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isaac
08-03-2009, 09:38
(I hope this isn't in the wrong area)

Our friendly local gaming store (FLGS) is going out of business before the end of the month.

The worst part is why it is going out of business. No, it is not due to lack of interest. It may have not been doing that well, with the current economic situation, but it was persevering.

It is because an "official" Games Workshop store is opening. Well, was there a gap in the market?, you might ask. No, our FLGS sold 40k, Fantasy, LoTR, etc. from Games Workshop and hosted tournaments, paint sessions, had a game room, etc.

So, they had everything an official GW store could offer, but wait there's more!

They also were the only place to get RPG books, Magic (along with other TGCs), board games, other miniatures (non-GW ones), dice, painting supplies, etc.

And they always had some good deals on older minis and were always helpful and informative. In addition to the manyother other deals they had.

And now it is going out of business, because the GW store came in and is crowding the market.

What are your thoughts on this? Has this also happened to you?

(Note: My city is just big enough to support one of each geeky store (comic, sci-fi/fantasy, RPG/TGC/TT, etc.), but no more than that.)

(Note: Other stores have board games too, but the FLGS also had harder to find ones. And I can order some RPG books from a normal bookstore, but then I have to place a special order and they can't give me advice on which books to buy.)


Ist Games Workshop an der Schließung des Sturmdrachen Schuld ?

Is Games Workshop responsible for the closing of Sturmdrache?

Die Antwort ist ein klares Jein.

The answer is a clear yes-no (a bit of a joke as "Jein" is not clear)

Nein, GW ist nicht daran Schuld, denn bereits vor der Eröffnung ihrer Freiburger Filiale standen wir auf der Kippe.

No, GW is not the fault that we were already not doing that well, before GW opened a branch here in Freiburg.

Noch Ende 2006 hätten wir kräftig geschluckt, die Zähne zusammengebissen und weitergemacht.

If it happened in 2006, we would have pressed forward and kept on going

2009 sieht die Sachlage allerdings etwas anders aus.

In 2009 though, it is a different situation

Ob man jedoch die Entscheidung, ausgerechnet hier in Freiburg in dieser allgemein schlechten wirtschaftlichen Situation einen Hobby Store zu eröffnen, obwohl bereits ein engagierter Händler mit dem man einen überdurchschnittlich hohen Jahresumsatz erzielt vor Ort ist und mit dem man zwangsläufig auch in eine Mitbewerbersituation tritt,
als ein Ja ansehen kann…

(Oh je, German sentences can be long at times, but persevere with me)

The summary is, that they [GW] decided to open a store, in small city, during a bad economic time, while there is already a store [FLGS] that sells a lot of their [GW] products, and that they are stepping in to be a competitor, could be seen as yes.

Letzten Endes bleibt eine Meinungsbildung jedem selbst überlassen.

Of course, in the end, you are free to form your own opinion

The translation is not perfect, but I hope it gets the gist across.

For more info http://www.sturmdrache.de/

My main question here is, why would GW open a store in a small city that already has a FLGS that sells their products? Especially in this sort of economic period. I can't foresee them making more money, especially because they are only selling one product line, while the FLGS had more things with which they supplemented their income. If they had decided to open a store after the FLGS closed, they would get a better reception, but several players I know are boycotting the store and will only buy online for future purchases due to them being the final push that killed the FLGS.

KidDiscordia
09-03-2009, 20:25
From what I have heard, that is their usual method. Look for locations where existing store(s) are doing well and they add a store. Shortly afterward, the non-GW stores begin to have difficulties getting stock. The GW store will get it before them and be able to leverage the initial "must-have" surge to their advantage.

Sorry to hear that it is happen where you are at.

isaac
10-03-2009, 01:00
What makes it worse, is that they were having some financial problems (especially with a lot of of products coming from the US/the dollar-euro exchange led to people going online to buy stuff to save an euro or two) but could have gone on, but then GW pushed them off the cliff.

I admit, rarely I did buy some things online (no GW stuff though). But I gave most of my business to the FLGS.

But really, wouldn't they be worse off than the FLGS, they are putting the store even closer to the main downtown hub (with presumably higher rent) and only selling one line of VERY specialty products (I know plenty of geeks who play RPGs and/or Magic and have absolutely no interest in TT) and do not have any income from RPGs, novels, board games, TCGs, other TT, etc.

