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View Full Version : What if : new special SM characters ?



Xelloss
08-03-2009, 23:16
I'm not particulary fond of the new system for Space Marines non-vanilla chapter, but that's not the point : basing on the fact just one mini gives varation on the SM armies, do you think GW will plan to release new special characters ?

From a commercial point of view, this could have a lot of advantages : just one mini to product that is based on a allready existing army (potential new player, and some old players mad enough to buy SM again to go along ^^), the additional profile can easely fit with the codex by just an additional page on the GM website/on the WD...

The remaining question would be then : what kind of new special rule can be added ? "Give universal rule X" or "Y can now take objectives" are really boring, could it be something else ?

Lord Raneus
08-03-2009, 23:28
I don't think they're going to release add-ons to an existing codex, but the one obvious character that screams out for representation is some form of Iron Hands character.

I don't know what they'd do, maybe make vehicles better in some way or allow multiple Ven Dreads, etc, but if they add anything it has to be Iron Hands.

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 23:28
The remaining question would be then : what kind of new special rule can be added ? "Give universal rule X" or "Y can now take objectives" are really boring, could it be something else ?

It may be boring, but its the best way to show the minute variations in a chapter

Xelloss
08-03-2009, 23:36
It may be boring, but its the best way to show the minute variations in a chapter

Not the best. Just the easiest.

zoodog
08-03-2009, 23:39
Outside of apocalypse I doubt we will see any new army changing SC till the next codex.

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 23:39
Not the best. Just the easiest.

Why isnt it the best? Chapters really wont be that different from each other. They will all follow the same lines, just have maybe the slightest of slight differences.

To be honest, most chapters differences wouldnt really change their stats at all.

ehlijen
08-03-2009, 23:42
No, the best way to show minute variations in chapters is to allow people freedom in choosing their army, which they've done.
What chapter someone's playing should be apparent from a) the colour scheme and b)the unit choices he's made. Special characters are not necessary for that to happen, nor is any other kind of 'reward' for picking units that are iconic for a chapter.

All you need for a BA army is red marines and maybe more jump packers than others.
All you need for DA is green/white/black marines focusing on termies and bikes.
All you need for space wolves is light blue marines focusing on Combat over ranged shooting.
All you need for Iron Hands (and this is my armies' parent chapter) is more techmarines and a MotF. Additional dreadnaughts too, maybe.

Solar_Eclipse
08-03-2009, 23:44
No, the best way to show minute variations in chapters is to allow people freedom in choosing their army, which they've done.
What chapter someone's playing should be apparent from a) the colour scheme and b)the unit choices he's made. Special characters are not necessary for that to happen, nor is any other kind of 'reward' for picking units that are iconic for a chapter.

All you need for a BA army is red marines and maybe more jump packers than others.
All you need for DA is green/white/black marines focusing on termies and bikes.
All you need for space wolves is light blue marines focusing on Combat over ranged shooting.
All you need for Iron Hands (and this is my armies' parent chapter) is more techmarines and a MotF. Additional dreadnaughts too, maybe.

Hmmm, no i disagree. If GW wants people to play fluffy chapters they should make a character for that army, who then gives bonuses to fluffy units and choices.

The Salamanders character is case in point. He sculpts his army into a salamanders army by making the player take a number of Flamer and melta weapons as well as Thunder Hammers.

This sort of thing is what happens when army design is right.

Warforger
08-03-2009, 23:58
Please not another SM character, we already have 11, us BA only have 5 and 1 is just useless, another is just a chaplin with jump pack with slightly better stats and a useless Ld ability thrown in, the last 3 are the characters you see in BA armies most of the time, in fact there usually the only characters you see in a BA army.

SM, 11, none are useless, all are marginally different then there original entries, and there not always seen on the battle field.

Or you could be SW with only 3 special characters.

Or Eldar with only 3 special characters

Or Tyranids who used to have 3 special characters, but now have NONE.

Now why would SM need another one? The current characters are more then enough for custom armies.

ehlijen
09-03-2009, 01:58
Eldar only 3 SCs? Did you count all the Phoenix lords as one?

And why would people need rewards to pick units that are 'fluffy' for their army if those units are balanced correctly to begin with? Or are you saying that without those rewards, those units are not powerful enough?

