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View Full Version : Too Many Space Marine Chapters, no more codexes? Yay or nay



Cane
07-03-2009, 15:20
A few questions if ya don't mind, marked by the :chrome: icon
Inspired by the Guard threads thrown around where posters compare the lack of quality and quantity of updates to other armies, specifically specific SM chapter codex armies, got me to thinking are they even really comparable? :chrome:
A vanilla Guard codex versus a single SM chapter's, especially since the vanilla SM codex is a quality and relatively recent product?:chrome:
Another question comes to mind: Do you think that the idea of specific SM codices needs to be rethought?:chrome:

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for diversity but do you as a GW player really want to have to keep track of a library's worth of rules dedicated to SM's alone since there are plenty of more unique armies in need of updating?:chrome: How would you feel if specific SM chapter rules were incorprated into a large "SM Chapters Codex" or in an Armageddon-esque Codex/White Dwarf rules? :chrome:

From a Guard perspective the only dedicated codex for fielding a unique regiment from what I can recall is the Catachan Codex and even that includes a host of gameplay/terrain rules in addition to a unique army list - something you don't see in say a Blood Angels codex where you just get another list. The other unique Guard regiment rules are found in a couple of pages in an Armageddon-esque codex or White Dwarf rules, or Imperial Armor....none of which are solely dedicated to the Guard.

Economically it may not be feasible for GW to make unique SM chapter codices but really only GW has the numbers on how successful specific chapters have been.

Personally it doesn't seem effective or efficient to dedicate codicesfor specific SM chapters especially when there are plenty of Xeno's out there that could use some love.

stainawarjar
07-03-2009, 15:28
I don't have any numbers, obviously, but there seems to me that many specific space marine chapters (space wolves, dark angels, blood angels, or black templars to name a few) have more players than some of the more obscure xenos armies...

Baggers
07-03-2009, 15:30
The eye of terror book had a Cadian list. I do agree though there are to many marine varients avalaible. When I first started, there were only three marine codexs. Angels of Death, Space Wolves and Ultramarines and everyone used one of those.

I'd rather have a single marine dex, with a set of doctrines that make variant chapters. Space Wolves (my only 40k army) are the most extreme variant IMO. However a set of doctrines which gives them good charges and a close combat feel is all thats need.

Eryx_UK
07-03-2009, 15:37
What I would have liked to see for the Space Marine codex is for most of the fluff to be dropped (lets stick to the basics), have a standard army list but then have a section for chapter lineages. For example:

* Ultramarine & successors: Units can buy Favoured Enemy: Tyranids for X points per modal.

* Blood Angel & Successors: Assault marines may be taken as troop choices and may have Baal class Predator.

* Dark Angels & Successors: May take 1 Terminator squad as a troop choice.

* Black Templars: Each troop unit may take a Land Raider Crusader as dedicated transport.

* Space Wolves: All tactical squads get close combat weapons for free, and/or have furious charge for small points cost.

* Iron Hands: Units may buy FNP for X points per modal (to represent bionics).

Thats just musings as a type, but rather than different codexes, give options to represent the main chapters and successors like this.

Captain Micha
07-03-2009, 15:39
I'd much rather they focus on quality for the smurfs rather than spam till you get it right.

It hurts everyone, it hurts the non smurf xeno players who know they only get updated once every two editions due to marine spam, and it hurts the smurf players like DA who are almost worthless in quite a few ways next to the newer and newer versions of the Smurf army.

Inquisitor_Tolheim
07-03-2009, 15:52
What I would have liked to see for the Space Marine codex is for most of the fluff to be dropped (lets stick to the basics), have a standard army list but then have a section for chapter lineages. For example:

* Ultramarine & successors: Units can buy Favoured Enemy: Tyranids for X points per modal.

* Blood Angel & Successors: Assault marines may be taken as troop choices and may have Baal class Predator.

* Dark Angels & Successors: May take 1 Terminator squad as a troop choice.

* Black Templars: Each troop unit may take a Land Raider Crusader as dedicated transport.

* Space Wolves: All tactical squads get close combat weapons for free, and/or have furious charge for small points cost.

* Iron Hands: Units may buy FNP for X points per modal (to represent bionics).

Thats just musings as a type, but rather than different codexes, give options to represent the main chapters and successors like this.

Pretty much my opinion exactly. While the specific of how each chapter would be represented would need to be worked out the general idea of just putting all the space marines in one book seems like the most logical choice.

As it is, every space marine chapter can be represented by C:SM aside from the BT and SW. BA and DA don't need their own rulebooks anymore, as the diferences between them and vanilla marines are as major as swapping one unit into the troops choice slot and dropping another option. Blood angels have:

-Troops assault (aformentioned troops slot swap)
-Death Company (Could be a free marine per infantry squad with rending).
-Furioso (essentially a poor man's ironclad)
-Baal Predator (new turret option, and hardly a chapter defining choice anyway)
-Turbo-charged engines (Special character, chapter selection special rule).

