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Coram_Boy
07-03-2009, 23:10
I'm just interested in the way the game worked then - and to see exactly what 'herohammer' was all about - if the only way to get it is with a bottomless wallet, then I won't be able to afford it (or at least would rather spend the cash on skaven :D), but I don't know - are the rules availible on the 'net? I've had a good look but I haven't found anything so far.
Thanks!

swarmofseals
08-03-2009, 00:13
I can't really help answer your question all that well, but ultimately I don't think you need or want the rulebook to understand why it was called herohammer. Just find any army book from that period and compare the stats and special rules for characters to the current books. The chaos book will be especially enlightening. I wish I had my old copy on hand, but suffice to say that I was really surprised when I saw the statline for the bloodthirster. The old version had like 2 points higher in every stat if I recall correctly!

To give you another example, my Khorne Lord had something like 14 S7 attacks on the charge if I recall correctly from just him, not even counting his mount. This was because there was a battle standard that literally doubled the attacks of the unit (again, my memory might be fuzzy). So if the lord himself didn't tear you up, the battle standard bearer and chaos knights all charging with lances + frenzy attacks x 2 certainly would.

That is herohammer.

selone
08-03-2009, 00:16
Frenzy was double attacks. There used to be more of a range on statlines back then than now, thats true.

Skywave
08-03-2009, 00:34
Also the way you could tool your characters. It was a "number of item" instead of "amount of point", and lord was generally 3 items and mage lord 4 items, lesser character was 1 or 2 items. And there was some scary stuff there (sword that give +3T on a T6 Vampire?), you could easily get 200-300pts of gears, and a dragon (of wich stats where close to 8 everywhere) over all this.

theunwantedbeing
08-03-2009, 00:47
In the 4th/5th edition rulebooks :D

The free way of accessing these rules is to befreind a local gamer who has them. It's worth enquiring at your local store, the staff are quite likely to have such things and will usually be willing to at least let you have a look at them.
Failing that, ebay.

Roxors45
08-03-2009, 00:51
You can also get the 5th edition books on Ebay for dirt cheap and look at the characters and troops. I.E. Teclis and Tyrion O_o

sergio
08-03-2009, 01:28
things i remember:

-minimum of 25% of your total points had to be in troops, max of 25% each of characters, war machines, and monsters. i remember taking great dragons with my dwarfs, haha

-a roll of a 1 on an armor save wasn't an autofail. aka, if you had a character with a 0+ save, he couldnt be hurt by anything less than a S5 attack.

-an organ gun was a 65pt war machine that consisted of 5 cannon barrels. max guess range of 24", but was still S10 and did multiple wounds, and could take runes. i used to take 4. so the enemy was taking 20 cannonball shots on the first turn (and people call it overpowered NOW....)

Magos Explorator
08-03-2009, 10:10
Characters were a maximum of 50%, not 25%, but otherwise that's right.

As has been suggested eBay is a good bet. Failing that I may have a spare copy of the 5th Edition rules.

Griefbringer
08-03-2009, 10:37
And for Bretonnians the characters were 75% maximum.

phoenixlaw
08-03-2009, 13:28
Brettonian Lord on manticore was a pain 4 attacks , Hydra blade (each hit = d6 hits) Something that gave him frenzy (doubles them) Tress of Isoulde (once per game hits and wounds on a 2+

a potential 48 attacks a turn if i remember correctly.

Thats Herohammer

Pilgrim
08-03-2009, 13:57
A Bretonnian Lord on a manticore was a pain; 4 attacks, Hydra Blade (each hit = d6 hits), something that gave him frenzy (doubles them), Tress of Isoulde (once per game hits and wounds on a 2+)

A potential 48 attacks a turn, if I remember correctly.

Thats Herohammer

Well, 8 attacks per turn, and a potential 48 hits. That is, he could only kill 8 things per turn, he would just have a better chance of killing anything he hit, since he would get up to 6 chances to wound each time.

The highest number of attacks possible hovered around the 16 mark, and even then for one turn only. I think my personal record was a Savage Orc Warboss who could manage 22, but then died straight afterwards due to the item combination required.

