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CaliforniaGamer
09-03-2009, 17:39
which would be more effective in the role of a close combat VC lord in a larger list (3K+) in slaying multiwound models, tough characters, dragons and greater daemons:

VC lord with:

1.) Dreadlance (autohits), Enchanted Shield, Cursed book, cannot be dispelled, one time use only (opponent attacks at WS1), Red Fury (additional attacks for each wound dealt), Beguile (LD-3 or reroll wounds vs. 1 model), Dread knight.
stat line: WS7 (opponent attacks at WS1 vs. 7 one time), Str 7 on charge auto hits, Attacks: minimum of 4, maximum of 8. Toughness 5Armor Save 1+

OR

2.) Frostblade (wound slays outright), Dread knight, Beguile, Hatred and +1CR.
stat line: WS7, Str 5, reroll wounds if beguile successful, Attacks:4 Toughness 5 Armor Save 2+

OR

3.) ??? crap I havent thought of...

EvC
09-03-2009, 17:50
Why oh why would you put a 60-100 point magic weapon on a model designed to kill Greater Daemons, when Obisidian Armour exists...

Malorian
09-03-2009, 17:50
Well seeing as how usually you'll be charged yourself I'd say the frostblasde it your best bet.

That being said, vampire lords against bloodthirster will always be Nasty and the vampire will only win if the dice gods think it's your birthday. You'd be better off bogging them down with a swarm of zombies.



Why oh why would you put a 60-100 point magic weapon on a model designed to kill Greater Daemons, when Obisidian Armour exists...

Exactly.

snyggejygge
09-03-2009, 18:19
Why would he need 6's to hit with Cursed book?

CaliforniaGamer
09-03-2009, 18:31
Why would he need 6's to hit with Cursed book?

mistaken cut and paste. But yes, with Obsidian, that one oh so key broken peice of flipping daemon gear, will throw the best laid plans to the wolves.

My idea was to actually get the charge on the thirster with a mounted VC lord with the aid of Danse. The idea was the either kill the thirster outright, which is nigh impossible me thinks if Obsidian geared (which is 100% likelihood) or at least attempt to win combat by enough to blow it up in CR. This maybe a futile excercise though.

OldMaster
09-03-2009, 18:35
The Obsidian Armour itself is not that broken, the broken thing is that a Bloodthirster can take it and it can be taken more than once.... whoa, that's mad if I think about it.

Jericho
09-03-2009, 18:59
Yep. Demons being able to take multiples of the same upgrades, and they cannot be removed by items/spells that destroy magic items. Great idea...

Anyway I think the obvious way to try and kill a GD is with static CR. They can only kill so much... so try to isolate him by cutting off/destroying support units. He might win a few rounds by himself, we all know VC can do static CR quite well and that could make all the difference over a few turns.

Malorian
09-03-2009, 19:01
There's always dogs of war cannons...

CaliforniaGamer
09-03-2009, 20:49
Yep. Demons being able to take multiples of the same upgrades, and they cannot be removed by items/spells that destroy magic items. Great idea...

Anyway I think the obvious way to try and kill a GD is with static CR. They can only kill so much... so try to isolate him by cutting off/destroying support units. He might win a few rounds by himself, we all know VC can do static CR quite well and that could make all the difference over a few turns.

Static CR vs. a thirster is only going to take you so far. Assuming he flank or even rear charges and has immortal fury+firestorm blade..7 whopping attacks, he is rerolling hits likely on a '3'+wounding on 2s+1 flank, so he has a round to round final CR of 5-7, which means would have to counterattack with a fully ranked 2nd unit with unit banner, bsb, numbers to get +6 static CR, +7 if you are in his flank. That isnt a remotely done deal especially if he happens to get within 12 inches of his flipping stubborn bsb...

Anyone care to share how they deal with a routine thirster in their gaming group?

Malorian
09-03-2009, 20:55
As I said, a swarm of zombies. He's going to kill anything on 3+/2+ anyway, so it might as well be something cheap.

Just raise a big unit and vanhels it into the bloodthirster (hopefully on the flank or rear). You won't win combat and will never kill him, but that's a big chunk of his army trying to kill 50 points.

Other than that, you may need to fall back on the von carstein ring to protect your general.

Jerrus
09-03-2009, 21:48
Vampire Lord with Red Fury, Infinate Hatred, Walking Death, Balefire Spike, Cursed Book, Nightshroud and Crown of the Damned on a Zombie Dragon has a pretty good chance of taking a Bloodthirster down.

Malorian
09-03-2009, 21:52
Vampire Lord with Red Fury, Infinate Hatred, Walking Death, Balefire Spike, Cursed Book, Nightshroud and Crown of the Damned on a Zombie Dragon has a pretty good chance of taking a Bloodthirster down.

No chance...

And isn't this more expenive than the bloodthirster you are actually trying to kill?

CaliforniaGamer
09-03-2009, 22:05
the problem with the cursed book on a zom dragon riding lord, is the thirster would then direct attacks on the dragon, wasting the item.(or can you declare to "use it" after attacks have been declared?)

