throw 2, 3 or 4 dice to a casting value of 9 and not disple it.

fishound7
07-03-2009, 22:23
Well i don't know. I haven't play tested it yet but I'm thinking it would be worthwhile. I am putting mr on units i care about and need thier numbers intact when combat begins (aka my three combat units) for static cr. I figure i'm saving 60 points on anti magic to units that count by spending 90 points on mr. 90 points on mr = 2 mr per combat block vs. a runesmith that costs 151 points maxed out standard scrollsmith.

I made a list on the forums with this mr idea in mind please check it out and tell me what you think. I'm using mrogrungi as added protection on combat blocks as well....

http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187057

fishound7
07-03-2009, 22:38
I guess you could look at it this way. for dwarves

Scrollsmith per turn = 5 dice 3 insta stops
per game = 30 dice 3 insta stops (magic does what it wants)
Magic res per turn = 4 dice no stops 6 potential extra dice by surprise
per game = 24 dice and i direct his offensive magic to trashy units or his magic becomes less effective.

Conotor
07-03-2009, 22:43
Its usefull sto switch things up. I sometimes take a jacked up slann,, and sometimes no magic at all, so my opponent has to worry about waisting point on magic defence.

fishound7
08-03-2009, 01:53
Unfortunately, this good tactic is still tricky in Dwarven army selection. The Rune of Sanctuary and the Rune of Warding are the two runes that give MR1 to your banners and heroes/lords, respectively. Both operate different. Sanctuary provides MR1 to the unit; multiples of this rune on the same banner are useless and only provide +1DD. Warding states: "Each rune confers a cumulative Magic Resistance (1) on the character and unit he is in." (pg 47).

So, a good combo would be put Sanctuary and whatever other runes you wish on the banner, then stick in a hero/lord with 15pts invested in a rune of Warding. The rune on the banner provides MR1 and warding cumulatively adds another MR1 to the unit he's in, which combines for MR2, or MR3 if you gave the hero Rune of Warding x 2.

Like previous posters' said, you can't protect everyone in a Dwarf marching and/or horde army whether due to points investment or due to the Rules of Runes not allowing you to duplicate those precious character/banner combos. Gunlines would have fewer units to slap the runes on, but CC is their real fear, not enemy target-related magic.

If your army is set up for it, try using an Oath Stone on a hero. It acts as MR1 for the unit in itself, and then add in the cumulative Rune of Warding from the hero to bump the resistance to MR2. Hope I've helped,

-AD05

Can someone back this up?? sorry for doubting you amazing but if its true sweet jesus oathstones and rune of warding easily puts a warrior block with mr 2 SWEETness!!!!!!

Nkari
08-03-2009, 11:38
Basicly when it comes to MR.. vs Vampire count, it SUCKS, vs Direct dmg magic like skaven, etc it rocks.. a scroll caddy is soso vs everythign.. :P

WLBjork
08-03-2009, 20:14
Unfortunately, this good tactic is still tricky in Dwarven army selection. The Rune of Sanctuary and the Rune of Warding are the two runes that give MR1 to your banners and heroes/lords, respectively. Both operate different. Sanctuary provides MR1 to the unit; multiples of this rune on the same banner are useless and only provide +1DD.

Not quite what it says.

The rules for the Rune of Sanctuary are "Each rune provides MR (1)". It does not state that "Multiples of this rune have no further effect." (cf. Strollaz Rune, Rune of Courage, Rune of Guarding, Rune of Battle, Rune of Stoicism and Rune of Determination)


Warding states: "Each rune confers a cumulative Magic Resistance (1) on the character and unit he is in." (pg 47).

True.


Needs an errata to clarify, but until otherwise stated I'm playing that the Rune of Sanctuary is the same as the Rune of Warding, and that the MR is cumulative.

Slam
08-03-2009, 21:00
Generally MR is good against low casting lvl spells. I think most of your opponents would cast big spells (gateway, fire wall) either first and draw away dice from your pool (against 12-15 you need a lot of dice) and then start the smaller ones (a 5+ magic missile with two dice is hard to beat with MR 1). If they have spells that aren't affected by MR then they will start with them, draw out your dispell pool and then the big spells. You"ll need atleast two scrolls to get the big spells IMHO. With scrolls the plenty MR will either do nothing or win you the battle depending on the opponent.

amazingdev2005
09-03-2009, 02:27
Not quite what it says.

The rules for the Rune of Sanctuary are "Each rune provides MR (1)". It does not state that "Multiples of this rune have no further effect." (cf. Strollaz Rune, Rune of Courage, Rune of Guarding, Rune of Battle, Rune of Stoicism and Rune of Determination)


I initially thought these stacked as well. The Rune of Warding talking of "cumulative"-ness does make a case against the examples "no further effects" stacking (not that I'd like it to, being a Dwarf player :) ).

However, I thought the difference in descriptions for the only two runes that provided MR in the book was key. MR1 + another MR1 just means two MR1 runes on that standard--but only one gives the single DD dice, the other is wasted points. Sanctuary's description doesn't need to say duplicates have no effect since multiples of MR don't stack anyways unless specified.

Anyhoo, I do agree a FAQ is needed to fully clarify and this is only my logic and can be wrong with what GW provides for us ;)

-AD05