PDA

View Full Version : Skaven, Dark Elves or Lizzies?



Mostly Ghostly
11-03-2009, 02:19
I'm planning on getting back into Warhammer after far too long an absence, and I'm torn between Skaven, Dark Elves, and Lizardmen. I've had a love affair with Rat Ogres ever since the pitfighting article on the GW site, and I love the "dirt, blood, and filthy fur" feel of the army, as well as the amazing conversion potential. I'm mainly attracted to Dark Elves because of their lighting fast, razor sharp playstyle and the amazing Corsair models. The problem with both of these armies is that they're thoroughly evil, and I like to identify a bit with my army. This is where the lizzies come in - they're probably the closest the Warhammer world has to a "good" race. I mean, sure, they're not very friendly to treasure-hunters, but hey, that's what happens when you try to steal their ****, and at least they don't have a brutal inquisition or nobles that treat the lower class like scum. Also, dinosaurs are awesome.

So, I need the opinion of the boards. Those of you who play one of these races - why do you like them? Those of you who don't, why not?

Neckutter
11-03-2009, 02:24
dark elves.

DE are amazing to paint. the minis are extremely awesome, and the armybook is powerful. plus you are an evil army. what more do you need? :)

LM are OK. they arent spectacular, and i feel the book lacks a little character. i dont know if its just the loss of spawnings, but it just doesnt feel as fun as it used to be. saurus are stronger now, though. not overpowered, but stronger.

skaven were kinda fun when you could play the eshin list in storm of chaos. i didnt much like anything else. i tried a clan skrye list, but i didnt like it as much. after i spent $350 and a lot of time putting rats together i realized i didnt want to paint 150+ models, and i ebayed them right quick. :)

Foegnasher
11-03-2009, 02:46
SKAVEN!!!

You want to play a unique army? Play skaven. Want to play herohammer? too bad. our heros suck, they're rats. Want to play Deathstars? too bad. we're just rats.

rats we may be, but there are lots of us. and we are sneaky bastards. just when you think you have us, we're behind you. Skaven are rarely straightforeward, and require a lot of practice to get right, but man is it satifying when you beat a bunch of chaos knights with only slaves and clanrats.

Now this list can, and often is abused. if you want 13 power dice, or scads of artillary, go ahead and play dark elves. they do it better. but if you want to outnumber your oppontent 4:1? you want him to look across the board and see rats from table edge to table edge? you want him p*ssing himself when he can figure out where to go or what to attack, because there are just so damn many?

then you need to play skaven. The children of the Horned Rat are a rewarding army, but it aint for everyone.

Foegnasher, master of the skittery horde.

garythewargamer
11-03-2009, 03:16
The lizards are a middle of the road race, am I correct?

Now if you want to play a good race may I offer the HE? They have the always strike first rule. The have an RBT that never has a chance of failure. Some other races have them.

HE archers have a range of 30 vice 24 as most. And a better BS. DE have the double shoot crossbows which are awesome. Empire has the guns but a weaker BS.

Elf spearman while only T3 and S3, have one advantage which, I believe, is unique. On the charge 2 ranks of spearman gets to attack. On defense 3 ranks get to attack and get to attack first.

Chariots, even without the blades, are pretty awesome especially with the lions pulling them. They do not suffer from stupidy.

HE sword masters are a true killing machine but killable outside of close combat with shooting and magic.
White lions do damage and have survivablity and stubborn.
PG dont kill much but cause fear, ward save and probably will not break quickly.
Dragon princes get two attacks and are immune to flaming attacks.

war eagles are cheap, march blockers, warmachine hunters and sometimes able to go after weak mages.

They get three types of dragons. Three types and even one that you can put a dragon mage on. Dragon mages get a free power die when attempting to cast spells.
HE lords and nobles are slightly more costly than other human armies but still get the ASF rule. Mage have the same problems. But a HE mage gives you a plus one to dispell and that sometimes can be huge.

HE lore has drain magic, a shield, help for shooting, something to do break test, 2d6 fireball spell, a remain in place spell and an unmaking spell. Drain magic can prove helpful against magic heavy armies.

Now I am a little disappointed with the their weapons and armour but the other items available can be very useful.

Special characters: a guy who can ride a chariot, one who can kill his killer and a guy who has a bow like a one shot RBT.

Then the big three special lords
Eltharion the Grim on a griffin. A pretty good fighter with good armour, a very good sword and is a 2nd level mage.