I would still squeeze a beguile in there to reroll wounds vs. the thirster.

would have to do the math on Lord with 4 hatred attacks Str 7, potentially rerolling to wound+hatredx5 attacks zombie dragon vs. a thirster.

regardless though, zom dragon is only wounding on a 4+ so maybe squeezes 2-3 wounds, 1 of which might save, adding only 1-2 to the CR total. The vampire hits 3 times with hatred, wounds hopefully all 3 times with beguile, add another 3 attacks with red fury, rerolls those misses and beguile hopefully is active to squeeze out the last 1-2 wounds you need. So there is a very good chance actually vs. a thrister.

But yes this like 750 points of vampire to deal with 550 points of DoC....

Jerrus
09-03-2009, 22:34
The Cursed Book doesn't say that it has to be activated in the start of the CC round, so it can be activated when the Bloodthirster declares he's attacking the Vampire.

Killling a incarnation of the Blood God in hand-to-hand combat is costly ;)

Banshee's scream can do some damage if you get lucky :)

Arguleon-veq
10-03-2009, 15:25
The Dreadlance Lord wont kill most Greater Daemons on the charge and after that, he wont be able to do much damage at all.

Plus, if you want to be hunting big flying gribblies like the Thirster, a horse will not cut it, you need to fly.

So you take the Frostblade Lord with Flying, Beguile, Hatred, etc. He actually stands a 66% chance of offing a Thirster on the charge. That is assuming Beguile doesnt work.

The bonus with this guy is that your opponent wont know he is flying as he isnt on some obvious flying mount/monster, so you will probably get the jump on him, which you will need.

'Why oh why would you put a 60-100 point magic weapon on a model designed to kill Greater Daemons, when Obisidian Armour exists... '

Because it is a pretty useless item for Bloodthirsters seeing as there are only a couple of character/weapon combos in the game that can both threaten him and actually ENGAGE him on their own terms. Especially when with those points you could get S7, Eternal Hatred, Dispell Scroll and a 3+ Save.

jax40kplyr1
10-03-2009, 16:07
Since everyone has focused in on the bloodthirster vs. VC Lord, I would still have to say combat res.
For 550 pts, my bloodthirster takes Str 7 flaming, obsidian armor, and reroll misses.
The only competitive running I've seen for taking this guy on has been the VC Lord on Zombie Dragon.
If the VC Lord is tooled up like the top 2 examples, I'm going after the vampire. Yes the cursed book can throw off my mathhammer, but I have never seen someone use it. If he has the 4+ ward save item, I'm going after the dragon.
Against the vampire dread knight = 3s to hit, averages 4, rerolls gets another 1 or 2. Wounds on 2+, so 4 or 5 wounds. No regen, so 4 or 5+ saves. Average saves 1. Then he's dead and the game is over.
Against the VL/Zombie Dragon = 4s to hit the dragon, averages 3.5, reroll gets another 1.75 (we'll just say 5 total). Wounds on 2+ with no save, so 4 or 5 wounds to the dragon. Strong potential to kill the dragon outright. With the new FAQ, the rider loses the dreadlance anyways. Vampire needs 4s to hit, averages 2, reroll gets another to 3 total. Wounds on 5s - wounds 1. 5+ AS, 5+ WS. Might make it. Possibly gets another attack, but low chance of it wounding again. Combat res - 4 or 5 to 1. Pops VC Lord.
I know how much everyone loves mathhammer, but generally BT charging VC lord = bad things happening for VC.

Jerrus
10-03-2009, 17:32
Since the Vampire Lord has the ability to magically charge, he does have a better chance to get the charge. There aren't that many things that can stand up to a Bloodthirster Charge and survive.

An alternative would be to have a Vampire Lord with the Carstien Ring to lure the Bloodthirster into combat with a large block of infantry, and then when the Lord is killed, one resurects him in another unit, leaving the Bloodthirster trashing Skeletons/Ghouls or whatever for the rest of the game :)

shredshredxx
10-03-2009, 17:33
the lord i run has avatar of death(great weapon) infinite hatred, beguile, walking death, the flayed hauberk, crown of the damned, and the cursed book.

i run him in a unit of 14 grave guard.

took out a high elf lord on a star dragon last tournament,

and consistently wrecks my buddy's etherblade keeper of secrets.

kills greater daemons and dragons, isn't that what the first post was??

never faced a bloodthirster, doubt he'd do very well without some flanking support, but he takes care of every other daemon/dragon/monster/lord just fine.

EvC
10-03-2009, 18:14
Now that sounds like a great combo, although I'd be so worried about the Keeper getting a wound, then stopping the Vamp Lord from attacking...


'Why oh why would you put a 60-100 point magic weapon on a model designed to kill Greater Daemons, when Obisidian Armour exists... '

Because it is a pretty useless item for Bloodthirsters seeing as there are only a couple of character/weapon combos in the game that can both threaten him and actually ENGAGE him on their own terms. Especially when with those points you could get S7, Eternal Hatred, Dispell Scroll and a 3+ Save.

