PDA

View Full Version : Compendium of Daemonic Cheese (Anti-Tactica)



swarmofseals
07-03-2009, 16:01
Hi all, tried the search feature with several different combinations of terms and came up with nothing.

Anyway, I'm aware that there are a lot of really cheesy tournament army lists out there, and Daemons are a prime offender. Rather than complain about them, I was hoping to compile a list of the various things that daemons can do that are cheesy and start brainstorming counterstrategies.

If some of you folks could post the nastiest, most abusive daemon lists you can find/think up that would be fantastic! Proven tournament winners and homebrews are all welcome here.

As someone who is really new to the 7th edition scene, I figure I'll start off with a rudimentary run down of the codex and things that seem especially overpowered to me:

Special Characters:

Kairos - Absolutely ridiculous magic prowess with 2 full lores, level 4, +2 to cast, and reroll.

Blue Scribes - Seems like an almost auto-win vs. armies that cast a lot of small spells (like VC, for example)

The Changeling - Pretty cheap pointswise and is capable of neutralizing basically any single major threat. I guess he still will only have 1 wound, but if he can steal a lord or dragon's stats and give a straight line of 3's back in return, it might not matter.

Masque of Slaanesh - Doesn't seem as much overpowered as it does under costed although it is very powerful, especially as part of a leadership bomb strategy.

Skulltaker - Maybe OK on foot, but insane on a jugger. You pay the points, but you get what you pay for with a hero choice capable of taking on lord level opposition.

Karanak - Not sure if this guy is OP or if it's just that flesh hounds themselves are so strong.

Lords and Heroes

Kitted Bloodthirster - Obsidian armor is ridiculous on a BT -- seems like you basically HAVE to fight him with either massive static CR, a huge monster of your own, or over the top shooting. Your own characters won't be able to hurt him. Immortal fury also seems extremely undercosted for what it does.

Keeper of Secrets/Herald of Slaanesh w/ Siren song -- multiple siren songs seem like they would completely control the battle. Also great icon of despair could be abusive, especially when combined with Masque.

Lord of Change/Herald of Tzeentch - Twin heads and master of sorcery

Herald of Nurgle - BSB with Standard of Chaos Glory is going to make your plaguebearer blocks ridiculously hard.

Core Units

Pink Horrors - Cheap power dice with a strong offensive lore.

Plaguebearers - Mainly a problem with the aforementioned herald.

Special Units

Seekers - Maybe not too strong, but seem like really really good fast cavalry with some resilience to shooting thanks to the ward save.

Screamers - I was underwhelmed by these at first but slashing attacks could easily recoup the points quickly. That said, there seem to be much more abusive things out there.

Flesh Hounds - Like these... fast and incredibly strong for 35 points. Seriously undercosted.

Rare Units

Flamers - Incredible shooting ability for their cost coupled with T4, 2W, and skirmishing, and the ward save. Plus, they are even respectable in CC with their 5S and 2A. Another incredibly undercosted unit. Seems to me like one of the most OP troop choices in the entire list, quite possibly THE most OP.

I'm a bit on the fence about Bloodcrushers and Seekers. Bloodcrushers are nasty but very expensive. Seekers are really fast and hit quite hard, but again at 55 points they seem more reasonable. Maybe that's just because I'm comparing them with something like flamers though!

amazingdev2005
07-03-2009, 19:37
Hello,

Daemons were the first WHFB army I tried when I got back into the game. I picked up the book due to the many color schemes and range of models, then started painting up my hardy Dwarfs once more after a friend and I played with Daemons a few times and got bored.

Here's a few ideas I have on the subject of anti-Daemon tactics vs. WAAC/tournament lists that I'm aware of:

1. Bloodthirsters. Not really a list in themselves, but a focal point of a list with various other units chosen to support the big guy. If you see a BT, expect Obsidian Armor. No good reason not to pay 50pts for it, and most DoC players would agree. +1S & Flaming attacks included, but with the rise of HE this isn't a sure thing on the circuit. Most Daemon websites argue against Dark Insanity for the price, so don't think to much on that, however, this does leave room for a dispell scroll gift.

BT's survive due to setting up a flank/rear charge, getting into combat, then staying in combat unit the game ends and/or there's nothing left for him to charge. Non-VC unbreakable units don't work to tarpit as the BT would never charge them in the first place. Unexpected Stubborn units as bait (using magic banners or spells) works sometimes to hold him down for awhile. Poison units might have a chance, but you still have to get past armor and then ward saves.

If you have warmachines (especially great cannons, stone throwers, or anything that does +D6 W), aim and fire. Combine this with magic spells or items that limit movement of flyers, or anything that limits charge ranges.

I think this is probably the most difficult unit to contend with singularly in the entire army. I'll reply later with other units broken down.

-AD05

Gork or Possibly Mork
08-03-2009, 01:13
Special Characters:

Kairos - Absolutely ridiculous magic prowess with 2 full lores, level 4, +2 to cast, and reroll.

Blue Scribes - Seems like an almost auto-win vs. armies that cast a lot of small spells (like VC, for example)

The Changeling - Pretty cheap pointswise and is capable of neutralizing basically any single major threat. I guess he still will only have 1 wound, but if he can steal a lord or dragon's stats and give a straight line of 3's back in return, it might not matter.

Masque of Slaanesh - Doesn't seem as much overpowered as it does under costed although it is very powerful, especially as part of a leadership bomb strategy.

Skulltaker - Maybe OK on foot, but insane on a jugger. You pay the points, but you get what you pay for with a hero choice capable of taking on lord level opposition.

Karanak - Not sure if this guy is OP or if it's just that flesh hounds themselves are so strong.

Don't forget the Tallywacker, once the wall of Nurgle gets just 8 kills it's pretty much game over for most armies. IMO the Epidemius Tallyman list is just as abusive as the Kairos flying circus list.

Vandur Last
08-03-2009, 01:25
Yeah i really cant comprehend how they arrived at such a low cost for Flamers. Compared to most armies they are both more shooty and more choppy than could be expected for so few points.

As for how to deal with them.. well im not sure. Beating them in CC might work but only if their S5 counter-attacks arent going to hurt you too much. You cant rely on CR to break them because all Daemons basically get a free pass on those break tests.
Shooting against them = fail. Magic would work but these guys are so cheap that for the damage output needed to clear them youd be looking at several times worth their points of Wizards.

Shrug i guess if there was an easy answer they wouldnt be broken.

Ultimo ninja
08-03-2009, 07:25
This list is nuts...I didnt belive the GW amnager that he was 10-2 in his first 12 games with them till i saw him crush a veteran HE player like he was a noob......