Griefbringer
10-03-2009, 19:38
and do not have any income from RPGs, novels, board games, TCGs, other TT, etc.

Don't GW stores stock a small supply of BL novels?

I would presume that the idea in the minds of the retail management is that a GW store will be more effective means of recruiting new players to GW games than an independent store, thus increasing the customer base for GW games in the long term.

Similarly, a reduction in the local supply of other competing games (from other manufacturers) due to the demise of an indie store might help to increase the customer base for GW games (with fewer products that people would be exposed to, more likely that they would pick GW).

EmperorNorton
10-03-2009, 20:47
I've read that GW wants to open 30 new stores in Germany within the next three years, so this will probably happen in other cities.
Why would any of the regular customers from an established FLGS take their business to the new GW store, though?
I certainly wouldn't if they opened one in my hometown.

isaac
10-03-2009, 23:40
Many of them are not going to. myself included. If they had opened after the store had died (by its own means, not GW's) and then set up shop, opinion may have been different. But as it currently stands, I think a good deal of gamers will have nothing to do with the store and order only online. The thing that kept me from shopping online was that I wanted to support my local FLGS.

isaac
10-03-2009, 23:43
Don't GW stores stock a small supply of BL novels?

I don't know, but our FLGS had the warhammer novels, DSA novels and some other ones.


I would presume that the idea in the minds of the retail management is that a GW store will be more effective means of recruiting new players to GW games than an independent store, thus increasing the customer base for GW games in the long term.

Similarly, a reduction in the local supply of other competing games (from other manufacturers) due to the demise of an indie store might help to increase the customer base for GW games (with fewer products that people would be exposed to, more likely that they would pick GW).

I can sort of see the point there, but it really is an underhanded business tactic that has a very high chance of backfiring on them.

Melchor
10-03-2009, 23:51
[...]
Why would any of the regular customers from an established FLGS take their business to the new GW store, though?
[...]

My thoughts exactly.

Before my 'local' GW opened it's doors, there was one small shop in the same town that sold GW products. They didn't carry every item and didn't have a gaming area. When the GW store opened they stopped carrying the GW stock because the GW store was just 'better'.

In your case, if the FLGS is just as 'good' as the GW store, why would anyone go to the GW-store?

isaac
11-03-2009, 00:56
Because the FLGS wasn't doing so well (but still there) and after GW opened their store, they didn't think they could go on, the GW store would take away enough of their business/as was mentioned earlier, the FLGS might not be getting as many shipments and on time, etc. So, they decided to throw the towel in

So now the GW store is the only 'local' option.

Melchor
11-03-2009, 01:22
So basically it's a 'dying' store that's not quite dead just yet and while it's about to exhale it's proverbial final breath a GW-store opens in the vicinity?

isaac
11-03-2009, 01:54
No, it was a store who wasn't doing so well, but still there (the problems were only due to the economic problems (and the dollar-euro exchange) and raising of taxes, and wasn't helped by people buying online (to save a couple euros). And then comes GW, which decides to open a store and make sure there would be no chance whatsoever that the FLGS could pull itself of the slump.

Read my first post again.

Melchor
11-03-2009, 03:16
I re-read your first post and your first reply to my post and it still seems like the FLGS was 'killed' by the economy and people buying on-line instead of supporting their local FLGS.

And THEN a GW-store came along...

You seem to imply that GW purposely came in and decided to kill off your FLGS. Which seems to me it didn't as the FLGS was already dying because of economic malaise and people buying on-line.

isaac
11-03-2009, 03:43
Sorry about the confusion, it wasn't dying but it wasn't doing too well either and then when GW moved in, that was when they realized they couldn't go on, because they were not in a state to handle the competition.

the1stpip
11-03-2009, 10:34
No, it happened here in Lincoln some ten years ago.

We had a fantastic Game Store, pure GW, but then they stopped getting their stock whn GW moved in.

To be fair, the two owners got jobs with GW, including Steve Hambrook who worked for the Journal before he died.

yabbadabba
11-03-2009, 11:27
Sorry Isaac, while I appreciate the unfortunate circumstances, any FLGS that relies on one product to make it's margins is going to suffer anyway. Online competitors, new businesses, the main product becoming unfashionable. The list goes on. The fact that the FLGS could have competed with GW via discounts etc could have been a good reason to stick around.