The Dark Angels are even worse off. All they have anymore (to my knowledge) is the choice to take terminators as troops. Allow one squad as troops with a special character or chapter selection and you're golden.

BT and SW would have longer sections and would tweak the FoC more (I think just giving BT LR Crusaders really cuts down what the chapter is, at the very least they should also have the option for CC weapons) but are still using almost exactly the same units as the marine rulebook. Rolling them into one means that you won't have inexplicable differences between one marine's gear and another's.

The Orange
07-03-2009, 16:17
GW did the mini-dex thing, it either sucked (old chaos codex with books for each god) or was broken (eldar Bel-tan and Ultawe lists). Personally I don't mind seeing more codicies, give them much more room to make each army unique which is what I'd prefer. It also give them much more room to add army specific fluff which I personally prefer more. Not many people give a darn about an army that has one blurb in the codex and only one special rule, which is what we'll get if you try to shove all of those marines back into one book. I'm not a marine collector (yet) but I would be annoyed if my Black Templar army, etc. got downsized to 1 or 2 pages in the next marine codex.

Col. Tartleton
07-03-2009, 16:26
They need just do digitize all the codices so they're able to be updated smoothly, and they can be kept quite numerous and different. And they wouldn't have to go through the trouble of printing new codices just to screw with us and make us change our lists up and buy new stuff.

Grand Master Raziel
07-03-2009, 16:41
GW really ought to consider jumping on the Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Amazons-Wireless-Reading-Generation/dp/B00154JDAI/ref=amb_link_83624371_1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1JGCBCJJFSHN4NR518V2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=469942651&pf_rd_i=507846). They could pretty much do away with bound paper dexes entirely and just have all their rules as downloadable updates. That would give them more leeway with sub-lists, as they'd have less overhead than with bound dexes.

Leftenant Gashrog
07-03-2009, 16:48
* Blood Angel & Successors: Assault marines may be taken as troop choices

* Dark Angels & Successors: May take 1 Terminator squad as a troop choice.


I disagree with both of those, giving the BA Assault marines as a troop choice is an abomination of the current rules - fluffwise the chapter has no more regular assault marines than a vanilla chapter, the only extra assault marines are 1st company (now covered by Vanguard Veterans) and the Death Company, a better answer would be a berzerker upgrade to (veteran?) assault units to represent the Death Company.

Likewise giving Dark Angels only 1 terminator squad as a troop choice is wrong on two levels:
Point 1: It makes it impossible to the field pure terminator forces which they are known to do.
Point 2: The ability to field a pure terminator force should not be limited to Dark Angels and their successors - most chapters are capable of fielding the 16-25 suits necessary for a non-apocalypse "Deathwing" army (according to EPIC the standard size for an autonimous pure terminator force is 20 marines)

In reality the Dark Angels "thing" is the Master of Ravenwing riding a Jetbike or Land Speeder (and in EPIC any character can be mounted in a Land Speeder).

Eryx_UK
07-03-2009, 16:58
I disagree with both of those, giving the BA Assault marines as a troop choice is an abomination of the current rules - fluffwise the chapter has no more regular assault marines than a vanilla chapter, the only extra assault marines are 1st company (now covered by Vanguard Veterans) and the Death Company, a better answer would be a berzerker upgrade to (veteran?) assault units to represent the Death Company.

Likewise giving Dark Angels only 1 terminator squad as a troop choice is wrong on two levels:
Point 1: It makes it impossible to the field pure terminator forces which they are known to do.
Point 2: The ability to field a pure terminator force should not be limited to Dark Angels and their successors - most chapters are capable of fielding the 16-25 suits necessary for a non-apocalypse "Deathwing" army (according to EPIC the standard size for an autonimous pure terminator force is 20 marines)

In reality the Dark Angels "thing" is the Master of Ravenwing riding a Jetbike or Land Speeder (and in EPIC any character can be mounted in a Land Speeder).

I did say it was just typed up as musings to the post not a dedicated this is what it should be. I agree on both counts, I'm just saying that putting something like the above into the codex would be a better way of handling other chapters I think.

Gorbad Ironclaw
07-03-2009, 17:08
They could pretty much do away with bound paper dexes entirely and just have all their rules as downloadable updates.

Horrible, horrible idea. Having the rules in an electronic format is nice enough, but having them only in electronic format would be a disaster. There is no way it can compete with having a proper book with the rules in. It's much handier for reading where ever you want, it looks much nicer than print outs and it will sell things much better having a nice shiny book in the shop than telling people to go home and look on the net.

Marshal Sinclair
07-03-2009, 17:15
Online only publications are very much like Steam for games. They screw people over who don't have the net.

Hestan-San
07-03-2009, 17:19
I really don't see the problem with several marine codecies. I mean the blighters sell very well and the miniatures share a lot of common part. So all in all you could argue that the quick buck they make off of the variety of marine lists actually helps hold up some of the less profitable forces.

