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King Vyper
11-03-2009, 17:58
As of March 5th, Rob Broom was let go of as head of Warhammer Historical Wargame.

Warhammer Historical War Games are now going to be part of....

You guys are going to love this....

Forge World

There are a lot WAB players who are going to hate this.

Lord Malorne
11-03-2009, 18:02
You mean a company the loves fanasy will be merged with one that loves 40k and is bitter towards fantasy...

That will work :rolleyes:.

King Vyper
11-03-2009, 18:06
You mean a company the loves fantasy will be merged with one that loves 40k and is bitter towards fantasy...

That will work :rolleyes:.

Even Better, It is not even Fantasy, it is historicals!

This is going to include, Warhammer Ancients, Warmaster Ancients, ECW, Old West, Trafalgar, and Great War! They have the 2nd Edition of Warhammer Ancients ready to go and hundreds of WAB Players waiting for it and we may never get to see it now.

Lord Malorne
11-03-2009, 18:08
My mistake.

King Vyper
11-03-2009, 18:12
Here is the link of the post by Rob Broom himself

http://www.frothersunite.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18956

zedeyejoe
11-03-2009, 19:10
Well its an email that he sent to someone that they then posted. Naughty in my book but yep some of us knew last week and kept our mouths shut.

Warhammer Historical are also cancelling their May event at the Warhammer World but other gamers involved are trying to keep it going. We will know on Friday if Warhammer World are still prepared to host an event which is technically no longer a Warhammer event.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 20:21
"Major" news? They've made one guy redundant. Weren't most of the books written by Rick Priestley or freelancers, and produced by Black Library anyway?

Forge World is an interesting decision. The Imperial Armour books are clearly intended to evoke coffee table-style military history books, so I can't see the production values dropping. If anything they'll improve. And 90% of everything they make is a rip-off of a WWI or WWII tank. I wonder if they'll be (88 mm) gunning for Flames of War.

Col.Gravis
11-03-2009, 20:27
Well FW certainly makes a degree of sense, they have the capacity to produce models and rules from their own direction, and it leaves the core of the business to focus on the core games.

King Vyper
11-03-2009, 20:28
"Major" news? They've made one guy redundant. Weren't most of the books written by Rick Priestley or freelancers, and produced by Black Library anyway?

Forge World is an interesting decision. The Imperial Armour books are clearly intended to evoke coffee table-style military history books, so I can't see the production values dropping. If anything they'll improve. And 90% of everything they make is a rip-off of a WWI or WWII tank. I wonder if they'll be (88 mm) gunning for Flames of War.

That one guy was the heart and soul behind WHW. He had worked hard to build up the WAB and other WHW communities.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 20:38
Sure, major WHW news I could understand. But GW? They probably make more money off Dark Eldar.

King Vyper
11-03-2009, 20:45
Sure, major WHW news I could understand. But GW? They probably make more money off Dark Eldar.

Forge World and WHW are both part of GW, So I thought technically it is GW news.

Wintertooth
11-03-2009, 21:19
Minor GW News

:D

Sad that he's lost his job, but I expect the historical community is big enough to stand on its own feet, no doubt owed in part to his efforts. I doubt it's the last he'll have to do with the wargaming community whoever pays his salary anyway. And there's nothing in there to suggest they're canning the historical line. Why bother transferring it anywhere if that's what they want to do?

zedeyejoe
11-03-2009, 21:50
I doubt it's the last he'll have to do with the wargaming community whoever pays his salary anyway.

He has his own miniatures business, Scarab Miniatures.

EldarWolf
13-03-2009, 15:23
Perhaps the odd bit of scenery or figure for my wild west games?
Multi-part cowboy/inquisitor model even?

Pistols At Dawn
13-03-2009, 16:33
Sucks for Mr Broom.

I also think there is a zero-point-nada chance of Forge World doing historical models. Why would they when there's umpteen other companies covering the same ground at prices that would be almost certainly be cheaper than FW.

I can't see how there is that much money in Warhammer Historical, they 'only' produce the books (and very fine books they are too) not models. I hope this doesn't affect the current release schedule, as I'm really looking forward to Over the Top (the WW1 supplement).

zedeyejoe
13-03-2009, 17:43
Sucks for Mr Broom.

It does indeed and for all the other thousands currently losing their jobs. Luckily Mr Broom has a business to go to.

gorgon
13-03-2009, 17:45
The Imperial Armour books are clearly intended to evoke coffee table-style military history books, so I can't see the production values dropping. If anything they'll improve.

How about the editing?

Griefbringer
13-03-2009, 20:50
Multi-part cowboy/inquisitor model even?

How many skulls do you want in your cowboy? :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull: :skull:

Laser guided fanatic
13-03-2009, 21:58
What on earth is WAB?

Jedi152
13-03-2009, 22:08
Warhammer Ancient Battles, the little known historical game.

It's WHW i'm still trying to work out.

MacVurrich
13-03-2009, 22:26
Warhammer Ancient Battles, the little known historical game.

It's WHW i'm still trying to work out.

usually its Warhammer World but in this case it's most likely
Warhammer Historical Wargame.

and didn't he say that he was freelancing on The letters posted on TMP and TGN ?

zedeyejoe
13-03-2009, 22:58
I do Warhammer Historicals as WHH.

Crazy Harborc
14-03-2009, 01:10
Darn shame in my book. I had the firm impression that the man was doing a good and positive job at the helm.:mad:

Is there a link for Mr. Broom's companie's website?

CapitanGuinea
14-03-2009, 01:26
this is another little step to hell, for GW.