GW didn't close the FLGS, the FLGS did.

Melchor
11-03-2009, 11:54
Which is what I was trying to say...

isaac
11-03-2009, 14:55
But you have to realize that this is a small city.

You know the saying.

"This town ain't big enough for the two of us"

There was only room for one gaming store and GW is not going to let their store go under..

Corver
11-03-2009, 14:56
Hey long time no see melchor. i didnt make th Gt last year.

I have seen this happen twice before. There was a good indy store in eastbourne that started getting supply issues, GW getting harsh on payments then when the store died GW moved into town.

The 2nd time in kingston the GW opened within sight of the indy store. and again the owner hated the way he was suddenly treated. so much so that he put a huge 10% off GW products sign in the window!

Now i pray that GW dont do the same to my local store here. Its a great shop with about 10 6x4 tables and late night gaming till the early hours (if you play the owner, or he is about)

isaac
11-03-2009, 18:05
I think that also contributed to them closing, GW would value their 'official' stores more than indy ones and in a battle of distribution, we would see who would win out (GW). Though I did think my city was too small to support a GW store, I guess time will tell...

isaac
11-03-2009, 18:14
Sorry Isaac, while I appreciate the unfortunate circumstances, any FLGS that relies on one product to make it's margins is going to suffer anyway. Online competitors, new businesses, the main product becoming unfashionable. The list goes on. The fact that the FLGS could have competed with GW via discounts etc could have been a good reason to stick around.

GW didn't close the FLGS, the FLGS did.

They didn't rely solely on it, but it was a big part of the income.

And what if we apply your argument to GW stores, they are focused on only one product line to meet their margins. They have nothing to supplement it. How will they succeed, when other stores had problems?

Corrode
11-03-2009, 18:54
I'm not understanding the problem here. GW moved into an area, taking advantage of the fact that the local store was already struggling to keep its head above water, and now have a shop which sells their own product whilst having killed off access to competition. It's not exactly nice of them, but then it's not an uncommon business tactic - Starbucks are famed for opening multiple stores in close proximity to kill off 'local' shops. It's how capitalism works - if the FLGS was that much better than the GW store, it would have stayed open. It's not, so it's gone.

Llew
11-03-2009, 20:09
I suspect if we replaced "FLGS" with "local mom-and-pop grocery", and replaced "GW" with "Wal-Mart", some people would be less supportive of the new store.

However, yes. It is how capitalism works. Unless GW was going to do underhanded things to his supply chain, if he has been providing good service, he should be able to hold on. And frankly, GW couldn't even really compete on price if he didn't want them to. (GW is famous for their great deals, remember?)

Honestly, it sounds like he was getting tired of the struggle to keep his store open and took advantage of the GW opening nearby to pack it in. After all, he should have access to a far wider range of products, as well as supplementary products. He should be able to sell modelling supplies far cheaper than GW, and he should be able to offer service at least as good as what GW will provide.

isaac
11-03-2009, 20:25
Wal-mart is cheaper, than the Mom & Pop, while GW is the same or more expensive.

Could a FLGS compete longterm with a GW store? They control the merchandise and have corporate backing, but if a FLGS has a bad year, they have no one to turn to.

Corrode
11-03-2009, 21:13
Wal-mart is cheaper, than the Mom & Pop, while GW is the same or more expensive.

Could a FLGS compete longterm with a GW store? They control the merchandise and have corporate backing, but if a FLGS has a bad year, they have no one to turn to.

This is the risk that one runs when one manages a small, independent business. You can diversify and specialise, but you run the risk of losing out if your product doesn't sell as well as you would like (whereas a bigger chain store can run for years at a loss as long as the rest of the business makes enough money). Again, this is kinda how capitalism works.

As far as Wal-mart's concerned, they often 'win' by selling inferior products cheap, and since most people don't care that much about quality (especially in food, where as long as it's edible you can usually find plenty of people willing to buy it) they're happy to buy from there. GW are selling the same product for more money and the FLGS has still had to close - something tells me that there's more at play here than just 'OMG GW OPENED A STORE AND NOW THE ONE I LIKED IS OUT OF BUSINESS EVIL GW :('.

isaac
11-03-2009, 21:29
Read what they wrote on their website, if you have problems understanding anything just ask me to translate. I won't do the whole thing, but I can do parts of it.