Tyrion very reasonably priced with a special steed. A awesome sword, special armour, good MR and a regen save.

Teclis could be the very best archmage in the game. He does not have to roll for spells, he knows all spells of 9 lores. The eight regular and HE but can only use one a battle. Special dispell scroll which not only stops the spell but has a chance of removing it from the mind of the caster. Has a book which is truly wonderful. During the casting of a spell, if he meets the min. requirement and rolls any doubles besides ones it goes off at IR. His sword is truly wonderful and a waste for him. He only gets one attack. Wish he could give it to someone else.

And besides this they paint up pretty nice. Surely by now you have guessed that I play the HE.

Ultimate Life Form
11-03-2009, 04:07
Welcome to Jurassic Park! Iīm currently working to get a reputation as the ultimate LM freak around here, and as such, Iīd have to advise Lizardmen, especially since no one else did. Now whatīs so awesome about them?

1. As you noticed, dinosaurs are just plain coooooooooooooooooool!:evilgrin: And Iīll personally kill anyone with my bare hands who says the Stegadon is useless!

2. The style! You got that absolutely right! What could be more awesome than bipedal aztec lizards with high-end technology who are zealous followers of omniscient space toads, just work towards their goals and donīt give a damn about anyone or anything else? And yes, theyīre the good guys!

3. The colors! The colors! I just canīt stop looking at my army! Lizardmen are the ultimate army if you have a soft spot for bright and flashy colors! No one else can do this without looking ridiculous! Lizardmen are potentially the most colorful army around. Plus, since there are no Lizardmen in our world, you can really go overboard. You can paint them in virtually ANY color you can come up with without them looking unrealistic. Personally, I keep my troops the color scheme GW suggests, only brighter and flashier (yes, itīs possible! Believe me!), but when it comes to my champions and Heroes, thereīs literally endless possibilities... (drools...) These bright colors... need another shot... uuuuuh...

4. The modeeeeeeeels! I just started work on the new Temple Guard, and theyīre... incredible... words donīt do them justice... old Temple Guard looks like joke compared to them... And donīt make me mention the new Stegadon... ooooooh... (drools some more).

5. Adaptability: You have the choice between lots of troops that are very unique and do things no other army can do. Most troops canīt do much, but what they do, they do really well! Basically itīs an army of specialists. Now you choose what you want. You could come up with a Skink list for lightning quick ambushes, for example. But personally I dig those Saurus Warriors for their 2 Attacks, Toughness 4, Ld 8 on Cold Blooded and the ungodly Armor Save. They, as well as the Temple Guard, are incredibly reliable and resilient, and not much can stand in their way. Makes weedy Elves pale in comparison! And unlike cowardly Rats, they donīt turn tail at the slightest opportunity. But as I said, you choose! Also, thereīs the option of having the single best mage (aka magwe) the game has to offer.

So, thereīs really no need to think about it! Go with the army the style inspires you the most! Otherwise, youīll just end up unhappy. Sotek wants you!

orkz222
11-03-2009, 04:51
DE- cool models, very offensive 7th army book, moderate cheap army to start

LM- Big dinosaurs, fierce looking models, new army book, cheap army to start (high pt cost)

Rats- you may want to wait for the rumoured army book to be release 1st before starting, if u like horde armies + crazy dmg dealing powers , skaven the way to go, though it wont go cheap.

I own both skaven (1.5k) and lizardman (2k) armies. Reason why i dont start a DE army was there a DE player in my gaming grp. If not I would start 1 , the models are just too cool to resist.
The 3 armies u mention are good choices.

Axis
11-03-2009, 06:40
whatever you think looks the coolest.

slingersam
11-03-2009, 07:15
First off all these armies have or currently getting a new army book.
Dark Elves can be a cheesy army it only depends on the list though
so no big worries their, but do have a beautiful army range.Ranks in
the top 3 armies. Has great synergies with its own units, just have
to figure out what they are, but it shouldn't be to difficult to figure it
out after a couple of games.

Lizardmen have a very different look to their army, but also have multiple
viable builds (Dinosaurs, Heavy infantry, Skinks heavy, or just heavy magic
with any of the above choices but wont be as set.)

I don't know a lot about Skaven, but my friend plays them a lot, on
the field they do look scary considering how much they out number
you by, but the thing that keeps me calm is that they are very weak
and rely on Combat resolution mostly to win Close Combat. The way
I've seen my friend play's his Skaven list, he kinda plays it a bit
sneaky though, which can get annoying, the army has this kinda hidden
play style to it; if that makes any sence.