Of course, these were possible, but by no means ubiquitous. For a look at how more reasonable games of Warhammer used to go under the old system have a look at old White Dwarf battle reports. The Gathering of Might, and the other ones linked to that, are particularly nice examples.

sergio
08-03-2009, 14:36
oh yeah, 50%. its been a while.

also, high elf and dark elf bolt throwers were i think 4 shots. each bolt could penetrate ranks, and there were no armor saves allowed.

a dwarf gyrocopter still had the steam template, but it was no armor save allowed. i remember wiping out entire units of chosen knights and warriors with it.

i dont remember much about the characters specifically, but i do remember kragg the grim riding around on his anvil of doom shooting lightning at everything. he also had like 4 attacks at S10.

Pilgrim
08-03-2009, 14:50
oh yeah, 50%. its been a while.

also, high elf and dark elf bolt throwers were i think 4 shots. each bolt could penetrate ranks, and there were no armor saves allowed.

a dwarf gyrocopter still had the steam template, but it was no armor save allowed. i remember wiping out entire units of chosen knights and warriors with it.

i dont remember much about the characters specifically, but i do remember kragg the grim riding around on his anvil of doom shooting lightning at everything. he also had like 4 attacks at S10.

Elf bolt throwers were allowed a single shot at strength 6, or 4 shots at strength 4.
Armour saves were not allowed, and if they successfully wounded they penetrated to the rank behind at -1 strength (repeating if they continued to successfully wound).

Dwarf Gyrocopters did allow no save, but were only strength 3, limiting the amount of damage they tended to cause.

Both bolt throwers and gyrocopters were, naturally excellent at killing knights and the like, which was the whole point of them.

Kragg the Grimm and his anvil... The anvil was used in the magic phase, just like a normal wizard, so it wasn't really out of the ordinary. As for the rest of his rules, he was a special character, some of which (then as now) had rather extreme powers. Special characters were generally considered to be 'use at own risk', or at least that was the impression given off.

Egrimm van Horstmann was also pretty vicious, as was Lord Kroak, Nagash, and a number of others. They weren't meant to be considered as part of the standard army list, however.

The problems with earlier editions tend to be exaggerated...

enyoss
08-03-2009, 17:31
The highest number of attacks possible hovered around the 16 mark, and even then for one turn only. I think my personal record was a Savage Orc Warboss who could manage 22, but then died straight afterwards due to the item combination required.


Ah, the Savage Orc Warboss, what lovely memories.

One of my regular opponents used to use a Night Goblin battle-standard with the Bad Moon Banner (ASF, could only be carried by Night Goblins), in a unit of savage orcs (frenzy = double attacks) including two savage orc big bosses and a savage orc warboss, usually with the Excecutioners Axe (Killing Blow on 6's to hit).

In a word: Deathsville.

Once we started getting up to games of around 10K you could usually expect to see a front rank of nothing but big bosses, often wielding the odd Dragonslayer, Daemonslayer or Frostblade :cries:

snyggejygge
08-03-2009, 18:11
The old rules themselves weren't that overpowering, the way it turned to herohammer was that you could carry so many expensive items (the limit was a set amount of items instead of a pointsvalue) & everybody (except dwarfs) could ride a monstrous mount (which was scarier than todays monsters).
& ofcourse Frenzy & hatred was way better back then, Frenzy was double the amount of attacks, hatred was re-roll hits in first round & always having a stubborn LD 10 for breaktests.

A few memorable magic items:

Slayer Swords: +3S, each wound = D3 wounds, autowounding either daemons or Dragons. 125 Pts

Death Sword: S10. 100 Pts

Frost Blade: Unsaved Wound autokills. 100 Pts

Executioner's Axe: KB on roll of 6 to hit. 50 Pts

Flail of Skulls: +2S first round, each wound doubled. Only 30 Pts!

