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PinkFellSquig
10-03-2009, 02:53
I'm looking to update my Moria gobbos for the WotR expansion. Besides the obvious bases, what should I do to get the following ready...

Durbūrs

Shaman

Shaman

Captain w/ Bow

Captain w/ Shield

Captain w/ Shield

16 Goblins w/ Shield

16 Goblins w/ Spears

16 Goblins w/ Bows

6 Backstabbin' Bastards

2 Goblin Drums

Cave Troll w/ Chain

Cave Troll w/ Spear

...

What units should I add (Bats?) or get more of (Gobbos/Trolls?)? Will allies work here as they have in Legions? I would ideally just like to throw in Dwellers Below for speed and killiness, but worry that I won't be able to because of the same restrictions on allies as in LoME. I also have all 9 Ringwraiths, on horse or on foot, and am open to other suggestions for allies.

Thanks ahead of time for any feedback!
~J~

Joewrightgm
10-03-2009, 03:17
Honestly, the Wargs and Spiders are amazing in War; also bats are great.

Wrathiel
10-03-2009, 04:25
Druzhag is fantastic: the same points as a regular shaman, but MUCH better. Mastery level 2, and access to two lores of magic makes him a no brainer instead of one of your shamans.

Some kind of cavalry is good. Bats are good (terror and flying) Spiders are great (high str. and poison) and wargs are mediocre and cheap.

Moria needs big stuff to really do well. Trolls are great, and I think the dragon may be the best single model in the game.

lotrchampion
10-03-2009, 04:54
More Goblins. Couple of Shades. Druzhag. Sorted. =)

Like in the SBG, you don't need much fancy-pants composition to make Moria effective-hordes of Warriors and things to make life even more difficult for your opponent, such as Bat Swarms and Shades, is all you need for a decent force.

Balrog > Dragon by far for me. Trolls are good if they reach the enemy, but they are likely to get shot to tiny pieces by any decent archery. The inclusion of a Wraith wouldn't be a bad idea either if you fancy a magic buff.

Oh. And MORE GOBBOS! :D

SwordJon
10-03-2009, 06:24
And don't think you need to take a Dragon or Balrog. You can buy quite a few trolls for that many points.

Wrathiel
10-03-2009, 07:19
Dragon>balrog

while balrog has higher str and fight, the dragon is better in every other way.

flies
flying monster (charge bonus like cav)
shooting attack
not a spirit (lots of spiritbane and special rules against spirits, I havent seen any "dragonbane" type rules yet)
moves farther
higher def
and 25 points less

lotrchampion
10-03-2009, 09:50
Lower FV, lower Strength, less attacks. Yes, the Balrog is slower, but if you're desperate to have something running around at that speed, stick a Wraith in the force and use Wings of Darkness on the ol' Rog to get him jetting about. If I were to take a Dragon, I would probably not bother with the Magic upgrade and take a Wraith instead.

The shooting attack of the Dragon isn't fantastic. Admittedly, its more than the Balrog gets, but I would far rather have lots of high strength CC attacks than a couple of ranged attacks. I also struggle to see how a Dragon could stand up to the likes of Gil-galad; sure, he has a slightly higher defence, but against such heroes it hardly matters, especially when they get so many more attacks for the superior FV. The Balrog is able to deal with heroes much more readily.

The Spirit type does have a lot of bane spells and abilities targetting it, but its still a challenge to even touch the Balrog, except for the particularly high level casters. In which case, they usually have a points cost to merit their abilities.

I think that the Balrog is a superior hero-killer, while against regular RnF, the Dragon does the job nicely. However, its my view that since most armies are RnF based, the majority of my army should be geared towards taking out the RnF, not heroes, and letting the Rog deal with them as well as the units. Sure, a Dragon finds it easier to flank and get into awkward positions, but that role is just as easily served by, say, Druzhag raising some Spiders in a flank. Yes, its more points for Balrog+Druzhag, but far and away more effective across the board.