GuyLeCheval
11-03-2009, 07:24
SKAVEN!!!

You want to play a unique army? Play skaven. Want to play herohammer? too bad. our heros suck, they're rats. Want to play Deathstars? too bad. we're just rats.

rats we may be, but there are lots of us. and we are sneaky bastards. just when you think you have us, we're behind you. Skaven are rarely straightforeward, and require a lot of practice to get right, but man is it satifying when you beat a bunch of chaos knights with only slaves and clanrats.

Now this list can, and often is abused. if you want 13 power dice, or scads of artillary, go ahead and play dark elves. they do it better. but if you want to outnumber your oppontent 4:1? you want him to look across the board and see rats from table edge to table edge? you want him p*ssing himself when he can figure out where to go or what to attack, because there are just so damn many?

then you need to play skaven. The children of the Horned Rat are a rewarding army, but it aint for everyone.

Foegnasher, master of the skittery horde.

I second this, HOWEVER, it may be better to wait till augustus when the new Skaven are supposed to come out. If you can't wait, I suggest Lizardmen. Yes, DE are better but they quickly get the 'Įheese' label...
DE need also some 'įheesy' magic items to work truly good i.e Prndant of Khaleth, ring thingie...

Lizardmen have very many builds which are competive.

SteelTitan
11-03-2009, 08:49
It very much depends on the play style you want...the 3 armies you listed all have very distinct playing styles.

I have a 2k LM army (currently expanding to 2.5k) but i also want to start Skaven when the new book comes out. I'd love to have this swarm army where losing a few units doesnt mean crap. Killing your own units and the opponent's with equal ease seems like great fun! Doing this with LM and you lose obviously :P

I choose armies based on the 'overall feel' and playstyle.

DE - Swift elite strike force
LM - Slow but hard hitting hammer
SK - A million of wet tissues thrown at you at once (with an occassional brick in between representing warp lightning or something :P)

OldMan
11-03-2009, 08:54
Skaven

An army that truly rewards carefull and consequent game play. And until you gather enough models to make a true horde, you can go Skyre and BLAST THEM BACK TO CATHEY.

squeekenator
11-03-2009, 10:16
Skaven for the absolute win. They may not win as often as the cheese-ridden Dark Elves or fairly balanced lizard-things, but every battle, either win or loss, is so damn stylish you don't care. There's nothing more awesome than frying half your regiment with a poorly-aimed warpfire thrower, or half your army with an unlucky Plague spell. You can fire ratling guns straight into combats, killing a whole unit of slaves and one rank of elves and come out ahead points-wise. The Warp-Lightning Cannon is the most fun unit in the game to use. I must say, though, that Jezzails are far too reliable. I mean, a unit of 6 Jezzails is only going to kill one of its members in a whole game's shooting, that's disgraceful.

Not only can you wipe your own troops off the board and not care, you can also shred your enemy's army with equal ease. Skaven have maxmimum firepower in exchange for unreliability, which means that you'll be cleaning ratfur off the walls often enough, but your weapons can work for you too, and that's when you win.

And that's only Clan Skryre. You also have rat-ninjas, rat ogres, giant rats, crazed religious fanatic rats with poisonous gas-filled flails and not enough eye holes in their robes and SO MANY NORMAL RATS. You outnumber the other person. That's the rule of playing Skaven. You will always outnumber them (at the start, anyway). It's great fun to start running out of deployment zone five minutes after the other player finishes setting up.

Skaven are just the best race in the game.

Ultimate Life Form
11-03-2009, 10:24
You also have rat-ninjas, rat ogres, giant rats, crazed religious fanatic rats with poisonous gas-filled flails and not enough eye holes in their robes

Heck! This is pure GENIUS, man! I canīt stop laughing!

garythewargamer
11-03-2009, 12:49
Okay back to the question that you asked as I pitched the HE vice your three choices.

LM out of the three it is my humble opinion they are the best looking. Their big dinosaurs are trully awesome to look at especially with painting and a little customization. With their skirmishing archers, poison darts they are a force to fear. As stated by Ultimate Life Form their paint job can look purely wonderful.

DE seem fairly straight forward but they need a little finesse to be truly powerful. Shooters, double shot crossbows and upright RBTs can look beautiful painted and a little personalization. The hydra can wreck pure terror in opponents. Being able to hide an assassins placement can keep your opponent guessing, is he with the scouts or is he with another block. They have infantry which can go toe to toe with anyone for one turn until help arrives.