Crown of Command: Stubborn LD10. 50 Pts

Van Horstmann's Speculum available to everybody. 35 Pts

Black Gem of Gnar: Could lock an enemy model in time. 25 Pts

Black Amulet: 4+ ward that rebounded hits, was toned down a little in 5:th edition. 50 Pts

Golden Crown of Atrazar: 3+ ward, if you saved more than 2 wounds in a single phase it was destroyed. 50 Pts

Jade Amulet: 2+ Ward against a single wound (only available in 5:th edition). 5 Pts!

Talisman of Obsidian: Character & unit he joins is immune to ALL magic, wizards in BSB contact couldnīt cast spells. 100 Pts

Banner of Defiance: doube rank bonus, can't pursue. 50 Pts

Banner of Might: +1 to hit. 50 Pts

Standard of shielding: +1 to armoursave, always works on a roll of 6 (also toned down a little in 5:th edition). 25 Pts

Lastly all magic was way more powerful back then.

Storak
08-03-2009, 18:21
people have already told you the most important things. herohammer was caused by the choice rules: 50% chars, 3 items, some of them costing 150 points and in general char stats were higher (in general, it was +1 to every stat for the hero and +2 for lords)

a typical lord would be frenzy (8+ attacks), T+3 (offhand sword !!! so typically T8) and with a serious ward save (3+ or black amulet, 4+ rebounding wounds..)

magic was different as well. the typical magic missile was 2d6 S4 hits with no armour saves.

and very few troops had more than 1 attack. (frenzy actually was the only thing, and this mostly gave 4..)

games became herohammer, because most troops wouldn t survive the barrage of 10 cannons. while the cannon balls bounced of chars with T9 and a serious ward..

"flying high" allowed characters to land where ever they wanted, ignoring the shooting mostly.

Commissar Vaughn
08-03-2009, 18:31
Tress of Isoulde, virtue of knightly temper and any sword that caused multiple hit/wounds (venom sword, hydra sword, rending sword, the slayer swords etc etc there were a fair few!) on a bretonnian lord could rip apart a couple of bloodthirsters in a single round of h2h and thats when the thirster had a row of 10s on his profile...

Van horstmans and frostblade was one of my favs.

Black amulet was available to all at 50points, so the golden crown which gave a 3+ ward...fortunatly after 5th ed both had a chance of being drained by use!

Armour of brilliance was popular around here, 3+ armour save and -2 to hit wearer, would take most charcters well out of reach of anything except an even better hero with something like blade of darting steel(autohits iirc) .

And monsters were better, and all armies ahd access to almost the full range of manticores, dragons(3 levels!), griffons, hydras scorpions, chimeras etc.
and you could spend half your army on characters, only one lord though any number of wizard lords, and another 25% on unridden monsters and warmachines.

Has anyone tried to pit a 5th ed army against a 6th or later army?
If it was allowed access to some of the old spells equipment and magic weapons even the weakest army ever (in 5th ed Empire was seriously underpowered!) would probably give a good show against a modern opponent, even deamons, as theyd have access to more specialist tools from the Magic supplement.

Edit: just been looking through my old empire and Dark elf books: cavalry seems to have cost a fair bit more, so do characters tho they tend to be harder, though equipment tends to be cheaper(2pts for a greatsword or pistol!) Infantry, warmachines and monsters tend to be about the same on average.
Oh and magic wise: Deathfrost Ice Magic spell : roll 2d6 and the target takes the difference between the 2 in s10 hits...if its a double add them together! I dont think my brother ever got over the 12 s10 hits I planted on Prince Tyrion with total power.

kyussinchains
15-03-2009, 00:55
Ah, the Savage Orc Warboss, what lovely memories.

One of my regular opponents used to use a Night Goblin battle-standard with the Bad Moon Banner (ASF, could only be carried by Night Goblins), in a unit of savage orcs (frenzy = double attacks) including two savage orc big bosses and a savage orc warboss, usually with the Excecutioners Axe (Killing Blow on 6's to hit).

In a word: Deathsville.

Once we started getting up to games of around 10K you could usually expect to see a front rank of nothing but big bosses, often wielding the odd Dragonslayer, Daemonslayer or Frostblade :cries:

ah I remember looking over at you confidently charging a large unit of dragon princes in the front, two big units of silverhelms in the sides accompanied by a pair of elf lords riding griffons.....

