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PeG
11-03-2009, 09:19
Played a small game with WE against Lizards. Opponent set up three salamanders together with lots of skinks skirmishing behind them (15-20 skinks).

Set up was like SA= salamander S= skink

SSS
AAA

s s s
s s s s
s s s s
s s s s
s s s s


A couple of turns into the game I wanted to shoot them (obviously). The Lizard player then argued that I could only hit skinks and that I had a -1 modifier due to skirmish (all skinks are of course US1). This made it impossible to kill all skinks before the salamanders were in range and they ended up frying a unit of dryads.

Is this correct? Can salamanders hide in large units of skinks?

I decided to let it go because I was winning anyway. My first turn of shooting nearly wiped out his main unit of saurus warriors when I got really lucky with Hail of doom and damage rolls for the glade guards.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 09:51
I expect the answer to these questions to be in the lizardman book.

Shots at the unit are probably randomised between the different model types. Ask your friend if you can see his book.

The -1 to hit penalty for shooting skirmishers only applies to mansized models, unless the lizardman book says any diffferent no penalty should be appleied (BRB p.67)

If you were using a sniping weapon (liek the hochland long rifle) you would need to be able to see inidividual models to target them, ordinarily though you only need to draw LOS to a unit to be able to inflict casualties on the unit.

Necromancy Black
11-03-2009, 10:10
Hang on, I don't understand?

Did he join the Salamanders to the unit or did he run a whole bunch of skinks around the Salamander unit?

If it was the later that's perectly legal and a very common use for skinks. Skirmishers block LOS completely, you can't see between units so they're great for running in front of units you want to keep alive and let the skinks take the bulk of the shooting. You would then obviously have -1 to hit the skinks.

However, Salamanders can not join or be joined by anything else, and all shooting at the Salamanders unit is randomised without any negative to hit due to skirmishers.

Gazak Blacktoof
11-03-2009, 10:13
Ah yes, maybe I misunderstood. If they are two seperate units then of course you can't shoot one through the other, this is covered under the skirmisher rules. You can shoot over one unit to hit another though (see p.9).

Braad
11-03-2009, 11:52
If you shoot at the salamander pack, the skinks in this pack cannot keep the salamanders safe: you divide shots over the entire unit. Because the sallies are not US1, this unit does not receive a -1 modifier for shooting against it.

However, if he had the sallies with their skink handlers nearly completely surrounded by a normal unit of skinks skirmishers, then indeed, he can screen the salamanders from being shot, and if you then shoot at the skink unit you get -1. However, since these are still two units, a large target or unit on a hill can still spot and pick out the salamander hunting pack within the screen of skinks.

___s s s_______D
____s s s s
b A b_ s s s
__b A b
________________E

In this example, shooter D cannot see the salamanders (A) and their skink handlers (b), and have to shoot at either the skink skirmishers (s) with -1 to shooting or at a completely different target.
However, shooter E can see at least a part of the unit of salamanders (A and b) and can shoot at them, this time without the -1 at shooting.
Exception is when D is either on a hill and s not, or D is a large target so they can see A and b. In this case, he could shoot them.

Its very important to differentiate between normal skinks, and those that belong to the salamander hunting packs. The latter cannot block shots to their own unit.

PeG
11-03-2009, 12:56
All skinks were behind the salamanders during the whole game. No skinks blocking LOS. He claimed the skinks and the salamanders were the same unit and I could only hit skinks with shooting.

If there is a rule how many skinks/handlers can you have for each salamander?

If they screen with skinks as two separate units (not the case in our game) do they block LOS also for the salamanders so they cant shoot?

Nurgling Chieftain
11-03-2009, 13:46
He claimed the skinks and the salamanders were the same unit and I could only hit skinks with shooting.That would be incorrect. Any hits on such units are randomized to see whether they hit skinks or salamanders (1-4, 5-6).


If there is a rule how many skinks/handlers can you have for each salamander?They start with 3 per salamander, and can buy the unit up to 4 per salamander. So, with 3 salamanders, there are 9-12 handlers.


If they screen with skinks as two separate units (not the case in our game) do they block LOS also for the salamanders so they cant shoot?Yes. Typically such a formation formation will disperse once they're in firing range.

Braad
11-03-2009, 14:12
Indeed. 3 skinks for each salamander, and also for each of the other ones... ow right, the razordons. I didn't know you could buy extra, is that new?

On the rest, I can only agree with Nurgling Chieftain. Divide shots between the handlers and salamanders/razordons.

If you doubt a rule, or don't know of its existence, ask your opponent to show it to you.

Spirit
11-03-2009, 14:19
The Unit
Salamander packs are bought in packs of 4, 1x salamander and 3x skinks: 75 points

You may buy ONE extra handler for the unit, per salamander, at +5 points.

So in this instance the MAXIMUM skinks is 12, 3+1 per salamander.

Skirmishing
The whole unit counts as a skirmishing unit, as they all hae the skirmishing rule. However it seems they do not benefit from -1 to hit.

Shooting
Hits against the unit are randomised as per the salamander rules:

"Missile hits and impact hits are randomised as follows: roll a d6, 1-4 hits a salamander, 5-6 hits a handler."


Your friend was cheating, regardless of how he sets the unit up, its a skirmishing unit so you randomise ALL hits

PeG
11-03-2009, 14:53
Thanks, hopefully it was just a new army syndrome that he doesnt fully know the rules for his army yet.