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big squig
09-03-2009, 04:47
I'm not a fan of this whole removing daemons from chaos marines thing still. I think it was just a silly silly move and the whole generic daemons in the chaos codex is all pretty lame.

What they should had done was pull a 'kroot' with the chaos codex. Daemon packs should had been a troop (that doesn't use up a slot). You would get 5-20 lesser daemons, plus 0-5 daemonic beasts, 0-3 daemonic juggernauts, and 0-1 daemonic heralds all as one squad. There would be 4 generic stats for them. The lesser daemons would be pretty standard (ws4, s3, t3, i4, a2,..) The beasts would have a higher I, the juggernauts would be combat monsters hand have 2 wounds, and the herald would be a mini character.

Then you would be able to give the pack a mark. Better yet, a "daemonic blessing" that would make them more like the current daemons from the daemon codex.
Blessing of Khorne:Power weapon, furious charge
Blessing of Nurgle:+1T, FNP, Poison
Blessing of Slaanesh:+2I, rending
Blessing of Tzeentch:+1save, warpfire

The herald could take a steed too.

So, you could summon a squad of 20 blood letters, 5 fleshhounds, 3 blood crushers, and a herald.

Dranthar
09-03-2009, 04:58
To be honest, I like them as is.

The blessing idea sounds good at first glance, but I think all that would end up doing is creating some confusion as to the stat differences between the Chaos Marine Daemons and the "Daemon" Daemons. Honestly, you're better off giving Chaos marine armies actual plagues bearers, rather than 'pseudo-plague bearers'.

Of course, having identical units then introduces a whole new set of problems surrounding balance two armies that play very differently, but now have identical units. It's a pandora's box, and personally I understand why they didn't go down that path.

big squig
09-03-2009, 05:00
Well, I wouldn't have done the daemon codex at all.

Miggidy Mack
09-03-2009, 05:01
They should have had allied rules. Let them ally with guard or chaos marines.

BAM lost & the damned are back, BAM god specific daemons are back!

Znail
09-03-2009, 05:05
Well, I wouldn't have done the daemon codex at all.

I like the Daemon codex alot better then your idea thou.

CrownAxe
09-03-2009, 05:28
Daemon codex is awesome

and as far as i'm aware, CSM aren't really suppose to fight with daemons anyways (though i don't read alot into fluff so idk)

Orkeosaurus
09-03-2009, 06:14
I've never heard that they don't fight with daemons.

To take it a step further, I've haven't heard very many cases of daemons fighting without mortals, outside of a daemon world or something. They need some type of summoner.

big squig
09-03-2009, 06:24
I've never heard that they don't fight with daemons.

To take it a step further, I've haven't heard very many cases of daemons fighting without mortals, outside of a daemon world or something. They need some type of summoner.
Yeah. The daemon codex just doesn't really make much sense in 40K.

Devil Tree
09-03-2009, 06:48
To be perfectly honest, I think dividing them up was the best thing to do.

I donít think there was any way GW could have written a balanced list if they kept Chaos SMs and Demons together. Right now there are 22 units is the Demons Codex (not including Soul Grinders and special characters). Can you even imagine how difficult it would be to combine that with the Chaos SM codex without introducing all kinds of broken combos?

In the end, I think generic demons are still good and in the greater scope of things a pretty good compromise. But even then, donít think of it as loosing your favorite unit, think of being able to take it all on its own with a different army. ;)

Born Again
09-03-2009, 06:51
I like the daemon codex, and think the generic daemons in the CSM book. I don't think any idea of generic daemons that you then upgrade to power-specific works, really. It'd just get messy and complicated, and having them all as one big unit wouldn't really be tactically viable, beasts fight in a much different way to the infantry. There's definitely enough scope within the army to warrant a book, and it's introduced a new force into the game that's different from any other, as opposed to just having another MEQ.

Allies would have been good, but you can in Apoc. anyway, and nothing to stop you doing it as a house rule.

Reaver83
09-03-2009, 09:21
I like the expansion of the daemons, I remember as a kid when the 2nd ed chaos codex came out how I'd always love to do a daemon world army, and guess what I can now!