Also, exlectronic books are never going to happen for the following reasons:

1) 15 a book is like printing money, especialy when (I'm guessing here) 20% of players by all of the books.

2) GW have shown no interest in updating rules all that frequently (either FAQ / erata / re-print etc), so I dout they'd bother to update an electronic one either.

3) The nice colour sections are in there to sell miniatures... every time you flick the book open to write a list / check a rule you skim past photos of GWs minis. In an online book you can just skip to the page number. GW already has adverts on the web, they want them on your coffee table too!

4) Updates... are you really going to re-print pages every time they make a minor update?

scolex
07-03-2009, 17:21
Something like this came up before, and I went and did the math. By adding 1 Codex for the non-standard Chapters you could basically cover all of them. The old mini codexes were tiny, and if reprinted in a larger book could be entirely represented in 16-20 pages each. Use that to cover the 4 most divergent chapters, and you could still fit in the neighborhood of 40 more pages. There the other 4 less divergent first foundings could be described over 5-10 pages each. Leaving space that could easily handle ~10 moderately divergent second foundings. (4ed Codex took 1 page per ~3.5 Chapters in doctrines. In essence these chapters would just get a base chapter and a few special rules listed.)

I call that a good solution. Nobody can deny that GW would make an obscene profit on that book. And I really doubt anyone actually wants to see fellow players left swinging in the wind when the special rules for their Chapter get cut or condensed. I know I really don't like that my chapter has gotten all of a pdf over the last decade while GW rides the ultrasmurfs.

AndrewGPaul
07-03-2009, 17:22
It's all Bill King's fault, really. :) He wrote the fluff for the Space Wolves around the tail-end of Rogue Trader, and made them sufficiently different that they needed a whole new army list, rather than just using the one from the Compendium like everyone else.

I'm of the opinion that a single Codex: Space Marines would cover all the chapters, with a page each for the Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Blood Angels and Black Templars. IMO, all the special rules that the special chapters get is a bit over the top; the main differences can be covered by changing army list entries (e.g. Space Wolves tactical squads can get close-combat weapons but no heavy weapons, Assault squads can have up to 15 members, and allow Veteran Sergeants to take Terminator Armour; Blood Angels get extra Vanguards in place of Sternguards; Dark Angels get extra Terminator squads in place of Vanguard and Sternguard squads)

Warforger
07-03-2009, 18:15
I disagree with both of those, giving the BA Assault marines as a troop choice is an abomination of the current rules - fluffwise the chapter has no more regular assault marines than a vanilla chapter, the only extra assault marines are 1st company (now covered by Vanguard Veterans) and the Death Company, a better answer would be a berzerker upgrade to (veteran?) assault units to represent the Death Company.



Your an abomination of a fluff nazi. Blood Angels use them more Often and have been known to field nothing but assault marines, as such happened on Armageddon. This is also not to mention that for the new tactical marine fluff, BA can just take there bolter, and give them a chainsword and jump pack again.

I agree with the general consensus of them forming one SM codex with sublists rather then multiple SM codices (I mean, there used to be multiple IG codices and there are about to be multiple CSM codices, so there at least not alone)

Spacker
07-03-2009, 18:17
GW really ought to consider jumping on the Kindle (http://www.amazon.com/Kindle-Amazons-Wireless-Reading-Generation/dp/B00154JDAI/ref=amb_link_83624371_1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=1JGCBCJJFSHN4NR518V2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=469942651&pf_rd_i=507846). They could pretty much do away with bound paper dexes entirely and just have all their rules as downloadable updates. That would give them more leeway with sub-lists, as they'd have less overhead than with bound dexes.

Jump on a device that is only available to the US market? (purchases of books for it are restricted to IPs identified as being in the US, you can't even purchase them if you have a Canadian address let alone anywhere else in the world).

If you're going to go for an ebook reader that handles DRM'd ebooks go for the Sony PRS-505 or 700 - at least they support Adobe Digital Editions and so have a much wider range of books available and are supported worldwide.

BTW, I work for a book retailer that sells ebooks online, you should see how emails we've had from people who bought Kindle's from eBay and then found they couldn't buy any commercial ebooks to use on them. To be honest though the whole ebook market is a mess, epub has promise but Adobe's DE is a Flash based monstrosity. eReader Pro is a decent product with very wide OS support, unfortunately not many publisers support it so only around 10% of commercial ebooks are available for it.

Anyway, I digress - Kindle bad, electronic format with updates on the whole is a good idea though, although running out of batteries half-way through a game would be annoying :P

weissengel86
07-03-2009, 18:29
I like the idea of simply having two codexes for SM. The one we have now for standard codex chapters and then a second one for non standard codex chapters which includes all such chapters like balck templars, dark angels, etc. It should also include rules for custom non codex chapters in my opinion. With two codexes that would basically cover all of them without having GW make so many codexes and pissing off more people because their army doesnt get updated and which needs an update much more then SM.