The Daemonic Gift that prevents the BT from being vulnerable to the things best designed to kill him is useless? Not taken many logic classes, have you? :p

Seriously though, as other Daemon players will and have corrected you, Obsidian Armour is a great buy, and you'll see it very often- especially with the Blade of Realities kicking about these days. Every BT I've ever faced has had the item on them, and I know that doesn't mean every BT in existence wears it- but it is a pretty popular choice, with good reason.

CaliforniaGamer
10-03-2009, 18:27
I plan to do the mathhammer later, but if the VC lord is properly equipped meaning: on a zom dragon with infinite hatred, beguile, red fury, cursed book and 4+ ward save crown, he should stand a very good chance of beating of thirster in 2 consecutive combat rounds EVEN if charged.

Assumptions:
1.) Thirster has obsidian armor and immortal fury.
2.) Thirster will essentially always attack the VC lord on first contact with the assumption that he doesnt have the cursed book, leading to a flail initially and victory for the vampire via CR.
3.) VC lord will get a Danse for ASF and rerolls for his own CC phase.

Once again, I believe the VC lord has a slight mathematical advantage here but will confirm it.

On the charge, which highly favors the VC lord due his 28" range when Dansed vs. 20" for thirster, the Str7 hits from the balefire spike (making a meager investment in a magical weapon providing +2 str isnt bad even when facing the Obsid armor) I think definitely turn the balance.

even so, this is a massive point bomb needed for the VCs even to come into the same ballpark as the DOC.

Arguleon-veq
10-03-2009, 18:43
Every Bloodthirster I have seen has never had it, including recent tourny winners.

Why take an item that will only be usefull against 1 possibly 2 things in the ENTIRE game that can actually use it against you? at 50 points! A good Daemons player will not be charged by a Realities Oldblood, if the opponent has Steed of Shadows in the same list, you know to save your dice to dispel it.

So I would say that its your logic that is pretty off. When trying to squeeze the most out of a list. You dont waste 50 points, on something that you will never actually be useful unless you play very badly or are facing 1-2 things in the whole game that actually pose a threat and even then you have the same chance of getting the charge as them and will beat them when you do. Obsidian Armour or not.

That is much worse than a High Elf player taking the anti dwarf items in their take on all comers list. At least you have a much better chance of facing Dwarfs than you do the 1-2 things that will ever mean the Obsidian armour is useful unless you are a bad player.

EvC
10-03-2009, 18:55
The main reason I would say to not bother with Obsidian Armour, is simply because the biggest threat out there is other Daemon armies, against which it is useless. However, that doesn't change the fact that many players do use it, even if your opponents haven't.

Arguleon-veq
10-03-2009, 19:11
Oh I dont doubt that people do, just saying it isnt a good choice.

CaliforniaGamer
10-03-2009, 19:43
Every Bloodthirster I have seen has never had it, including recent tourny winners.

Why take an item that will only be usefull against 1 possibly 2 things in the ENTIRE game that can actually use it against you? at 50 points! A good Daemons player will not be charged by a Realities Oldblood, if the opponent has Steed of Shadows in the same list, you know to save your dice to dispel it.

So I would say that its your logic that is pretty off. When trying to squeeze the most out of a list. You dont waste 50 points, on something that you will never actually be useful unless you play very badly or are facing 1-2 things in the whole game that actually pose a threat and even then you have the same chance of getting the charge as them and will beat them when you do. Obsidian Armour or not.

That is much worse than a High Elf player taking the anti dwarf items in their take on all comers list. At least you have a much better chance of facing Dwarfs than you do the 1-2 things that will ever mean the Obsidian armour is useful unless you are a bad player.

okay, how do you kit your BT for tournaments?
immortal fury+str10?

Arguleon-veq
10-03-2009, 21:58
I dont use one, I see lots with Firestorm Blade, Immortal Fury, Armour, Spell Breaker.

Whitesox
10-03-2009, 22:05
okay, how do you kit your BT for tournaments?
immortal fury+str10?


The Bloodthirsters in tournies I've been involved in are generally equipped as:

Immortal Fury
Firestorm Blade
Armour of Khorne
Spell Breaker

Much better all rounder, like others have said bloodthirsters normally ignore characters which could harm them and obliterate units by flank and rear charges without characters in.... 24" charge and being a large target works great for that

CaliforniaGamer
10-03-2009, 22:40
The Bloodthirsters in tournies I've been involved in are generally equipped as:

Immortal Fury
Firestorm Blade
Armour of Khorne
Spell Breaker

Much better all rounder, like others have said bloodthirsters normally ignore characters which could harm them and obliterate units by flank and rear charges without characters in.... 24" charge and being a large target works great for that

Then pretty much a frostblade wielding VC lord on zomb dragon with hatred and beguile should be able to do it: averages 2 hits, another hit with reroll, BT fails beguile LD-3 check slightly more 1/2 the time so averaging a bit more than 1.5wounds, AS-2 for str5 hit=5+AS with 5+ ward, slight 0.5 wounds on average get through so autokill slightly more than 50% of the time. If VC lord doesnt kill on charge OR is charged, he is screwed tho...

