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Slaaneshi Ice Cream
11-03-2009, 01:57
Does the spell black horror require line of sight to the target?

Here's the exact wording:

"Place the center of the large template anywhere within 18" of the caster. All models touched by the template must pass a Strength test or suffer a Wound, no armor saves allowed. Any unit that suffers one or more Wounds must immediately test for Panic.

Bac5665
11-03-2009, 02:06
No. "Anywhere within 18"" is quite specific. You do not need line of sight, as long as the designated location is withing 18" of the wizard. Nice and simple.

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
11-03-2009, 02:16
But then I could argue that Doom and Darkness doesn't need LOS. It just says target a unit in range. Had that situation come up tonight, and I'm not sure what to tell my friend.

Neckutter
11-03-2009, 02:21
unless it is a magic missle, or it says something like "within caster's LOS" it doesnt need LOS.
most of the new spells that SHOULD be magic missles(WoC tzeentch spell #6 comes to mind) arent even magic missles even though you take hits like a magic missle. but it says (within 24") which makes it really strong.

Spirit
11-03-2009, 02:23
But then I could argue that Doom and Darkness doesn't need LOS. It just says target a unit in range. Had that situation come up tonight, and I'm not sure what to tell my friend.

No need to argue, that's how it works ;p

Neckutter
11-03-2009, 02:23
there is ALWAYS room to argue. :)
its a lil thing i like to call "warhammer" :)

Nurgling Chieftain
11-03-2009, 02:23
But then I could argue that Doom and Darkness doesn't need LOS.And you'd be right - it doesn't. :cool:

Slaaneshi Ice Cream
11-03-2009, 02:46
Oh in that case we did it right.

lucky git
11-03-2009, 07:35
but can u cast it at a unit that is engaged in CC? my answer is yes, cause you dont "target anything".

cheers

Sander

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 10:27
Yes you can hit units that are in combat using black horror, your opponent also doesn't get any magic resistance against it because there's no target.

narrativium
11-03-2009, 10:58
I'd actually argue that if the spell doesn't specify you can place the template on a unit in close combat, then you can't do it. That would be an exception to "anywhere in 18".

I'd agree with the Magic Resistance not being applicable, though.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 11:15
I'd actually argue that if the spell doesn't specify you can place the template on a unit in close combat

Is that just an arbitarary "I don't like this" statement? I've made a lot of those so I'm not being critical just wondering what your thinking is.

Kamenwati
11-03-2009, 11:23
Pg 107 says otherwise. Spells cannot be cast into close combat unless it says it specifically can or directly affects only the caster (Bears Anger, Flaming Sword, etc).

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 11:34
You cast the spell at a point though, not at a unit. Its a bit gamey but there you go. We're discussing rules at the moment, rather than what is appropriate or what is sporting, which is why I was asking narrativium about his post.

Of course you can debate the point with your opponent in the hope of arriving at what you think is a better solution, however the latest FAQ supports the conclusion that the spell can be cast over a point that will affect a unit engaged in combat.

WLBjork
11-03-2009, 11:46
Which Q&A are you refering to?

I see nothing to allow ABH to be cast at a unit in close combat.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 11:56
BRB FAQ part 2

Q. Do the effects of the Lore of Light spell, Guardian
Light apply to friendly models engaged in close
combat?
A. Yes, as the spell is not cast ‘at’ any specific target,
but it affects all friendly units within 12”.

Spells that have an area of effect rather than trageting a unit will affect units in combat.

narrativium
11-03-2009, 11:59
Gazak: it's along the lines of "I think I remember a rule for this but I don't have my book handy", and Kamenwati provided a page reference.

I can see the reasoning that "anywhere in range" includes "that unit if it's in range, regardless of what it's doing", and that it may be awkward or even impossible to cast the spell effectively if the template has to be positioned such that units in combat aren't affected, but I think that's how it works.

(edit - just seen your Q&A quote): interesting example. I'll have to rethink this.

moose
11-03-2009, 12:23
An age old question where noone ever agrees, but does Black Horror allow you to use magic resistance if that unit is targetted?