EmperorNorton
11-03-2009, 21:52
Read what they wrote on their website, if you have problems understanding anything just ask me to translate. I won't do the whole thing, but I can do parts of it.

I just read it and it seems their situation has been dire since they opened the store three years ago.
What I gather from that is that without the new GW store they could have kept going for a while, but their eventual failure would have been inevitable.

isaac
11-03-2009, 22:06
If things kept going the way they were or worse, then yes. But there is no guarantee that the situation would stay like that. But every independent store has risks involved and sometimes you just don't have a good year.

EmperorNorton
11-03-2009, 22:31
It sounds like they never had a good year, though, just bad years and worse years.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 22:41
I don't understand in what way the competition killed them. I don't even understand how the GW store was competition. People wouldn't cross a small town for a larger range and lower prices? GW retail stores don't even boast a wider range of GW products these days, never mind all the other ranges an indie can stock. The argument doesn't hold water. Suggestions that GW would have withheld stock sound like pure fantasy, if not actually libellous. Aren't their margins supposed to be better through indies than their own stores?

isaac
11-03-2009, 23:21
Then why would they open a store if Indies are better for them?

Corrode
11-03-2009, 23:34
Then why would they open a store if Indies are better for them?

As stated above, to kill off any chance of their competition being sold - if kids have a choice between Warhammer and Warmachine, there's a chance they'll go for Warmachine. If the only thing they see in the store is Warhammer, guess what they're buying?

isaac
11-03-2009, 23:43
But warhammer is THE TT game played here, almost no one plays anything else. There may be some minis from other systems, but those are mainly used for RPG minis more than anything else.

Melchor
12-03-2009, 00:09
GW prefers their own stores because that way they control the environment their products are sold in. They hire and train the staff, dress the store and generally display their games how they want them. And even IF Warhammer is the main game in your area there is still a chance that a customer at a FLGS will buy Warmachine if it's on the shelves.

IJW
12-03-2009, 00:21
I just read it and it seems their situation has been dire since they opened the store three years ago.
Ah. Three years.

As a general rule, independent gaming stores either last for ever or don't make it to 4-5 years. Sounds like it was one of the many, many gaming stores that open up, don't do that well and then close again soon after. :(

Crazy Harborc
12-03-2009, 00:36
IMHO there are two trains of thought working against each other at GW's, UK, HQ.

Train 1, wants to collect ALL the money (based on suggested list prices) from the customers of the closing FLGS by opening a store in the same town.

Train 2, wants to sell to indie stores who then have to pay store expenses, all the overhead involved.

GW is a business that makes it's money from customers who are part of (compared to the general public) a very, very small niche market. GW targets young, still in school, non-adults who have relatives with money to spend keeping those youngsters happy with a new and endless supply of toys.

Then....there are the REST of the world's wargamers who are not dependent on GW for all their wargaming supplies.

By the by, what has been already posted on this thread about GW opening stores where indies have developed a GW products customer market is what happened here. A couple of other areas I know of too.

yabbadabba
12-03-2009, 22:09
Then why would they open a store if Indies are better for them?

You make more profit per item from an Indie, but you have little or no control over the sales of that product. In addition, I doubt if there are any Indies in the UK who make as much sales for GW as their own stores do. And for a vertically integrated company, at some point, sales are more important than the chase for profits.

So lets look at this realisitically. If an area is calculated to make x amount of money for GW, an Indie store is making y, and x>y (especially substantially so) then GW will see that as lost sales. You can only support an Indie to increase it's sales, and if they will not or cannot do that then what do you do? So GW will open a store if they think it will be viable. As has already been stated, Indies can compete on price and GW (in the EU) have to compete on fair terms with their Indies. The only thing GW can try and trump an Indie on is customer service.

Again, GW don't close Indies. Indies do.

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 22:55
This is the risk that one runs when one manages a small, independent business. You can diversify and specialise, but you run the risk of losing out if your product doesn't sell as well as you would like (whereas a bigger chain store can run for years at a loss as long as the rest of the business makes enough money). Again, this is kinda how capitalism works.

