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Daemonvamp
07-03-2009, 22:53
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My battle report on My DoC vs Lizards 2250. First, thank all of u for your help in answering my questons on how to kill a stegedon.

I ran my skulltaker on a juggernaut in a unit of 8 Hounds. And The unclean one as my general. with the masque and a herald in a unit of daemonettes, and a unit of bloodletters and 3 flamers. As I figured he ran 2 stegedons (this was what a I was worried about...especially with that engine that i hate so much). He protected his stegedons very well on deployment making me go the long way around to try to get to him with my skulltaker. I ran into hisgeneral that was in a unit ( I do not know what they were...something on saurus). the skulltaker and the hounds made very easy work of them, skulltaker challenged the general, he foolishly accepted and was dipensed with on a killing blow. the hounds killed a bunch and they broke because I lowered their leadership by 3 with the dance from the masque...i overran them and wiped them out. leaving me behind his stededons, because they moved up in the previous phase. My bloodletters overrun his skinks and ran into another unit that I do not know, but the bloodletters were flanked by the first stegedn and they wiped out my blood letters. I then came up behind the unit that wiped out the bloodletters...the stegedon failed to hold and was now in front of his other unit. My skulltaker and hounds beat up that unit that they charged easily and when they fled they pursued and overran them and running right into the stegadon. On the nest turn Skulltaker chalenged the priest must accept skulltaker wiped out the stegedon on the first blow because of his killing blow. Goodbye steggie and the skinks riding it. The priest is now running. After his other stegadon ripped through my unit od daemonettes which were also in a battle and very out numbered his other stegadon charged into my skulltaker. after no charge impact hits my skulltaker dipensed of him as well...goodbye to the other steggie. If you are keeping count he now has no general, no steggies, no cold ones or sauruses left. At the end of 6 rounds I still had my general, skulltaker with a few hounds. he just had a large unit of skinks with 3 large Kroxidors (I think thats what they are called) I think I can say that I came out on top.

Thank u all

Nicha11
07-03-2009, 23:25
Good to see some Warseer advice being used only one piece of advice.

Please paragraph.

Thargur
08-03-2009, 17:57
The only real protection Lizzies has vs KB is the Amulet of Itzl combined with a high armor; let's says -1+ AS (or 0+ as Scar Vet)... it really sux and only works against the 1st hit that penetrates armor on top of that... But still the best protection you can and should get for Oldbloods...

/Thargur

MalusCalibur
08-03-2009, 18:29
I ran my skulltaker on a juggernaut in a unit of 8 Hounds.


the hounds killed a bunch and they broke because I lowered their leadership by 3 with the dance from the masque...i overran them and wiped them out.

*Sigh*. Are there no DoC players other than myself who DON'T use the clearly broken special characters?
And TWO of them in a single game? Frankly, I don't think you can make any claim to the victory you achieved in this match...


MalusCalibur

Staurikosaurus
08-03-2009, 20:09
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On the nest turn Skulltaker chalenged the priest must accept skulltaker wiped out the stegedon on the first blow because of his killing blow.

How exactly did this happen?

Kerill
08-03-2009, 20:28
Skulltaker gets killing blow against any size target when in a challenge.

Thargur
08-03-2009, 21:24
I never really played with special characters - even though the fluff is nice for some of them I always found it more interesting to make my own combinations...

And as MalusCalibur said: some of them are broken - tbh it's most of them in the new books... just can't see the fun in it then...

Malorian
09-03-2009, 18:48
Skulltaker is nasty against things like mounted stegadons.

Don't be surprised if your opponent starts taking things just to counter him.

Draeven
09-03-2009, 22:10
So the question i have , are Doc only broken when combined with their special characters ? I have never played against deamons so i have no frame of reference. I have heard people complain about heralds otehr then that im clueless.

MalusCalibur
09-03-2009, 22:19
So the question i have , are Doc only broken when combined with their special characters ? I have never played against deamons so i have no frame of reference. I have heard people complain about heralds otehr then that im clueless.

The special characters are a big part of the complaints, but by the same token are easily solved by simply not taking them (they are boring and clearly far too good for their points, in almost every case).

The other complaints stem from the supposed 'uber-list', comprised of small Horror units, a BT/LoC, Flesh Hounds, Flamers, and an almost unbreakable block of Plaguebearers (Nurgle Herald BSB inside). This is also easily solved by the Daemon player collecting to a theme, or by limiting his choices, even if only a little, to avoid the aforementioned uber list.
In my mind though, a Daemon player should field whichever units he likes the most, for whatever reason. If they are painted and/or converted well, it shows that the player is not simply playing Daemons for the power of the list. This is what I believe the biggest problem with Daemons is, and how they have generated so much hate and cries of cheese: a small number of WAAC players who utilise the 'uberlist', and play Daemons simply because it allows them to win more easily than with, say, Empire or Skaven.

The final complaint stems from the free ability to mix different gods, which is apparently 'unfluffy'. This is, however, baseless. The DoC book itself is resplendent with examples of the bitter rivalry the gods have with each other: the only difference now is that the rules have been streamlined to give Daemon players more choice, rather than being limited to only one gods unit (a paltry selection, really) and Furies.
This mixing can lend itself to the aforementioned 'uberlist', though.

My personal solution, for my first DoC army anyway, was to collect and ally the two gods I like the most: Slaanesh and Khorne. A few nasty tricks, but no Horrors, Flesh Hounds, Plaguebearers, or Flamers in sight.

Hope that helps,


MalusCalibur

Draeven
09-03-2009, 22:29
thats a great insight, so what makes flesh hounds so nasty ? I know if I was rolling doc, i be about the Plague bearers, and Bloood letters with of course the demon cavalry cause i love me some juggernauts. Prolly a unit of furies for march blocking and warmachine crew harrassing.