Silvarius
09-03-2009, 02:05
I think if more SC's come in its gonna spoil players for choice, and also make other armies complain about there lack of choice. 11 should be the maximum and (apart from nids) 6-7 should be the minimum.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-03-2009, 02:59
Special characters should not be a determinant for army deviation. List choices and tactics should, and if special commander abilities are to be included they should be able to be bought for HQ units. This goes for pretty much all armies.

Giganthrax
09-03-2009, 03:43
I think GW could have just avoided the entire "special character gives you this and that" thing and should've a special Chapter Tactic upgrade for generic HQ choices.

Like, your generic chapter master could pay a certain amount of points to replace the regular chapter tactics with a salamander/ironhand/ultramarine/etc. specific chapter tactic. That way, instead of getting He'Stan, a salamander player could buy Salamander Chapter Tactic for his HQ and get the same armywide effect in conjunction with a personalized HQ.

Deadmanwade
09-03-2009, 04:03
Special Characters are just regular captains and chapter masters with an extra points cost and the chapter tactics rules added on. They have slightly better wargear, but nothing that is an instant "I win" button.

For example
Pedro Kantor is 22 points more than a simlilarly equipped chapter master and has a slightly better storm bolter. You pay 22 points to get stubborn for the army (not forgetting that you lose combat tactics which in some situations is BETTER) and sternguard become scoring units. Given that sternguard are expensive anyway, anyone who uses 30 of them just gave up half his points for 3 units which are no tougher or resilient than tactical squads.
Likewise, Shrike is just a captain with 40 points of fluffy special rule on top. Infiltrate is great, but fleet... depending on your opponent you may not want to be charging forward, but standing still and shooting.

If you just take a regular vanilla captain on a bike you can reorganise your bikes into troops squads. A Master of the Forge lets you move your dreanoughts around.

The whole concept of "special" characters is more for the likes of Abaddon, Marneus Calgar, Mephiston and the other super tough awesome models. Most of the C:SM characters let you lose 1 special rule which most people forget about and gain another. If you build your army round it, you will get a different feel than if you used vanilla marines, which is the point of it all really.

And yes, you can totally break them by using allied sisters of battle or something like that. Shame on you.

NightrawenII
09-03-2009, 10:17
I think GW could have just avoided the entire "special character gives you this and that" thing and should've a special Chapter Tactic upgrade for generic HQ choices.

Like, your generic chapter master could pay a certain amount of points to replace the regular chapter tactics with a salamander/ironhand/ultramarine/etc. specific chapter tactic. That way, instead of getting He'Stan, a salamander player could buy Salamander Chapter Tactic for his HQ and get the same armywide effect in conjunction with a personalized HQ.

Seconded.
I also think this is a better idea.

Xelloss
09-03-2009, 10:23
This would be the better idea if GW were still an hobby provider. With this version not only people can buy it because they like the mini, but they *must* buy it because of the WYSIWYG rule.

Nero
09-03-2009, 11:45
Special Characters are just regular captains and chapter masters with an extra points cost and the chapter tactics rules added on. They have slightly better wargear, but nothing that is an instant "I win" button.

...and you don't think a complete lack of customability for your army leaders is a problem? You like having your HQ - the most important model in your entire army - having his gear determined for you every game?

Why not just replace all wargear and unit choices with set armylists in future too? So if you want to play Ultramarines you get your unit choices determined for you, but you gain the 'plot armor' special rule.

Sounds absurd, but that's what we've got at the minute. SC are OK, but SC you need to take if you want competitive/fun/fluffy special rules is most definately not.

Hestan-San
09-03-2009, 12:12
...and you don't think a complete lack of customability for your army leaders is a problem? You like having your HQ - the most important model in your entire army - having his gear determined for you every game?

Why not just replace all wargear and unit choices with set armylists in future too? So if you want to play Ultramarines you get your unit choices determined for you, but you gain the 'plot armor' special rule.

Sounds absurd, but that's what we've got at the minute. SC are OK, but SC you need to take if you want competitive/fun/fluffy special rules is most definately not.

Gah... I couldn't disagree more. The Chapter tactics SCs are the most interesting from a gaming point of view that GW have ever introduced. For once you're going to see several different aproches to SMs on the battlefield rather than lots of cookie cutter lists.