I then remember you staring at around 20 dead knights including your battle standard bearer, a pair of griffons missing their heads and the butchered remains of the elf lords riding them.... you then looked at me and reminded me that it was YOU that charged.....

edit: I think the most attacks possible was a lord of khorne (5A frenzy = 10A) with the blood rage of khorne (+1A, +2 on charge, explicitly stated that it doubled with frenzy to +2/+4) blade of leaping gold (+3 attacks) an extra hand weapon (+1) and the potion of battle (+D6 extra attacks, one use, died at end of combat phase if you rolled a six) on charge he'd have between 19 and 25 attacks assuming he used the potion of battle!

Unclejo
15-03-2009, 04:45
My favourite herohammer character was Chaos Lord of Khorne (10 attacks with Frenzy iirc) with a Hydrablade (each hit turns into D6 hits) and a Chaos Runeshield (Magic weapons don't work). He would make mincemeat out of anything and everything.

Volker the Mad Fiddler
15-03-2009, 06:21
SNIP
and very few troops had more than 1 attack. (frenzy actually was the only thing, and this mostly gave 4..)
SNIP

Actually, flagellants were Ws 3, Str 4, Tou 4, flails [I think], and 2 attacks for 10 points each. Of course, the Empire characters were quite weak and so the army list was considered one of the weaker ones [part of the reason I chose to play them] even though it included Kislev troops, halflings, Ogres and some Dwarfs.

mweaver
15-03-2009, 06:54
Sounds like the current rules are much improved.

My experience is that the old rulebooks and codex books go for cheap when you see them in second-hand stores or look for them on eBay.

Urgat
15-03-2009, 09:07
White Emperor Dragon's breath: on a 4+, it did a wound or something to anything under the breath template. That's the bonus part.
The interesting bit: anything under the breath template couldn't move the next turn (prevented shooting too iirc). Nope, no need to roll, it juast has to be touched by the template :D
The ultimate weapon I tell you

Shiodome
15-03-2009, 09:27
herohammer was the current edition when i left the hobby (not out of any problem with the rules, just did other stuff for a few years :P), now coming back to the hobby they're my most recent gaming memories and result in me making some very 'odd' assumptions during games while i learn the new rules.

my opponent certainly didn't like my 'old' interpretation of frenzy on my savage orc big boss ;) my last army before leaving was skaven... and i've very fond memories of plague monk characters with skavenbrew and whatever the spell is that allowed double attacks+movement (memory fails me). the effects all applied to the unit two... so a whole front rank of frenzied guys with their attacks doubled twice wielding flails, ah happy days.

i think it's an improvement toning down the characters/items. it seems to me that the first army books in the current cycle (i'm assuming O&G is one?) they reined everything back in and really cut down the power of items etc, and have slowly been releasing the reigns ever since. i look at the magic items in the newer books with melancholy desire :( i haven't read every current book though, so would anyone else agree with this having read them all?

O&G'sRule
15-03-2009, 15:03
O&G's was the 1st one yes, though they've since realised we want background in our army books so it does look a little out of date. Compared to 4th ed yes, everything has been reigned in big time. If you want a shock, go look at the bloodthirsters stats now. You can't fly high anymore either

Nuada
15-03-2009, 15:37
My favourite herohammer character was Chaos Lord of Khorne (10 attacks with Frenzy iirc) with a Hydrablade (each hit turns into D6 hits) and a Chaos Runeshield (Magic weapons don't work). He would make mincemeat out of anything and everything.

I remember him, but i think it was magic items didn't work (i think)

My opponent used to have a chaos army, and put that guy on a manticore (str7, T 7 ). Then fly high with him and a bloodthirster, and charge anything on the field and kill it. My toughness 10 dwarf was killed so easily. We both used to take very cheesy armies though :)

Shiodome
15-03-2009, 18:14
i never minded 'fly high' as skaven had an item which prevented it :P

Arnizipal
15-03-2009, 18:51
I'm just interested in the way the game worked then - and to see exactly what 'herohammer' was all about - if the only way to get it is with a bottomless wallet, then I won't be able to afford it (or at least would rather spend the cash on skaven :D), but I don't know - are the rules availible on the 'net? I've had a good look but I haven't found anything so far.
Thanks!
I posted an overview of the ruleschanges from 7th to 5th a while back (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76092#post1414817). Could be of interest to you.