:('.


Hold it, this is in Germany right? Germany is about as capitalist as the color black is red.

Aside from the securities trading markets, it's socialist through and through.

I have no comment other than any assumption I could make holds no water in the bizarre world of craddle to grave governments under Socialism. Any advice would be like telling a person floating in outer space to breath...

isaac
12-03-2009, 23:28
Actually as far as Europe goes, Germany is not that socialized. They have private healthcare (though regulated) for example.

GeneralBUTTERBAR
12-03-2009, 23:29
I'll have to agree with yabba here (and others). If a GW store doesnt sell its stock, the company (GW) eats it. If a FLGS doesnt sell its GW stocks, the company still has profitted already. On top of everything else a GW store has payroll and rent to cut into the bottomline. This means it benefits GW to sell to indies as much as possible. Maybe GW saw the writing on the wall from your FLGS to their possible collapse/failure/closing and took measures to make sure its market there was still being satified (exploited???).

Melchor
12-03-2009, 23:30
Hold it, this is in Germany right? Germany is about as capitalist as the color black is red.

Aside from the securities trading markets, it's socialist through and through.

I have no comment other than any assumption I could make holds no water in the bizarre world of craddle to grave governments under Socialism. Any advice would be like telling a person floating in outer space to breath...

Dude. Wait. What? :wtf:

Hicks
13-03-2009, 05:14
Dude. Wait. What? :wtf:

It's Reagan coming back from it's grave to make fun of commies.

starlight
13-03-2009, 05:34
All those who'd like to make the trip to P&R, keep it up... :eyebrows:


The rest of you who want to keep discussing FLGS matters, knock of the P&R...:eyebrows:


starlight

yabbadabba
13-03-2009, 10:34
Sorry for being a bit thick Starlight, but P+R?

Brother Loki
13-03-2009, 10:47
Politics & Religion - Guilder only forum at the bottom of the page.

starlight
13-03-2009, 17:00
Indeed. :)

yabbadabba
13-03-2009, 17:36
Aaahhh. Thanks. And whats a Guilder then? Don't worry I have no interest in discussing politics or religion online ;-)

starlight
13-03-2009, 18:02
Guilders pay to support Teh Warseer, get Teh Silver Star of DOOOOM, Custom Titles, and access to Teh Chaos Wastes (for maximum Spammage), and P&R (actually Politics, Religion and Current Events, but we still call it P&R). :)

Hicks
13-03-2009, 18:05
Guilders pay to support Teh Warseer, get Teh Silver Star of DOOOOM, Custom Titles, and access to Teh Chaos Wastes (for maximum Spammage), and P&R (actually Politics, Religion and Current Events, but we still call it P&R). :)

Do you still have to use paypal to join? I'd like to support warseer, but since I've reached my sending limit I need to give my bank account info to Paypal to lift this limit... and I've read enough horror stories not to let those people know anything that could allow them to mess with my money.

starlight
13-03-2009, 18:13
You can use PayPal, credit card, and some European debit-type cards. Failing that, you could send the money to a member you trust and they could activate a gift membership.


*crosses fingers* No issues with PayPal from my end... :) *knocks wood* :angel:

boogle
16-03-2009, 21:07
Hey long time no see melchor. i didnt make th Gt last year.

I have seen this happen twice before. There was a good indy store in eastbourne that started getting supply issues, GW getting harsh on payments then when the store died GW moved into town.

The 2nd time in kingston the GW opened within sight of the indy store. and again the owner hated the way he was suddenly treated. so much so that he put a huge 10% off GW products sign in the window!

Now i pray that GW dont do the same to my local store here. Its a great shop with about 10 6x4 tables and late night gaming till the early hours (if you play the owner, or he is about)

Which store in Eastbourne was that?

isaac
17-03-2009, 14:54
So I visted the GW and the FLG sores today.

The FLGS owner was helpful as usual and pointed me towards some of the discounts they were offering. Has no idea what the GW store is trying to do by opening a store here.

