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Asp
10-03-2009, 20:46
I only play Mordheim and I have a question: Given that most players are disgruntled with the way GW treats its customers and a large chunk of them are critical of GW's rules (Codex Creep etc.), how come people still do as they are told and stick to WHFB and 40K?

I understand that tastes differ but over the years, GW has had the wise madness to create all kinds of different niche games (i.e. Epic). So I am continuously struck by wonder, that more players aren't in Mordheim or in some skirmish variant of 40K.

This is not to fault anyone for choosing WHFB or 40K as their main game. But reasons as to why are greatly appreciated. From my perspective it was either WHFB or Mordheim and I have never regretted choosing Mordheim as it is:

- Cheaper
- Quicker to play
- Has a consistant campaign element
- You can actually finish painting a low-key warband in a month
- More fun to lavish attention on each of your 15 minis that having to paint YET another regiment where you rush over the rank and file troops (not everyone does this, I know!)
- Extremely interesting battlefield (although storing buildings takes up space :()

and so on...

This is not an attack or an attempt to sway anyone to Mordheim. I am genuinely curious.

DarthSte
10-03-2009, 20:49
I totally agree with you. I've not played Mordheim, but have played Necromunda and Blood Bowl. You can have a great deal of fun for a fraction of the price of an army.

(That said, I have more armies than rooms in my house, as I am a complete sucker for "the new big thing").

EmperorNorton
10-03-2009, 20:54
Well, Blood Bowl introduced me to GW's games and I still think it's their best, and I greatly enjoy Mordheim since playing for the first time about a year ago, so I can only guess why people don't play these games more often.
One reason probably is that they aren't as well known.
Another problem is their availability. I'd love to have a set or three of the Mordheim buildings, but I'm not willing to pay the insane prices on the secondary market. Getting the rules for free is nice, but building the scenery for Mordheim/Necromunda is a lot of effort, probably more than a lot of people are willing to take upon themselves.

CapitanGuinea
10-03-2009, 20:57
well... time is passed since most Specialist Games launch... most of them if not proposed by veteran are simply not known in existance by newbie or most of active players.

There are some legend (to few opponent available, and so on) that contribuite to this.

after all... Core games obtain several new stuff every month. Specialist Games are stopped until new order.

Chaplain Nikolai
10-03-2009, 21:00
I think its because its easier to find an opponent for one of the core games, we tried running a blood bowl league and no one showed up. :(

Durloth
10-03-2009, 21:02
While I play Mordheim from time to time (long time since last, now thet I think of it), I just love the scope of Warhammer. The look of big armies was what got me into the hobby and is sort of the thing that still gets me going...

Hicks
10-03-2009, 21:06
The miniatures for these games are generaly expensive or hard to find and often butt ugly. Also they receive no support from GW and some require loads of terrain to be enjoyed properly. There are no epic battles involving ubber powerfull heroes either.

For my part, I think Necromunda is one of the best game ever, but thank god I have the old scenery. I can also see how unapealing the minis could be to some newer players (I think I'm the only person in the world who thinks pitslaves are great minis).

Asp
10-03-2009, 21:13
The miniatures for these games are generaly expensive or hard to find and often butt ugly.

I wholeheartedly agree which is why I convert my own :)

Marshal Sinclair
10-03-2009, 21:20
The main reason I believe is that you can't play them in GW stores. When people take up the hobby they wish to play a game they can use in GW stores. They generally can't play Necro, or Gorka, or BFG or any of the other brilliant games in a store. They then proceed to forget about them and never pick them up again.

Irisado
10-03-2009, 21:26
I only play Mordheim and I have a question: Given that most players are disgruntled with the way GW treats its customers and a large chunk of them are critical of GW's rules (Codex Creep etc.), how come people still do as they are told and stick to WHFB and 40K?

As a general observation, I've noticed (and this was certainly the case with me) that when players are younger they tend to play the core games more, as this is that which most players of their age tend to play.

Also, such players, when they start the game, have no previous experience of previous versions and haven't had to go through so many rule changes, so they will tend to be more accepting of the first or second time that the rules get changed.

