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Thoughtless
10-03-2009, 15:20
Are Cold one riders being neglected because you can choose a stegadon for a similar price?

I have around 16 CoR and plan to use a unit in my standard 2k list. Both units provide a powerful hammer asset to the list, but is the steg just too good to pass up?

Malorian
10-03-2009, 16:08
I plan to take two units of 7 CoR un 2K. Stegs are nice but they are warmachine magnets and can't take on blocks on their own (although it will tie them up nicely).

Plus the CoR are faster and can take magic banners.

Braad
10-03-2009, 16:12
Personally I think I find the stegadon less scary then the cold one riders.
While the steg has more toughness, the cold ones tend to get combat resolution from outnumbering, the banner, and my opponent also often equips them with a warbanner. Add to that quite a lot of attacks, and I think its a scary unit.

Bac5665
10-03-2009, 16:25
Actually, neither is very good, but the steg is better.

CoR:
Compare them with other heavy cav, Cold-One Knights, Bret KotR in Lance, Dragon Princes, Chaos Kights; Point for point, all of them are better. CoKs are 8 points fewer for 1 less attack and no cold-blooded, but lave lances, instead of spears, and both hatred and better WS. These are the worst of the comparable Cav.

Dragon Princes are 5 points less, don't have stupidity, have access to much better magic items, are faster, immune to fire, lances and better WS but are S3 base and don't have cold blooded. GW, at least, thinks lances are 5 points better than +1S, so that means that DP should be 5 points MORE than CoR. Given all of DPs many other advantages over CoR, its not a remotely fair comparison. CoR are terrible compared to DPs.

Chaos Knights are better in every way except cold-blooded. No stupidity, better stats, +1S all the time, not just on the charge, faster, better armor save, access to marks, all for the same cost as CoRs. Again, its ridiculous. CoR are so overpriced it hurts. Sure, they can be effective, but at a very high cost.

Stegs are little better, but they are better. For 60 points more than a Hydra, I get something that hits a little better on the charge, but worse every other time, and is no harder to wound (the Hydra is actually harder to wound for high S things...). Also, the Hydra has better handlers, and ranged weapon, though the Skinks are harder to kill. But the Steg is stubborn, and with cold-blooded, that's a big deal. It also has twice the US. And there is the perfectly valid argument that the Hydra is crazy undercosted, so the Steg may be fairly costed at 235.

But it just isn't killy enough to help alot these days. These days, Warhammer is all about killing power. Winning combat by 1 does nothing. You need to win combat by 5. Or more. That requires crazy killing power, and with just 4 WS3 S5 attacks, the steg doesn't cut it. Saurus, for about the same cost, hit so much harder it's not funny, and these days, that wins games more than everything else.

Sure, the steg is useful. Holding up enemy units is a big deal. But it may well be overcosted, and it's general role in Warhammer has gotten less useful since last edition, where, at the same cost, and with better AS for its crew, it was considered a poor choice. Being moved to the special section doesn't change that.

If you have to take either one, take the steg, but don't expect too much from it. It just can't give that much anymore.

Kerill
10-03-2009, 16:29
I'm going for cold one riders too, the long charge range (useful both offensively and defensively to ward off cavalry charges from your opponent), hard hitting nature and 3D6 pursuit rolls being key.

Stegs as noted can go down to war machines quickly if you are unlucky.

Malorian
10-03-2009, 16:39
One of the things I'd like to try some time is taking a few stegs and a slann with lore of life so I can heal them as I go :D

mithrandir
10-03-2009, 16:40
Steggies are very attractive right now, especially with multiple 'engine of the gods' upgrades...Tourney and Power Gamers luv'em 'cause they are capable of neutralizing the DoC & VC player compositions.

Dokushin
10-03-2009, 16:44
COR are a little overpriced, sure... but it's M7 in our cold-blooded T4 army, and they aren't bad by any means... they're still devastating on the charge, and are in the top group of cavalry in terms of performance when they get stuck in a fight past the first turn or charged -- you're still looking at 3 S4 attacks per 2+ AS model, with 2 fear-causing unit strength. If you compare them to other stuff then they can on occasion look stupid, but LM aren't a cavalry army, and this makes them a big deal: they and terradons are all we have above M6, and the terradons aren't going to break anything anytime soon.