If I was playing demons, I would ruthlessly attack their heralds...these are (most of the time) the backbone of the army....since I play WOC I have to challenge nyways, so get KB super heroes and get to it!

akgaroth
09-03-2009, 02:24
DoC are not all that impossible to deal if you know somewhat which units are going to be used, but they can problematic in a tournament as they have a lot of viable army lists.
Well, as I collect WoC so I'll talk about their anti-Daemons tools they have:

-All the army have access to MoS and MoK to deal with psychology. DoC really can't rely on baiting units, also because they can't flee as a charge reaction (being Itp), and normally DoC players will have significally less miniatures and units than you, so the MoK and the extra attack thanks to frenzy should reveal itself useful.

-Plaguebearers can be dealt with normal CW, as they simply outmatch them in close combat and the successive combat resolution. Also, if you have an Exalted Hero in your unit you could easily deal with the Herald, depriving its Locus ability to the unit. CW aren't exactly a cheap units points-wise, but neither are plaguebearers. And they don't like Flickering Fire of Tzeentch as well coming from your MoT sorcerer with +1 to cast. However, monster and knights should avoid them (with M6+ it shouldn't be that hard) as they could be stuck for a bit longer than CW as they don't have any rank.

-Khorne Hounds can also be dealt with CW, but here the combat odds are about 50/50. Monsters of any type can deal with them a little bit easier. Also, hounds don't have any armour save as other cavalry units, so even 2 hands weapons should be useful against them.

-Obsidian armour on MoK characters: simply get GW for your combat heros; -4 to AS and wounds on a 3+ on a Bloodthirster (so they've paid 50pts. for nothing:D). In any case MoK daemon troops are pretty fast, so you would strike last anyways. Against KB you have 2 armours (Crimson armour of Dargan and Bronze Armour of Zhrakk) to protect your characters, and against Bloodletters and Bloodchrushers you have a quite bunch of ogre-sized monsters to deal with them which are faster than them.

-The Masque: charge her with your hero on disc or on slaneesh's steed to block her (she's not all that hard to destroy neither) or shoot to her some magic missile if the DoC player is in short of DP. Or simply charge her if you have the opportunity.

Flying circus of Tzeentch:
Horrors are absolute crap in CC, and normally players tend to make units of 10 of them (in order to launch more Flickering Fires in a turn) and they're slow too; charge them with your horsemens with spear of flails as soon as you can and they will be history. Even if they are joined by the Changeling they won't last long (and it doesn't get the S bonus of the spear/flail).
Flamers are harder to deal: Knights with Blasted Standard (5+ Ward save against ranged attacks) and MoT are undoubtly the best option against them.
An Exalted hero with MoT on disc of Tzeentch with shield, sword of battle and Golden eye of Tzeentch may be helpful too; an Exalted hero with MoS and similar equipement may also be used. This two Heros may also be used against blue scribes and screamers. Long story short, your army has to be as fast as possible and has to have as much protection against ranged attacks (= hounds, blasted standard, Golden eye of Tzeentch for your heros; MoT may also help somewhat) as possible.


-The GREATEST problem (couldn't be more appropriate):
All GD, with any mark. Nurgle ones are a bit weaker since they are slower and have a pretty low WS, but they may have some pretty nasty tool.
Simply avoid them and concentrate on the rest of the army. Of course this won't be always possible, also because they're so damn fast, so you could occupy them with something of their size (Giants and Lords on Dragon being the best options by far) waiting the opportunity to destroy them with flank/rear charges and CR.
Kairos is a case appart, as you usually find yourself chasing him; charge him with horsemens with MoS/MoK (US6+) or a hero on disc/slaanesh's steed, although in this last case you have to wound him instead of relying on CR.

Fenrir
09-03-2009, 14:40
Hi all, tried the search feature with several different combinations of terms and came up with nothing.

Anyway, I'm aware that there are a lot of really cheesy tournament army lists out there, and Daemons are a prime offender. Rather than complain about them, I was hoping to compile a list of the various things that daemons can do that are cheesy and start brainstorming counterstrategies.

If some of you folks could post the nastiest, most abusive daemon lists you can find/think up that would be fantastic! Proven tournament winners and homebrews are all welcome here.

As someone who is really new to the 7th edition scene, I figure I'll start off with a rudimentary run down of the codex and things that seem especially overpowered to me:

Special Characters:

Kairos - Absolutely ridiculous magic prowess with 2 full lores, level 4, +2 to cast, and reroll.

Blue Scribes - Seems like an almost auto-win vs. armies that cast a lot of small spells (like VC, for example)

The Changeling - Pretty cheap pointswise and is capable of neutralizing basically any single major threat. I guess he still will only have 1 wound, but if he can steal a lord or dragon's stats and give a straight line of 3's back in return, it might not matter.

Masque of Slaanesh - Doesn't seem as much overpowered as it does under costed although it is very powerful, especially as part of a leadership bomb strategy.

Skulltaker - Maybe OK on foot, but insane on a jugger. You pay the points, but you get what you pay for with a hero choice capable of taking on lord level opposition.

Karanak - Not sure if this guy is OP or if it's just that flesh hounds themselves are so strong.

Lords and Heroes

Kitted Bloodthirster - Obsidian armor is ridiculous on a BT -- seems like you basically HAVE to fight him with either massive static CR, a huge monster of your own, or over the top shooting. Your own characters won't be able to hurt him. Immortal fury also seems extremely undercosted for what it does.

Keeper of Secrets/Herald of Slaanesh w/ Siren song -- multiple siren songs seem like they would completely control the battle. Also great icon of despair could be abusive, especially when combined with Masque.

Lord of Change/Herald of Tzeentch - Twin heads and master of sorcery

Herald of Nurgle - BSB with Standard of Chaos Glory is going to make your plaguebearer blocks ridiculously hard.

Core Units

Pink Horrors - Cheap power dice with a strong offensive lore.

Plaguebearers - Mainly a problem with the aforementioned herald.

Special Units

Seekers - Maybe not too strong, but seem like really really good fast cavalry with some resilience to shooting thanks to the ward save.

Screamers - I was underwhelmed by these at first but slashing attacks could easily recoup the points quickly. That said, there seem to be much more abusive things out there.

Flesh Hounds - Like these... fast and incredibly strong for 35 points. Seriously undercosted.

Rare Units

Flamers - Incredible shooting ability for their cost coupled with T4, 2W, and skirmishing, and the ward save. Plus, they are even respectable in CC with their 5S and 2A. Another incredibly undercosted unit. Seems to me like one of the most OP troop choices in the entire list, quite possibly THE most OP.

I'm a bit on the fence about Bloodcrushers and Seekers. Bloodcrushers are nasty but very expensive. Seekers are really fast and hit quite hard, but again at 55 points they seem more reasonable. Maybe that's just because I'm comparing them with something like flamers though!