I think the other races would be more popular if GW would actually update them regularly. GW isnt delaying updating them because their unpopular their unpopular because GW isnt updating them and gives us BS like they arent as popular so we focus on marines first.

Who here would play other races more or start a new army if GW actually fully updated and provided regular updates to the other armies besides SM?

In other words GW should stop spamming damn marines maybe then they wouldnt have such a monopoly two codexes is plenty. Even one is enough.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 18:30
Why Loyalist Space Marines even need more than 1 codex ?

decker_cky
07-03-2009, 18:47
Black templars and Space wolves are the two which are unique enough to really need their own full lists IMO. The dark/blood angels are pretty close to codex, so could be represented with some slight variations (baal preds/rhinos, death company and more assault marines for BA, homing beacons on bikes and terminators as troops for dark angels, along with characters and unique honour guard and equipment choices). You don't even need to make them any more vanilla than the current books. Just have a few pages of background, special rules, characters and FoC changes that reflect the different organization in unique chapters.

And just because it was done badly for chaos doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. It was a great idea there and it could be balanced more easily than three separate books could. Plus...chaos is a horrible example. Yes, it was unbalanced, but they fixed it and made another unbalanced codex that was bland. Better to keep it interesting.

Lord Malorne
07-03-2009, 18:52
Why do you people care?

A non vanilla marine army gets a codex, the odd unit then it is left alone for several years, it gets people to collect a non vanilla army and make...:eek:...money!

The topic should not be 'all in one book' but all non marine lists should have more codex's...

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 18:58
Why do you people care?

A non vanilla marine army gets a codex, the odd unit then it is left alone for several years, it gets people to collect a non vanilla army and make...:eek:...money!

The topic should not be 'all in one book' but all non marine lists should have more codex's...

Why ? Its obvious, i wonder how you missed it.

There is only few codex slots per year. More marine codices = other codices wait longer for re-do.

Geez. Use logic.

Lord Malorne
07-03-2009, 19:00
Then complain about the release schedule, not which armies exist :rolleyes:.

Znail
07-03-2009, 19:12
People tend to forget that SM and the special chapters are essentialy what pays for the rest of the products. It may be 5 diffrent armies, but they share alot of models wich makes for alot higher profit margin then for other armies. The codexes also take less work as they are more or less based on the latest vanilla codex. Its easy to say that you want GW to make more models, molds and put more effort into new codex and do so for less pay. But do you think GW running a loss is good for the game in the long run?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 19:25
Then complain about the release schedule, not which armies exist :rolleyes:.

Those two are *linked*, you know ?:rolleyes::wtf:

The Orange
07-03-2009, 19:48
Geez. Use logic.

And seeing as GW pretty much get to use the same models for about 6 codicies (CSM, SM, DA, BA, SW, BT), which are GW main sellers, thus their main money makers, thus the capital to support and produce all other less functional lines (DE, necrons, etc.), maybe you should think it out a bit too. :eyebrows:

Frankly I'm just thankful that 40k hasn't just become SM vs. CSM. GW still at least tries to support all their armies, but they still need to turn a profit and spawning of new renditions of SM helps keep them going. Between that and letting the company fail I choose the former.

Lord Damocles
07-03-2009, 19:58
Ideally I'd just have:

Codex: Space Marines - more or less as currently
Codex: Chapters of Legend - lists* and minimal fluff for DA, BA, BT, SW, UM**

However, from a 'let make lots of cash' standpoint, having a bajillion different codexes makes far more sense, and might (one day) pay for Dark Eldar to be re-done.


*Just the full army lists - not this stupid half the rules at the front of the book, and half the rules and options at the back, like we have now.
**Ultramarines are so non-codex now, they might as well get their own variant list.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
07-03-2009, 20:19
And seeing as GW pretty much get to use the same models for about 6 codicies (CSM, SM, DA, BA, SW, BT), which are GW main sellers, thus their main money makers, thus the capital to support and produce all other less functional lines (DE, necrons, etc.), maybe you should think it out a bit too. :eyebrows:

Frankly I'm just thankful that 40k hasn't just become SM vs. CSM. GW still at least tries to support all their armies, but they still need to turn a profit and spawning of new renditions of SM helps keep them going. Between that and letting the company fail I choose the former.

last time i checked GW have option to advertise SM beside releasing new codices.

and GW really could release new shiny SM minis too.:rolleyes:

think about it.

the1stpip
07-03-2009, 21:21
Without wanting to deviate, the reason there are more non codex players than 'certain xenos players' is because of their marketing strategies.

The Marines have to have someone to kill!

But, I believe there should be one Marine codex to cover most chapters (including BA and DA), and then separate codexes for SW and BT, as these are a considerable variation from the norm.

Narf
07-03-2009, 21:26
On The other side, if GW just released SM and then Varient SM, say 3 years apart they would get too big splurges of cash every 6 years, and smaller splurges each time they released another armies codex.