It's only after you've gone through five editions (yes, I've played every single edition of 40K....) that players can tend to become weary, but they have often become rather too attached to at least one army (especially if they have painted the models) to give up playing the core games, especially if it's still the most convenient game to play.

The core games tend to be convenient as quite often when players get to know each other later on in life, they may play specialist games, but they may not be the same games, hence it's easier to play the core games.

Now all of the above is just a series of general statements, and in some cases, suppositions, so I definitely don't presume to speak for everybody, but this is how I believe the situation I have outlined arises.

Availability of models and rules is of course the other issue.


I understand that tastes differ but over the years, GW has had the wise madness to create all kinds of different niche games (i.e. Epic). So I am continuously struck by wonder, that more players aren't in Mordheim or in some skirmish variant of 40K.

Be careful with saying that Epic is a niche game. While this may be true now, the core fan base is making a lot of effort to publicise it via Bell of Lost Souls, and originally (and this is the key point), Epic was GW's third core game. It had regular features and battle reports in White Dwarf during the Space Marine/Titan Legions era (which lasted for many years).

In addition to 40K, and the occasional game of Fantasy, I play Epic, Advanced Heroquest, and Heroquest with Advanced Heroquest rules, but trying to find opponents to play these games against is far harder for the previously stated reasons.

phedge
10-03-2009, 21:36
- I don't have a problem nor am I disgruntled with the way GW treats their customers. They're no different than the majority of businesses or services I interact with on a daily basis. If I ever feel strongly that I'm being mistreated by a company I will take my business elsewhere.

- I don't have major criticisms of the core rules for my main game (40K). Reasonable players find reasonable answers for most issues that arise. I take 40K for what it is - a casual sci-fi minatures wargaming experience. Perceived "Codex-Creep" doesn't concern me. If someone's looking for a tightly-ruled, tournament-solid and very balanced game, they're looking in the wrong place.

- I don't do what I'm told to do. I'm an adult. I do what I want. I want to play 40K. I enjoy it.

- I play all levels of 40K, from skirmish-level to Apocalypse. I also play Epic and BFG. I'm looking forward to the new Spacehulk.


I don't fault you for choosing Mordheim as your main game. If it works for you then that's great. As for me -

- Cheaper - I knew 40K was expensive when I got into it. As a working adult the cost doesn't really bother me, it's cheaper than playing golf.

- Quicker to play - I like a good long battle.

- Has a consistant campaign element - My friends and I create and play 40K campaigns often.

- You can actually finish painting a low-key warband in a month ... lavish attention ... interesting battlefield ... - I paint a Force Org choice, special character, new terrain piece or vehicle roughly every month. It's an enjoyable part of the hobby for me.

I hope that satisfies some of your curiosity.

the_reaper
10-03-2009, 21:42
People havent heard of most of them, I started (back in the day) when White Dwarf was good and regular articles on non-core games, but things like that have stopped.

But why would GW want to promote something like Mordheim? You dont need to buy as much for it as you do for WFB for example (EPIC may be an exception).

-reaper

Lord Humongous
10-03-2009, 21:58
Its a network effect; people choose to invest effort (money, time painting, time looking for opponents) in the main games because they are more likely to get the reward they want (a chance to play the games). As the name implies, a "niche" game has a smaller following; that's inherent in the fact that there are a wider variety of them. Smaller player base generally means less chance to play the game.

I really enjoy playing Necromunda more than 40K, but its much easier to find people to play 40K with. Its frustrating, but its also a LOT of effort, for little reward, for me to get a decent Necromunda campaign going.

The_Outsider
10-03-2009, 22:02
I stick to the core games (40k specifically) simply because it is near impossible to get an opponent at SC around here. I know maybe 2 people who would play (say) BFG, but with so little incentive noone bothers to buy models and read the rules - especially iwth the demise of the SC website.

Asp
10-03-2009, 22:14
why would GW want to promote something like Mordheim?

reason #1:
because its the perfect entry drug for WHFB.

Hero Quest got a whole generation into Warhammer. Mordheim did the same with several people about my age (~25). they were teens when mordheim came out and just wanted a warband. many ended up with multiple whfb armies.

reason #2:
pushing into uncharted territory creates unexpected innovation. if you look at much of the stuff that is being implemented into WHFB to this day, much of it was concieved in relation to mordheim.

the_reaper
10-03-2009, 22:30
reason #1:
because its the perfect entry drug for WHFB.