How many times have you played against the daemons?

fubukii
09-03-2009, 15:12
the only units that are even remotely overpowered in the daemon book are the following

Bearers with herald
Flamers
blue scribes.

even then compare flamers ot other shooting units like them (such as razodons) and they dont seem so bad. Razodons get rough the same amount of shots but without modifers and also rock str 5 hits in combat. granted they dont have a ward save but the mixed unit rules and cold blooded help keep them around, along with EOTG ward saves.

amazingdev2005
09-03-2009, 15:14
Flamers - Incredible shooting ability for their cost coupled with T4, 2W, and skirmishing, and the ward save. Plus, they are even respectable in CC with their 5S and 2A. Another incredibly undercosted unit. Seems to me like one of the most OP troop choices in the entire list, quite possibly THE most OP.

They do have a fairly good statline for CC, if the enemy can survive the Stand and Shoot response to the charge first. With M6 and skirmish these fellas are hard to outmaneuver or short-charge to remove Stand and Shoot.

Although another poster argued against shooting or MM, I'd say that's your only way to go. Regular S3 bows won't do much against T4, W2, but if you have a Helblaster, Organ Gun, Handguns, RBTs, Doom Diver, and Fanatics you'll give 'em a headache.

I know it might also seem like a waste since they can only kill one model in a skirmishing unit, but if the GD is already subdued or ripping into one of your units on the flanks and is disqualified as a target, fire your cannons, stone throwers, and bolt throwers at the unit. Sure, from a points definition you won't equal the worth of your war machine, but you will most likely reduce a D6 S4 flaming hits on a unit next turn.

I think WE are better at tackling these guys. I know Flamer attacks are magical and won't give Forest Spirits their +5 ward. However, Strangle-root shooting attacks from one or more Treemen combined with natural wood terrain (WE get one for free to place during deployment) boosts up that bound spell. I wouldn't recommend attacking with anything that has the Flamable rule, but use those units as bait and attack with Dryads (-1 hit from skirmishing, -1 hit from charging, S4 & A2). Lock the Flamers in combat and then hit them with an Alter kindred hero w/GW kitted out for attacks. Or a Lord Alter kindred with the sword that scores both sides' LD and adds a D6, with lost wounds to the lower number equal the difference. With WE Lord LD = 10 and Flamers most likely not within 12" of GD, their LD 7 will be painful.

-AD05

Lord Khabal
09-03-2009, 15:15
I dont really think Karanak or changelling are over the top. flamers yes, flesh hounds maybe, BT depends on the opponent, as well as the blue scribes. Block of plaguebearers + herald BSB with +D3 combat res is very tough to deal with but is also very expensive.
Kairos is VERY annoying though... Killed all my chaos knights in 3 turns... all 3 units of 6!!!

fubukii
09-03-2009, 15:31
kairos isnt really that powerful, he is a 600+ pt mage with 6 pd not exactly game breaking. Sure he has alot of diversity due to his being able to select 8 spells among his tzeentchian spells, but he cant cast all 14 spells. Although in combo with the blue scribes (hence i said the scribes are oped) he becomes alot better

EndlessBug
09-03-2009, 16:04
even then compare flamers ot other shooting units like them (such as razodons) and they dont seem so bad. Razodons get rough the same amount of shots but without modifers and also rock str 5 hits in combat. granted they dont have a ward save but the mixed unit rules and cold blooded help keep them around, along with EOTG ward saves.

Actually 2 razordons costing roughly the same as 4 flamers:

2 Razordons
avg = 10 shots per turn (BS 3?)
4's to hit = 5 hits
Stand and shoot (x2 shots, -1 to hit) = 6.67
12" range
Can missfire
Mixed units (less shots go on the razordons)
5+ scaly skin
2 Str 5 attacks each
In combat the skinks can be hit, WS2 T 2 no armour (free kills)
Fear
Skirmishers
3 wounds

4 Flamers
avg = 14 shots per turn (BS 4)
when moving at long range hitting on 5's = 4.67 hits
With either short range/stand and shoot/not moving = 7 hits
With neither = 9.33 hits
18" range
ItP
5+ ward
Skirmishers
2 S 5 each
2 wounds
Unbreakable (though take wounds)


The only time razordons are better are between 9" and 12" where they get +0.33 hits. Every other situation flamers beat them. Flamers cannot be paniced, do not have to take monster readtion tests, are HIGHLY unlikely to break (crumble) if engaged in combat, have a longer range, always get a save...

fubukii
09-03-2009, 21:14
you are aware that double the shots actually nets a average of 20 shots and i believe they dont suffer a penealty for stand and shoot as per thier special rule. i could be mistake tho

CaliforniaGamer
09-03-2009, 21:30
the only units that are even remotely overpowered in the daemon book are the following

Bearers with herald
Flamers
blue scribes.



Hmm if some dont feel a Thirster with Obsid armor/immortal fury and firestorm blade ISNT "even remotely overpowered" then Im at a loss....

fubukii
09-03-2009, 21:46
ah i knew i forgot something :)

well the thrister is really good but i would say no more so then other large flying monsters. Most thristers in tournaments will not have flaming because it makes him worthless vs he. But all in all the thrister is very good for his cost.

As for the razodons confirmed no pen for stand and shoot.

akgaroth
09-03-2009, 23:31
As I said in my other post, simply take mundane weapons (GW, lances, flails) for your heros to deal with Obsidian armour and spend your magic items allowance on defensive items. The BT/DP/Herald of Khorne will have spent 50pts for nothing. Magic weapons won't help that much against DoC anyways now that they have 5+ Ward save against any kind of attack.

swarmofseals
10-03-2009, 01:28
you are aware that double the shots actually nets a average of 20 shots and i believe they dont suffer a penealty for stand and shoot as per thier special rule. i could be mistake tho


They actually do not average 20 shots when standing and shooting. You forget that if either die rolls a misfire (30.55% chance on a stand and shoot) then no shots are fired and some skinks die.

Each Razordon fires an average of 8.33 shots as a charge reaction for a total of 16.66, or 8.33 hits on average. A bit better than the flamers, but it doesn't factor in the cost of losing the skinks to a misfire either.


__________________________________________________ _________


To everyone else: Thanks for the replies so far, lots of good tactics in there.

I am no expert in WHFB. I actually haven't played against demons at all in this edition. I make no claim to really knowing anything. I was merely posting my personal impression of the army book.

The point of this thread is not to argue about whether or not daemons are OP or which units are OP and which aren't. In many ways drawing the line between powerful and overpowered is a subjective distinction.

The point is to compile a list of tactics -- both general and army specific -- to use against a variety of powerful daemon strategies, and many of you are posting some great ideas.

I'd also love to see some people post some of the more popular "cheesy" daemon tournament lists so that we can pick them apart and analyze them. Anyone out here with knowledge of the tourney scene that could do us this favor?