If you want your HQ to be the most important part of the army, give up 40k and go and play WFB. I for one think that the 5th ed marine codex is probably the best GW have produced since 2nd ed Codex Eldar!

Why can't anyone on the internet ever be positive? :p

Nero
09-03-2009, 14:22
For once you're going to see several different aproches to SMs on the battlefield rather than lots of cookie cutter lists.

Yeah, I see what you mean... Take my last 4 games vs SM for example;

*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*
*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*
*faced Space Marines lead by Pedro tooled up with Sternguard and droppods*
*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*

The new SC aren't one trick ponies after all! Ohwaityeahtheyare.


If you want your HQ to be the most important part of the army, give up 40k and go and play WFB.

Let me get this straight - you're telling me to 'give up 40k', a hobby I have invested both countless thousands of pounds and hours into, just because I want a valid HQ choice that's customisible (an essential part of any hobby) without gimping my army? Do you even realise how dumb and short-sighted that is!?


Why can't anyone on the internet ever be positive? :p

I can think of at least one reason. :rolleyes:

Bjorn Hellhammer
09-03-2009, 17:06
Sweet Jesus, whiney, whiney, whiney. I can see the alternate thread now, why are there so few SC? Sorry for throwing my teddy in the corner, now more seriously.

I think the SC's are a great idea, there is no need to have a vanilla one character fits all solution. If you want a vanilla tooled up Captain, you can, and even then you can spec him to fulfill differing rolls. The SC's give you the ability to run lists that play differently to the norm, and that can only be a good thing. You also aren't stuck to using set figures, as long as you include the wargear on the fig there is nothing stopping you from kit-bashing representative models as I have.

As to the Vulcan/Termie problem, that's not the fault of the codex, it's the fault of all the Nimrods who use netlists and don't bother coming up with something else. That is not just a C:SM problem, so don't make out that it is. There are any number of net lists that berks use for all of the Codexs', there's nothing to be done about it and it will always happen. Maybe finding a group that can come up with non-standard lists is what you need.

Rant ends here.

Hestan-San
09-03-2009, 17:37
Yeah, I see what you mean... Take my last 4 games vs SM for example;

*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*
*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*
*faced Space Marines lead by Pedro tooled up with Sternguard and droppods*
*faced Space Marines lead by He'Stan tooled up with meltas/Assault termies*

The new SC aren't one trick ponies after all! Ohwaityeahtheyare.

So you haven't played a White Scars outflanking list then, or shrike infiltrating sillyness... or vanilla marines? That's 4 very different ways of aproaching a marine army that were just not available in the last codex. If you're bored of He'Stan Spamô that's the fault of the players you are playing and not the list.


Let me get this straight - you're telling me to 'give up 40k', a hobby I have invested both countless thousands of pounds and hours into, just because I want a valid HQ choice that's customisible (an essential part of any hobby) without gimping my army? Do you even realise how dumb and short-sighted that is!?

Ok so the sarcasm was clearly lost there. Fine. I wasn't actually suggesting that you should stop playing the game, more pointing out that HQ choices are less important in 40k than WFB.

I apologuise for my slightly barbed remarks, I just get a bit bored of the 'never happy' fanboys you get on here (and I'm not suggesting you are part of that catagory). I for one think that the new Marine codex is as good as you're going to get from GW... my only real problem with it is that the vanilla HQ choices are very 'meh' still.

Xelloss
09-03-2009, 17:51
Hum... Can we go back to the topic, please ?

ehlijen
09-03-2009, 23:05
I think we are on topic. We are discussing the need for more (or any) SCs with chapter special rules.

Some people (me included) don't want to see any more, others do.

zoodog
10-03-2009, 00:31
The main problem with the chapter tactics SC is that most of the time people don't really feel a loss for combat tactics, they really should have carried over purity seals somehow to make it more reliable.

I disagree histan-san, with the exception of the outflanking and sternguard armies, which had no core rules yet, most of the others existed in one form or another.

The main issue with the traits based system was that very few of them were modeled making knowing any units abilities at a glance more difficult and increasing list tailoring as well as likely reducing the number of models sold. Being able to see this SC is in the army thus they have this rule is an inelegant solution but was expected based on previous codexes.