Anyway, I guess I should stop diverting this thread away from the main topic of discussion, and leave my musings on Balrog vs Dragon to when I have scoured the rulebook in the comfort of my own home for the pros and cons of each type and their abilities. But you've got to admit, the Balrog is that much cooler....;-)

Joewrightgm
10-03-2009, 14:19
Watching a staff demo game, I was suitably impressed by the level of carnage a dragon with fly and tremors did;

Basically he flew into the middle of the dwarf army and rolled a 6 for the effects. EWWWWW

But I'd back up what Lotrchampion says; gobbos, shades to bring everyone down to your level.

Wrathiel
10-03-2009, 18:02
The dragon and balrog have the same number of base attacks, the dragon has 5 more than the balrog the turn it charges.

And I may be wrong, but how is the balrog better at killing heroes? He cannot be dueled, so the only way he can kill a character is to munch his unit.

DrMabutu
10-03-2009, 18:37
The Moria list is great because of the monsters. The stone giant is especially powerful. It may only be Defence 6 but it is extremely hard to kill, has 6 attacks and fight 10. And you can get two for the price of a single balrog.

SwordJon
10-03-2009, 22:05
The dragon and balrog have the same number of base attacks, the dragon has 5 more than the balrog the turn it charges.

And I may be wrong, but how is the balrog better at killing heroes? He cannot be dueled, so the only way he can kill a character is to munch his unit.

Why would it get more attacks? Monsters and flying monsters get the same number of bonus attacks against cav and infantry when they charge (the only difference is how they charge), and the balrog will get more bonus dice with his higher F value. The dragons main advantage is mobility while the balrog will do better as a substitute for a large infantry formation with a spell caster in it. It all depends on the rest of your army, and I don't know if I would take either one in an army that was less than 2k.

thorgrim
11-03-2009, 00:17
Gobbos Sir. Thousands of 'em.

A shade will always be a safe investment, Wargs for added punch on the charge and a few more trolls would give you a strong force.

lotrchampion
11-03-2009, 00:51
The Balrog can be dueled-its a Hero. It sits there at FV10 urinating on nearly everything. Not forgetting it causes Terror, so if the opposing unit happens to hae failed it's Terror test when you charge, you have a potential 15 roll son the Dueling table, which will decimate a hero and their formation. And as has been said, the Rog will pretty much always get more attacks, except vs other FV10 things, in which case the Balrog doesn't yield any extra attacks.

Actually had an amusing Duel moment in my game today....my opponent managed to reduce my Wood Elves to below 50% of final company, but then remembered he had to roll for the effect of the Hasharin in his company. It ended up challenging gandalf, and since it was at FV0 from magic, it proceeded to be royally carved up along with a fair few of it's regiment-a fitting way for Gandalf to go! :)

Wrathiel
11-03-2009, 06:04
you are right, i looked at the book today, you can duel anything with might.

the dragon gets six extra dice on the charge, just like cavalry. Flying monsters are another class of unit, including stuff like bats and eagles.

SwordJon
11-03-2009, 18:27
I'm pretty sure Monsters and Flying Monsters get the same amount of extra dice on the charge, but flying monsters can go further and ignore obstacles.

Tae
11-03-2009, 18:41
I'm pretty sure Monsters and Flying Monsters get the same amount of extra dice on the charge, but flying monsters can go further and ignore obstacles.

Nope.

Infantry and monsters get +1 attack on the charge.

Cav. and Flying monsters get +6 attacks against Infantry and +2 attacks against other Cav or Monsters.

Ruedeus
20-03-2009, 17:23
I've had a half dozen games with my misty mountains list and nobodies been able to touch me. My Stone giant takes the opponents focus while my large unit of wargs led by beast caller runs up the side calling up spiders/wargs distressing the enemy, while my spider queen (best monster in the list, on the double to the flanks of the enemy then with S7 killing on 3s mostly but +1 for being a prowler so on 2's now and re-rolling 1 because of poison,lush), cave troll and spiders destroy the other flank. A couple of supporting warg formations led by chieftains (a must for cavalry, on the double for getting too and away from the opponent and heroic charge ability) and Im laughing. No infantry in my army as my monsters are more likely to die if they lose combat, which they would as their goblins! a dragon and more spiders are the next step...

SwordJon
20-03-2009, 21:56
Nope.

Infantry and monsters get +1 attack on the charge.