Thanks!

Commissar Vaughn
10-03-2009, 01:40
Theres a Slaanesh army in these parts thats apparently undefeated, Ive been trying to work out some counter strategies for it for my various armies and cant help thinking there doesnt seem to be many weaknesses.

I suspect anEmpire army will handle Deamons best: If you cant hit the Greater deamon with a magic sword hit him with himself! the speculum and casket can both mean the Deamon army is basically fighting its own reflection backed up by artillery! The main problem i can see is the whole Ld reduction, -d3 and -2 could be bad combined with terror tests. Perhaps Karl and a bsb with imperial banner would take the edge off it...

Cant work out how to do it with dark elves though, my gut tells me magic and shooting heavy are the way to go, though my dice tend to be far to fickle to think it would ever work.

I think the best defence against deamons is to know what they can do and play very carefully accordingly. You dont seem to get a chance to stop a lot of their abilities (like the charge or flee thing) so you gotta be a step ahead to make sure he hasnt the opportunity to use them. I suspect any army will benefit from cheap fast heros tooled for a one way mission to remove one of the hero level characters who seem to boost the effectivness of the whole deamon army. Maybe its time to invest in more pegasi...

Makaber
10-03-2009, 01:48
Okay, these are the tricks I have picked up so far. Some are very obvious, but what the heck.

Take Champions in your units, and use them to challenge any Greater Daemons. A Bloodthirster against an infantry block with full command gives you a CR of 5, versus his (very probable) maximum of 6, giving you a fair chance of standing your ground, thus buying you some time. Even better, throw a Warbanner in the mix, and you'll win by 1, due to the musician.

Even without the Warbanner you can win subsequent rounds by hitting the Bloodthirster in the flank with something else containing a Champion. Since the actual regiment won't fight, you can keep this element cheap and fast, like a bare-bones fast cavalry regiment.

Killing Blow has helped me out a lot in my games against Daemons in the past. They bypass both the almost mandatory Regeneration of the Plaguebrearers, the high Toughness and multiple Wounds of the Flesh Hounds, and the high Armour Save of any Bloodcrushers you might run into. Plus, they're good for offing Heralds (with a little luck).

Fenrir
10-03-2009, 10:05
I actually haven't played against demons at all in this edition. I make no claim to really knowing anything. I was merely posting my personal impression of the army book.

Perhaps actually playing against them, instead of going on "internet wisdom" would open up a lot more about the army for you.

I suggest going and playing a few games, then forming an opinion, rather than letting others form it for you.

fubukii
10-03-2009, 11:21
They actually do not average 20 shots when standing and shooting. You forget that if either die rolls a misfire (30.55% chance on a stand and shoot) then no shots are fired and some skinks die.

Each Razordon fires an average of 8.33 shots as a charge reaction for a total of 16.66, or 8.33 hits on average. A bit better than the flamers, but it doesn't factor in the cost of losing the skinks to a misfire either.


__________________________________________________ _________


To everyone else: Thanks for the replies so far, lots of good tactics in there.

I am no expert in WHFB. I actually haven't played against demons at all in this edition. I make no claim to really knowing anything. I was merely posting my personal impression of the army book.

The point of this thread is not to argue about whether or not daemons are OP or which units are OP and which aren't. In many ways drawing the line between powerful and overpowered is a subjective distinction.

The point is to compile a list of tactics -- both general and army specific -- to use against a variety of powerful daemon strategies, and many of you are posting some great ideas.

I'd also love to see some people post some of the more popular "cheesy" daemon tournament lists so that we can pick them apart and analyze them. Anyone out here with knowledge of the tourney scene that could do us this favor?

Thanks!


No actually the average amount of shots fired from a razodon per art dice is 5 and a flamer averages 3.5 (both impossible to actually roll)
So a unit of 2 razodons stand and shooting with 4 art dice of shots will on average net 20 shots, causing 10 hits. 4 flamers will net 14 shots with 7 hits. Yes theres a chance you may misfire but then you have to consider theres a more likely chance that you will roll a 8+ then rolling the misfire. if you go for max shot potential:

razodons max 40 shots 20 hits, 13 wounds to t3, 10 to t4
flamers max 24 shots 12 hits, 9 wounds to t3 6 to t4.

Average amount of shots
razodons 10, 5 hits, 3,3 w to t3, 2.5 to t4
flamers 14 ( will at least suffer a movement penealty, and probably long range most of the time) netting 4.6 hits less the dons
granted if they are at short range it jumps to 7 hits, and roughly 9 hits if they stay still at short range

Now looking at that razodons and flamers shoot about the same with razodons having alot more max damage potential, and being much better on the move due to no modifers and have a much better stand and shoot. Razodons have more wounds the flamers, due to haveing 3 wounds and 3 crew meaning 6 wounds total per herd. Now if you put razodons in a army of LM where it has a EOTG (highly likely as these things are everywhere) they even get a ward save actually becoming more survivable then flamers!

Now flamers are a very powerful unit, but people just over judge how good they are compared to other units because they are daemons and because of that fact people have inherent hatred towards them.

EndlessBug
10-03-2009, 11:54
swarmofseals point was that if a missfire is rolled on 1 of the 2 dice the razordon shoots then it does not shoot at all, so if 1 razordon rolls a missfire and a 10 it actually gets 0 shots. Which is why the average was lowered, 1/3 of the time no shots will be fired.

Now I'm not sure how true this is because i don't have the book in front of me but that I believe was his point. If those are the rules then yes it does lower the average number of shots (the second artillery dice being affected by the first).

4 wounds T4 for flamers
3 wounds T4 and 3 wounds T2 for slamanders

Ok, you have convinced me a little that they aren't as bad as I'd imagined but I'd still say flamers are more powerful than razordons. Comaritively I'd say flamers should be +10 points more than they are now.

fubukii
10-03-2009, 12:05
actually if a misfire is rolled all the other shots still go through, its not like a helblaster or a warmachine. So granted that you roll a ten and a misfire, you still get 10 shots, and d3 skinks get eaten.

Dokushin
10-03-2009, 15:25
No actually the average amount of shots fired from a razodon per art dice is 5 and a flamer averages 3.5 (both impossible to actually roll)
So a unit of 2 razodons stand and shooting with 4 art dice of shots will on average net 20 shots, causing 10 hits. 4 flamers will net 14 shots with 7 hits. Yes theres a chance you may misfire but then you have to consider theres a more likely chance that you will roll a 8+ then rolling the misfire. if you go for max shot potential:

razodons max 40 shots 20 hits, 13 wounds to t3, 10 to t4
flamers max 24 shots 12 hits, 9 wounds to t3 6 to t4.