Moose.

nosferatu1001
11-03-2009, 12:27
Nowhere in the rules for BH does it say a unit is targetted, so MR does not apply.

Aoe or "place tempplate at a point" do not target units, only affect them. MR does not apply in these cases.

EvC
11-03-2009, 12:30
You cast the spell at a point though, not at a unit. Its a bit gamey but there you go. We're discussing rules at the moment, rather than what is appropriate or what is sporting, which is why I was asking narrativium about his post.

The "point" is a unit in close combat, even if the unit in close combat is not being directly targeted. I see this as different from Guardian Light as you do not choose your target, whereas with Black Horror you do. And anyone that tries to choose a unit in close combat and says he's targeting the table gets a swift cuff from the "don't be a nobber" police ;)

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 12:42
No the "point" is a "point", and well that is the point. You can play it anyway you like but as we've been over this a thousand times or more, even since the FAQ was released, I'll recuse myself from further discussion.

GW drew a line under the debates regarding whether the terms affect and target are logically identical in their games when they deliberately changed the wording in an FAQ from one to the other. I don't feel there's much left to discuss outside of etiquette.

Cuffing people (or calling in the fuzz to do it for you) isn't great etiquette either, pistols at dawn is more civilised and should put an end to unpleasant arguments on way or the other.;)

EvC
11-03-2009, 13:02
Well I do agree that there is certainly circumstial evidence that BH can be placed targeting units in combat, but that's only from looking at spells where the area of effect is not directly determined by the caster, e.g. Guardian Light or even Comet of Cassandora (which lacks any allowance to harm units in combat either ;) ). In those cases you are not physicially choosing which units to harm- with Black Horror you are picking the area, and picking which units are or are not hit by it. Remember, the only thing the FAQ changed was whether MR could be used for units affected/ targeted by spells- it should not really have any bearing on whether spells can be cast into close combat. Those rules are unchanged.

PeG
11-03-2009, 13:27
That part of the FAQ could use some clarifications. I agree that the only logical conclusion from the rules as of today would be that MR does not apply (not targeted even if it is the only unit that is affected) and following that no units is targeted it would also make sense that it can indeed be cast into combat (well at least on a point of ground that happen to be occupied by a unit that is in combat).

However I dont think that this is a good ruling (if it was intended or not).While I think it makes sense that one unit with MR3 cant protect the complete battlefield against for example wind of undeath I dont think that it makes sense to have a situation were a large proportion of the spells (at least from a couple of armies) suddenly can be cast into combat and avoid MR complications due to targeting points in the battlefield.

This has been the case for the comet for some time but it has been an exception rather than a rule and also it is a RIP spell that cant entirely be controlled by the casting player so it does have some other disadvantages as well.

EvC
11-03-2009, 15:57
I checked the rulebook, and there's no mention of targeting or anything like that. It simply says you can't cast spells at units in combat. If you try and cast Black Horror at a unit in combat, then you are trying to cast a spell at a unit in combat (even if you sugarcoat it by saying you're "targeting the ground"). Thus, it simply can't be done.

I fully expect the rules lawyers to disagree with me in force. Just try it :D

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 16:47
Well you've already covered why you're wrong (target a point not casting at a unit). As I said, anything else is a matter of etiquette.

Being a frequent poster on the rules sub-forum you probably knew all that before you posted in this particular thread though ;).

I'd prefer it if both magic resistance and close combat restrictions were based on area affected rather than targeting though. I agree the current RAW for these is a bit sucky.

EvC
11-03-2009, 18:18
Either you're not reading my posts, or you simply can't read. Sorry to be blunt there, but you probably know what I'm like ;)

I checked the rulebook, and there's no mention of targeting or anything like that.

There, I've bolded it for you. Now kindly stop talking as if targeting matters a damn- all that matters is if the spell is being cast at the unit. Which, it definitely is, if the player is placing the template on the unit.