Cav. and Flying monsters get +6 attacks against Infantry and +2 attacks against other Cav or Monsters.

Yeah, true enough. I misremembered that. I finally got to play 1,000 point game of my Mordor vs some Elves though - was a pretty brutal affair (stupid Galadhrim) but my Dark Marshal got a Black Dart off on Galadriel after she spent all of her might and killed her. Then I wing of Darkness'd my one remaining Morannon company away and hid from the Wood Elves for the last two turns while the Galadhrim finished of the Mordor Orcs.

Reinholt
21-03-2009, 18:47
My commentary:

1 - Make sure you have something to counter enemy cavalry. That is going to be the achilles heel of most Misty Mountains lists; their own cavalry is decent but lightweight (wargs, spiders), and truly heavy hitters are going to barrel in on goblins and blow them apart.

To that end, bat swarms, your own light cavalry to harass the enemy, and things like trolls to counter-charge would all be useful. Just make sure you don't take ONLY large blocks of goblins, or one long-range charge across the board could ruin you.

2 - Shades are good, but don't expect them to live long. They just aren't tough. You should either take more than one or don't expect it to do much beyond a turn or two, as anyone with half a brain is going to shoot it, magic it, or run it down. It's a high priority target.

3 - I agree you don't need a Balrog or a Dragon to be competitive. To a point, if your opponent has the right things in their list, there are lists that are more competitive without them. It's an "all the eggs in one basket" move. Trolls are good value for the points in the list, and Stone Giants are evil as well.

4 - To deal with heavy infantry, you might want to ally in a unit or two from Angmar, if they are giving you problems...

PinkFellSquig
23-03-2009, 11:09
Since I don't have a frame of reference for some things in LoME (I don't own the book!), could someone please fill me in on both Cave Drakes and Stone Giants?

Rules-wise???

Also, what's the source? "Farmer Giles of Hamm" had a giant, as I can recall (or was that "Smith of Wooton Major" ...?) but none in LotR, while apart from Winged Beasts and Dragons-proper, Tolkein described great Worms. Would Cave Drakes be of the Worm archetype?

~J~

Spider-pope
23-03-2009, 11:29
IIRC there were sort of references to Stone Giants when the Fellowship was crossing over carandhras. Something like the rocks falling around them seemed to be aimed at them.

PinkFellSquig
23-03-2009, 17:20
Wow, if that's the case, the movie version really super-imposed itself on my recall of the book itself. Also, it would seem odd that they would be left out of the Tolkein bestiary. Then again, the Watcher was almost dismissed as a feeling of paranoia until it started grabbing a the Ring, so maybe some "giant" mountain-dwelling monsters were sensing the ring as well. I would have guessed Snow Trolls, though, as those are canon to ME. As of yet we've seen Stone Trolls (turned to stone), Cave Trolls, and Olog Hai, but certainly no Snow Trolls in the movie or seen in the narrative of the book for much of any mention.

I'm gonna check this when I get home...
~J~

PinkFellSquig
28-03-2009, 02:30
OK apparently they're mentioned briefly in the Hobbit, but I didn't find them in Fellowship at first glance... maybe I'll check again later.

It didn't seem from the quote I found that they were necessarily EVIL creatures. I guess, being creatures of little importance to the overall story, like so many of the wolf-demon corrupt spirit types, and Morgoth's other chitinous beasties with too many legs to mention, the Stone Giant was up for grabs evil/good-wise.

~J~

doombanner
28-03-2009, 03:44
The Balrog is better than the Dragon, as it causes terror, and has synergy with the goblins.

Plus it's thematic, which is always good. :D

~Doom Banner

takaetun
29-03-2009, 11:01
*twitch*

You need gobbos. Many, many more gobbos. Unless that "16 Goblins w/ Spears" is 16 companies, you'll be in big doodoo very fast. At C2 and D3(5) at best I believe for normal goblins, arrow fire will just tear you apart. You'll easily lose a formation a turn.

Captains and Shamans are bought upgrades to your companies, you don't buy them seperately, and their equipment doesn't matter - similarly, Spears are just Hand Weapons in WotR.