Do I miss my WE's with khorne daemons, a little, but not much now, and let's be honest I've got a nice 4K APOC game next week, with all manner of pure khorne nastyness.

Anyway I need to plan my daemonic incursion next

Azhrarn
09-03-2009, 09:27
Personally, I really like the Daemon codex (collecting an army of them aswell). It's a remarkably flexible army and while the massed deepstrike is a fickle method of deployment it's an army that's a lot of fun to play. (and that's why I play, not good enough to be a competitive player)
While I dislike the removal of specific daemons from the CSM codex, the thing I miss most is the complete removal of the old legion lists.

Captain Micha
09-03-2009, 13:00
I'm not a fan of this whole removing daemons from chaos marines thing still. I think it was just a silly silly move and the whole generic daemons in the chaos codex is all pretty lame.

What they should had done was pull a 'kroot' with the chaos codex. Daemon packs should had been a troop (that doesn't use up a slot). You would get 5-20 lesser daemons, plus 0-5 daemonic beasts, 0-3 daemonic juggernauts, and 0-1 daemonic heralds all as one squad. There would be 4 generic stats for them. The lesser daemons would be pretty standard (ws4, s3, t3, i4, a2,..) The beasts would have a higher I, the juggernauts would be combat monsters hand have 2 wounds, and the herald would be a mini character.

Then you would be able to give the pack a mark. Better yet, a "daemonic blessing" that would make them more like the current daemons from the daemon codex.
Blessing of Khorne:Power weapon, furious charge
Blessing of Nurgle:+1T, FNP, Poison
Blessing of Slaanesh:+2I, rending
Blessing of Tzeentch:+1save, warpfire

The herald could take a steed too.

So, you could summon a squad of 20 blood letters, 5 fleshhounds, 3 blood crushers, and a herald.

Honestly given the nature of the Chaos Marines (being an Elite army) giving them "cheap" but -effective- cannon fodder would be hideously unbalancing. Also, what you propose unit wise would definitely upset the balance of CSM even more than they are at times tenuously on the grasp of at best. The army would have no weaknesses and a whole lot of strengths.

But in all honesty if they made them like Kroot, they'd suck :p

I like where we are now with the Genero Daemons in Chaos SM, and Daemons Daemons having their own codex.

Solar_Eclipse
09-03-2009, 14:39
I think it should be simple.

Daemons take the mark of the Icon they are summoned from.

Done.

Lord Damocles
09-03-2009, 14:42
Also, what you propose unit wise would definitely upset the balance of CSM even more than they are at times tenuously on the grasp of at best. The army would have no weaknesses and a whole lot of strengths.
Just like 3.5 Chaos!

Because that really worked well didn't it...

W0lf
09-03-2009, 14:46
3.5 chaos was the best book ever written. It was fine.

(yes i started the hobby with that book, yes i played chaos 40k exclusivly and yes im aware it was the most cheese filled book ever written)

volair
09-03-2009, 14:53
The daemon separation into another codex was a fantastic move. There is now a new army essentially, and it happens to be quite competitive and viable for tournaments, as well as being fun to paint, and fun to play. It has a very unique play style and they are readily distinguishable from regular chaos.

Azhrarn
09-03-2009, 14:53
3.5 chaos was the best book ever written. It was fine.

(yes i started the hobby with that book, yes i played chaos 40k exclusivly and yes im aware it was the most cheese filled book ever written)

well, you could make the most cheese fondue filled lists in existence with that book, but you could also make wonderful fluffy armies that were a lot of fun to play, although not overpowered in their effectiveness.
I miss some of those legion lists :cries:, Emperor's Children with mostly sonic ranged weaponry was a lot of fun.

Voodoo Boyz
09-03-2009, 15:02
Please, the 3.5 Chaos book was an abomination. Most lists devolved into Daemon Bombs where your troops existed as a way to get stuff directly into combat (or more likely, Daemons were the troops and you used Bikes or infiltrators to bomb them in).

Oh and by Daemons I mean Daemonettes & Bloodletters; I don't think there were any others that were ever taken in that book.