If comparing them to other armies depresses you, compare a Slaan Mage-Priest or Saurus Warriors (or even Skink Skirmishers, really) and see how dumb LM makes other armies look -- it's about specialties.

My only real issue with COC is stupidity, and it's not really that big a deal. (I failed 4 in a row one game -- that's a one in ten thousand chance -- but c'est la vie.) If you can get the charge with them they're plenty devastating, and if your target doesn't break they're actually really good in a fight without the charge.

Now, as for the Stegadon, I hate to just flat-out disagree, but it's one of the best infantry breakers in the game -- hit something in a flank with a Stegadon, and the impact hits are going to get you combat res and make sure nothing can attack back, and then the crew+steg+chief (you brought a chief on it, right?) will get to rack up a few more wounds. Then you're looking at 5-6 CR vs. their maybe 1 -- they won't get ranks, they can't use their standard, they can't get attacks back, so at best they outnumber, and if you dropped them below US10 they not only don't outnumber but they autobreak. Upgrading to an ancient for S6 makes this better. Putting a Skink Chief BSB on it makes it better than that + better at holding if charged, and if you don't want the Lance you can take that +d6 pursuit banner for some cavalry-style rundowns. ('course you could have had cavalry that pursues 4d6... man, I'm going to write up a tactica just on these two units...)

The Stegadon War-Spear you can give the chief makes this ridiculous, btw -- boosting to 2d6+1 impact hits means you're as close to guaranteed to breaking the unit as you can get, and stand a decent chance of just wiping them out.

Also, don't forget a primary advantage of the Stegadons -- the howdah weapons. As per GW you can use the Skink Chief's BS5 for them, giving you a poisoned bolt thrower or 4d6 blowpipe shots that hit on 2s. These also help negate a big weakness of the steg, in that it's weak in combat -- also from GW, these are not warmachines and hence can be used in a stand and shoot reaction, and those 4d6 shots or that poisoned bolt thrower will really help you weather the combat that's about to ensue, in addition to being Ld6 (or Ld7) stubborn and either T6 or a 2+ save.

In short, COC are decent enough cavalry, especially for LM, and even if they get stuck in a fight they've got plenty of killing power, but you get stupidity. Stegs are amazing on the charge, although it's a little harder to get it off, but they cause terror and have neat guns, and can tarpit well enough to hold something while you get something else to support -- perhaps cavalry or more stegs! I'd probably go two of one or two of the other before I mixed, but they're both more than viable, and will send plenty of units off the board or into the ground.

[Man, I wrote a lot on that, sorry! lol]

Kerill
10-03-2009, 17:08
There has been an FAQ allowing the chief to use Howdah weapons? Never heard about it and I would be surprised if they rules it that way.

Malorian
10-03-2009, 17:22
There has been no FAQ as far as I know (and if there was one you could bet there would be 10 threads on it).

He has probably just talked to a red shirt.

BigbyWolf
10-03-2009, 17:49
Cold one riders over a stegadon...sprinkle with skinks and some cheese, and bake in a hot oven for 45 minutes...et voila! Lizagnia!

Sorry :p

Bac5665
10-03-2009, 18:16
@Dokushin

I don't disagree about CoR. They are ok, and hit hard enough, but its simply depressing to see how crazy overpriced they are.

But you make my point about stegies for me. You agree that stegs must have a character on top to be useful. That changes things considerable, as you are obviously aware. I understood the question to be about effective special choices, and no steggie special choice has a character on top. The basic steg is underwhelming.

Also, of course a flank charge will be devastating to infantry. Beyond goblins/gnoblars, I fully expect any unit to be powerful on a flank charge. If it can't do that, it had better be fast cav or an equivalent. Saying that a 235 point stegadon (with a character on top) will do well on a flank charge is like saying that a blood thirster can kill a wizard in a challange; it had darn well better be able to do that; otherwise it would be completely useless.

N810
10-03-2009, 18:24
Bac5665 are you looking at the 7th edition cold one stats ?
because they got a bit tougher than they used to be in 6th.
also having a mounted scar vet or old one in the unit helps out a lot.