By releasing a SM variant codex every 12 months (roughly) it really does pay for the other armies, plus what about all the different models made means each army has its own feel, and in depth backround. The stupidist thing GW did was moving from in depth codex with back round in 2nd ed to pamphlets in 3rd.

On the other side of this though, it would be better if you still had fixtures left from the 4th ed marine codex, such as the traits, but paid for them, so less abuse, to make the majority of chapters (UM's and dark angels) then released several varient codex's, such as Wolves and White scars, Blood angels Raven Guard, imperial fists (including black templars, crimsons fists), Iron Hands and salamanders. More depth, more backround, reasonably similar armies together, so similar models released at the same time, same number of codex's and the 2nd founding chapters can be created from each one, leaving the same number of codex's, more detail, and more profit for GW.

But thats just because i'd rather see more fluff on each 1st founding chapter (i'd also do the same for chaos on the founding chapters)

I would also love to see some extra xenos codex's, such as exodite, more extreme variants of guard, kroot being worthwhile, and ork clans actually making a difference in choice of the army(s)

but GW will never have the time for that, so we're stuck with some of the tripe they put out, and little backround on the more interesting area's of universe they have created (though maybe its just ibnteresting as they havent spoon fed us everything that goes on)

Anyways thats just my 2 pence (an sorry for the spelling if needed)

The Orange
08-03-2009, 03:09
last time i checked GW have option to advertise SM beside releasing new codices.
SMs are already GWs poster boy who's heavily advertised. Remember what faction always comes in the starter sets? Which faction usually gets a LE model at Gamesday? Increasing advertising for SM is not the same as releasing new codicies. With new codices GW can cater to many different types of players who like SM, i.e. people who like Blood Angles vs. people who like Space Wolves. The codicies help expand the customer base for the same or similar models. More ads won't have the same effect.


and GW really could release new shiny SM minis too.:rolleyes:
They do that already too, except now each release can be used in almost all 6 armies instead of 1.


think about it.
Thanks but I already have. ;)

weissengel86
08-03-2009, 09:50
The justification that making tons of SM codexes helps fund GW seems absurd to me. If the other armies especially Dark Eldar, Inquisition, and Necrons had as much attention or regular updates as SM GW would make more money because many people would not turn their backs on the game or more people would join because they see that GW isnt going to make them wait 4 or 5 years for an update and then insult us with an absolutely useless FAQ (cough, daemonhunters, cough). Many people play SM because GW spams them so they feel their money is justified in purchasing them. Other armies stop getting bought because they think GW doesnt care or will spend more time on other armies. Why buy an army that GW abandons? How many people felt screwed when they dropped the squats? I hate the squats (biker dwarves in space? dumbest idea ever) but i would be clearly pissed if i payed the outrageous prices GW charges and then they dropped the army or simply ignored them for years updating other armies 2 or three times in a row without a single update for my army.

Its stupid business policy not a financial valid method of profit. If all the armies were updated regularly with each army getting the attention it needs GW would find that more would buy other armies and more would but their products period.

Although no matter what you do whiners will always crop up many with complaints made in ignorance but a business who alienates its base or on this particular type of product alienates its fan base that company will lose in the long run they will justify themselves until all of a sudden nobody buys their crap because all the fans left after they felt betrayed and ignored.

SM need at most two codexes, being the poster boy doesnt excuse ignoring everything else. If all their was, was SM then nobody would play and SM sales wouldnt save GW.

Maybe if we raised hell to GW they would wake up and smell the coffee and realize we dont need every other codex to be a damn marine codex. I am a marine and Imperial fan boi so you cant say i hate marines but i sure dont want them to monopolize the game.

Koryphaus
08-03-2009, 10:28
* Black Templars: Each troop unit may take a Land Raider Crusader as dedicated transport.

Woah, I know that this would be very expensive (both points and monetarily) but good god, I hope that never happens lol!

tankadams
08-03-2009, 11:18
How would everyone feel about having just one codex?

But not just any codex, an all encompassing rulebook size tome called Codex: Astartes. You could do it kind of like the way the Lord of the Rings book is done. Keep the seperate army lists because in my opinion there is enough diversity between the armies that already have books to warrant them keeping their own lists.

This can also eliminate differences in equipment and point costs.

I know this might not the be the most practical path and likely won't make as much money as the half dozen books will but it would be cleaner and means the marines will be updated no more than any other codex.

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 12:01
Woah, I know that this would be very expensive (both points and monetarily) but good god, I hope that never happens lol!

um...that exists now

Nil
08-03-2009, 12:12
This is a good idea, but it doesn't go far enough. What we need is a single Imperial codex that contains all SM, IG, and DH units in one, with an appendix full of small, one-liner sub-codices: "Adeptus Mechanicus: May take techmarines as troops. May not include chapter master, librarian, chaplain, Emperor's champion, captain, rogue trader, inquisitor, commissar, Eldar liason..."