The GW store was very hard to find, it was buried in an alleyway of a side street. The store is very small and very crowded with tables (hard to move around in) The walls were filled with all three lines and official GW accessories. There were three stations, the first one was a hybrid table that had three themed sections which held all the basic starters (guess how the SM were painted...), the second was a painting station and the third was one of those big modular boards. I can hardly see how more than two people could play, the way everything was set up. The one person there was helpful, but PUSHY PUSHY PUSHY on selling stuff (He tried to get me to pre-order the IG codex and a small army). He said they will do weekly events (fantasy, LoTR, 40k, painting, etc.). The store is nice, but still no replacement for the FLGS (which had cabinets of terrain anyone could use and lots of tables to play, plus offered everything the GW shop did and much more (and that was just for GW products, don't forget the other stuff).

x-esiv-4c
17-03-2009, 15:41
We have a FLGS opening up here in Hartford CT. Looking foward to it.

isaac
17-03-2009, 16:23
Treasure your FLGS and hope GW doesn't try to put it out of business.

yabbadabba
17-03-2009, 21:32
Treasure your FLGS and hope GW doesn't try to put it out of business.
If the FLGS is run properly it will trump a GW store everyday. Only your FLGS and it's customers will put it out of business, not GW.

isaac
17-03-2009, 21:40
In a small city like the one I live in, there is only (barely) enough room for 1 gaming store. GW keeps unprofitable stores afloat, no matter the cost.

yabbadabba
17-03-2009, 21:44
In a small city like the one I live in, there is only (barely) enough room for 1 gaming store. GW keeps unprofitable stores afloat, no matter the cost.

No they don't. Read their statements on their shareholders website. I think in the UK they have gone from just shy of 130 stores to 108 in 2 years.

Isaac it's plain and simple. GW can't close an Indy down. Only the Indy can do that.

isaac
17-03-2009, 22:11
Technically yes.

But I wouldn't think that GW would close their store shortly after opening it.

I talked with the owner, GW is practically shutting them down, no not "technically" but for all real world purposes, why would they open a store in a small city (that can barely support one store), in an economically hard time, while a competent one exists there? (Sure it was a bit down on it's luck, but that was more due to the dollar-euro exchange (i.e either companies change the euro price to reflect the dollar, meaning less profit for the FLGS or they keep it the same, leading to people buying it from the USA for half the price, cannibalizing sales). They were doing fine with GW products (which was a roughly a third of the income, RPG books and accessories/TCGs/Other was the rest).

The owner did not want to close, the store had a future till GW came and stole sales away. And this saturday ends our FLGS...:cries:

yabbadabba
17-03-2009, 22:19
Sorry mate, you are allowing your sentimentality to cloud your judgement.

isaac
17-03-2009, 22:43
I can see we are of different opinions on this matter. And we won't convince the other that he/she is wrong/right, so let us just drop this discussion between us.

dodicula
18-03-2009, 09:56
So just to be clear, GW didn't kill off the FLGS, its just that the FLGS was so afraid of GW that they shutdown, right?
When it comes to all things recent, I am a GW hater, but I highly doubt that GW stores will kill off local indies (at least in my area),
first of all indys bread and butter seems to be Card Games not GW stuff.
Secondly, most vets (the people with large discretionary incomes) won't set foot in a GW store.
Third, most FLGS give a small discount, GW stores can't.
Fourth, The kids GW introduces to gaming their games tend to migrate over to FLGS'
Fifth, FLGS can sell a variety of miniature products to their customers allowing them to create armies with non-gw miniatures that wouldn't even be allowed to play at GW stores

Sorry but I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong, an FLGS is a tough business to run, but I just don't see GW as the Wal Mart of Hobby Stores killing off all the indies.

blongbling
18-03-2009, 10:30
GW wont open a store on an indy that is fulfilling the potential of that area. They know what an area should be able to produce in terms of cash, if the indy isnt doing that and the profit difference is justifiable to allow for a GW store then whywould they not open a GW store there?

In my experience a lot of indies are terrible so it isnt a suprise that a GW store is opening up on an indy.......they are aftera ll, trying to make as much money for their shareholders as they can

Bookwrak
19-03-2009, 02:58
GW keeps unprofitable stores afloat, no matter the cost.

That is a flat out lie.

isaac
19-03-2009, 03:19
That is a flat out lie.