Bac5665
10-03-2009, 18:28
@N810, yes I am. Notice I did not claim that everything had a better save than them, only chaos Knights do, now, of the things I listed.

People need to stop throwing characters into units and saying "there, that fixes everything!!" When comparing units, it doesn't matter what characters that can be added. Elves, Chaos and Brets can all add a combat hero to the unit of cav, and all of those will make a big difference. It has no bearing on the relative power of the unit itself, though it may have some bearing on the power of the list overall.

SevenSins
10-03-2009, 18:33
In my opinion the main reason for taking a steg over cold one cav is looks, those cold ones are hideous.
As much fun as they can be I wouldn't load out on either.
ancient steg+chief with warspear
priest with EoTG
or 5-6 CoC with some command

skirmishers and spear saurus being higher on my list at least

Malorian
10-03-2009, 18:38
In my opinion the main reason for taking a steg over cold one cav is looks, those cold ones are hideous.
As much fun as they can be I wouldn't load out on either.
ancient steg+chief with warspear
priest with EoTG
or 5-6 CoC with some command

skirmishers and spear saurus being higher on my list at least

WHAT?!? I hate the cold one hands but other than that they are a great model if you ask me.

Wouldn't bother with command on the CoC. Banner is nice but too expensive and makes the unit a liability, the champ is useless, and with coldblooded the musician is kinda pointless too. Just take a unit of 6-7 and chew through blocks like crazy :)

Kerill
10-03-2009, 18:45
Stegadons don't need a character necessarily but if you are taking a skink priest anyway the EOTG looks pretty obvious. Stegadons have had a substantial boost since last edition- Ld6 stubborn is a lot better than Ld5 stubborn, I think people fail to appreciate how good this is. A stegadon is good because of its flexibility, not becase it is better at any single thing than choice X.

I have cold one knights in my list since I think a balanced army with a decent variety of units is the best way to form an all-comers list with lizardmen and it's slightly cheaper than a stegadon.

Also saurus cavalry are not particularly overcosted IMO, chaos knights are undercosted I would say. And I'd rather have saurus cavalry than dragon princes generally, the only place where DPs really shine in comparison is when they take the banner of ellyrion or have the bsb with battle banner. If a unit of 7 saurus cav gets the charge on 7 DPs the DPs will autobreak. If the DPs get the charge the saurus will lose by 2/3 and may well hold and will have a good chance of eventually winning the combat.

innerwolf
10-03-2009, 18:48
they can't use their standard,

Why? Where did you got the weird idea you can't use your banner when flank-charged?



Also, don't forget a primary advantage of the Stegadons -- the howdah weapons. As per GW you can use the Skink Chief's BS5 for them, giving you a poisoned bolt thrower or 4d6 blowpipe shots that hit on 2s.



No offical statement on that. What a Redshirt told you about that is not more valid than the opinion from people on this forum.

Dokushin
10-03-2009, 18:56
Re: Chief BS for Howdah Weapons and Stand and Shoot -- of course there hasn't been a FAQ yet, nor did I take wisdom from redshirts, lol. I and several others have e-mailed the appointed rules guru at askyourquestion at gw dot com, and gotten the same response. That's as official as it's going to get for now. The Stand and Shoot doesn't even need clarification, really, but confirmation is nice.

Re: Stegadons charging units -- sure, anything in the side is good, but Stegadons get around all the ASF going around with impact hits, are T6 and crewed by 2+ save to minimize return wounds, are unit strength 10 on a model that has monster movement (free pivoting is huge for flanks), and cram 9 attacks (11 with a chief) into a very narrow frontage.

Even without the chief, they're great at what they do -- you just have to be a little more careful with them and don't get the mileage you would out of the howdah weapons.

And the bloody thing isn't as vulnerable to warmachines as everyone acts like -- randomization means it gets a 5+ ward vs. cannons and ballistics, toughness six is a help against bolt throwers, five wounds means even a greatcannon has to roll well to hit it, and the large base prevents templates from autohitting. Sure, two or three warmachines will kill one in a couple of turns, but you've shut down the machines for either your other stegadon or for the rest of your force to get in their endzone.

A Stegadon is a threat that has to be answered, and it's not often answered easily. Taking two and a Slann in temple guard, or with some cavalry and an Oldblood on Carnie, will have your opponent scrambling to try to keep up with threats, and that's before you consider your infantry or fliers.