Average amount of shots
razodons 10, 5 hits, 3,3 w to t3, 2.5 to t4
flamers 14 ( will at least suffer a movement penealty, and probably long range most of the time) netting 4.6 hits less the dons
granted if they are at short range it jumps to 7 hits, and roughly 9 hits if they stay still at short range

Now looking at that razodons and flamers shoot about the same with razodons having alot more max damage potential, and being much better on the move due to no modifers and have a much better stand and shoot. Razodons have more wounds the flamers, due to haveing 3 wounds and 3 crew meaning 6 wounds total per herd. Now if you put razodons in a army of LM where it has a EOTG (highly likely as these things are everywhere) they even get a ward save actually becoming more survivable then flamers!

Now flamers are a very powerful unit, but people just over judge how good they are compared to other units because they are daemons and because of that fact people have inherent hatred towards them.

This is full of incorrect assumptions and oversights.

1) If a razordon rolls a misfire, the armybook specifies that it does not fire this turn. This means the average shots from 2 razordons on a stand and shoot must take that into account, and this means that the average stand and shoot of two razordons is 8.88. This is not very close to the average stand and shoot of four flamers, which is 14.

2) Flamers have a much longer range than Razordons. Razordons do not suffer a move-and-shoot penalty but may only move 6" and fire. Flamers can hit anything without moving (hence on at worst BS3, sometimes BS4) that a Razordon could have hit by moving and shooting (always on BS3). Therefore anything a Flamer would have hit on a 5+ a Razordon would not have been able to shoot. Such comparisons are therefore meaningless. As a result of this, since Flamers get more average shots per points, Flamers will always get significantly more shots against a target than Razordons will for the same points. These shots will also be magical and flaming.

3) A razordon has 3 wounds and a Flamer 2, but 4 Flamers cost the same as 2 Razordons, and 4 Flamers have more wounds than 2 razordons, as well as twice as many attacks. The skinks are not targetable, nor participants, in CC, until all Razordons are dead. If you assume that only shooting attacks are used, then the randomization gives the razordons 4.5 effective wounds opposed to the 4 of the flamers, until the skinks die to shooting or misfire. Also, the Engine of the Gods ward save only works against shooting. This means that Razordons and handlers with the ward save from the Engine of the Gods are approximately as survivable as Flamers against shooting only, until they misfire, and are far less survivable in CC.


Conclusions we can draw from this:

Flamers have much better average hits, with all of those hits being magical and flaming, at any range.
Flamers are much more reliable as they cannot misfire.
Flamers also have the ability to hit targets over 18" by moving, which Razordons do not have.
Flamers are much harder to kill and much more dangerous to both charge and to engage in CC, and cannot break.
Flamers are equally resilient to shooting as Razordons with handlers and the Engine ward, until the Razordons misfire -- and the Flamers cannot panic.

Flamers are one of the most overpowered and undercosted units in the game right now -- and share an amazing synergy with one of the most powerful and undercosted armies.

CaliforniaGamer
10-03-2009, 16:21
Dokushin has convinced me an immediate errata altering the flamers is needed for cohesion of gameplay across the WFB universe.

GW-please read and listen to your customers.

Grimbrow
10-03-2009, 16:35
Dosukin's quite right with his maths (if indeed a misfire on one dice means no shooting at all for a razordon; haven't seen the book closely enough). You'd have to take the chance of misfire into account when drawing up average shots and percentages, fubukii. Sorry, but flamers are just significantly better than razordons.

Jainar
10-03-2009, 16:58
Okay, these are the tricks I have picked up so far. Some are very obvious, but what the heck.

Take Champions in your units, and use them to challenge any Greater Daemons. A Bloodthirster against an infantry block with full command gives you a CR of 5, versus his (very probable) maximum of 6, giving you a fair chance of standing your ground, thus buying you some time. Even better, throw a Warbanner in the mix, and you'll win by 1, due to the musician.

Even without the Warbanner you can win subsequent rounds by hitting the Bloodthirster in the flank with something else containing a Champion. Since the actual regiment won't fight, you can keep this element cheap and fast, like a bare-bones fast cavalry regiment.

Killing Blow has helped me out a lot in my games against Daemons in the past. They bypass both the almost mandatory Regeneration of the Plaguebrearers, the high Toughness and multiple Wounds of the Flesh Hounds, and the high Armour Save of any Bloodcrushers you might run into. Plus, they're good for offing Heralds (with a little luck).

Sorry - but aren't ALL daemons immune to killing blow? I might be confusing my 40k with wfb as all daemons are immune to instant death in that game system.

CaliforniaGamer
10-03-2009, 17:20
Sorry - but aren't ALL daemons immune to killing blow? I might be confusing my 40k with wfb as all daemons are immune to instant death in that game system.

No, in fact no daemons are immune to killing blow Im aware of.
they do have a ward save, but characters like Skulltaker and the bret ability is able to even KB large greater daemons.

Total KB immunity is fairly rare, VC cuirass, special characters like Malekith in Armor of Midnight come to mind, sure there are others too.

Draconian77
10-03-2009, 17:20
You can Killing Blow most Daemons in WHFB, but with Ward saves and an attack requiring 6's it's by no means a great method of dealing with them.

Also, most armies have very little access to Killing Blow barring maybe Dark Elves and Khorne Daemons.

Fenrir
10-03-2009, 17:28
Dokushin has convinced me an immediate errata altering the flamers is needed for cohesion of gameplay across the WFB universe.

GW-please read and listen to your customers.



Some hope of that. The army is here to stay for a good few years yet. The complaining won't change anything.

If Daemons get banned everywhere and nobody can use them, then what next? DE's are overpowered! Ban them too. VC? Def banning around these parts, Sunshine.

Every edition has its OTT army. Daemons are the one for this edition, and thats way things are. At least until GW releases another superpowered book in the future.

Arguleon-veq
10-03-2009, 17:37
No they arent thankfully.

The problem when faced with Daemons and trying to devise an anti tactica is the variety of different types of effective units Daemons can provide in 1 list.

I personally think small arms fire is a great way to weaken Daemons. They just arent that durable to it. A lonbow brings down a Bloodletter/Daemonette/Horror as easy as they do a 6pt Empire Trooper. A Crossbow brings them down as easy as a 5pt Orc. Add to that the fact you cant really fit many in an army.

With a few blocks of half decent infantry in decent numbers, you will beat these enemy units.

The problem with this is that they have harder to kill fast units such as Flesh Hounds who are also resistant to magic. So these become the main targets for our guns.

Killing Heralds is a key element to beating Daemons, without them, their army really loses some of its power.

Horror Heralds are easy enough to kill, I even sometimes throw small warhound units at them to try and take a wound off. When these start to die the Daemon magic phase starts to weaken. Always allocate attacks against them in combat, they are just as hard to kill as a normal Horror so you arent losing out on combat res, plus once they are gone, the Horrors fall much quicker.