With 2nd config (conservative approach, all comers kit): balefire lance, cursed book, crown of damned, nightshroud and red fury charge+hatred+beguile: Str 7 hit, wounding on 3s with beguile 2-3 wounds, allowing 2-3 more attacks, so 1-2 more wounds for red fury, 1-2 wounds for the zom dragon. Total: 4-8 wounds. Should this fail to kill, BT attacks back and you activate the book. Whiff for the BT or at most 1-2, CR should kill the BT. Should the BT somehow survive the encounter CC phase, the next CC phase with nightshroud VC lord is striking first vs. BT Int of 1 and finishes the job with ease.

Mr Uber
11-03-2009, 00:00
Hey there folks my 1st post on WS.

Isn't trying to kill Great Daemons with the linchpin of your army a little risky?

Vs a BT one killing blow hit and you loose the game. Isn't it better to protect your flanks and beat him with combat rez where if he gets a bad roll he dies?

CaliforniaGamer
11-03-2009, 00:47
Hey there folks my 1st post on WS.

Isn't trying to kill Great Daemons with the linchpin of your army a little risky?

Vs a BT one killing blow hit and you loose the game. Isn't it better to protect your flanks and beat him with combat rez where if he gets a bad roll he dies?

The lord on dragon is really only being fielded in a 3K or greater list where you have a VC lord general as another character=no risk per se.

CaliforniaGamer
11-03-2009, 04:08
ok in a roll marathon: the VC lord on zom dragon with beguile, bale spike, cursed book, red fury, infinite hatred, nightshroud, crown of damned is able to beat a thirster (irregardless of obsid armor) roughly 50% of the time on the charge.

Assumptions to scenario 1:
beguile is going off on the thirster 58.33% of the time, when it does the odds of killing the thirster in either direct CC, CR or in the following CC phase is high.
Both the dragon and VC lord are hitting on 4s, rerolling misses, VC lord wounding on 3s on the charge potentially rerolling wounds, red fury adding attacks, dragon wounding on 4s
Typically 3-4 wounds are laid on the thirster on the charge.
Thirster does on the average 1-2 wounds back on the vampire assuming all attacks of the BT were directed vs. the vampire lord (which I think is perfectly logical) and the cursed book is used, reducing the BT WS to 1, needing 5s+ to hit, 2+s to wound, vampire is saving on crown WS4+
CR victory to the Vampires but by a small margin 1-2, odds are that the BT does not take additional damage.

Next round assumes again all attacks of the Thirster are directed at the VC lord, nightshroud kicks (once again your opponent hasnt seen your list and doesnt know your kit until you need to reveal it) in reducing Int of BT to 1, vampire goes does on average 1-2 wounds, battle should be over...thirster sleeps with the fishes.

Any of those assumptions seems illogical, ie-would an average DoC assume his best course of action to off the VC lord first thus directly all attacks to the lord until dead?

sulla
11-03-2009, 05:08
Any of those assumptions seems illogical, ie-would an average DoC assume his best course of action to off the VC lord first thus directly all attacks to the lord until dead?

Problem is, while the VC lord is kitted to beat a BT in combat, horrors and flamers can kick the snot out of him at range and a unit of hounds with a 0+ armoured herald in them can beat him relatively easily as his frostblade is next to useless vs it.

EvC
11-03-2009, 12:24
ok in a roll marathon: the VC lord on zom dragon with beguile, bale spike, cursed book, red fury, infinite hatred, nightshroud, crown of damned is able to beat a thirster (irregardless of obsid armor) roughly 50% of the time on the charge.

Assumptions to scenario 1:
beguile is going off on the thirster 58.33% of the time, when it does the odds of killing the thirster in either direct CC, CR or in the following CC phase is high.
Both the dragon and VC lord are hitting on 4s, rerolling misses, VC lord wounding on 3s on the charge potentially rerolling wounds, red fury adding attacks, dragon wounding on 4s
Typically 3-4 wounds are laid on the thirster on the charge.
Thirster does on the average 1-2 wounds back on the vampire assuming all attacks of the BT were directed vs. the vampire lord (which I think is perfectly logical) and the cursed book is used, reducing the BT WS to 1, needing 5s+ to hit, 2+s to wound, vampire is saving on crown WS4+
CR victory to the Vampires but by a small margin 1-2, odds are that the BT does not take additional damage.

Next round assumes again all attacks of the Thirster are directed at the VC lord, nightshroud kicks (once again your opponent hasnt seen your list and doesnt know your kit until you need to reveal it) in reducing Int of BT to 1, vampire goes does on average 1-2 wounds, battle should be over...thirster sleeps with the fishes.