But to get back to the original question, I love both *grin*. If I had to trash all I owned of one or the other I'd keep my two stegs, lol, but sometimes that 14" charge just can't be beat when it's out in front of the kind of core infantry we bring. COC are probably one of my favorite units in the army. Except when I roll 6-5-6 at the beginning of my turn, lol.

Kerill
10-03-2009, 19:00
WHAT?!? I hate the cold one hands but other than that they are a great model if you ask me.

Wouldn't bother with command on the CoC. Banner is nice but too expensive and makes the unit a liability, the champ is useless, and with coldblooded the musician is kinda pointless too. Just take a unit of 6-7 and chew through blocks like crazy :)

I found them a bugger to stick together though :) I mostly agree on the no command at 6 models but if you go 7 or more I can see the potential of the command, particularly standard and warbanner for autobreaking potential or huanchi. 7 is enough to autobreak most knight units if you win and may well kill enough on a slightly degraded infantry unit (around 20 in the unit) to autobreak it as well (De spears, Empire swordsmen, orcs etc.).

I don't think there are any right or wrong answers to the question of whether to take a steg/cavalry/kroxigors, just the issue of what you want the unit to do in your army.

sroblin
10-03-2009, 22:46
@Dokushin

I don't disagree about CoR. They are ok, and hit hard enough, but its simply depressing to see how crazy overpriced they are.


I've always had a tough time understanding this point of view. Sauruses were hard-hitting multiple-attack cavalry before they were common, yet they still have detractors even now that their armor save is the same as all other armies.

With your comparison to Dragon Princes and Cold One Knights:
they are toughness 4!
coldblooded LD8 is better than LD9.
they hit with 2x S4 attacks when charged or on the second round of battle, compared to S3 (and only one-attack with the DE CoK.)

The advantages of the DPs?
Weapons skill is the biggest I'd say.
Movement +1/2 inches
ASF S3 attacks? Not normally very helpful, but every now and then...
Better magic items? I think we're getting tangential now.
Immunity to fire. A bit of an oddity; nobody thought it was big deal in 6th edition.
No stupid.
Stupidity is a pain (I've played DE for a while), but with the cold-blooded rule the chance of failure isn't very big. Still unpleasant when it rears its head.

Cold One Knights are in all tougher than Dragon Princes and much better at protracted/defensive combat; perhaps they are not exacty 5 points better, but I would submit they are still a more powerful unit (and I don't buy this 5 points for lances argument; they are both S5 on the charge, and that's what matters.

Bac5665
10-03-2009, 23:02
I did forget the T4, and that's definitely my bad. Your right that the WS is a big deal, but the Movement is the biggest deal, and the stupidity is almost as big. I think those three things are a bigger deal than T4 and cold-blooded. Your correct that the saurus hit harder after the charge, and as anyone reading my lizardmen related comments knows, I value that ability very highly. But ASF, better magic items and immunity to fire (which is a bigger deal now than in 6E) close that gap so that it's less than 5 PPM. I think that, at best, DP are equal to CoR in power, if not better; they certainly shouldn't be 5 points less.

theunwantedbeing
10-03-2009, 23:18
Cold one Riders are mv7.
Mv7 is fantastically useful mostly as you persue 3D6", making it much easier to run anything down.

Compared to dragon princes?
Better toughness, cause fear, better leadership (ld8 cold blooded beats ld9), more able to fight when not charging.
They lose out on speed and immunity to fire basically.

Cold One Rider's are incredibly worth having simply as they have movement 7.
Almost nothing else in the army get's that.

The extra cost is more due to how especially useful they are within the lizardman army, compared to how the dragon prince movement rate isnt overly spectacular compared to a lot of other things in the army.

Cold One Riders certainly arent overpriced at all.

PurchasedPig
10-03-2009, 23:51
Why? Where did you got the weird idea you can't use your banner when flank-charged?

This is actually a correct assumption - a standard/battle standard can only be used if it is in the fighting rank of a combat. If flanked such a standard will not be in the fighting rank unless it is on the correct corner of the unit.