I was corrected earlier in the post, but they will give it a chance to float

isaac
19-03-2009, 03:31
So just to be clear, GW didn't kill off the FLGS, its just that the FLGS was so afraid of GW that they shutdown, right?
When it comes to all things recent, I am a GW hater, but I highly doubt that GW stores will kill off local indies (at least in my area),
first of all indys bread and butter seems to be Card Games not GW stuff.
Secondly, most vets (the people with large discretionary incomes) won't set foot in a GW store.
Third, most FLGS give a small discount, GW stores can't.
Fourth, The kids GW introduces to gaming their games tend to migrate over to FLGS'
Fifth, FLGS can sell a variety of miniature products to their customers allowing them to create armies with non-gw miniatures that wouldn't even be allowed to play at GW stores

Sorry but I just don't see it. Don't get me wrong, an FLGS is a tough business to run, but I just don't see GW as the Wal Mart of Hobby Stores killing off all the indies.

My city is only big enough to support MAX one and the market was crowded with only one store in town. This is no big city that can support a multi-story store or multiple gaming stores in the same vein (there is max one if any of any geeky stores here). So, as soon as the GW store opened it would be clear that there would only be one remaining.

dodicula
19-03-2009, 05:29
But what does that mean Is Only Big Enough, how do you know if the two stores never were really both open? Are people from other cities forbidden from coming? Are new people kept from joining the hobby?
GW is a Multi National Corp, but they are hardly wal-mart, I seriously doubt that they would have opened a store in a market that can only contains 1 store.

isaac
19-03-2009, 05:38
Geeky stores are a very Niche market to begin with, the smaller area you have, the worse it gets. Economically it can only support one and that is the max.

dodicula
19-03-2009, 09:13
Geeky stores are a very Niche market to begin with, the smaller area you have, the worse it gets. Economically it can only support one and that is the max.

How do you know?

EmperorNorton
19-03-2009, 09:43
Geeky stores are a very Niche market to begin with, the smaller area you have, the worse it gets. Economically it can only support one and that is the max.

You keep referring to Freiburg as small, but a population of 220000 isn't that small.
My hometown of 250000 people has two geeky stores (one has existed for 6+ years now, the other for over a decade) and has had several other additional stores selling GW merchandise in the past.

blongbling
19-03-2009, 10:40
My city is only big enough to support MAX one and the market was crowded with only one store in town. This is no big city that can support a multi-story store or multiple gaming stores in the same vein (there is max one if any of any geeky stores here). So, as soon as the GW store opened it would be clear that there would only be one remaining.

geeky stores..hmm, lets scale this up because i dont think you have any idea at all what you are talking about frankly.

Lets look at somewhere that a lot of people will know - Nottingham. Notts has two GW stores, one of which is the biggest in the world, it has a Forbidden Planet (sells miniature games), Page 45 (comic shop) and GeeDee model shop all within about a mile of each other.........notts city itself has a population of less than 200k people.

Copenhagen, has two of the best Elite stores in Northern Europe and one of the best retail stores as well as a slection of other GW stockists there in a place with a population of 500k and they are all within walking distance of each other.

You are basing your assumption on what you think a city can hold, not what a city actually can.

IJW
19-03-2009, 13:09
You keep referring to Freiburg as small, but a population of 220000 isn't that small.
220,000 - that's not small!

My local city is Exeter in SW England. OK, it's a local hub, but with a population of 122,400 it manages to support:

GW Exeter store
Clifton Games (FLGS, doesn't stock GW products)
Eldritch Games (new FLGS, GW products with discount, but probably won't last long)
Krackers (comics & collectables, used to do games as well)
Three model shops (the fourth closed recently)

Freiburg is a university town with nearly twice the population of Exeter and nearly twice the number of uni students (24k to 14k) - supporting a GW and a single FLGS shouldn't be any problem.

Sorry, but until I heard that it was Freiburg and not some little provincial backwater I had some sympathy for your position.

Bookwrak
19-03-2009, 14:21
My city is only big enough to support MAX one and the market was crowded with only one store in town. This is no big city that can support a multi-story store or multiple gaming stores in the same vein (there is max one if any of any geeky stores here). So, as soon as the GW store opened it would be clear that there would only be one remaining.
Then it's the fault of the existing store for not being good enough to stay in business, especially if it was having trouble when it was the ONLY store in such a big city.