Any of those assumptions seems illogical, ie-would an average DoC assume his best course of action to off the VC lord first thus directly all attacks to the lord until dead?

Wow, 50% chance for the Bloodthirster to be killed by a model that is far more important and expensive than him, AND the VC player has totally foregone all magic upgrades for his Lord to get there. Simply put, the VC player is unlikely to get VHD off, so he only really has a 50% chance of charging. What happens when he is charged instead?

Also any honourable player would reveal that his Vampire Lord either has Light Armour (and therefore the Nightshroud) at the start of battle, or after he has taken his first wound. )"Any armour save?" "Nope, just the Nightshroud for 6+, so none"). If another assumption is that the VC Lord is NOT the general, then assume the BT is hitting the Zombie Dragon each time for easy CR. He almost definitely kills him, and the Lord crumbles.

So, another fail...

Arguleon-veq
11-03-2009, 12:43
He doesnt need the Dragon though, so there is a lot of points saved, the Dragon really adds very little to the combat. Even if the Vamp is the general, the Thirster would still attack the Dragon anyway and kill the Vamp through Res.

The Flying Frostblade Lord has about a 50-75% shot of killing the Thirster [depending on if Beguile goes off or not]. He can charge out of units, so he is kept safe from Horror flickering fire and he has a 360 charge arc when out of units if you want to stop that Thirster dropping behind your lines. Plus you can charge OVER your own units as the Thirster is a large target.

If playing closed lists, the model doesnt even need to have wings so your opponent wont have a clue.

On top of this, at 2000 points you can still fit 14 Power Dice in the Vamps army, just make that Lord a Lvl3.

EvC
11-03-2009, 12:48
The Dragon does make the Vamp -1 to hit thanks to the Cloud of Flies, but it doesn't strike me as particularly sound. For the Frostblade Vamp I would first try and find some way of determining if he has Obisidian Armour or not (Have Dire Wolves charged him, and determine what Gifts he has to see if he has spare points for the big armour), and if not, then I'd certainly give it a shot. Having magic backup to aid getting off VHD is certainly nice as well.

One of my mates actually managed to do 4 wounds to a BT with a regular Vampire Hero with Sword of Striking and Red Fury. A little bit lucky, mind ;)

Malice&Mizery
11-03-2009, 12:48
He doesnt need the Dragon though, so there is a lot of points saved, the Dragon really adds very little to the combat. Even if the Vamp is the general, the Thirster would still attack the Dragon anyway and kill the Vamp through Res.

The Flying Frostblade Lord has about a 50-75% shot of killing the Thirster [depending on if Beguile goes off or not]. He can charge out of units, so he is kept safe from Horror flickering fire and he has a 360 charge arc when out of units if you want to stop that Thirster dropping behind your lines. Plus you can charge OVER your own units as the Thirster is a large target.

If playing closed lists, the model doesnt even need to have wings so your opponent wont have a clue.

On top of this, at 2000 points you can still fit 14 Power Dice in the Vamps army, just make that Lord a Lvl3.

You're still relying on the 'Thirster not having Obby Armour though.

CaliforniaGamer
11-03-2009, 15:22
Wow, 50% chance for the Bloodthirster to be killed by a model that is far more important and expensive than him, AND the VC player has totally foregone all magic upgrades for his Lord to get there. Simply put, the VC player is unlikely to get VHD off, so he only really has a 50% chance of charging. What happens when he is charged instead?

Also any honourable player would reveal that his Vampire Lord either has Light Armour (and therefore the Nightshroud) at the start of battle, or after he has taken his first wound. )"Any armour save?" "Nope, just the Nightshroud for 6+, so none"). If another assumption is that the VC Lord is NOT the general, then assume the BT is hitting the Zombie Dragon each time for easy CR. He almost definitely kills him, and the Lord crumbles.

So, another fail...

This would most definitely not be a VC lord general, my theoretical scenario would be in 3000 pt games and larger. Once again this is a theoretical scenario. I would ask why you think a Thirster led army could possibly somehow stop a blitz VH danse spam? I definitely doubt they could.

In my roll marathon I completely missed the Cloud of Flies, which when the Cursed Book is activated would have the Thirster striking at the VC lord needing 6s to hit, even with 7 attacks and eternal hatred, the lord would take 1 wound or none when wearing the crown of the damned.
That would pump up the average CR victory by the VCs to 1 for outnumbering, 3-4 for wounds, for a total of 4-5.

I still think IF the thirster gets the charge off, he still directs all attacks at the Vampire lord. He sees the soft squishy 400+ point vampire on a dragon and whacks at him, the shroud which is modeled to look like nothing more than a padded dinner jacket is activated, Vampire then strikes first regardless and assuming beguile gets off still wins.

The ? of whether of the greater daemon offs the zombie dragon for easy CR is a rough one though that Im struggling with. If people feel like they would likely do that, then the zom is more of liability and you are better off putting the lord on a nightmare in a unit we can charge with/out of.
Note: my projections basically are irregardless of obsidian or not, although I would agree with posters previous who say it is very unlikely to actually encounter a BT with armor as it is of limited actual usefulness and there are better things.