This is, admittedly, a little known rule but quite handy to know :)

- PurchasedPig -

PurchasedPig
10-03-2009, 23:55
And, incidentally, I use Cold One Riders but that is partially becuase I already had them from the Battalion Box sets from previous editions... I do find them extremely useful (I generally stick a Scar-Vet in them with the Shield Of The Mirrored Pool for a bit of fun :)) and prefer them to Stegs simply for Movement purposes. I do have one Stegadon and have found it to attract a lot of fire which, although useful for the rest of the army, does not make it an incredibly powerful unit for me...

- PurchasedPig -

Thoughtless
11-03-2009, 02:01
I thought of having six naked CoC as a solid flank unit.
No command, yet enough attacks to make almost every other flank unit think twice.

Spirit
11-03-2009, 02:31
This is actually a correct assumption - a standard/battle standard can only be used if it is in the fighting rank of a combat. If flanked such a standard will not be in the fighting rank unless it is on the correct corner of the unit.

This is, admittedly, a little known rule but quite handy to know :)

- PurchasedPig -

I cant seem to find this rule, which page is it on?

PurchasedPig
11-03-2009, 12:30
I cant seem to find this rule, which page is it on?

I'm afraid I do not have the book on me at the moment (wrong city...) however I believe that it is described under the rules for standards with command models. It's quite subtle as well I seem to remember. Something like 'If a standard is in a fighting rank then he gives +1 Combat Res'.

Incidentally this is the only drawback to Slaan Battle Standard Bearers - they do not give +1 Combat Res for having Battle Standard unless they are in the front rank.

- Purchased Pig -

Dead Man Walking
11-03-2009, 16:12
Re: Chief BS for Howdah Weapons and Stand and Shoot -- of course there hasn't been a FAQ yet, nor did I take wisdom from redshirts, lol. I and several others have e-mailed the appointed rules guru at askyourquestion at gw dot com, and gotten the same response. That's as official as it's going to get for now. The Stand and Shoot doesn't even need clarification, really, but confirmation is nice.

"As Official as it gets" is NOT OFFICIAL!!!

The characters who can lend thier bs to a weapon that is crewed say they can in thier army books. The Dwarf engineer specifically says he can use his BS, the Chief does not. If you told me that during a game I would tell you that I dont give a rats ass how many emails you sent to where, unless its faq'd so -everyone- can read it then it doesnt count. Frankly there are way too many stories of GW.com rules questions where there is a different answer to the same question every time you email them, so they are far far far from reliable. I would love it if Chiefs could do this as I am fielding a steggie army atm, but I'm not crazy enough to try and swing that past my opponents without it being officially FAQ'd.

Until it is FAQ'd a good player will err in the favor of thier opponent as its goodsportsmanship and its not your opponents fault GW has so many loopholes in thier rules. Thus my chief doesnt fire the bow and rolling a 6 to poison only kills the first guy instantly, not the whole row. :skull:

Spirit
11-03-2009, 17:06
I'm afraid I do not have the book on me at the moment (wrong city...) however I believe that it is described under the rules for standards with command models. It's quite subtle as well I seem to remember. Something like 'If a standard is in a fighting rank then he gives +1 Combat Res'.

Incidentally this is the only drawback to Slaan Battle Standard Bearers - they do not give +1 Combat Res for having Battle Standard unless they are in the front rank.

- Purchased Pig -

It seems you are wrong.

Pg 38. "If any of your units includes a standard bearer in its front rank, you may add a +1 bonus"

The battle standard has a slightly different ruling, in that as long as the character is fighting the enemy (so he could have moved to the back rank to fight) then you gain +1

With the slann, considering his rule is "you may still act as the general, army banner bearer, ect whilst in the second rank" I would say he still adds the +1 also.

innerwolf
11-03-2009, 17:20
It seems you are wrong.

Pg 38. "If any of your units includes a standard bearer in its front rank, you may add a +1 bonus"

The battle standard has a slightly different ruling, in that as long as the character is fighting the enemy (so he could have moved to the back rank to fight) then you gain +1

With the slann, considering his rule is "you may still act as the general, army banner bearer, ect whilst in the second rank" I would say he still adds the +1 also.


Thanks for clarifying it. I knew you could use banners when flanked. So it's still +2 you have to beat.