PeG
11-03-2009, 18:43
Thanks EvC, I will play according to that rule until someone can explain why it cant be done. Even if you are not targeting the unit you are in fact casting the spell at a unit in combat. At least its good enough for me

Warlord Gnashgrod
11-03-2009, 21:21
I think this is a case of RAW vs RAI. Maybe by using a bunch of rules pieces here and there, you can make it so you can cast this spell into combat. I would argue though that you can't, as the spell itself doesn't say you can.

If that fails me though, I'll simply revert to Skaven rules for this circumstance: the number of hits are rolled for both sides, meaning both units will probably take hits. Remember that the combat isn't as static as it looks like on the table. If you're targeting a specific area where combat is, the swirling melee would mean there will most likely be casualties on both sides.

Try that, and lets see how quickly they change their target to a unit not in combat. LOL

Kalandros
11-03-2009, 21:54
Skaven rule belongs to Skaven only.

Some basic rules:

You cannot voluntarily target, with shooting & Magic, a close combat.
You cannot voluntarily affect your own troops, with shooting & magic.

Black Horror is cast at a point, yes, but the template is not allowed to touch units in close combat, basic rules again.

There's RAW, there's RAI, then there's nitpicking every possible meaning behind every single word of every rule.

Come on.

nosferatu1001
12-03-2009, 06:40
Kalandros - sorry, but you are wrong. Magic is specifically exempt from the normal targetting rules: if you have a spell that states it can be cast into close combat then it can be cast into close combat! However, the spell if it targets a unit must specifically say it can effect the unit in close combat; if it doesn't then you cannot target a unit.

Black horror does not target a unit, it targets a point on the table. Once you do THAT MR is not applicable and the unit can be affected.

WLBjork
12-03-2009, 08:08
Be more precise nosferatu1001. Magic has it's own targetting rules.

One of which is that a spell cannot be cast at a unit in close combat (unless otherwise stated [OS]/it only affects the wizard[AW]) - the word targetted is specifically not used.

ABH cannot be cast at a unit in CC.



Indeed, from the BRB the following spells can be cast into CC:

Flaming Sword of Rhuin (AW)

Rule of Burning Iron (OS)
Transmutation of Lead (OS)

Steed of Shadows (OS)
Crown of Taidron (OS)
Shades of Death (OS)

Bears Anger (OS)
The Beast Cowers (OS)

Portent of Far (OS)

Pha's illumination (OS)
Healing Energy (OS)
Dazzling Brightness (OS)
Cleansing Flare (OS)

Mistress of the Marsh (OS)
Gift of Life (OS)
The Howler Wind (AW)

Steal Soul (OS)
Walking Death (OS)
Doom and Darkness (OS)
Drain Life (OS)



[So, GW got that particular answer wrong, Guardian Light does not affect units in CC - see how all the other, similar spells (Cleansing Flare being a brilliant example) specify that they affect units in CC.
To be fair, it does seem to be the only spell with a fixed radius from the caster that doesn't have the "affects units in CC" caveat, but that needs an errata to fix.]

EvC
12-03-2009, 16:05
Kalandros - sorry, but you are wrong. Magic is specifically exempt from the normal targetting rules: if you have a spell that states it can be cast into close combat then it can be cast into close combat! However, the spell if it targets a unit must specifically say it can effect the unit in close combat; if it doesn't then you cannot target a unit.

Black horror does not target a unit, it targets a point on the table. Once you do THAT MR is not applicable and the unit can be affected.

I do agree MR can't be used, because a unit must be targeted in order to gain its benefit. But casting into combat is more different, and simpler: you just can't do it, unless allowed, which BH has no allowance for.

Nekrodamus
12-03-2009, 18:58
'Casting at a unit' and 'targeting a unit' is obviously exactly the same. And since casting 'at' points, 'at' areas or 'at' the whole table is something different, those spells can affect units in CC.

Nurgling Chieftain
12-03-2009, 19:44
I find your argument contradictory, Nekrodamus. If "casting at a unit" and "targeting a unit" are the same - i.e., we're taking the loose and normal definition of "target" - than placing a template over a unit is clearly targeting it, as well.