Hero Quest got a whole generation into Warhammer. Mordheim did the same with several people about my age (~25). they were teens when mordheim came out and just wanted a warband. many ended up with multiple whfb armies.

reason #2:
pushing into uncharted territory creates unexpected innovation. if you look at much of the stuff that is being implemented into WHFB to this day, much of it was concieved in relation to mordheim.

I would have thought, while smaller, the rules are much more in-depth and therefore might push people away?

-reaper

BaloOrk
10-03-2009, 23:13
If GW would release a "specialist game" every second year or so, i think they would earn back the money and broaden the hobby. :)

Lord Humongous
10-03-2009, 23:28
I don't think specialist / skirmish games are a good "gateway" to the core games. The good ones stand on their own as games, meaning there's little incentive to cross over. And its rare that both game support using the same sets of minis (though that would, IMO, be the smart way to go).

If anything, all the fun I had with Necromunda turned me AWAY from 40K; the 40K players at the shop I played Necromunda at back in the 90's were largely jerks who spent more time arguing than playing, and I didn;t want to blow 4 times the cash I already was just to get into THAT. Plus, while the rules were similar (at the time) I couldn't really use any of my minis for Necormunda in 40K. If anything, the "gate" seemed to swing the other way....

Melchor
10-03-2009, 23:33
The main problem with Specialist Games is finding players for them. I tried starting a Necromunda Campaign at my club and it failed because very few players could be bothered to start a gang from scratch. We're currently doing Mordheim campaign which has considerably more succes. Not in the least because several players already had warbands. Which means more opportunity to play.

Why do more people play just the core games? Because they're easier to get a hold of. Which means more players. Which means more chance of getting a game. It's a circle of supply and demand really.

I do enjoy the Specialist Games though. I played a lot of Necromunda in the past and am currently really enjoying Mordheim. Specialist games (especially the skirmis games) offer a nice change of pace from the core games.

Cane
11-03-2009, 00:06
Core games are the gateway drugs to all the other tabletop wargames out there. :chrome:

However I would've loved to have started out from a squad-based level like Mordheim and Necromunda but given the low model count of the armies, GW would be hard pressed to survive on those type of games as their main $$$.

Marshal Sinclair
11-03-2009, 00:11
GW would be hard pressed to survive on those type of games as their main $$$.

Which is why they were scrapped. For WFB / 40K you need 50-200 models. For Mordheim / Necro you need 5-20. That's 10x more income per army.

Fenlear
11-03-2009, 00:31
For me at least itís hard to get into a game that the company doesnít seem to support and GW hasnít done a dam thing with their specialty games in a long time. All attention these days goes towards Lord of the Rings and Historicals. Lord of the Rings alone seems to get more additions then Warhammer and 40K combined. Why the game most of us donít care for is getting more from GW then the specialist games that get endless praise, I canít understand. I play Warhammer and have always had an interest in Warmaster, but I canít afford to build an army when finding opponents is difficult and GW may very well discontinue it.

Melchor
11-03-2009, 00:37
Well the skirmish games can get by nicely without specialised support. For Necromunda models you can draw upon 40k models and most Mordheim warbands have a corresponding WFB army. Same goes for BloodBowl. Gorkamorka got re-released because of the new Ork kits! All you need to do is be a bit creative.

It's different for Warmaster, Epic and BFG of course.

IJW
11-03-2009, 01:07
Given that most players are disgruntled with the way GW treats its customers and a large chunk of them are critical of GW's rules (Codex Creep etc.), how come people still do as they are told and stick to WHFB and 40K?
It's always worth bearing in mind that it's a vocal minority that are disgruntled - by definition, most of GW's customers aren't that disgruntled or they wouldn't be GW customers any more. Yes their customer base has shrunk, but not by that much once you factor in the decrease in interest now that the LotR films have gone.