TimLeeson
08-03-2009, 14:28
predictably (from my perspective) id rather see 20 new codices for lesser-xenos like Umbra, Q'orl and other non-humanoid races :D

not gonna happen..well not inless I win the lottery and give GW 30 million pounds to pay them to :D

Eryx_UK
08-03-2009, 14:31
Woah, I know that this would be very expensive (both points and monetarily) but good god, I hope that never happens lol!

They already get it in their codex if they want to spend the points.

Hestan-San
08-03-2009, 14:48
The justification that making tons of SM codexes helps fund GW seems absurd to me. If the other armies especially Dark Eldar, Inquisition, and Necrons had as much attention or regular updates as SM GW would make more money because many people would not turn their backs on the game or more people would join because they see that GW isnt going to make them wait 4 or 5 years for an update and then insult us with an absolutely useless FAQ (cough, daemonhunters, cough). <snip>

It feels like the only times I ever post on here are to point out that veteran players are NOT the people that bring in the most money to GW. Kids do. This is a view supported by the GW shareholder reports and largely confirmed by my time as an indipendant retailer. Necrons, DE and Inquisition didn't sell all that well when they first come out (when compared to SM), this it the main reason that they don't have new lists. Simply put, GW puts more money into garanteed earners.

It is unfortunately the case that GW sells as many space marines as the rest of the 40k armies put together (I can't quote the source of that right now, but the GW sales reps used to say that all of the time to us).

I really wish people would look outside of their blinkered, cliquey experience of the hobby before commenting on GWs sales strategy. It's very simple, they have the figures, they know what they are doing.

massey
08-03-2009, 14:49
I think there are too many alien codexes stealing away the spotlight from my marine variants. :)

Poseidal
08-03-2009, 15:02
I think there are too many Marine 'dexes at the moment as well. IMO:

Dark Angels - are way too similar to codex really; they're meant to give the impression of a codex chapter anyway. Death and Ravenwing already need special characters so they could have just had a 'special unit/character' entry in the main 'dex
Blood Angels - As above, with perhaps some unit choices that lock you out of others; just use a lot of Assault Marines and Veterans to fit them in.
Space Wolves - Possibly the only one that requires a separate book as they're more different in stucture
Black Templar - Should never have existed as a separate book. The CC schtick existed with both Blood Angels and Space Wolves to an extent. Their stuff should have been integrated into the main book long ago, and GW should have scrapped the vow system. Emperor's Champion as a special character is fine.

marv335
08-03-2009, 15:34
And yet the fact remains SM sell.
all those SM codecies are what pays for all the niche stuff.
No Marines=No anything else.
The figures I heard about a couple of years ago indicated that 40k outsells WFB and LotR combined.
Marine sales alone outsell WFB apparently.
That's why they make so many codecies. They pay the bills.

Poseidal
08-03-2009, 15:41
How many of those Marines sales are sales of the BASE army rather than the spin-offs though? I would hazard a guess most of the sales are of the basic C:SM units and characters, while the others are a much smaller minority.

There's also the fact that SM are pushed so hard, but we can't predict or have any values for something else unless GW do that.

massey
08-03-2009, 16:07
How many of those Marines sales are sales of the BASE army rather than the spin-offs though? I would hazard a guess most of the sales are of the basic C:SM units and characters, while the others are a much smaller minority.

There's also the fact that SM are pushed so hard, but we can't predict or have any values for something else unless GW do that.

You can hazard a guess, but GW is the one with the actual numbers. As it is, we don't know how much they make off the sales of a codex. How many Dark Angel codexes were sold? No earthly idea. As it is, we don't know how many of those variant marine players would have bought an army had they all been in one book. There are a number of local Black Templar players here, and I know some of them have stated that they never wanted to play Marines, but Black Templar were different enough that it was okay. Is that common elsewhere? I dunno. Are those sales that GW would have simply not had without a variant Marine list? Dunno.

Do Marines sell because they're pushed hard? Would other races sell better with more support? I have absolutely no interest in playing Necrons, no matter how hard they're pushed. They do not appeal to me at all. I have no interest in playing Dark Eldar or the Inquisition. I like Space Marines, Nids, and Guard. If most players are like me, the "lesser" races may simply hold less overall appeal to the majority of players. Dunno, I don't have the numbers. And neither does anyone here.

I think it's presumptuous to think that we know GW's sales figures better than they do. We know Dark Eldar sold badly, but we don't know how badly. I remember when they came out, I bought some. The models were pretty good at the time (I remember thinking they looked cool). Then I played them a few times and realized a winning Dark Eldar list wasn't the type of army I wanted to play. I didn't want to do Dark Lance spam. I didn't want to rely on a Raider Rush. I bought the army thinking they'd have more variety, and be more like regular Eldar. So I got rid of the army and started a different one. How many people did that? Just how badly did Dark Eldar sell? Don't know. What I do know is that our local store is constantly restocking the Dark Angel veterans boxes, and they haven't sold anything Dark Eldar in probably a year (which was a special order for a guy), and probably didn't sell any for three or four years before that. So if they sell even a hundredth as well as a Marine variant, I'd be surprised.