Whitesox
11-03-2009, 19:00
How to beat the BT is very easy.. you only need two magic items and a half decent magic phase which you should be able to muster against a BT since it takes a lot of points away from the opposition to create a good phase

Sceptre de Noirot on one model
Book of Arkhan on another
then mass Invocation of Nehek

easy... on average 11 zombies are created each time you get raise dead off, book of arkhan lets them charge and invocation raises on average 7.5 zombies per turn, with two successful castings every turn (which is very easy in a VC list) you raise enough to keep the thirster busy for the whole game

CaliforniaGamer
11-03-2009, 19:38
How to beat the BT is very easy.. you only need two magic items and a half decent magic phase which you should be able to muster against a BT since it takes a lot of points away from the opposition to create a good phase

Sceptre de Noirot on one model
Book of Arkhan on another
then mass Invocation of Nehek

easy... on average 11 zombies are created each time you get raise dead off, book of arkhan lets them charge and invocation raises on average 7.5 zombies per turn, with two successful castings every turn (which is very easy in a VC list) you raise enough to keep the thirster busy for the whole game

Thirster Pit of Tar trap is fairly straightforward and I believe the only logical way to engage him in games under 3K.
Assuming he is killing 7 zombies per round and you started with 25+ zombies: winning combat resolution by 7 (-3 for zom ranks -1 for zom outnumbering)=3 additional zoms dead to CR, 2 if near BSB, you only need to get off 2 IONs/ CC turn (big note: essentially since there are 2 CC phases per turn, you need to dedicate 4 successful casting of ION to this unit or roughly 7-8 attempts) to stay at status quo and essentially tarpit the big **** for 6 consecutive turns. You set about protecting the tarpit at all costs ie-not allowing opponent letters, daemonettes etc get off flank charges on the zoms and nibble on parts of the DOC army where ever you can.

Another route might be a big ghoul block or even skeletons with FC+ warbanner, challenge the BT with unit champion, lose by 6 in challenge, ranks+banner+war banner+US+music, thirster loses by 1 in your CC phase. DOC CC phase he kills 7 more skeletons in combat, another 1 in CR. You would only need to get off 2 or so successful IONs here.

Whitesox
11-03-2009, 21:30
Thirster Pit of Tar trap is fairly straightforward and I believe the only logical way to engage him in games under 3K.
Assuming he is killing 7 zombies per round and you started with 25+ zombies: winning combat resolution by 7 (-3 for zom ranks -1 for zom outnumbering)=3 additional zoms dead to CR, 2 if near BSB, you only need to get off 2 IONs/ CC turn (big note: essentially since there are 2 CC phases per turn, you need to dedicate 4 successful casting of ION to this unit or roughly 7-8 attempts) to stay at status quo and essentially tarpit the big **** for 6 consecutive turns. You set about protecting the tarpit at all costs ie-not allowing opponent letters, daemonettes etc get off flank charges on the zoms and nibble on parts of the DOC army where ever you can.

Another route might be a big ghoul block or even skeletons with FC+ warbanner, challenge the BT with unit champion, lose by 6 in challenge, ranks+banner+war banner+US+music, thirster loses by 1 in your CC phase. DOC CC phase he kills 7 more skeletons in combat, another 1 in CR. You would only need to get off 2 or so successful IONs here.

like you say it is very hard to tarpit the thirster for the whole game but you can normally keep him busy for at least two turns until he gets the flankers in position. This gives you time to get your infantry into position (like the skellie warrior block with war banner) to try to beat him on CR or hard hitters (like black/blood knights) to take a few wounds off him and beat him on CR more.

The last game i played against the thirster i used this tactic, raised a zombie unit up 20+ vanhells into him, tarpitted him and on the next turn i charged him in the rear with 12 black knights with banner of the barrows. I rejected his challange. I moved my caster lord with helm of commandment to give the bonus to the black knights. They only caused two wounds and suffered four but it was enough to tip the battle into my favour (+3 rank bonus, +1 banner, +1 outnumber, +1 flank charge, +2 kills vs +4 kills) the thirster went pop

point for point there is not much which can kill the blood thirster in hand to hand, so use every other tool at you disposal. As soon as you sacrifice units worth more points then your opponents units just to kill it you are on the road to defeat

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 16:40
Is there a special or core unit that can deal with the BT? Backed up by some hero i am sure, but getting away from the one vs. one VC vs. BT, as a whole at 2500 to 3000 pts, how do you deal with the BT besides tarpits?

Arguleon-veq
12-03-2009, 17:49
Nope, he smashes pretty much any decent unit. You dont want him fighting them.

Obviously tarpitting him is the best and safest solution.

Offing him with a Vamp Lord is just so cool though :p

g0ddy
12-03-2009, 18:02
Hmmmm....of course this takes a bit of 'stars aligning' in your favour.