Anyway, it comes down to:


Lack of opponents.
Availability and expense for figures that can't be converted from 40k/Warhammer figures, especially for Warmaster which has a rarely-used scale and therefore can't be easily used with other systems.
Simple lack of knowledge in the case of newer players.
Lack of support/promotion/'new figure lust'.
A lot of people don't want to start a 'dead' system - look at how Starship Troopers suffered when it was discontinued.
Lack of opponents. Yes, I know I already listed this one, but it's kind of important...

As others have said, there's a network effect - if everyone's playing 40k there's a big incentive to play 40k because you know you'll get a game and have a wider choice of opponents.

Personally, I'm having a reasonably successful promo for Epic in our club by bringing along a few small forces and running intro games every week.

Asp
11-03-2009, 02:18
Good answers, everyone ^_^

yabbadabba
11-03-2009, 11:19
Given that most players are disgruntled with the way GW treats its customers and a large chunk of them are critical of GW's rules (Codex Creep etc.).

And where did you get that data from? Certainly not based on the inane mumblings of online forums I hope? Sorry, I can't see the evidence to back up your statement.

Aside from that - answer is marketing.

Asp
11-03-2009, 11:28
And where did you get that data from? Certainly not based on the inane mumblings of online forums I hope? Sorry, I can't see the evidence to back up your statement.

no, I go by the sentiment amongst players here and IRL. and someone pointed out earlier (and more politely, I might add) this is a bad method for determining customer satisfaction

but you have to give me: the whining over GW never stops!

yabbadabba
11-03-2009, 11:34
no, I go by the sentiment amongst players here and IRL. and someone pointed out earlier (and more politely, I might add) this is a bad method for determining customer satisfaction

but you have to give me: the whining over GW never stops!

You set yourself up. Couch things more realistically next time. And yes the whining never stops - mostly by the same people about the same things.

Back to your topic. The SG's are fantastic if a little limited. And thats the main reason why they were not as popular as the "core games". There is a finite amount of stuff you can do with your gang/team/warband et al. But that makes SG games all the more intense and a great break from wargames in general. The people who stick to SG's exclusively are certainly, to my mind, an extremely dedicated bunch.

Crube
11-03-2009, 15:02
Why do I play WFB and 40K over SGs...

Well, I do still have an epic ork army, a couple of Blood bowl teams, and would love to get hold of some BFG ships, but ultimately, there's a lack of opponents. Check out the SG section of Warseer for example, and there's quite a few less people post there than in the other sections.

As for cost, I find the minis to be expensive even by GW standards, and incredibly difficult to get hold of.

I'm also not enamoured by the skirmish style games. Yes i love a game of Blood Bowl, but Mordheim, Necromunda and Gorkamorka all bore the pants of me. I much prefer a big battle, heroic combats and the like.

(Ironically though i love playing WFRP...go figure :rolleyes:)

I also like the planning and collecting of a larger army. Yes it costs more overall, in terms of money and time, but i get out what I put in.

zedeyejoe
11-03-2009, 15:08
I liked Space Hulk & Advanced Heroquest, dabbled with Epic and tried most of the the others. Poorly written rules IMHO.

Lord Malorne
11-03-2009, 15:29
To shake things up I have started Necromunda, BFG, Blood Bowl and I am thinking of doing Mordheim and Epic, they are a really nice change and very good games.

The problem is, the only way to know that is to start them without any knowlege of them as they get no support at all, if I knew they where as good as they are I would have started years ago.

It also a bloody shame GW does not let indies stock them.

Warboss Antoni
12-03-2009, 03:18
This is not to fault anyone for choosing WHFB or 40K as their main game. But reasons as to why are greatly appreciated. From my perspective it was either WHFB or Mordheim and I have never regretted choosing Mordheim as it is:

- Cheaper- Quicker to play
- Has a consistant campaign element
- You can actually finish painting a low-key warband in a month
- More fun to lavish attention on each of your 15 minis that having to paint YET another regiment where you rush over the rank and file troops (not everyone does this, I know!)
- Extremely interesting battlefield (although storing buildings takes up space )

and so on...

Think that's the main reason. Why pay apparently lots for a large range ( you need a lot of models for those games ) when it costs so much less?