Hive Mind 33
10-03-2009, 02:40
No, the best way to show minute variations in chapters is to allow people freedom in choosing their army, which they've done.
What chapter someone's playing should be apparent from a) the colour scheme and b)the unit choices he's made. Special characters are not necessary for that to happen, nor is any other kind of 'reward' for picking units that are iconic for a chapter.

All you need for a BA army is red marines and maybe more jump packers than others.
All you need for DA is green/white/black marines focusing on termies and bikes.
All you need for space wolves is light blue marines focusing on Combat over ranged shooting.
All you need for Iron Hands (and this is my armies' parent chapter) is more techmarines and a MotF. Additional dreadnaughts too, maybe.

Yeah..No Space wolves do not follow the Codex Astartes. You would need elite scouts, no terminator squads, no veteran squads because that is what Grey hunters are.

ehlijen
10-03-2009, 03:10
Most SM we see on the table also don't follow the codex astartes in any great way. When was the last time you saw an army drawn exclusively from one company?

The wolves could do quite fine without their special rules and units. Noone forces you to use terminators, once on the table, elite scouts aren't that different from troops scouts, except for scoring and noone forces you to do that. You want to call your sternguard grey hunters? Sure, why not?

Granted, the space wolves codex has been the best at actually being different enough to deserve to exist of all variant codices, but they are still space marines and you can still make quite a space wolve like army with codex SM.

We all like to have special rules for our chapter (which coincidentally always reward what we're doing with our army anyway), but no variant chapter needs them, I say.

Deadmanwade
10-03-2009, 03:53
I think GW could have just avoided the entire "special character gives you this and that" thing and should've a special Chapter Tactic upgrade for generic HQ choices.

Like, your generic chapter master could pay a certain amount of points to replace the regular chapter tactics with a salamander/ironhand/ultramarine/etc. specific chapter tactic. That way, instead of getting He'Stan, a salamander player could buy Salamander Chapter Tactic for his HQ and get the same armywide effect in conjunction with a personalized HQ.

Wasn't this idea called the "Traits" system back in the old codex? Didnt people whine about THAT all the time?

If you go to a tournament you're going to see the same builds over and over because they are effective. Whether its tank hunting devs with 6 man las plas squads or Vulkan melta spam its going to happen. Complaining about facing the same lists over and over again is going to happen in any setting where winning comes first. If your local gaming group plays the same way then thats up to them. Just counter it with triple falcon eldar or nidzilla or whatever lists you can come up with.

GW cant please everyone all the time. Especially since everyone has a different idea about what things should be like. If you want a customizable HQ choice AND some special tactics, talk to your opponent before the game and work out a reasonable points cost based on a regular HQ with the same wargear and the special character.

OR you could just stick with combat tactics which ARE useful if used the right way. Shoot before an assault and lose the chance to assault or dont shoot and take more attacks in return? It works.

As has been said, the special characters make WYSIWYG much easier and remove a lot of the work needed to customise every model in the army.

At the end of the day, you are responsible for your own list and who you play against. If you feel that your list is balanced and you see some guy putting down a wall of meltas and flamers you can always say "I've played this army 6 times this week, I'll pass thanks." Find people you enjoy playing against and who can be relied upon to bring balanced lists.

At the end of the day, the decision to make new SC's with new rules is up to GW. If they want to push a certain new range they'll do so, or maybe if they make a collectors range or forgeworld miniature they may publish new rules. (Red Scorpions for example).

To the question of 'should' GW make new models, the answer is different depending on whether the person likes marines or not. I'd like to see some because I do like marines. (though I prefer IG). I think a Hawk Lords Deep Striking force would be cool, or a Scythes of the Emperor force with prefered enemy nids. The more variation available means that you should see more variation on the tabletop, especially from the players who are more into the background rather than the winning.

Just as a final point, I DO use Pedro Kantor in my CF army, and I think its a balanced army.
Pedro
5 Sternguards
40+ scouts
3 landspeeders
1 dreadnought

Warforger
10-03-2009, 03:54
It gives them more character, that's like saying Catachans are pretty much Cadians. If they just dropped the SW codex SW players wouldn't have legal armies anymore, with no heavy weapons on troops, Leman Russ tank, assault weapons on serges. If they manage to drop the SW codex and have the armies usable in the next SM codex then good job GW.