Bluto
19-03-2009, 21:11
I'm afraid I must agree with most of the other posters here - I live in a smaller city, of around 190,000 people. Not large by any means, but big enough to support a few FLGSs.

At various points, we have had 2-3 FLGS for a considerable time. GW opened a location a few years after one of them closed. They managed for 3-4 years, then closed down themselves. The remaining 2 stores seem to do quite well - one has two locations, and the other has one, but with two stories of all kinds of various geekery.

That said, I don't know anything about Freiburg - maybe the gaming/geek niche market is smaller there for some reason? Not having a FLGS at all might be part of that - as was the case just 3 years ago, if I am reading right.

I am sorry for the loss of your local store - I understand how hard it is to lose a place you found welcoming and inviting - but please don't be so quick to place all the blame on GW. The FLGS had options - they could have tried to tough it out for a few months - discounted prices a little on their GW product, and hoped that the GW store would actually add interest in the hobby - that is the one thing these stores do very well. Their bright store fronts and displays make much better draws than most dingy FLGS store fronts, especially for the younger set - who eventually can become wise to the benefits of the FLGS and shop there too.

shakespear
19-03-2009, 22:02
In the past 10 years I saw about 6 gaming stores close in my area. I know of at least 3 that closed because they were trying to keep the doors open selling GW stuff. some things I noticed:

1. best way to stay open, have another job that pays for the store

2. people eventually buy all the GW they want

3. "push" game systems, if they see you play it, they will buy it. After #2, time to push something else

4. dont carry stuff that the local barnes and noble sells cheaper

5. leave your annoying wife/girlfriend/SO at home! nobody likes her and she drives away customers

6. store owners place is behind the counter not at the gaming table. Get a part timer if you want to play.

7. avoid favoring "cliques" of people

8. keep the guys dropping hundreds a month in there happy

9. run as many tournaments and leagues as you can

10. stay open as much as possible, it sucks only having saturday afternoon to play. If you wan to spend time with your family hire a part timer or go into another line of work.

dodicula
19-03-2009, 23:33
Oh 220K people, dude, I live in a city with 38k people which is pretty isolated from San Francisco and the other major parts of the Bay Area (Pacifica is at the bottom of a huge cliff basically with only 3 roads heading out of town), and we (about 10 of us now) have managed to find a place to play. Its a store that sells cards & anime and special orders WH stuff for us. Is it the ideal game store? No. Is it better than my living room? Yeah. Now the funny thing is...we recently discovered another game store (no GW games) in town with its own collection of gamers. So if our 38,000 person bay area back water can support 2 games stores, and a comic book store...I don't really think you have an excuse.

isaac
20-03-2009, 06:15
Each city is different, there is not a huge amount of geeks in freiburg. There is 1 comic store, 1 sci-fi/fantasy book store, 1 FLGS , there are some smaller stores, but they are not really LGS, more that they carry hobby stuff (for model planes, trains, tanks, etc.).

But there is only one place to go to for RPGs, TCGs and TT

Suspicions
20-03-2009, 07:01
Any store of any sort closing at this point in the world's economic downturn should not come as a surprise. As hobbyists, we love our FLGS and when one has to close, it is really hard to resist the temptation to blame someone else for it. GW makes a great target for this, but it's really not their fault. They are a successful company that caters to hobbyists, the fact that they are surviving when others are not is simply not "their fault"; it's proof that they're a strong business.

Muscling tactics are for walmart and other evil mega-corps, if a GW opens up near your favorite FLGS why should we leap like hounds at the leash to lash out at them? We all do this hobby (in one way or another) so the more stores that help us enjoy that the better, right? That just makes sense.

I feel bad for anyone who has lost their favorite store, but GW opening up more stores seems like a good thing, not a bad thing to me.

Master Stark
20-03-2009, 08:39
In my experience a lot of indies are terrible

In what way?

isaac
20-03-2009, 09:17
I think business-wise is meant

blongbling
20-03-2009, 16:26
In what way?

Lots of them expect to be succesful without putting in the work in entails and blame everything else when it doesnt happen, never their fault.

They listen too much to those loud customers and buy in stock that doesnt sell ignoring good advice.

many are not nice places to visit, smelly, dusty, add yours in here

lots of them are clicky and exclude the new player

the list could go on