Spirit
11-03-2009, 19:30
Thanks for clarifying it. I knew you could use banners when flanked. So it's still +2 you have to beat.

Well, dont quote me on the slann, because it says the bsb mustbe fighting in some form to get the bonus, and the slann says he may "still act as the army banner bearer" so its a bit of a contradiction.

Dokushin
11-03-2009, 23:48
"As Official as it gets" is NOT OFFICIAL!!!

(...omit...)

Until it is FAQ'd a good player will err in the favor of thier opponent as its goodsportsmanship and its not your opponents fault GW has so many loopholes in thier rules. Thus my chief doesnt fire the bow and rolling a 6 to poison only kills the first guy instantly, not the whole row. :skull:

A response at an official contact address from a Games Workshop employee given the exclusive job of answering questions about Warhammer Fantasy Battles and sent with the official e-mail letterhead of the company sure the heck is official.

Several e-mails from several different people have been sent and received the same response. There is no contradiction or question. It's plain and simple fact.

What authority, btw, do you have for contradicting it? Something 'official' by your standards? No? So it's a Games Workshop employee vs. your opinion? I'm sorry if you don't like it, but Games Workshop has the privilege of making rules for their own game, which you do not. I fail to see how anyone would think it is reasonable to discount a response from Games Workshop in favor of their own interpretation.

MarcoPollo
12-03-2009, 00:06
First of all Dokushin, we here at warseer are taking your word on this subject of official. For all we know, this could be a fictitious story. I'm not saying that it is a fictitious story, but anyone saying that:

"Some watery tart came out of the lake and handed me a steel dagger does not make me the king of the Britons". -- sorry for the Python reference: (Quest for the holly grail scene--Democratic Peasents).

Until we see a Faq coming from GW in the usual fashion, many of us will not use the BS 5 rule on the stegadon. I for one will not. But then again I don't have to win every game I play either.

MarcoPollo
12-03-2009, 00:13
Back on topic.

I think one of the reasons why I believe CoR are less valuable than a stegadon is due to the nerfing of the Huanichi banner. Now it is just +d6 charge, which is significantly less potent than the banner from the last book. Before, you could manouver to the flank of a block and activate the banner in the magic phase, thus earning a flank attack from a frontal position.

Now, the stegadon givew you the impact hits and all the other goodies that you can find. Also, it is a mount (not flying), and as such can hang out in units to earn static CR. Sure it doesn't get the lookout sir rule, but atleast you can hire a cheap skink champion to take the first challenge instead of your wimpy shaman. And having the mount take up a footprint of 50mm by 100mm is pretty decent when you consider how many temple guard or saurus with spears it replaces. And having a unit be immune to terror is not a bad thing either.

Spirit
12-03-2009, 00:19
A response at an official contact address from a Games Workshop employee given the exclusive job of answering questions about Warhammer Fantasy Battles and sent with the official e-mail letterhead of the company sure the heck is official.

Several e-mails from several different people have been sent and received the same response. There is no contradiction or question. It's plain and simple fact.

What authority, btw, do you have for contradicting it? Something 'official' by your standards? No? So it's a Games Workshop employee vs. your opinion? I'm sorry if you don't like it, but Games Workshop has the privilege of making rules for their own game, which you do not. I fail to see how anyone would think it is reasonable to discount a response from Games Workshop in favor of their own interpretation.

I e-mailed them 2 hours ago, they said that you cannot use the BS of a skink chief.

Dam there goes the validity i guess.

Also, considering how often they have said something and it has been contradicted by GW I would not use them as an official source of rules.

theunwantedbeing
12-03-2009, 00:23
Stegadon in a unit of skinks...how do you solve that problem?
Whittle the skinks down to a small amount of their starting number and then let panic deal with the problem. Just don't kill all the skinks (leave 1 or 2 dependng on the starting unit size) and snigger at the enemy stegadon being incapable of rallying.

kardar233
12-03-2009, 01:12
Well, I'm fine with the Skink Chief using his ballistic skill on the Steggy's warmachines, but only if it's the Giant Blowpipes. Since the Giant Bow requires two crew to man, he shouldn't be able to lend his BS to it. The Giant Blowpipes, as they only require one Skink to man, seem fair game.