I don't think it helps that they ban them to 1 day a week from the stores either ( which happened when Necromunda took off here ).

lotrchampion
12-03-2009, 03:22
The core games have the simpler rulesets by-and-large, and are generally easier to find games for. Most people, from the twelve-year-old starters to 42 year olds playing at a mates house on a whim, will usually find it more encouraging to continue a game system after a first experience if they can pick up the rules easily. Obviously there are many exceptions, but its generally easier to get people into the game that way.

I personally love the Specialist Games; I've played most of them at one time or another (Epic the exception) and have sizeable warbands/teams/fleets for most of them. I'm currently about to start a Mordheim campaign at my local store, where Specialist Games haven't been regularly played in a long while, so hoping to get a fair few players interested in it. Mordheim is a beautiful system, and of course its wlays nice to watch a Warband develop over weeks and months.

Reinholt
12-03-2009, 04:52
To be fair, now there are also three (and soon to plausibly be four) core games:

- Fantasy
- 40k
- LotR SBG & LotR WotR

From what I've seen in terms of "hype" with the local players around here, I think WotR has the potential to be the solid third wheel GW has been looking for for a long time. It seems to be sucking in a lot of Fantasy and 40k players, unlike the LotR SBG, possibly because it's not a timed release with the movies and feels like a complete game.

great_wolf_1283
12-03-2009, 08:16
Yes, Reinholt, I'd have to agree with you about WotR. I personally think it's more what people think a wargame should be about, armies clashing on the table and all that.

Back OT, I do find that, yes, younger players tend to focus on the core games, some would say to the detriment of the specialist games, but i do think there is a lot of untapped potential there. Part of it is actually showing these new (to SG at least) gamers what's out there, as well as the models and painting. I always found with my SG collections, if I took the time to convert, build and paint the models in the store, then I would invariablly see other people show an interest. Then obviously I'd have a copy of the rulebook and let them see it, amaybe have a read of it.

Part of being the veteran I am is not just about having a large collection of both painted and unpainted miniatures, it's about enjoying the games, and showing others how much I enjoy them. Many assume that younger gamers will just stumble across them and pick them up, when if we did a bit of leg work, then there would probably be more people. That can even mean *shock horror* going into a GW to do some modellling and painting and gaming!

Note, I am wrtiting from a British experience, can't really speak for the States or the Continent

Thud
12-03-2009, 08:28
I used to play Mordheim, but I got bored with it so I went back to 40k. Not because of lack of GW attention (this was back when Mordheim was a regular WD feature) or lack of opponents, but because I prefer larger games (1,500 point level 40k) instead of small skirmishes.

That said, I'd like to try out BFG, but unfortunately I don't know of anyone in my city playing it and I'd also have to buy it from online, which, to be honest, is a bit of a hassle (living in Norway so I'll have to pay customs of any purchase over £20).

Occulto
12-03-2009, 10:59
Think that's the main reason. Why pay apparently lots for a large range ( you need a lot of models for those games ) when it costs so much less?

Well remove Epic and Warmaster from the equation then. Short of a good deal on the 2nd hand forums or alternate models, both games require as much (if not more) cash investment (not to mention effort).

I've been lucky with my Epic Eldar, and I shudder to think how much it would cost to replace my stuff at retail. :eek:

The reason why the Specialist Games don't take hold? Purely because they're a different thing entirely. They're good games, they're not the same. It's like saying to someone, "so you like Blackjack, well you'll enjoy Bridge just as much."

People talk about how much more complex, deep or mentally taxing the specialist games are, and in a lot of ways I'd agree. But I know that's not for everyone. I know plenty people who'd rather punch themselves in the crotch than sit down to Mordheim or BFG because neither game interests them in the slightest.

zedeyejoe
12-03-2009, 11:16
Many assume that younger gamers will just stumble across them and pick them up, when if we did a bit of leg work, then there would probably be more people.

My experience was that my friends sons saw my collection of figures and asked to come round for games. Then they started to bring their friends round and things started to get seriously out of control. So I set up a formal club locally (and was vetted by the police). Had a couple of girls express interest but none was prepared to be the first girl. Ended up with about 20 young members at the point when I left the area.

I would like to see modern versions of Space Hulk and Advanced Heroquest out there and available as 'game in a box' games.

Master Jeridian
12-03-2009, 13:27
IJW wrote:
Lack of opponents.