I'd like to see more alien races too. I think it would be neat to release some kind of campaign book with seldom seen races ("Foes of the Imperium" or something) that had Eye of Terror style army lists for a dozen or more different minor races. Not full codexes, just a "oh yeah, there's this kind of army over in the Ghoul stars, by the way this isn't tournament legal" kind of thing. But as far as I'm concerned, they could make room for all this stuff by just cancelling their Lord of the Rings and Warhammer Fantasy ranges. :)

TimLeeson
08-03-2009, 16:14
I dont know, its possible a race if pushed more could become more popular - at least it seemed to work for the Orks. I'm well aware however they were very popular back in second ed..

Poseidal
08-03-2009, 16:36
With Dark Eldar, wasn't it the most botched release they ever did? :/ Hopefully they'll get 'wood elf' treatment, as you see what it did the that line.

IIRC wasn't the top seller Chaos Black Spray?

massey
08-03-2009, 16:37
Of course, for any particular army, a good codex with good models will sell better than a bad codex with bad models. But I think the decision would happen something like this:

GW guy #1: Okay, we have to make X amount of profit this year to keep the doors open. We can do 3 codexes this year. We've got Guard ready to go. What should the other two be?
GW guy #2: Well, we know Marine books generally give us Y amount of profit. They're easy to do. So how about Space Wolves?
GW guy #1: What about Dark Eldar? Or Necrons?
GW guy #2: You remember how bad they sold last time? With Marines we know we'll still be in business. Let's do one of the others next year, when the budget isn't so tight.

noobzilla
08-03-2009, 16:50
GW guy #1: Okay, we have to make X amount of profit this year to keep the doors open. We can do 3 codexes this year. We've got Guard ready to go. What should the other two be?
GW guy #2: Well, we know Marine books generally give us Y amount of profit. They're easy to do. So how about Space Wolves?
GW guy #1: What about Dark Eldar? Or Necrons?
GW guy #2: You remember how bad they sold last time? With Marines we know we'll still be in business. Let's do one of the others next year, when the budget isn't so tight.


I think the reason they sell so bad is the lack of ability to play them in this new edition. They might sell better once they get 5th Compatible codexs.

Corrode
08-03-2009, 22:43
I think the reason they sell so bad is the lack of ability to play them in this new edition. They might sell better once they get 5th Compatible codexs.

Why does this keep getting trotted out? All the old 3rd edition books are usable in 5th, and Dark Eldar even have quite a strong list for 5th edition. There's a lot of useless rules, miscosted units and conflicts with more modern versions of things (I recall someone fussing about Hidden Deployment as written in the DE 'dex vs. the new version Nids have) but they're usable and even quite strong if played in a certain way.

PondaNagura
08-03-2009, 23:32
electronic dexes would be retarded, they work fine for smaller companies, but not with something the size of GWs fanbase.
you would limit who can use them, you'd force people to spend money on printing their own up, and they're too easily corrupted/edited. i wont go into filesharing.
also in as to the dataslate idea, i feel far less squirmish dropping a solid-state paper book than anything electronic...and you think hobbystore kids are bad now?

given the recent trend of publishing/layout, anything larger than the current marine dex would have to change its format, as bouncing back and forth for rule queries is bad enough with 144 pages let alone the 200+ paged hardback book the thing would have to be. and then that's making people pay 100+ pages of info/fluff that they may not even want? getting the balance and reducing confusion for anything that large would be an editors nightmare, and we see how well GW has been in the past in that department (though to their credit they have gotten better).

the thing about guard dexes is that FW pretty much has the monopoly on building off that idea, even if their books are outrageously charged.

i would like to see more xenos coverage, like with craftworld eldar, though the current dex offers quite some flexibility in build. in general the phil kelly books seem to be well organized/balanced.

AmBlam
09-03-2009, 00:06
It makes no difference whether the pages of the book are all attached together in one book or separated into smaller books, what matters is the content of the books.

Znail
09-03-2009, 02:51
It makes no difference whether the pages of the book are all attached together in one book or separated into smaller books, what matters is the content of the books.

GW has totaly dropped the idea of having books that reference other books. All codex are going to stand-alone in the future.

Asking Dark Angels players to use the vanilla SM rules is similar to asking Dark Eldar players to use the Eldar codex. Both are possible, but it wont make the players happy. Ofcourse, on this board so are marine players barely human and can be abused in anyway possible.

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 03:00
Just to cover the Dark Eldar thing that keeps popping up the reason DE don't sell is because the models don't look nice, at all, rules are brilliant, but if they could update the models (and maybe a bit of fluff) they would sell so much more.

noobzilla
09-03-2009, 03:21
Why does this keep getting trotted out? All the old 3rd edition books are usable in 5th, and Dark Eldar even have quite a strong list for 5th edition. There's a lot of useless rules, miscosted units and conflicts with more modern versions of things (I recall someone fussing about Hidden Deployment as written in the DE 'dex vs. the new version Nids have) but they're usable and even quite strong if played in a certain way.