Just my thoughts of RAI.

fracas
12-03-2009, 01:33
if you take 2+ units of CoR, consider taking the Horn of Kygor as well

samwise
12-03-2009, 18:17
Well, I'm fine with the Skink Chief using his ballistic skill on the Steggy's warmachines, but only if it's the Giant Blowpipes. Since the Giant Bow requires two crew to man, he shouldn't be able to lend his BS to it. The Giant Blowpipes, as they only require one Skink to man, seem fair game.

Just my thoughts of RAI.

Dwarf Engineers lend BS to Bolthrowers right? I don't think asthetics should be the chief decider here. I have enogh trouble imagining how a weedy skink can have enough puff to use a giant blowpipe!

I'm quite fond of my knights. They fill a handy niche in the army. A stegadon hits harder (or MUCH harder depending on warspear) on a charge, but mostly tarpits thereafter, wheras the Knights hit less powerfully on a charge, albeit still better than anything else in the book, but can still tip out a pleasing amount of attacks thereafter (and v.s. the armies I play, WS4 is worth gold) plus the everpresent autobreak.

Lizardmen don't need a hammer cavalry unit, they already have an above average killing potential with lots of s4/6 attacks being fairly common, they merely need something to give some greater hitting mobility (and greater ws), which they do more than fine at.

Stupidity can be a pain, but ld 8/9 coldblooded is solid

samwise
12-03-2009, 18:20
if you take 2+ units of CoR, consider taking the Horn of Kygor as well

It costs soooooo much though! It *might* be worth it with 3 or more units, but for that price youu can have another 3 riders or (much better) around another 2 units of skinks

Malorian
12-03-2009, 18:46
It costs soooooo much though! It *might* be worth it with 3 or more units, but for that price youu can have another 3 riders or (much better) around another 2 units of skinks

Keep in mind the trick of having two scarvets on cold one each join join a unit of saurus and the oldblood with the horn in a unit in the center. Each of them are stubborn and pass it on to their unit.

A lot of people like temple guard just because they are stubborn and gladly pay the extra 5 points per model. Well as long as you are doing this to 20 saurus then you are already making up the points for the horn, and with the above set up you'd actually be doing it to about 60 of them.

Then if you are doing this then you might as well take CoC as well.

blackjack
12-03-2009, 18:50
Yes but stubborn TG don't use up the entire magic allowance of the Slann. Taking the enitre magic allowance of your Old blood really criples him.

If the Horn were a banner for the same price it would make some sense. As it is though you really have to stretch reality to justify it.

Malorian
12-03-2009, 18:54
That old blood with the horn can still have toughness 5, a 0+ save, and 5 str 5 attacks.

Hardly what I'd call crippled ;)

N810
12-03-2009, 19:24
Don't forget that terradons are flying calvery,
so it allready effects them. :)

Spirit
12-03-2009, 19:31
Stegadon in a unit of skinks...how do you solve that problem?
Whittle the skinks down to a small amount of their starting number and then let panic deal with the problem. Just don't kill all the skinks (leave 1 or 2 dependng on the starting unit size) and snigger at the enemy stegadon being incapable of rallying.

The steg is ItP, does that not mean is cannot panic?

Nurgling Chieftain
12-03-2009, 19:48
It does not confer ItP to the unit it is joined to.

Dokushin
12-03-2009, 19:59
Personally I like the Horn on a Slann more, as with Disciplines he doesn't really need his magic allowance, and that gives you the stubborn TG, 3 scarvets on cold one to make three more units of infantry stubborn, and then 4 units of cold one cavalry or terradon riders to be stubborn. That means your whole army is stubborn, rocks in CC, AND you've still got a powerful magic phase!

Dead Man Walking
12-03-2009, 22:44
Dwarf Engineers lend BS to Bolthrowers right? I don't think asthetics should be the chief decider here.

I will note once again that the dwarf engineers rules specifically state that he can use his BS when attached to a bolt thrower and the Chief does not. The people who argue for this rule are going on the concept of 'Well it only makes sense." and lots of other people have picked it up and ran with it like it was a fact.