Red Fury, Infinate Hatred, Beguile

Accursed Armour, Crown of Damnation, Cursed Book (maybe?)

Now you need another Vampire with.. the Helm of Commandment... either said vampire (lord would be great for WS7) or a another one with Forbidden Lore to cast ... "Rawr Im a bear!" (sic. Bears Anger) on the first vampire...

See where this is going?

7 S7 attacks hitting on 3's (for atleast one round) rerolling misses, possibly rerolling wounds, and generating extra attacks from red fury. And youre toughness SEVEN with a 4+ wardsave to ward of the enemies attacks.

:evilgrin:

~ zilla

Whitesox
12-03-2009, 18:17
Is there a special or core unit that can deal with the BT? Backed up by some hero i am sure, but getting away from the one vs. one VC vs. BT, as a whole at 2500 to 3000 pts, how do you deal with the BT besides tarpits?

the thirster will just challange the hero and kill him and get a decent overkill bonus... its best to either have a unit with a good cr bonus and it needs to be led by a character that will not get killed by the thirster so you win on cr... thats easier said then done so just tarpit him

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 18:23
The last game i played against the thirster i used this tactic, raised a zombie unit up 20+ vanhells into him, tarpitted him and on the next turn i charged him in the rear with 12 black knights with banner of the barrows. I rejected his challange. I moved my caster lord with helm of commandment to give the bonus to the black knights.

Can you do this? Meaning can a character who rejects a challenge move to the back and use the helm since he is then technically out of combat b-2-b?

I was under the impression you had to essentially declare the helm and mesure distance at the very beginning of the CC phase ie-before challenges thus since the VC lord was in combat technically at the beginning of the phase his helm could not be used...

If I was wrong and this tactic is legal then it opens my eyes to an entirely new way to play the helm.

g0ddy
12-03-2009, 18:27
Im am not sure... I know the helm can be used at any point during your 'combat phase turn' aka... you can fight one combat... break the vampire out of contact with enemy, then use the helm later that turn in a different combat.

Not sure how it works here though...

~ zilla

Whitesox
12-03-2009, 18:28
sorry i didnt describe it well enough.. the black knight champion rejected the challange my vc lord was in a bunker unit away from the combat

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 18:40
sorry i didnt describe it well enough.. the black knight champion rejected the challange my vc lord was in a bunker unit away from the combat

bah...but your description raised an interesting situation I had literally never considered in 100+ hours of gaming with the helm.

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 19:18
Nope, he smashes pretty much any decent unit. You dont want him fighting them.

Obviously tarpitting him is the best and safest solution.

Offing him with a Vamp Lord is just so cool though :p

What about hitting him with a unit of lots of high str attacks. no magic, just lost of str 5 or 6 attacks, or is it that he kills your front rank before they get to attack

does the BT get ASF?

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 20:01
What about hitting him with a unit of lots of high str attacks. no magic, just lost of str 5 or 6 attacks, or is it that he kills your front rank before they get to attack

does the BT get ASF?

Nope and there is no way to kit a BT I know of to ever get ASF, thankfully

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 20:04
So is there a unit that can bury the BT in str 5 or str 6 attacks? Would that work? Say WS 5, str 5 2 attacks x 5 models?

Malorian
12-03-2009, 20:08
So is there a unit that can bury the BT in str 5 or str 6 attacks? Would that work? Say WS 5, str 5 2 attacks x 5 models?

I know you're trying to get at the blood knights, but that just won't work. They have to make a challenge and the BT will slaughter them.

However a unit with 5 vampire lords all tripped out to kill in some fast unit could do it. BT makes a challenge, picks one lord to go to the back, and the other four give him a beating.

Then again, at that point there could be 5 bloodthirsters...


Is there really any reason to continue this debate? Isn't it now clear that BT killing vampire lords just don't work?

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 20:22
This makes me sad :( What race can deal with the BT on a even basis? HE ? DE?? Empire? Lizzies?

Malorian
12-03-2009, 20:29
I'd say your typical empire character that switches stats and minus's one attack will do just fine :)

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 20:52
This makes me sad :( What race can deal with the BT on a even basis? HE ? DE?? Empire? Lizzies?

Skulltaker could definitely off a BT but again that is DoC....

I would say pound for pound the BT is THE absolute beast of close combat in warhammer due to its flying range and overall possible configs. It can win games single handedly and I would challenge anyone to find something better at its given role.

Arguleon-veq
12-03-2009, 20:57
The Frostblade Flyer really does stand a great chance though if you arent facing Obsid armour. Its always worth a go, 50-75% is nothing to sniff at. Especially if its just a fun game, obviously not advisable in a tourny.

Plus that Frostblade flyer is handy against other Daemon units, he slaughters Flesh Hounds and Fiends 2 very common choices.