Trolls are absolutely brutal. We had a huge preview game yesterday, and on one flank four of the little sods walked through Balin, Dain, Elrond and their accompanying units of Elves and Dwarves. Best moment of the game was one of them lucking out and lobbing a rock at an Ent the turn it appeared, down in one shot.

I'd try to get to about five plus companies per formation - you truly need the numbers, and with your mob rule, you get +2 attacks from the supporting units rather than +1 as most formations do.

Monsters wise, we used the Balrog in the preview game as well, and it was stuck behind my hordes of Haradrim for most of the game. The only time it really did anything was when Celeborn amnushed from a forest, who he promptly violated. The lack of fly is a real drawback, especially compared to the Dragon, who will badly, badly mess anything it gets near up.

My two cents. :)

PinkFellSquig
01-04-2009, 02:58
OK, so I will get more gobbos!

I currently have enough to make up 2 full bases each of hw & shield, spears, and bows, if you also include a captain for every 2, 2 shamans, and durburz. I'm assuming I'll need about twice as many bases of goblins just to start. With only two trolls, I'm assuming I'll need at least 2 more. Then there's bats... I could probably use a base of those. Then at least a whole 3-base squadron of Wargs, if not double that.

For traditionally small units such as Shades/Wights, Prowlers, Drums, etc... how the heck do you base these? Do they make up formations as normal? 8 prowlers ranked up seems to destroy their purpose! And so many wights or shades could be prohibitively expensive. Do drums stay on their own base, or join a formation of infantry?

SOOOOO CONFUUUUUUUSED!!!

darkstar
01-04-2009, 07:35
Prowlers and wights make up formations as usual, and drums are command upgrades for regular gobbos. It'll take up space of 3 goblins, so that's kind of cool.

Tae
01-04-2009, 10:28
Shades are deployed individually, as their formation states as much.

Also, if you're playing goblins it will be well worth looking at shades. I plan on running a goblin/monster list so was planning on doing the following.

Lining up goblin formations either 3 x 3 or 3 x 2, with shades slightly behind them. The shades should be about 10" from the front rank of the goblins. This is because shades reduce everyone within 12"'s fight value to 2, which obviously doesn't matter that much for goblins but will screw things like Knights.

I'll also have swarms of bats lining up right behind the goblins so they can fly behind/to the side of any force lining up a charge on my goblins.

Nilhouse
02-04-2009, 17:21
I agree with what the others have said, that you need more goblins. Lots more!

Just to throw my hat in the ring, I prefer the Dragon over the Balrog. It shreds RnF like nothing else, and it's ranged attack is pretty sick. 9 (if I remember right) strength 10/9 to hit rolls will kill most anything without allowing them a chance to hit back.

PinkFellSquig
03-04-2009, 16:49
Balrog

Durbūrz
15 Goblins w/ Bow

Druzhag / Shaman
15 Goblins

Shaman
15 Goblins

Captain w/ Bow
15 Goblins w/ Bow

Captain w/ Shield
15 Goblins

Captain w/ Shield
15 Goblins

2 Trolls

2 Trolls

2 Bat Swarms

2 Bat Swarms

plus... Giant Spiders? Wargs? Spider Swarms/Queen? Wraiths? Wights? Shades?

Is this sounding more rational for a WotR list???
~J~

Spider-pope
03-04-2009, 16:57
You could do with consolidating some of those goblin units together. As it is they will be wiped out fairly quickly as soon as they get into combat. Id aim at having at least 4 companies per formation and then invest the points you have saved from the lost captains/shamans into a few wargs. The Balrog will prod buttock, but dont rely on it to win the game for you. As soon as you do that you know the dice gods will punish you and it'll die within 2 turns.

PinkFellSquig
07-04-2009, 06:20
I think I'm getting a better handle on how the game builds armies now... especially with regard to how heroes and drums are purchased!