I have a friend who no matter what he plays he can't choose a list thats just for fun or themed it has to be the most competative list as possible. Like i was playing my old Tk ary rolled a tk and 3 priests, so he figures oh its magic so he rolled 3 casters in his WoC army and just rolled me. Just because i was taking 3 magic users before he relized how non "offensive" Tk magic is compared to other magics.

Kalec
09-03-2009, 22:47
And as MalusCalibur said: some of them are broken - tbh it's most of them in the new books... just can't see the fun in it then...

If "new books" means just the DoC book, then you would be correct.

But it doesn't.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
09-03-2009, 22:57
If "new books" means just the DoC book, then you would be correct.

But it doesn't.

From my understanding, "new books" means Vampire Counts, Daemons and Dark Elves (Dark Elves by merit of flying Assassins, Cauldrons, Hydras, Black Guard, etc, and Vampire Counts by merit of...well, they're Vampire Counts). A lot of players agree that those three books really pushed the metagame, and can really be turned into nasty WAAC armies. Whether or not they are intrinsically broken in and of themselves, however, is debatable.

In regards to Malus' comments, I agree: cheese is simply relative to army build. No one, for example, brands mono-god armies as cheese, or decries Beasts of Nurgle as horribly overpowered. Similarly, I never hear complaints about DE and Vampires when there is a distinct lack of Assassins, Hydras, or Drakenhoff Banners on the field, so maybe the "cheese" in all three books is just limited to a specific selection of units and items.

Nabeshin1106
09-03-2009, 22:57
I agree with MalusCalibur that limiting yourself to 1 or 2 Gods is one of the best ways to keep your list from being too OP. I run a mono-Slaanesh army about 75% of the time, and mix a small amount of Nurgle into the other 25%. Limiting your army choice seems to keep things fairly balanced, although I have little experience with large Khorne or Tzeentch forces, so I can't say how they are.

As to SCs, I only use The Masque in anything like a regular fashion, and I tend to find her not doing much other than rushing warmachines or marchblocking units. The LD/M debuffer isn't very consistent.

EvC
09-03-2009, 23:56
If you combine the Masque with a terror-causing Greater Daemon, while playing against an army that is vulnerable to psychology, then simply put, you are the problem with warhammer today :)

Kalec
10-03-2009, 02:44
From my understanding, "new books" means Vampire Counts, Daemons and Dark Elves (Dark Elves by merit of flying Assassins, Cauldrons, Hydras, Black Guard, etc, and Vampire Counts by merit of...well, they're Vampire Counts). A lot of players agree that those three books really pushed the metagame, and can really be turned into nasty WAAC armies. Whether or not they are intrinsically broken in and of themselves, however, is debatable.

In regards to Malus' comments, I agree: cheese is simply relative to army build. No one, for example, brands mono-god armies as cheese, or decries Beasts of Nurgle as horribly overpowered. Similarly, I never hear complaints about DE and Vampires when there is a distinct lack of Assassins, Hydras, or Drakenhoff Banners on the field, so maybe the "cheese" in all three books is just limited to a specific selection of units and items.


And how many of these are special characters?

Also, as an aside, mono-Tzeentch gets called cheesy all the time, and actually works better with a regular LoC then Kairos (for the combat power).

- Human
10-03-2009, 04:05
The final complaint stems from the free ability to mix different gods, which is apparently 'unfluffy'. This is, however, baseless. The DoC book itself is resplendent with examples of the bitter rivalry the gods have with each other: the only difference now is that the rules have been streamlined to give Daemon players more choice, rather than being limited to only one gods unit (a paltry selection, really) and Furies.


Sorry, but the mixing of gods is in fact UNfluffy. Yes, we know that the new daemon book cites examples of why the gods would work together. But the fact is that pretty much every book preceding this DoC book has said the opposite - particularly the earliest Chaos books which are pretty much regarded as the place to go for good information on Chaos. The fluff from early times until the DoC book has made it very clear that the gods are constantly at each others' throats. This is why most veteran gamers don't take the new fluff very well... It goes against everything that was written before it, just to make this army work on the tabletop.

Lord of Nonsensical Crap
10-03-2009, 14:08
And how many of these are special characters?
.

I dunno. As far as I can see, it's only the Daemon special characters that get branded with a big cheddar label. I never hear of anyone complaining about the Vampire or Dark Elf special characters (except Shadowblade, but then people have always been complaining about Shadowblade, it seems)

EvC
10-03-2009, 14:15
Daemon special characters are generally horrific- the ones you see on the tabletop, that is. Skarbrand, Kugath and others that you've probably never seen fielded? Well, that's because they're not broken. Daemons are clearly the most powerful army list in the game, that should encourage people who love the army to come up with glorious themed armies that don't insist on including all the broken stuff... but no, instead most Daemon players just mix and match and throw in as many of the broken special characters as they can. Other books' special characters don't compare to them, either.

blackjack
10-03-2009, 14:16
With the possible exception of manfried none of the Vamp spechial chars are worth their points.

I have fought against Shadow blade run by many diffrent opponents in many diffrent armies he very rarely makes his points back. His biggiest contribution is usually to hold up a critical unit for a few turns. With Lizardmen I love to bane head him and drain his life as soon as he appears as he is almost always outside the hotek bubble.

Briohmar
10-03-2009, 14:25
*Sigh*. Are there no DoC players other than myself who DON'T use the clearly broken special characters?
And TWO of them in a single game? Frankly, I don't think you can make any claim to the victory you achieved in this match...


MalusCalibur


I don't ever use Special characters, so no, you're not the only one. That may be a little OTT however, as the opponent in question was using two Stegs with EoTGs. Clearly the Lizard player was tooled up to beat the Daemons, so it was quite possiblly an even chance of the Daemons losing.