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 21:06
I was hoping for a core or special unit to get the job done, so that is too bad. I hate dumping tons of points into heros

Caine Mangakahia
12-03-2009, 21:36
Regardless of how you tool up your VC, a Bloodthirster has a good chance of surviving whatever the vampire throws at him even on the charge, especially if he has ObsidA. After that, only the most beneficient of dice rolls will allow him to survive the BTs following attacks, and even if that does happen, the Vampire certainly wouldn't survive a second round.

The Song of Spears
12-03-2009, 21:44
I'd say your typical empire character that switches stats and minus's one attack will do just fine :)

Yeah, i guess that's one case there that item is worth more than its weight in gold :) usually its not so hot against the HE around here

would a reverse ward save mean much standing against the BT? how hard is its to would then BT for a str 4 unit?

TiechoNortheal
13-03-2009, 01:51
First off, to me, the Nightshroud seems like a no-brainer when going BT hunting. Takes the charging out of the equation. Vampire get's to strike first, period.

Also, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned this yet.

Taking Forbidden Lore and choosing either the Lore of Fire or the Lore of Beasts? Bear's Anger or Flaming Sword of Rhuin, combined with Red Fury, should make the Vampire MORE than hitty enough to take a Thirster down. Really, either 7 Attacks at Str 7, or 5 attacks at Str 8, hitting on 2's, ones that get through giving extra attacks. You can even Danse the Vampire to get re-rolls to hit. He's only got 5 wounds and a 5+ Ward, and either of the spells really care much about the Obsidian Armor.

True, it's magic, so it can be stopped, but we're talking about a Bloodthirster here, the army can't have a huge magic defense. Even money is that his limited dispel ability is going to be commited towards stopping himself getting tarpitted.

iamfanboy
13-03-2009, 04:47
I was hoping for a core or special unit to get the job done, so that is too bad. I hate dumping tons of points into heros

Isn't the best plan so far just raising up a zombie tarpit unit and IoN'ing them to keep the ranks up? In that case, you don't even have to spend initial points on the unit. Even if he smashes through one unit, you can always Raise Dead again.

Personally, I think there are more important things for a Vampire Lord to do than get tied up with a Bloodthirster, like making sure that the army keeps shambling forward.

vahouth
13-03-2009, 12:38
First off, to me, the Nightshroud seems like
Taking Forbidden Lore and choosing either the Lore of Fire or the Lore of Beasts? Bear's Anger or Flaming Sword of Rhuin, combined with Red Fury, should make the Vampire MORE than hitty enough to take a Thirster down. Really, either 7 Attacks at Str 7, or 5 attacks at Str 8, hitting on 2's, ones that get through giving extra attacks.


Isn't the Flaming sword of Rhuin countered by Obsidian Armour?
I mean you're equiping your lord with a magical weapon, right?

TiechoNortheal
13-03-2009, 14:19
According to the text of the spell, it's debatable.

It says: "the target gains +3 Strength, +1 Attack, and hits on a basic score of a 2+. He also counts as wielding a magic weapon."

Or something along those lines. I don't have the book infront of me, but I do remember that the Magical Weapon part is attached at the end, almost as an afterthought to give the guy magical attacks. I would be inclined to read it that the only thing the model loses from Obsidian armor is his attacks being magical, as the rest of the bonuses are simply provided by the spell.

I could be wrong, but that's how I remember seeing it.

Scratch the above. I went back and found my book. From the wording, yes, it would infact be negated by the Obsidian Armor.

In any case, it's still a perfectly viable option with Lore of Beasts and the Bear's Anger.

EvC
14-03-2009, 18:14
This would most definitely not be a VC lord general, my theoretical scenario would be in 3000 pt games and larger. Once again this is a theoretical scenario. I would ask why you think a Thirster led army could possibly somehow stop a blitz VH danse spam? I definitely doubt they could.

I still think IF the thirster gets the charge off, he still directs all attacks at the Vampire lord. He sees the soft squishy 400+ point vampire on a dragon and whacks at him, the shroud which is modeled to look like nothing more than a padded dinner jacket is activated, Vampire then strikes first regardless and assuming beguile gets off still wins.

If the Lord is not the general, then the Dragon will definitely be targetted instead, assuming the Daemon player isn't an idiot. He may not realise the Nightshroud is on the Vamp, but he should definitely know about the Crown of the Damned.

As to whether the Daemon player can stop a Van Hels Danse blitz, I have to ask, have you ever actually played against serious Daemons? At 2K, he will probably have 3 x 10 Horrors for core, 2 Herald wizards at least and probably the Standard of Sundering, making Van Hels harder to cast. That's 7DD and -2 to cast at 2K. At 3K, I'd guess on 9DD. And probably a second Greater Daemon as well, although that's beside the point.

The assumptions we are required to make for your plan to work are epic, contrived, and really unlikely. Unfortunately. Yes, a 600 point Vampire Lord on Dragon backed up by a 450 point caster Lord might be able to charge the Bloodthirster, and then he has a 50% chance of victory. Using over 1000 points... better hope the Daemon player has forgotten the rest of his army!