So one character specifically says it can and the other has no mention at all as to being able to lend thier BS to the crew. Guess which character can legally use his bs on the bolt thrower? :rolleyes:

Dokushin
13-03-2009, 04:20
I will note once again that the dwarf engineers rules specifically state that he can use his BS when attached to a bolt thrower and the Chief does not. The people who argue for this rule are going on the concept of 'Well it only makes sense." and lots of other people have picked it up and ran with it like it was a fact.

So one character specifically says it can and the other has no mention at all as to being able to lend thier BS to the crew. Guess which character can legally use his bs on the bolt thrower? :rolleyes:

The Dwarf Engineers need the rule because they're attached to warmachines -- the rule overturns the part of the warmachine rules that state characters cannot use their BS. Howdah weapons are not warmachines and have no such prohibition. (Do you need a rule telling you your hero can use his BS on his magic bow?)

In short, the character that can legally use his bs on the bolt thrower is the one that GW says can, which is both of the ones in question, in fact.

Nurgling Chieftain
13-03-2009, 05:01
An in-depth review of the rules on page 55 of the lizardmen codex leads me to the following conclusions:

1) The weapons are fired by "crew"

2) The character is not "crew"

While #2 is a bit counter-intuitive, there are about six different places where the crew is clearly referred to as being a separate category from the character. With that much precedent right there on the same page, I am comfortable suggesting that the conclusion (1) above excludes characters.

Kerill
13-03-2009, 05:41
Horn on a lone wolf slann could be good- you are saving a lot of points by dropping the temple guard and with stubborn and immunity to fear spear saurus are a better unit.

Spirit
13-03-2009, 17:49
But if the slann is on his own i would need the 2+ ward vs shooting. So i wouldnt want to risk it lol.

N810
13-03-2009, 18:07
Horn on a lone wolf slann could be good- you are saving a lot of points by dropping the temple guard and with stubborn and immunity to fear spear saurus are a better unit.

A change in the new book is that the slan only goes in second row
when he's is with Temple Guard...
So with other units he's right out front like a regular character.

samwise
14-03-2009, 03:09
But if the slann is on his own i would need the 2+ ward vs shooting. So i wouldnt want to risk it lol.

Or switching to Incorporeal! Most of the shooting (Dwarf Bolt Throwers aside) that you want to avoid isn't magical. It's well smug to watch the opponents face as some gnarly ranged attacks sail right though!

I still couldn't condone a horn on a slann though. It seems a lot of faff, and a LOT of points to sink to get a couple of stubborn blocks of Saurus with all those Cavalry ridden Scar Veterans. How good exactly are 3 M4 primarilly defensive infantry units anyways? And whilst the Vets can sprint out, that defeats the entire point of Stubborn blocks...

It's not like Saurus blocks have many problems staying put with hittyness, SCR and leadership 9 Coldblooded rerollable when a Slann BSB is around!

Kerill
14-03-2009, 04:14
A change in the new book is that the slan only goes in second row
when he's is with Temple Guard...
So with other units he's right out front like a regular character.


I know but with immunity to normal weapons he's safe against most things on his own. Against dwarfs or daemons he can join a unit. Alternatively you can go for the 4+ regen power, bloodthirster aside if your opponent attacks him instead of the unit he will lose combat. Otherwise move him out of the unit.

ATM the slann doesn't really need any magic items (although mine has bane head and a couple of powerstones).

Lone wolf slann is still a possibility, as is the horn, but both need the army to be built around them.

@Samwise, they are great I agree but stubborn and immunity to fear makes them a lot better, there are units that can comfortably break spear saurus and many more if your opponent combo charges. Stubborn and immunity to fear more less prevents this. You can also take smaller units of spear sarus and just grind opponents to oblivion. Works out about the same cost as a TG unit, slann, unit of 18 spear saurus and another unit of 10. You are getting less static CR but more killiness all round. Not necessarily the ideal configuration but I can see it working, and you will still have 800-1000 points to spend on skirmishers, terradons, stegadons (but no engine with this list) etc.

Kill-Freedom
14-03-2009, 07:53
Both are very good, and and i am tempted to include a unit of each, in support of one and other, on a flank

10 skinks skimishers too lure, then a charge for both a unit of cold ones, and steg (with skink chief, with the spear, that gives an extra d6 impact hits) will be pretty devasting, too even the toughest unit out there

:D