O&G'sRule
15-03-2009, 19:13
i never minded 'fly high' as skaven had an item which prevented it :P

You mean the orb of thunder? wasn't just skaven. I think high magic had something that did it too, maybe skaven magic did can't remember

snyggejygge
15-03-2009, 20:11
I remember him, but i think it was magic items didn't work (i think)

My opponent used to have a chaos army, and put that guy on a manticore (str7, T 7 ). Then fly high with him and a bloodthirster, and charge anything on the field and kill it. My toughness 10 dwarf was killed so easily. We both used to take very cheesy armies though :)


Nope, only magic weapons...

There was a cheezy thing you could do that negated all items though, you could take Sword of Destruction (magic items in BSB contact didn't work, each time you wounded the enemy you could destroy a magic item on a roll of 4+), the downside of this weapon was that you couldn't use any other magic items, use Chaos Gifts instead & problem is solved;) (usually you'd take Regeneration & Iron Hard skin), then mount him on a manticore or chimera.
Result: 11 S5 attacks (frenzy & additional handweapon), 7 S7 attacks, opponents magic items didn't work (so at best he had a 4+ armoursave & nothing else) & both a 4+ ward as well as regeneration to save against the opponents attacks should he survive.

O&G'sRule
15-03-2009, 20:25
Chaos gifts back then weren't "taken" by choice, you had a stack of them and picked 2 a turn and had to apply them good or bad

snyggejygge
15-03-2009, 22:46
Yeah I know, meant Chaos rewards, same sh1t different name, no need to point it out because I wrote gifts instead of rewards, it still works...

Lord0rcus
16-03-2009, 13:16
Treemen and the steam tank were T7. There was a fly low and fly high rule. As a rule, core troops were much weaker than they are in 7th. Daemons had an animosity table if they came from different gods, they might charge & fight each other. If your general was slain, your entire army had to take a panic test. Magic was a separate card game where you collected power cards to cast spells. GW had an annoying habit of keeping information like magic items and spells on cards (which kept getting lost) instead of having them in the rulebooks. Frenzy on core troops doubled your attacks, but on characters you rolled 2d6 for the maximum of attacks you had for frenzy.

There were very few army specific magic items, but dozens of general magic items any army could take. You were limited by the number of items you could take instead of the point cost. You didn't have the separation between fighty characters and casters, so your general could do both. 5th ed was the "herohammer" days people refer to since characters could become so powerful.

snottlebocket
16-03-2009, 13:34
If you want a nice example, frenzy back then doubled your attacks. The hydra blade turned each hit into d6 hits. Consequently my Khorne lord could do a potential of 60 strength 5 hits on his own. (5 attacks base, 10 with frenzy, each hit multiplying by d6)

In the same army I had a unit of beastmen, basic beastmen had 2 wounds and toughness 4. They were lead by a sorcerer using the cloak of mist and shadows (immune to mundane attacks) the chaos runeshield (magic weapons count as mundane weapons) and the crown of command. (leadership tests are taken on an unmodified leadership of 10)

The bloodthirster cost 450 points for 10 attacks with d3 wounds, one regular attack at a weaponskill of 10. (possibly a strength 10 to, I can't remember) All flying creatures could choose to fly high. Basically you remove them from the table during your movement phase. Next movement phase they come crashing down from the skies and you can place them anywhere on the table, including in combat which counts as charging. Flying creatures that are flying high can exchange blows and shoot at other creatures flying high, one of the most amusing item's in the game was a scroll called bufo's hex scroll, it temporarily turned a model into a frog with a stat line of all 1's and no special rules. A minor nuisance on the ground, but turning someones mount into a frog while flying high caused them to go plummeting down towards a messy instant death.