Greystone
12-03-2009, 20:16
Ask yourself this, If this gets faq'ed, will they support it? I think not. Template attacks should only hit cc if they are shooting attacks that have scatted there. If it was intended that the spell be able to be cast into cc it would say so. Even if you think you have raw on your side, remember that faq's will usually side with their intentions rather than raw, or else we would all be spiking steam tanks right?

Draconian77
12-03-2009, 20:21
~Cast at a point on the table.

~Anything under the template gets hit.

~Not cast at a target nor targetting anything specifically.

~Hits things in close combat and ignores magic resistence as per the FAQ.

~You can't shoot into combat but a Stone Thrower can still scatter into a combat. (Not really an ideal example but, meh, not really a gung-ho argument.)

Nurgling Chieftain
12-03-2009, 22:46
So, by placing a template over a unit you're not casting the spell at them? I mean, the only defense for saying you're not "targeting" that unit is the idea that "target" is more specifically defined - in common parlance, you certainly ARE targeting it! There's no coherent way to argue that "at" is also too specifically defined.

Necromancy Black
12-03-2009, 23:18
Was this the spell that you only place the template down once you've successfully cast it?

EvC
13-03-2009, 13:00
~Cast at a point on the table.

~Anything under the template gets hit.

~Not cast at a target nor targetting anything specifically.

~Hits things in close combat and ignores magic resistence as per the FAQ.

~You can't shoot into combat but a Stone Thrower can still scatter into a combat. (Not really an ideal example but, meh, not really a gung-ho argument.)

The difference between a stone thrower and black horror is that black horror does not scatter- if you placed it near units, and it scattered into them, it would be fair game. The apt comprison is that you cannot choose to shoot a stone thrower at a unit in combat, and nor can you choose to place a mighty great template at a unit in combat when casting a spell- unless the text allows you to.

Shamfrit
13-03-2009, 13:07
EvC is right to a certain degree.

You can't voluntarily target combat with it...but if you placed it over a unit and the slightest bit of the template clips combat then it can't be helped.

The template is placed after the cast/dispel is it not?

We have no objection in our group to it being cast into combat, if anything, our Dark Elf player is greedy and ends up hitting some of her own troops most of the time anyway in a bid to get as much of the enemy unit as possible.

Dareus
13-03-2009, 13:32
The template is placed after the cast/dispel is it not?


I don't have a rulebook at hand right now. But don't you always declare the target of a spell before casting/dispelling?

Shamfrit
13-03-2009, 13:35
You declare the point within 18" by all means, but you don't place the template down until after dispel attempts. At least, that's how we've played it since 6th Edition Dark Elves...

I'm sure someone will tell me I'm wrong.

Necromancy Black
13-03-2009, 14:44
Except if it says you place the template after casting I don't see why you should nominate a target. Espicially considering you might guess to far away, and that's not how this spell works, you simple place it so it's in 18" and hit whatever is underneath.

Dareus
13-03-2009, 15:31
Ok... so when it explicitely ignores this rule ( like all the others as range-finding and casting into combat ;) ) it's really special. Don't have the Dark Elves book so just relied on the BRB.

EvC
14-03-2009, 17:46
EvC is right to a certain degree.

You can't voluntarily target combat with it...but if you placed it over a unit and the slightest bit of the template clips combat then it can't be helped.

Of course it can be helped, the Dark Elf player then just goes, "Oh, that's in combat, I'll just shift it over a bit so that I'm not breaking the rules".


The template is placed after the cast/dispel is it not?

It is. That doesn't equate to meaning it gets to break the rules though.


We have no objection in our group to it being cast into combat, if anything, our Dark Elf player is greedy and ends up hitting some of her own troops most of the time anyway in a bid to get as much of the enemy unit as possible.

Gotta love a gaming group that rules that Fanatics must follow RAW and die if they hit a hill, but are happy to bend the rules to make one of the most powerful spells in the game even stronger! But if you guys enjoy those games then it's not my place to comment :)