Slaanesh Heralds are an even easier target if you can catch them. With this though, you have to ensure you can survive their ASF attacks. Knights are a good bet. 5 Basic Knights with a Champ and Musician can often do the job, Empire can do this with a Core choice for 123 points. On top of that if you do break, you should outrun the unit and rally on LD9.

Bloodletter Heralds depend entirely on the equipment they take. Without the Jugger though, they arent too tough to crack. Again expendable units here, you dont wont your expensive elite models getting killing blowed. Goblin Fast Cav like Spider Riders can do it [with a little luck, you average just under 1.5 wounds].

At the end of the day, these guys are T3, often with a 5+ Save [Ward]. Thats it. They arent that hard to kill off if you really go for them. The Khorne Herald can have that 1+ Save which is a pain, but it leaves him open to the first lore of metal spell.

Steal Sole, Buboes, Hochland Long Rifles, Peagent of Shrikes, any sniping offense should always go at these guys, they just arent that hard to kill and give the Daemon army a massive boost.

Of course we have the tough one.

Nurgle Heralds. This guy is a tough nut to crack. Especially when you consider that it should take a pair of charging Hydras to kill him. If he is on a Palanquin, it makes things a little easier as you can stick more attacks on him. We all have access to a unit that can kill him and that is 3 Maneaters with Great Weps. They will kill him in a turn and should get the charge. They do set you back 260 points though, but they should hold in that combat and then go to work on the Bearers.

Failing that, killing blow is one of our strongest bets. I love anything that lets us re roll wounds with killing blow. Ludwig Shwarzhelm, Wardancer Nobles with the Wardancer magic weapons. Lizards can always stick a Scar Vet on a Cold One [not the Jag charm, you wont get it off against Daemons heavy dispel pool] with Burning Blade and Bane Head. Flaming Sword is another option but unless it is on some kind of Warrior Wizard, it will only get you a single wound.

Greater Daemons are another big problem. There are a few specific counters to the flying guys such as;

Shadow Wizard Lord with Speculum. Steed of Shadow him into that Thirster. Or stick a captain on a Pegasus with it. The Shadow Wizard Lord has the added bonus of possibly getting Pit of Shades to sink those Plague Bearers. Imagine the look on your opponents face when your Wizard Lord kills his Thirster and 20 man Bearer unit with his Herald BSB :p

Frostblade, Flying, Beguile, Hatred Vamp Lord also stands a good chance. Other than those though, they are hard to actually kill.

Again shooting but these guys can fly.

Great Unclean Ones are hard to kill but at least they arent as fast and dont do as much damage, you are probably best tying this guy up as he wont beat most units static res. Dwarven Flaming War Machines also stand a shot at taking him down.

The Keeper isnt too hard to kill really. Again if you can stop it flanking you, it cant really beat static res 5 units to the front, just dont giveit any easy targets.

Not sure what else to suggest really besides the obvious, take items that negate their fear. Marks of Slaanesh, Icons of Magnus etc.

fubukii
10-03-2009, 17:44
This is full of incorrect assumptions and oversights.

1) If a razordon rolls a misfire, the armybook specifies that it does not fire this turn. This means the average shots from 2 razordons on a stand and shoot must take that into account, and this means that the average stand and shoot of two razordons is 8.88. This is not very close to the average stand and shoot of four flamers, which is 14.

2) Flamers have a much longer range than Razordons. Razordons do not suffer a move-and-shoot penalty but may only move 6" and fire. Flamers can hit anything without moving (hence on at worst BS3, sometimes BS4) that a Razordon could have hit by moving and shooting (always on BS3). Therefore anything a Flamer would have hit on a 5+ a Razordon would not have been able to shoot. Such comparisons are therefore meaningless. As a result of this, since Flamers get more average shots per points, Flamers will always get significantly more shots against a target than Razordons will for the same points. These shots will also be magical and flaming.

3) A razordon has 3 wounds and a Flamer 2, but 4 Flamers cost the same as 2 Razordons, and 4 Flamers have more wounds than 2 razordons, as well as twice as many attacks. The skinks are not targetable, nor participants, in CC, until all Razordons are dead. If you assume that only shooting attacks are used, then the randomization gives the razordons 4.5 effective wounds opposed to the 4 of the flamers, until the skinks die to shooting or misfire. Also, the Engine of the Gods ward save only works against shooting. This means that Razordons and handlers with the ward save from the Engine of the Gods are approximately as survivable as Flamers against shooting only, until they misfire, and are far less survivable in CC.


Conclusions we can draw from this:

Flamers have much better average hits, with all of those hits being magical and flaming, at any range.
Flamers are much more reliable as they cannot misfire.
Flamers also have the ability to hit targets over 18" by moving, which Razordons do not have.
Flamers are much harder to kill and much more dangerous to both charge and to engage in CC, and cannot break.
Flamers are equally resilient to shooting as Razordons with handlers and the Engine ward, until the Razordons misfire -- and the Flamers cannot panic.

Flamers are one of the most overpowered and undercosted units in the game right now -- and share an amazing synergy with one of the most powerful and undercosted armies.

Ok well i stand corrected on the misfire bit, i thought that it could still fire, if one of the art dice was a misfire. Some of your other statements are just partial truths though.

- "Therefore anything a Flamer would have hit on a 5+ a Razordon would not have been able to shoot." THis is a partial truth here, yes if ithe flamers shoot something over 18 inches away this is the case, but if you want to move and shoot something 15-18inches away from the unit you will still need 5s. There are also many circumstances where you do not want to keep your skirmishers stationary as well (such as moving to get out of los, or to set up charges/flank charges) Razodons never suffer pens for moving, long range, or stand and shooting. meaning they are indeed much more scary to charge then flamers. If you do not believe me roll it out charge unit into 3 razodons and into 6 flamers, do it roughly 5 times and see what happens, im sure you will see that the razodons actually inflict more hits as i stated.

a razodon with 3 wounds, a armor save (5+scaly i believe) and 3 handlers under the effect of the EOTG meaning 6 wounds total, 3 of which have a 5+ armor and a 5 Ward, the other 3 have low toughness but all pack the same ward as a flamer. In this particular instance they are more survivable as i stated.

You have also discounted that razodons arent ws2.

Dont get me wrong im not saying flamers arent a extremely powerful unit, im just saying Due to them being from the DOC book people automatically complain about them more then other similar units.

Dokushin
10-03-2009, 18:01
a razodon with 3 wounds, a armor save (5+scaly i believe) and 3 handlers under the effect of the EOTG meaning 6 wounds total, 3 of which have a 5+ armor and a 5 Ward, the other 3 have low toughness but all pack the same ward as a flamer. In this particular instance they are more survivable as i stated.