Skaven I have only seen being played once. Everyone says that they are waiting for the new book. I guess I need to check the rumour forum out. That army was not painted well therefore I do not want to base my opinion on that one case.

bottomline is that you have to like the army you choose or you will not play it long. It is all about personnel tastes and likes.

dal9ll
11-03-2009, 23:53
My vote is for Skaven. theyre a truly originial race, plus theyre getting a new Army Book soon!

jason
12-03-2009, 01:15
I'll vote skaven. However, I will disagree a little with everyone who says to wait until the army book comes out. They are such a horde army that I would start now! Of course, limit yourself to the masses (i.e. clanrats). Then, if new and better plastics come out, you already have a bunch painted and can use them as slaves, etc. If you wait, the skaven might overwhelm you.....with painting that is.

garythewargamer
12-03-2009, 01:32
Jason that is a very good idea. It is amazing that with all the surfing I do that is the first time that I have heard that one. Probably because a lot of people already have LM. Therefore all they have to do is wait until the new models come out. Again what a very awesome idea, thanks.

slingersam
12-03-2009, 02:17
I'll vote skaven. However, I will disagree a little with everyone who says to wait until the army book comes out. They are such a horde army that I would start now! Of course, limit yourself to the masses (i.e. clanrats). Then, if new and better plastics come out, you already have a bunch painted and can use them as slaves, etc. If you wait, the skaven might overwhelm you.....with painting that is.

People say wait because you don't know what units will get stronger and which unit will get nerfed. Also you don't really want to buy a whole bunch of old models unless you like how they look already.

jason
12-03-2009, 02:20
Slingersam, I agree don't get special and rares. However, I would be surprised if clanrats and slaves bit the dust. And if they did, I sure would be sorry for Foegnasher! :evilgrin:

mweaver
12-03-2009, 02:32
First recommendation: paint whichever you finally decide looks coolest. (For looks, I like all three of the races you choose.

Next best recommendation: lizard men. You will need to paint relatively fewer models, and they paint up fairly quickly while still looking great once painted (they tend to be less fiddly than DEs and ratskies, but lots of scales and skin is available for some pretty interesting paint schemes). The combination of a smaller force and less time per model at the painting table means you can complete your LM army relatively quickly... and THEN start on skaven or dark elves!

Doominator
12-03-2009, 03:16
You seem to really like lizardmen so perhaps go for them.

Now if you want an army now while waiting for the new skaven, then go for lizzies because you seem to like them far more than Dark Elves. I heard Dark Elves are a bit overpowered(IF im correct but I don't follow this army) whilst Lizardmen are preety balanced but have much left to be desired.

The most thematic is got to be the skaven, so if you like an army that follows its fluff roots well than I would go for skaven.

slingersam
12-03-2009, 05:15
You seem to really like lizardmen so perhaps go for them.
The most thematic is got to be the skaven, so if you like an army that follows its fluff roots well than I would go for skaven.

The only thing with this is that lizardmen fluffy armies can still be viable, like a full skink army, or full stegi army, not all fluffy armies can be competitive. Remember once the skaven book hits the table there will be a group of people who will jump on the new book bandwagon. But overall I think your choice should be between lizardmen and skaven.

mrtn
12-03-2009, 12:04
As others have said I think you should start with the coolest army. IMO that's skaven, but it's your army, not mine.


I'll vote skaven. However, I will disagree a little with everyone who says to wait until the army book comes out. They are such a horde army that I would start now! Of course, limit yourself to the masses (i.e. clanrats). Then, if new and better plastics come out, you already have a bunch painted and can use them as slaves, etc. If you wait, the skaven might overwhelm you.....with painting that is.
I agree in principle, but disagree in practice. ;) The clanrats are rumoured to be replaced with new plastics, so I'd rather start with plague monks, giant rats and ratogres, these are plastic sets that are new and cool.

I recently started skaven (see some of them in my painting diary, link in signature) and that's what I've done, more or less.

jax40kplyr1
12-03-2009, 16:20
Lizzies all the way!
Personally I think they offer the best combination of different styles and unit combinations out there. Dark Elves really seem to be competitive only when you start powergaming them out - otherwise they fall more in the medium categories.
Skaven - wait for the new book! Yes they will continue to be a horde army, but with new plastics due out and there seems to be alot of changes to how they play (especially with weapons teams, magic, characters, unit abilities, etc), I'd wait for it. It definately isn't a cheap army to put together.