Chimera
16-03-2009, 13:54
I used to like taking an Empire Wizard with a handgun.

In one game a High Elf wizard dispelled most of his spells, then used the Escape Magic card (if your wizard dies he teleports to safety with 1 wound left) to get away from my guy's Total Power-ed Fireball.

In the subsequent shooting phase my wizard shot the High Elf wizard in the head with his handgun.

'Dispel THIS... *BOOM* *thud*'

The game was completely broken - but it did have its moments :)

BenTheRat
16-03-2009, 15:27
I can't believe no one has yet mentioned the Forbidden Rod. Which was the one item many tournaments disallowed. I still remember reading, "as is its name, the forbidden rod is forbidden."

Allowed you to cast 1 spell a turn with total power, which was IF then. You took a wound, so you just take a magic item that gives you back a wound every turn. Amber amulet or something.

At the end of 5th, when 6th was coming out the next week, we ran a "cheese fest" tournament to bring a close to the 5th ed rules. 3 forbidden rods showed up and 2 of them came in 1st and 2nd.

My favorite moment of all time in 5th was Blood Thirster charged my Skaven warlord with Executioners axe, black amulet (4+ ward, rebound) and armor fortune (4+ armor, 5+ ward), yea multiple wards were allowed. He charged 24" on the top of turn 1. (fly was 24" back then.) I had frenzy and hatred with skavenbrew carried by another character. But we failed our fear test, so I needed 6's to hit him. (frenzy did not make you immune to fear, IIRC) With his 11 attacks, he hits 9 times, wounds 8. I save 6 of them with my double wards.
His 2 wounds, he gets d3 wounds each, and rolls 2 1's and I live.
With my 8 attacks, I need 6's to hit, fail to hit even 1 time. But because of hatred, get to re-roll all of them. Roll a 6 the 2nd time and auto-kill the blood thirster.

He was so pissed he went and cried to the tournament organizer to let us restart our game. :)

snottlebocket
16-03-2009, 17:30
I used to like taking an Empire Wizard with a handgun.

In one game a High Elf wizard dispelled most of his spells, then used the Escape Magic card (if your wizard dies he teleports to safety with 1 wound left) to get away from my guy's Total Power-ed Fireball.

In the subsequent shooting phase my wizard shot the High Elf wizard in the head with his handgun.

'Dispel THIS... *BOOM* *thud*'

The game was completely broken - but it did have its moments :)

Haha, if I remember right dwarf runes didn't specify being melee weapons only. At some point I saw a guy at a tourney who had a dwarf hero with a handgun that shot down a griffon in one shot. I loved the mental image of that.

O&G'sRule
17-03-2009, 00:11
The black gem of gnar was the most overpowered item in the game imo (in a game riddled with overpowered items). The number of times my goblin hero on a wolf used to take out 500+ point characters for whole games was ridiculous, all for 35pts.

selone
17-03-2009, 00:54
I posted an overview of the ruleschanges from 7th to 5th a while back (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76092#post1414817). Could be of interest to you.

this is pretty useful for people like myself, cheers

Urgat
17-03-2009, 09:39
Back then, orc&gob shamans had to to remain within a small range of a 10+ strong orc or 20 strong gob unit to be able to cast spells, and blorcs had only light armour.
Yup, we've always been the loved childs of warhammer :p

Wyvern was nice against low initiative enemies, though. Now it's just crap, having the stinger rule replaced by poison.

Unclejo
17-03-2009, 12:40
They were lead by a sorcerer using the cloak of mist and shadows (immune to mundane attacks)

Forgot about that little doozy, I have fond memories of an Amber Mage Lord running around hurling spears and being completely immune to enemy reprisals. Also gave you a 24" move iirc?

noneshallpass!
17-03-2009, 22:14
In the end we used some tournament rules to stay clear of the sickest characters and combos.. Only one magic item on a character, and it was up to 50p only. And only special characters cheaper than 200p.

I would not mind playing more 5th ed games with those rules. Cavalry might have been more rightly priced back then compared to now.