Availability and expense for figures that can't be converted from 40k/Warhammer figures, especially for Warmaster which has a rarely-used scale and therefore can't be easily used with other systems.

Simple lack of knowledge in the case of newer players.
Lack of support/promotion/'new figure lust'.

A lot of people don't want to start a 'dead' system - look at how Starship Troopers suffered when it was discontinued.

Lack of opponents. Yes, I know I already listed this one, but it's kind of important...


This pretty much sums it up, how can a game like Epic (my favourite at present) ever compete with Core Games when it 'doesn't exist' in a local store (no pictures, no shelf space, no comments, abject denial by staff), when it is in effect a 'dead' game system with no official support, releases or updates.

This is not to diminish the supreme efforts and works of fan-based Epic army lists, support, etc. but you can't have an Epic fan sat in every GW Store pushing the game. You can have a GW staffer with a lavishly prepared demo board for 40k sat there.


I do have to call out the excuse that models are ugly/expensive in the case of Necro/Mordheim, if only there was a constantly updated 28mm game system with plastics set in the same 'game universe' from which to buy a Necro gang or 2 at the cost of an IG squad box for example, if only...
(IJW touched on this in his bullet points, so it's not aimed at him)

As to why GW has chosen to quietly kill Specialist Games in all but name, who knows?
Every business is cutting costs, tightening belts and looking worryingly at the recession- perhaps Specialist Games was one of the things to be cut, specifically the Development team that ran it, and the online support and magazine for it.
Trying something new, taking a gamble on Specialists being a hit, etc are all risks- and businesses in recessions don't like risks, they like familiarity, they like milking the cash cow that worked for them in the better times.

scarletsquig
12-03-2009, 16:50
If GW returns to specialist games at the 28mm level, there has to be crossover between the core game and the specialist game.

I think Mordheim sees more action than Necromunda simply because people can use models straight out of their own fantasy army, maybe add 3-4 new ones and they're sorted.

Inquistor was also quite successful when people played it at 28mm scale.

Chaos and Evil
12-03-2009, 17:28
Well remove Epic and Warmaster from the equation then. Short of a good deal on the 2nd hand forums or alternate models, both games require as much (if not more) cash investment (not to mention effort).

I disagree. You can get a full and rounded EPIC army for £80-£100.

That's about the price of three Land Raiders, in other words about one third to one half the cost of a 40k 1500pt army.


People talk about how much more complex, deep or mentally taxing the specialist games are, and in a lot of ways I'd agree. But I know that's not for everyone.

I agree. Most people seem to want to play a 'turn your brain off and roll dice' game, not a tactically complex wargame.

That's the only way I can explain the success of Apocalypse ; Most gamers don't want to play a balanced wargame, they want flash and thunder silly-fun*.


* And if they enjoy their 'turn brain off' games then that's cool with me, GW is doing its job correctly in providing what the market wants.

shakespear
12-03-2009, 20:31
I think alot of people are turned off by "mail order only" which means the local shops cant even get it.

I cant get BFG, Epic or Warmaster off the ground because of this.

scolex
12-03-2009, 23:18
Simple, GW doesn't promote or support Bloodbowl, Mordheim, or Necromunda at all.

No articles or shiny new releases to see means no players start, many don't even know they exist. I would love to play these games, but there is no player base in my area. And we all know that a game can be as fantastic as it wants to be, but it doesn't matter if you can't find anyone to play.

Occulto
13-03-2009, 01:02
I disagree. You can get a full and rounded EPIC army for £80-£100.

That's about the price of three Land Raiders, in other words about one third to one half the cost of a 40k 1500pt army.

Maybe the pricing's wildly different here in Oz, but I did the sums for brand new retail and it came out being more expensive. Hence, any purchases I make now are purely 2nd hand.

Even so, it doesn't help that two of the big armies have ******* all official model support - Chaos & Nids.

Templar Ben
13-03-2009, 02:38
I don't because of opponents. The only core game I play regularly is LotR because it is so well made. I do play D&D minis and Star Wars minis/ships so that is my version of Mordheim, Necromunda, and BFG respectively. I can get plenty of opponents for those games.

mrtn
13-03-2009, 03:39
I started with Mordheim but now I prefer WFB. I like to have manouvering, and wizards that can do more than wound themselves.