DhaosAndy
09-03-2009, 15:08
Captain Micha: "Honestly given the nature of the Chaos Marines (being an Elite army) giving them "cheap" but -effective- cannon fodder would be hideously unbalancing."

Which is precisley what generic daemons are, I hate the whole idea of generic daemons, but they do work in a competative list because small squads of CSM's are a waste of time.

Lord Damocles: "Just like 3.5 Chaos!

Because that really worked well didn't it"

Yes, it did.

In general, the uber powerful was hidieously expensive, list making was fun, now you might as well be writing a guard list [yawns].

It only had a few problems, the only use I have for the current incarnation is it shows how easily they could have been fixed, without sucking all the flavour out of CSM's. Shame they couldn't have been content to fix the problems and leave the flavour.

Edit

Rant mode off

All they need to do is take generic daemons out and put the real thing back in, with the points cost adjusted appropriatly and have those that count as troops sit outside the FOC as generics do now, sorted. Can't see it happening though, far to sensible.

sliganian
09-03-2009, 15:18
For what it is worth, I found two squads of 5 Lesser Demons of great help in a 1,500 point list. Great for mudding up the opposition and advancing your battleline forward unexpectedly.

Also, I dislike that the Daemons list -- from inception through testing to publication -- as it is really an impossible list to have a 'balanced' game. From my experiences in test, through all the reports I've heard since, it is either a Win Big list or a Lose Big list, and the results either way are pretty much known by the end of Turn 2.

Fixer
09-03-2009, 15:34
For every player that had a nice, balanced and fluffy army there were ten powergamers who now lament that games are not decided solely by whether or not their uber combat characters/units make base contact with the enemy.

Also iron warriors.

People that started 3.5 Chaos were basically spoiled. More options than any other army, some useless, some massively overpowered. Cult army lists that upgraded your list for the drawback of removing terrible options you would never use, or Thousand Sons which removed pretty much everything from your army list then gave you a free unit leader upgrade (but nothing to help with all the massively expensive options) and a stick of magical pointlessness.

Let us not forget the fun games of 4 heavy support, 8 obliterator (t5 pre-reprint) with a the best ordnance tanks of two other armies, one upgraded with mutated hull lead by the ubiquitous flying demon prince with survivability upgrades and a dreadaxe. Or the matches where you were demon bombed by bikes, or the matches you lost by not getting first turn and being wiped out by infiltrating demonic speed characters or units.

If we had gone straight from the 3rd ed Chaos dex to the 5th ed dex we wouldn't have this problem about considering the 3.5 dex as the be-all and end-all of how chaos should be.


Back on topic.
I actually like the new Daemon dex and the way it is set up.

I do miss the different flavours of demon from the CSM codex but I can see why from a balance point of view they were taken out. In general the army already has troops units of every type, specialised or versatile.

Lord Damocles
09-03-2009, 15:37
Let us not forget the fun games of 4 heavy support, 8 obliterator (t5 pre-reprint) with a the best ordnance tanks of two other armies, one upgraded with mutated hull lead by the ubiquitous flying demon prince with survivability upgrades and a dreadaxe. Or the matches where you were demon bombed by bikes, or the matches you lost by not getting first turn and being wiped out by infiltrating demonic speed characters or units.
Yep. All fine. No balance problems at all. Uh uh.

Also: Siren Princes.

Miggidy Mack
09-03-2009, 15:39
Allies would have been good, but you can in Apoc. anyway, and nothing to stop you doing it as a house rule.

That's how my group rolls! We have a complex allies chart and we allow everyone to do all kinds of fun stuff.


I think it should be simple.

Daemons take the mark of the Icon they are summoned from.

Done.

Now that is a very interesting idea. An army with just 4 human summoners (immune to instant death, several wounds, move fast) and they can deep strike daemons within 12" of them... and they take that summoners mark. That would be pretty cool. Find some way to limit it (make it a 0-1 choice with 4 IC's in it) and let the player either take multiples of one mark or spread them out.

Some bigger daemons also count as having an icon, so once they are on the table you can get more from that god. Man, that would actually be pretty cool. Generic daemons taking shape as they come to the table. It would add a lot tactically.