Read what I wrote -- the handlers ONLY matter for shooting, and then it doesn't matter how many there are, just how likely they are to be hit (randomization goes 1-4 hits razordon, 5-6 hits handler). The leftover handlers when the razordons are dead aren't worth considering. In CC the handlers have a rule that keeps them out of combat until all the razordons are dead, and then not only do you not have any razordons, you have a bunch of T2 WS2 guys with no armor. That randomization chance for shooting gives the Razordons the same 'effective' wounds as a Flamer (4.5, actually), for as long as the Skinks survive, which between shooting and misfires won't be for long. They also don't matter for warmachines and templates.

Again, I'll restate -- IF the skinks are still alive and IF the engine is giving a 5+ vs. ranged, then against ballistic skill shooting the Razordons have similar survivability to Flamers, until the skinks die or the engine moves or is disabled or uses another power. Any of those circumstances put the flamers back on top -- vs. shooting. In CC the Flamers are -always- better, as a 5+ ward trounces 5+ armor, and the Flamers are going to have more wounds and more attacks on the front line. And again, Flamers cannot panic, cannot break, and don't have to worry about Ld4 monster reaction tests.

Even on defense, the Flamers have a significant edge, and as discussed exhaustively they have an overwhelming superiority and reliability on offense -- and that's compared to the most similar unit I can think of. They're just ridiculously efficient. They aren't autowin -- nothing is -- but they're autogroan, for sure, and in any other army would be an automatic take-as-many-as-you-have-slots.


If you do not believe me roll it out charge unit into 3 razodons and into 6 flamers, do it roughly 5 times and see what happens, im sure you will see that the razodons actually inflict more hits as i stated.

3 Razordons cost 225 points. 6 Flamers cost a significant bit less than that (180?). It's true that the 3 Razordons, costing a third again as much with less range, and having a special rule designed specifically to make their S&S devestating, might be slightly better than 6 Flamers for stand and shoot, but they get trounced everywhere else despite paying so much more. That's what everyone's saying -- that the Flamers cost far too little for what they provide.

Watch this thread and tonight or in the morning I'll provide a lot of concrete numbers to demonstrate.

Edit
10-03-2009, 18:24
also you would have to add the 400pt cost of the EoTG to get them that ward save :P

Lijacote
10-03-2009, 18:29
3 Razordons cost 225 points. 6 Flamers cost a significant bit less than that (180?)

Not true. 6 flamers without a champion cost 210, they're equal with the champion.

swarmofseals
10-03-2009, 19:02
Perhaps actually playing against them, instead of going on "internet wisdom" would open up a lot more about the army for you.

I suggest going and playing a few games, then forming an opinion, rather than letting others form it for you.

If and when I start playing again regularly I will. I really don't mean to be rude by saying this, but I think you are really missing the point of this thread. This isn't about my personal opinion formation -- its about providing a place to talk about what the most powerful daemon strategies are and how those strategies can be overcome with a variety of armies.

Even though I may not have a lot of experience playing WHFB 7th ed, I do have pretty extensive experience playing a number of strategy games at top levels of competition. I know the value of "internet wisdom" and the value of personal experience, and I really don't need to be told what won't be helpful to me with respect to these sorts of things.



__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Not to cut off the discussion about Flamers Vs. Razordons or anything, but the relative value of these two units is kinda missing the point. Just because another army has a similarly powerful choice doesn't mean that flamers aren't really, really good.

SevenSins
10-03-2009, 19:07
Thank you Arqulen-Vec for adding some anti-demon tactics!
(this thread can currently be named "why flamers are better than razordons")

Haven't much experience playing demons but I'll give my 2 cents (don't have cents either come to think of it):
1. defense against fear is very helpful, from BSB to fear causing items or Itp units.
2. Targetting heralds as said is a must
3. Remember that all demons are itp and so can't flee, use this to your advantage when charging.
4. massed shooting is helpful, at least against horrors, demonette variants and bloodletters, less so unless str 4+ against pb's.


on a positive note Demons are a very forgiving army, so user friendly to new players ;)

Might I suggest someone digging up a "standard" demon powerhouse list and then we can discuss general helps in beating it? (not making anti-lists as such)

Dokushin
10-03-2009, 21:03
*grin* point taken. I'll put up a new thread later.

Regards DoC: My experience is, they tend to get the ward instead of armor, and everyone gets it. Your best bet is just to hit as hard as you can, where you can. Static CR can work, but because of the way Instability tests work you need something to back it up with -- losing combat by 1 several turns in a row isn't going to hurt them nearly as bad as losing by 6 or 7 for one turn. It's like anyone else, really, except without any of the little 'boons' like panicking units or breaking at -1.

Typically, I find it better to focus everything you can on one unit at a time -- it's a lot like facing VC. The units are harder to kill but can't tarpit you as much -- just bring everything you can to bear on one thing at a time. Start with the flamers. (lol)

fubukii
11-03-2009, 02:44
yea 6 flamers is 210 pts and 225 pts with a champion as stated before. After this reply im done with the flamer razodon debate as thats not what this thread is about, All i was trying to say is that razodons are similar to flamers in terms of effectiveness for roughly the same points. they are better in some ways and worse in others, overal flamers are better.

but back on topic, playing against daemons is different then playing regular armies as stated..Winning by 1 or 2 possibly even 3 will not defeat a daemon unit with alot of wounds. (ranked units for example) but is effective vs thier smaller units especially if they out of general range (testing at ld 4-6 isnt very fun even with instability). Static cr works good vs most greater daemons with the exception of the thrister they will struggle to win combat without some support.

- daemons can tend to have alot of regeneration ( due to nurgle) in the army, flaming attacks should be considerd
- Minus flamers they dont have a shooting phase. Howler wind works well as a anti flamer spell, or at the very least makes them waste a couple pd to dispel it in thier magic phase, ws5 troops are very effective vs flamers in combat (shades for example). Best way to deal with flamers is magical missles, auto hit weapons, and ws5 + combat troops.
- Blood letters and daemonettes are fairly easy to deal with and arent really considered competitive options for daemons so i wont get into their counters.
- FLesh hounds, Basically shooting of any kind is decent vs them, flank charging them and large amounts of static cr are the other good ways to deal with them. Usually DOC players only take 5 hounds per unit for some reason which at full strength should just barely even out with a Static cr 5 unit probably losing due to the musician, try to keep the doc player from ganging up units vs you the flesh hounds wont be as scary. Certain Powerhouse units can just punch through them ( chaos knights with MOK, blood knights, cold one knights with Hydra banner, Black guard, swordmasters etc), and units with asf are decent vs them.
- Posioned attacks in general are very good vs daemons, minus the bloodthrister, Khrone heralds, and bloodcrushers nothing has a armor save so they will be relying on 5+ wards to deal with all the posion wounds.
-take into consideration that daemons dont run. Thats both a advantage and a disadvantage for them, they can not flee from your charges so take that into consideration

thats all ill add for now for anti daemon ideas, ill post more later.