I didn't say they weren't usable, but some of the rules problems that arise from the Codex being outdated, as well as outdated tactics that no longer work in game because of the new update. That is a major turn off for potential players.

The Orange
09-03-2009, 04:18
I didn't say they weren't usable

outdated tactics that no longer work in game because of the new update.
You sure your not saying their not usable?


That is a major turn off for potential players.
If your already aware of all the rules problems the DE have then you'd already know what their capable of, how they play, etc. etc. I'm sure the models and fluff are more of a factor then the rules. As most players don't know everything about the army the collect until after they collect them, and many players choose their armies based on either the look of the models, or the fluff behind them. Yea their are players that strictly go for power lists (i.e. build armies based on their rules) but I'm sure their in the minority.

weissengel86
09-03-2009, 05:33
I really wish people would look outside of their blinkered, cliquey experience of the hobby before commenting on GWs sales strategy. It's very simple, they have the figures, they know what they are doing. I cant say I believe that in the slightest. The idea that they have the figures so they know what they are doing is simply outright false. If this was true then why do businesses fail all the time? Why do huge companies with highly paid accounting, sales, and other staff in a similar role fail or go bankrupt because they made major mistakes, misjudged the consumer base, or alienated their customers?

All you have to do is look at companies like Microsoft, Intel, IBM, and others (to use examples from my particular field) to see that having figures has never and will never equal good business practices. WHy did Intel lose almost half the market share to AMD? Why is Apple and OS's like Linux gaining in popularity taking more of the market share especially considering the vast giant microsoft and its resources? Its because despite their figures they made big mistakes and possibly pissed off consumers who went to their competitor.

Any economist will tell you that knowing the figures or even having vast knowledge of the business doesnt equal success or profit.

Im amazed at how little people think outside the box here. Just because marines or little kiddies make a large amount of purchases and fuel profit doesnt mean focusing on them to the exclusion of the alternatizes equals growth or good business practice. Use some imagination here people it is possible to market effectively the other races it is possible to gain profit by focusing on other things just because the status quo seems to work doesnt mean it is efficient or the thing to do.

If GW gave us say a single very large codex like mentioned above with everything you needed and simply updated all the other armies one after another before making a new edition I can see only good things from that. Regular updates on all the armies provides confidence to the consumer because he will believe that his purchase will be supported and GW will not forget them therefore the other armies will gain in popularity and the marines will still be as popular without the spam and BS that comes along with them. If the other armies where done with as much attention as marines I can guarantee they will gain in popularity. Give them more units, diversity, fluff, and regularly updated rules with faqs for clarification as needed and that is a win-win situation. Giving customers what they want is good business not giving them what they want is suicide.

Psycoticspacemarine
09-03-2009, 05:56
I cant say I believe that in the slightest. The idea that they have the figures so they know what they are doing is simply outright false. If this was true then why do businesses fail all the time? Why do huge companies with highly paid accounting, sales, and other staff in a similar role fail or go bankrupt because they made major mistakes, misjudged the consumer base, or alienated their customers?

All you have to do is look at companies like Microsoft, Intel, IBM, and others (to use examples from my particular field) to see that having figures has never and will never equal good business practices. WHy did Intel lose almost half the market share to AMD? Why is Apple and OS's like Linux gaining in popularity taking more of the market share especially considering the vast giant microsoft and its resources? Its because despite their figures they made big mistakes and possibly pissed off consumers who went to their competitor.

Any economist will tell you that knowing the figures or even having vast knowledge of the business doesnt equal success or profit.

Im amazed at how little people think outside the box here. Just because marines or little kiddies make a large amount of purchases and fuel profit doesnt mean focusing on them to the exclusion of the alternatizes equals growth or good business practice. Use some imagination here people it is possible to market effectively the other races it is possible to gain profit by focusing on other things just because the status quo seems to work doesnt mean it is efficient or the thing to do.

If GW gave us say a single very large codex like mentioned above with everything you needed and simply updated all the other armies one after another before making a new edition I can see only good things from that. Regular updates on all the armies provides confidence to the consumer because he will believe that his purchase will be supported and GW will not forget them therefore the other armies will gain in popularity and the marines will still be as popular without the spam and BS that comes along with them. If the other armies where done with as much attention as marines I can guarantee they will gain in popularity. Give them more units, diversity, fluff, and regularly updated rules with faqs for clarification as needed and that is a win-win situation. Giving customers what they want is good business not giving them what they want is suicide.


QFT When I started playing around early-mid 3rd edition, only 1 in 3 people played marines(in my area). Now it seems everyone has a marine army and only 1 in 5 people play something other than marines.