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Feefait
08-03-2009, 14:29
Scenario:

Lone sorceress on a hill, in front of her the back rank of a unit that is part on/part off the hill. IN front of them a Stegadon. Stegadon declares a shot on the sorceress. We ruled he couldn't see her as the last rank of the unit was in the way. As I read the rule in the book though, a model on a hill can be targetted over intervening models by a unit not on the hill. What got us confused was the first box of text in the rule. When talking about shooting FROM the hill it does not mention being able to shoot over another unit.

I can attempt to clarify the situation if needs be.

Thanks for all your input!

stripsteak
08-03-2009, 16:02
sounds like you are stalking about this

S - Steg
< - other unit denoting facing
C - the caster


SSS <<___C__
SSS__<</ \___O


this situation isn't clearly defined in the BRB. Large targets can see over interposing models. so by RAW the steg can see C over the interposing models since the rules for large targets don't mention anything about how high the units in front of them can be. Now the steg wouldnt be able to see O since O is blocked by terrain and not interposing models. but this can start seeming pretty silly especially if you have pretty tall hills modeled.

the way my group plays it is that a large targets acts like he is always on a hill. so he can shoot over interposing models that are on the ground below him, but models on a hill are the same 'height' as his shot so would block LOS to other models of equal 'height'. but thats just how we play it and its not fully backed up by the rules. but the rules for a large target is kinda lacking.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-03-2009, 16:14
It depends whether you want the shape of the "in-game" hill to affect the game or if you want to pretend its a more naturally shaped feature. If it were real, "C" might well be standing on the crest of the hill and higher than the second rank of models "<<".

I'd usually play the rules as stripsteak describes and play with the hill as modelled rather than trying to work out where the crest of the hill is. I'd apply the same tenet to close combat as well so all ranks on a hill are at the same height for the purposes of the high ground bonus. Ranged units are a specific exception in that whilst on a hill they always fire in an additional rank as this is defined clearly in the rules themselves.

Feefait
08-03-2009, 22:25
Excellent explanations and ideas there guys. That is about exacty the situation in question. I uppose if the Stegadon had been on the hill it would have made a difference. It make sense to play it the way you've suggested. We've pretty much decided to go with it, but I was hoping to be proven right... lol

Braad
09-03-2009, 08:16
When situations with hills, large targets etc become complicated, I tend to think in 'levels'. While there is no rules justification for this, I think it works fine.

Its like this: the battlefield is at level 0. Large targets and a single hill are on level 1. So in this case, something that is on level 1 cannot be seen by a large target, if there is something on the same level in front of it and the large target is on level 0.
However, if a hill has several layers, there will be a level 2, and maybe level 3, 4, 5... Or in a trench or something: level -1

In a pic:

____________________Y_____Level 2
________SS____X_Y_/____\__Level 1
________SS__/_____________Level 0
___\___/___________________Level -1

In this case, Stegadon (S) cannot see Y on level 1, as it is blocked by X, but Y on level 2 can be seen, as it towers even over X.
A stegadon on level 1 would reach into level 2.
Something like this...
1 level in my opinion is more or less the height of a single human, maybe a bit more, like up to ogre size. A large target would be 2 levels high for this purpose.

The Red Scourge
09-03-2009, 11:42
When situations with hills, large targets etc become complicated, I tend to think in 'levels'. While there is no rules justification for this, I think it works fine.

Its like this: the battlefield is at level 0. Large targets and a single hill are on level 1. So in this case, something that is on level 1 cannot be seen by a large target, if there is something on the same level in front of it and the large target is on level 0.
However, if a hill has several layers, there will be a level 2, and maybe level 3, 4, 5... Or in a trench or something: level -1

In a pic:

____________________Y_____Level 2
________SS____X_Y_/____\__Level 1
________SS__/_____________Level 0
___\___/___________________Level -1

In this case, Stegadon (S) cannot see Y on level 1, as it is blocked by X, but Y on level 2 can be seen, as it towers even over X.
A stegadon on level 1 would reach into level 2.
Something like this...
1 level in my opinion is more or less the height of a single human, maybe a bit more, like up to ogre size. A large target would be 2 levels high for this purpose.

This is the same way, we're doing it. It makes sense to some terrain influence large targets and some differences in elevation :)

Braad
09-03-2009, 12:18
When in doubt, I also often use true line of sight (what can I see) as a guideline. While rules in fantasy battles don't cover this, they are also quite vague about terrain in general, so I guess this has to be taken lightly anyway.

xragg
09-03-2009, 16:58
Pretty much play like how the others have described too. Also want to say that its usually a good rule of thumb that if you can "see" something, they can "see" you back.