Arguleon-veq
11-03-2009, 14:37
I have been trying to think of some anti Daemon Empire armies that are still fun and will work against other armies.

Stanks I think are a no go vs Daemons. The fact that the Horror Heralds can get any spell they want means they will get melted with Lore of Metal.

War Alters?, avoided by the flying Greater Daemons. There is also the risk of S7 Flick Fire. They are nice though.

Here is what I was thinking;

Shadow Sorc Lord; Speculum, Crimon Amulet, Shroud of Magnus. -295
Sorc; Icon of Magnus, Powerstone. -145
Sorc; Ring of Volans. -120
Priest; Silver Horn, Sigil of Sigmar, Heavy Armour, Extra Hand Weapon. -148

23 Swords; FC -163
- 10 Halberds -50
- 10 Handguns -80

10 Handguns;
10 Handguns;
-160

5 Knights; Preceptor, Musician. -139
5 Knights; Preceptor, Musician. -139

Cannon;
Mortar;
Hellblaster;
-285

14 Flagellants;
14 Flagellants;
-280

A mixed and balanced force that should be fun to use against a lot of things but against Daemons we have a very effective Greater Daemon hunter in our lord.

We have other mages to blast out Lore of Light or Metal depending on our opponents choices.

We have 3 reliable infantry blocks. 2 of which are unbreakable. If the Flaggelants manage a charge they average about 5 Kills.

We have Herald Hunter units in the Knights. They have a fairly decent shot of killing a Khorne, Slaanesh or Tzeentch Herald.

We have some ranged firepower that should weaken their line. Mortar for their Infantry, Hellblaster/Cannon for the big beasts.

Probably still get stomped but it has some handy tools against Daemons without being a beardy Empire build.

Fenrir
11-03-2009, 14:57
If and when I start playing again regularly I will. I really don't mean to be rude by saying this, but I think you are really missing the point of this thread. This isn't about my personal opinion formation -- its about providing a place to talk about what the most powerful daemon strategies are and how those strategies can be overcome with a variety of armies.

Even though I may not have a lot of experience playing WHFB 7th ed, I do have pretty extensive experience playing a number of strategy games at top levels of competition. I know the value of "internet wisdom" and the value of personal experience, and I really don't need to be told what won't be helpful to me with respect to these sorts of things.

Not meaning to be rude about this, but coming out with a "daemonic cheese" thread and then running through the overpowered bits of the book, having never played against or with the army, therefore having no actual experience to back up the personal opinion expressed seems a bit incongruous.

fubukii
11-03-2009, 15:11
actually stanks and cannons are amazing vs DOC armies. Granted yes a herald of tz and take lore of metal but casting a 12+ spell on 3d6 is pretty difficult, and when he does casts it you can just scroll or dispel it (unless he IF). It actually wrecks havoc on most doc units, with its impact hits it will wound everything fairly easy (even gd get wounded on a 4+) and having the extra cannon will keep greater daemons in check a bit. Doc also have no shooting to bother the stank as flamers str 4 shots bounce off the t6 and 1+ save

I wouldnt take a mortar vs DOC, most daemon armies dont take enough ranked infantry to make it worth it. Granted though it does work well vs ranked units of horrors, letters, and daemonettes due to thier low toughness, Not so much against plaguebearers though.

- War altars are great vs DOC, unbreakable means you can tarpit better then he can, and his spells are rock solid vs daemons ( both the priests bound and he altars bound) And even if he is avoided by the flying gd, you have effectively created a area on the table where he will not place his greater daemon thus protecting that area. Also if i recall the altar has mr2? which should stop flickering flamers in its tracks.
- Id suggest taking more then 1 cannon. 2-3 probably would be a better investment.
- more swordsmen may help static cr is good vs most doc units ( except bearers)
For your lores it will depend on what the doc have. If they have alot of plague bearers yes shadow is a good lore (pit of shades rocks that unit), but other then that its a weak lore. I find missle spells are your best bet. Whittle down the enemy before they engage then beat them with CR. Lore of fire works good, death can be good. If the doc does not have a bsb strongly consider the lore of light on your level 2 mages, burning gaze is ridiculously powerful vs daemons.
- I wouldnt suggest the flagellants vs doc with thier low ws, and no save they will not last in combat very long. Id drop them to free up points elsewhere.

LooseMoose
11-03-2009, 17:01
Great Unclean Ones

If...

...the GuO stands back it's in a support role, and is likely to be kitted with armour and regen, It may also have a staff and if its stood next to some Nurglings it'll be generating them every turn.

...the GuO is used more aggresively you can guarantee it has a Diresword and either Noxious Vapours (more likely of the two) or Pestilent Mucus. The first option will mean that it will be aimed at anything with more than one wound without being afraid of charges, I wouldn't hesitate to run him at characters in units either knowing he can survive a loss for one turn before backup arrives. If it has Pestilent Mucus it can survive and turn into a veritable nuke. Hide your characters from it at all costs.

All types of GuO tend to be feilded in a Nurgle orientated force with some magic - due to him being the main source. It is however slow (in comparison to other GD's) and quite suceptable to redirection. If it does run at you hit it with everything missile based as it will likely have little protection.

CaliforniaGamer
11-03-2009, 17:12
on a similar note: What are the most common DOC lord choices at 2250 points AND what are the most common kits for those lords.

I would assume most agree with this for a Thirster:
Immortal Fury
Armor of Khorne
Firestorm Blade
Spellbreaker

or rarely Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade, Obsidian Armor.

Malice&Mizery
11-03-2009, 17:31
on a similar note: What are the most common DOC lord choices at 2250 points AND what are the most common kits for those lords.

I would assume most agree with this for a Thirster:
Immortal Fury
Armor of Khorne
Firestorm Blade
Spellbreaker

or rarely Immortal Fury, Firestorm Blade, Obsidian Armor.

I use the latter myself, I like feeling slightly immortal when I fight other characters, so far so good really :)

fubukii
11-03-2009, 22:22
common DOC LORDS

-thrister - Spellbreaker, obsidian armor, Immortal fury ( popular tournament choice -thrister due to firestorm blade being useless vs he players)
-Thrister - firestorm blade, obsidian armor, Fury
-Thrister - Firestorm blade, armor of khorne, scroll, Fury
-Kairos
-Keeper - Siren song, torment blade with other goodies
-Keeper spirit swallower
GUO - balesword, vapors
-GUO - trappings, vapors, mucus
-Lord of change - twin heads, dark magister
-LOC - tzeentches will, Vortex/magister