Goblin Formation
3 companies w/ shields
Captain w/ shield
Shaman
Drum

Goblin Formation
3 companies w/ bows
Captain w/ bow
Drum

Goblin Formation
3 companies w/ shields
Captain w/ shield
Druzhag
Drum

Cave Troll formation
2 companies

Prowler formation
3 companies
Drum
Shaman

Warg Formation
3 companies

Warg Formation
3 companies

Warg Formation
3 companies

Bat formation
3 companies

Gundaband Blackshield formation
3 companies
Durburz
Shaman
Drum

Dragon
Winged, Wyrmtongue

Balrog of Morgoth

takaetun
07-04-2009, 11:53
Cave trolls don't come in formations, they're single models, as monsters.

Guess what I'm about to say about your formations? Thats right, you need more goblins :P Gundabad Blackshields are awesome, but three companies is nothing. You should probably aim for around six companies - Moria is perhaps the most expensive money wise of all the evil armies for this reason, they truly are a horde.

Also, you will lose many friends for including both a Dragon and Balrog.

PinkFellSquig
08-04-2009, 06:36
Now I finally have the WotR book, so here we go!

+++++

---Misty Mountains, 3k Roster---

Epic heroes:

Durburz (70)

Druzhag (100)

Common formations:

6 Moria Goblin Warbands w/ Shields, Captain, Drum, Shaman (345)

6 Moria Goblin Warbands w/ Bows, Captain, Drum, Shaman (345)

6 Warg Packs w/ Warg Chieftain (170)

6 Warg Packs w/ Warg Chieftain (170)

6 Clouds of Bats (210)

3 Moria Prowler Warbands w/ Captain, Drum (110)

3 Moria Prowler Warbands w/ Captain, Drum (110)

Rare Formations:

Spider Queen (145)

Spider Queen (145)

Cave Troll (75)

Cave Troll (75)

Cave Troll (75)

6 Gundaband Blackshield Companies w/ Captain, Drum, Shaman (345)

The Balrog of Morgoth (500)

+++++

That should give me a total of around 2990 points, if I'm not mistaken.

My 5 formations of goblins line up, P, G, B, G, P, with my big blocks acting as a main anvil, Durburz hopping cowardly as he is from formation to formation, and the Prowlers (and perhaps my leader) making a nasty counter-charge. Trolls set up along this line to form the joints and demolish all cavalry and character threats, bar a few really nasty ones.

The Balrog sets up on a flank ready to move freely to the best possible target, and distracting my opponent from softer and more strategic targets. For instance, Druzhag will be deploying in my bat swarm (as that is cavalry), taking advantage of their mobility, Terror, Fight, Strength, and Courage values, making nasty flying monster charges, providing his leadership to the bats and nearby Wargs and heavy-hitting Spider Queens, while raising further outflanking swarms of Spider Broodlings to rear-charge the enemy.

This is truly an army of two halves, being led by the two Epic Heroes in the best possible arena for each. I have neglected to include four choices due to poor, expensive, or absent models (Giant Spiders, Stone Giants, Cave Drakes, and Dragons of the Ancient World). I hate the Giant Spider models, but I was intrigued by their ability to hop over any terrain, their superior strength, and poison. Still, I went with Wargs for sheer cheapness. Druzhag will cover mobility, and they'll flank when they get the chance. I skipped out on the Stone Giant and Cave Drake, as I've heard virtually nothing about their performance in the game, and I am a big sucker for awesome-looking models - no model, no business! Lastly, I skipped out on the Dragon because of the price of said model, the fact that I already have a Balrog (I still want friends after my games with them!), and I don't know where it would fit in my strategy at the moment.

Please leave any critique or comments on this list as you get around to reading it!
Thanks,
~J~

Nu Fenix
08-04-2009, 14:04
A handy trick for Giant Spiders - Goblin Spider Riders from Battle for Skull Pass, as without the goblin rider, and having the legs shortened slightly, they work really well. Plus, alot of people have them and don't want too many in their army, so may be easy to get hold of.

It is a shame that there aren't more Epic Heroes for you to use, when compared to some of the other armies.

Red Corsairs
08-04-2009, 14:09
I agree you could do with lots more gobbos themselves in my opinion and more trolls would be useful. Druzhag is incredibly useful and in my opinion should be used in all Goblin armies from now on. A Balrog is good and incredibly tough though with what you'd have after that not a must.

Good luck and good Gaming.