Korras
13-03-2009, 06:42
I have a BFG fleet, and a rather large one at that. now, in the 5 or so years that I've had it, I played about 1 match with it. while fun, there's a large lack of opponents to play with. so, I'm out of luck. that was also the only SG match I ever saw happening.

Chaos and Evil
13-03-2009, 12:59
Maybe the pricing's wildly different here in Oz, but I did the sums for brand new retail and it came out being more expensive. Hence, any purchases I make now are purely 2nd hand.

Even so, it doesn't help that two of the big armies have ******* all official model support - Chaos & Nids.

1000pts (A full Battle Company) of Space Marine infantry costs £12, and a standard game is 3000pts.

So yeah, I'm guessing that Oz prices are more expensive.

IJW
13-03-2009, 13:26
AU$35, so roughly £16.50, compared to £11.75 in the UK.

I think the problem is when you go for anything but basic infantry - Rhinos on the Australian store cost £3.30 each, and technically that Battle Company needs six of them.

So a Battle Company plus it's free transports in Australia costs around AU$77/£36. Still comparable to those three Land Raiders, though, for a 3k Epic force.

pringles978
13-03-2009, 13:26
i love the specialist games and necromunda will always hold a special place in my heart, but i find it so difficult to organise games of anything, any sort of campaign (the best way to play most of them) is an impossible task. i would love to have a go at a mordheim campaign again, but i think ive got more cance of being mae the next pope than finding the time or opponents

Occulto
13-03-2009, 13:50
AU$35, so roughly £16.50, compared to £11.75 in the UK.

I think the problem is when you go for anything but basic infantry - Rhinos on the Australian store cost £3.30 each, and technically that Battle Company needs six of them.

So a Battle Company plus it's free transports in Australia costs around AU$77/£36. Still comparable to those three Land Raiders, though, for a 3k Epic force.

Yup. Stuff works out around 30% to 40% more expensive than in the UK.

Can it be done? Sure.

But my point remains, that neither Epic or Warmaster are the same realm as Necromunda, Mordheim or 28mm Inquisitor which are the truly cheap Specialist Games.

If a player wants to go for the bigger armies like Orks or IG it's a rather substantial investment. To get a decent army (not the barest minimum "nothing but SM") it's over what people might buy "just to try it out".

mweaver
13-03-2009, 14:05
I primarily play Mordheim, but it is mainly that I simply prefer RPGs and skirmish games where I can imagine models as individuals.

I have played a bit of Warhammer, and enjoy it. But until I brush up on the rules and teach more friends to play, I'll be playing mainly Mordheim (I am not a huge fan of playing with strangers). I like the feeling that seeing a WHFB army, ranked up, ready for battle, gives you.

Marlow
13-03-2009, 15:51
Given that most players are disgruntled with the way GW treats its customers and a large chunk of them are critical of GW's rules (Codex Creep etc.), how come people still do as they are told and stick to WHFB and 40K?

GW's background helps draw people into the game and once you have invested there is little reason to leave. I would say the main reasons for staying are other games lack of players and cost of investing in something new.

Many people start with a flavour of Warhammer and have a sizeable investment before they find out about other games. Even if you stop buying new stuff, you can carry on playing with what you have only needing an occasional rule book purchase.

My main game is Blood Bowl, but some weeks I struggle to find an opponent as not that many people play the game. Where as almost everyone at our club has a 40k army (and over half have War Machine) so it is always possible to play one of those games.

Griefbringer
13-03-2009, 17:11
As for Necromunda models, a lot of those should be useable in 40K games as Imperial Guardsmen.

mweaver
13-03-2009, 22:38
Yup, and by an amazing coincidence most of my Mordheim human mercs are painted in Nuln colors, which matches my Empire army.

Swifty
13-03-2009, 23:11
Because I like space marines and tanks and even space marines driving tanks. I have played every specialist game and think they are all good games but 40k is just better. It plays better, it looks better and most of all it has the best background of any tabletop game I have ever played. Armies fighting has a much bigger appeal to me than just a few models and epic is too small for me it just doesn't feel right when playing it (adeptus Titanicus on the other hand!)