PinkFellSquig
10-04-2009, 08:33
So I played my very first game of WotR today, 1500 points!

+++++

The Misty Mountains:

6 Companies of Goblins w/ Shields + Captain/Drum/Shaman & Durburz

2 Companies of Goblins w/ Bows + Captain/Drum

3 Companies of Prowlers + Captain/Drum

3 Companies of Prowlers + Captain/Drum

Cave Troll

Cave Troll

The Balrog of Morgoth

Allied Contingent: Angmar

3 Companies of Spectral Host

Court of the Dead Kings

+++++

My opponent plays Easterlings, Khand, and Mahud... approximately:

Winged Khamul

2 Khand Chariots

Amdur + 3 Companies of Easterlings

between 4 and 6 companies of Kataphracts

4 Companies of Haradrim Horsemen w/ Suladan

2 Companies of Easterling Bowmen

+++++

Short version of the story...

His chariots smash on my fast-advancing prowlers, who kill one and soon overtake the other. Kataphrakts are burned by a firebolt (a 6!) from my shaman, and smash on the Prowlers, falling back only to be killed by my left-most troll and Prowlers in a nasty flanking operation. The center line of goblins is swooped by Khamul, and the Balrog is way out in left field so doesn't get to have a go at it. Fearing a rear-charge, Durburz's unit pulls an about face, and the shaman lets loose with another firebolt (6 again!), and completely destroys him!!! No 5+ save, no redirect! The bowmen are largely ineffective, only finishing off one of the companies of my big goblin horde that Khamul started. They're soon overcome by the Prowlers and the left-flanking Troll.

From the right flank back to center... Suladan & company meet with Amdur's host to completely trounce my Spectral Host (Amdur just keeps wailing away with his rampage, grar!). The Mumak tramples over my Kings and right-flank troll TWICE, and into my bowmen once. My bowmen are largely ineffectual at doing anything worthwhile, but make a juicy target for the Mumak to charge and get trapped out in no-man's land. In the meantime, my Dead Kings took a couple wounds off the Mumak and generally held their own, and the Troll did NOTHING but tickle it. Finally, my Balrog decides to make a U-turn and get into the battle (by TURN FOUR), throwing tons of magic at the Mumak and Amdur's quickly approaching unit. Amdur's unit smashes into my re-faced big gobbo unit... I blow a might point on Epic Strike, and barely lose combat due to the Rampage... Despite this, the good news is Suladan's unit also charged in, had to call a challenge on Durburz, but with his Epic Strike going, I trounced him so hard that his unit was destroyed! After the minor loss, my Dead Kings charged in with the Goblins when I got priority the next turn and pulled off another minor loss while destroying more of Amdur's unit. The Mumak riders shot my right-flank Troll to death, but the Balrog charged it and destroyed all but one rider, and got it down to one wound!!! Everyone pissed themselves in the general area because at that point, with only one crewman, the stampede could not be restrained - luckily I spread out enough that NO ONE got run over. The remaining three companies of Durburz's goblins smashed into Amdur's 2 remaining companies, and the Balrog took the flank. Balrog goes first and destroys the whole unit (I rolled a 6 on the charge, and got a 6 on Dark Fury... I'm pretty sure he had at least 13 attacks as a result!).

End result... everything is dead but one wound and one crewman on the Mumak!!!

Yay for my first game!!!
~J~

Nu Fenix
10-04-2009, 20:34
Congratulations on your success, although since I'm a Fallen Realm player, it is a shame to see them lose ;)

Is there anything you wish you would have done differently, or units you wish you had /hadn't taken?

PinkFellSquig
12-04-2009, 02:48
Spectral Host was miserable, but then again, they were 3co in #, fighting against 3co of East+Amdur, and 4co of Harad Raiders+Suladan. Kinda lopsided!!!

Balrog was misplaced on my left flank. Took forever to get over by Oliphaunt & Amdur to crush both, but did the job.

Fallen Kings & Shield Gobbos X9 w/ Capt, Shaman, Drum, & Durburz held the center MARVELOUSLY WELL in the meantime!

~J~

PinkFellSquig
12-04-2009, 02:51
Typo: Gobbos X6!
~J~