And from now on, I wish them to run...
After the death of specialist games, this is a clear act of enshadowing of the most credible game system to protect the core ones...

blast... :C

Gazak Blacktoof
14-03-2009, 01:39
Is there a link for Mr. Broom's companie's website?

Google-Fu (http://scarabminiatures.com/)

They're based in Nottingham so I'm guessing this is the company.

zedeyejoe
14-03-2009, 09:37
I had the firm impression that the man was doing a good and positive job at the helm

I promise you there are other impressions out there.

Now just think of this scenerio, you have an employee producing rule sets and that employee sets up his own business selling miniatures for some of those rules. So now he has an incentive to run with certain rules over and above the rest. Not saying it could happen of course just that it could have happened.

thinkerman
15-03-2009, 11:43
Its a real shame Rob has gone - yet another good emp of GW bites the dust like so many others.

On the upside though if forgeworld are doing the WAB stuff it may bring alot to the historical wargaming community.

We could see books like the Imperial Armour books for each time period and expansions for them. Those then books combined with releases for each, resin troops, vehicles, scenery - i for one will look forward to WW1 tanks being produced by forgeworld along with Artillery.

I wouldnt be surprised mind you if half the forgeworld guys in there spare time have stuff already to go which they have scuplted say over a few weekends for whenever in history.

Overall its a shame again to loose Rob but what we might gain could be huge - Forgeworld though, please hire Rob, hes done some amazing work!

answer_is_42
15-03-2009, 15:46
We could see books like the Imperial Armour books for each time period and expansions for them. Those then books combined with releases for each, resin troops, vehicles, scenery - i for one will look forward to WW1 tanks being produced by forgeworld along with Artillery.


I don't think this is ever going to happen. Who the hell would buy such models?

Lets hope this move has little or no effect. WHW is the best part of GW, in my opinion.

thinkerman
15-03-2009, 17:55
I don't think this is ever going to happen. Who the hell would buy such models?.

Er.......... try the massive historical wargaming society out there - everthing from ancients and napoleonic to modern times.

zedeyejoe
15-03-2009, 20:25
Problem is there are lots of businesses already providing these products.


Lets hope this move has little or no effect.

I think that has to be a fond dream. The dedicated manager of WHH has left the room, so WHH is just going to be a part time job for someone.

Various people have chatted to me about this, views vary from almost the same to my worst case view, sell what they have and then not bother with any new stuff. But the future is a distant land.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 00:14
Will it make a huge difference to those who play WHH if no more books are forthcoming? GW doesn't do historical models and if you've already got the rules there's not much to worry about.

Crazy Harborc
16-03-2009, 02:35
WAB was/is a good system of rules and suppliments. It would be nicew to have some of the glitchs corrected. It would be nice to have more choices of armies, etc.

There are other sets of rules out there. My long time, old fart, regular opponents and I have found several sets of rules we are using to add variety to our hobby of wargaming.

zedeyejoe
16-03-2009, 09:47
There are a couple of army books I would like to see, Imperial Roman and Successors for example.

Removing some of the jokes in army lists, Vikings with crossbowmen armed with 2H axes for example, would be nice.

freddythebig
16-03-2009, 21:40
Will it make a huge difference to those who play WHH if no more books are forthcoming? GW doesn't do historical models and if you've already got the rules there's not much to worry about.

This strikes me as like saying

'would it make any difference to WH40k players if no more books were forthcoming'.

What if GW were to concentrate on miniatures and decide not to produce any more codexes (codeces/codeci?) or army books.
After all, we have already got the rules.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 21:54
First of all it was a question, the tone of your post seems unnecessarily defencive, but I may simply be reading more into the post than the content deserves.

Anyway, to explain my question, my impression is that the WHH rules are a fairly complete system and as such they don't suffer from the inconsistencies and problems that the evolving core rules produce in WHFB and 40K.

Additionally, I'm sure there are a metric ton of alternative historical rule sets available. Its not quite the same if you want to use space marines, necrons and eldar.

Finally, I can't say it would bother me if GW did stop publishing rules for their WHFB and 40K games. My gaming group doesn't use the 40K rules that GW produces and I'm hoping to do updates for the core rules and army books for WHFB too.

Arador
16-03-2009, 22:36
Problem is there are lots of businesses already providing these products.

I think that has to be a fond dream. The dedicated manager of WHH has left the room, so WHH is just going to be a part time job for someone.

Various people have chatted to me about this, views vary from almost the same to my worst case view, sell what they have and then not bother with any new stuff. But the future is a distant land.

On the plus side, there will eventually be new rulesets published for every era and theater convered by WHW products. It's almost an inevitability, considering the historical wargaming community.

silence
16-03-2009, 22:43
I wish Rob the best of luck in the future, and hopefully Scarab miniatures will continue to do well as now he can concentrate fully on it now.

As to forge world. I'd be very surprised if Forge World chose to make any figures for WAB or Great War as this may encourage more people to take up historical wargaming, which is probably a bad thing for GW. Books wise, I'm really not sure what to think about this...

freddythebig
16-03-2009, 22:44
My apologies if I came across as overly defensive.
It was just a response to what I saw as yourself being dismissive of a set of rules that I enjoy.
To clarify, WAB is a good set of rules but one that does have some issues of its own. There was a much anticipated V2 in the pipeline, the status of which I am uncertain of with this latest news.
Also,the rules themselves whilst containing a couple of basic lists are of little use without the supplementary books covering the various historical periods, all of which add to the game.
If the situation does in fact become one of fewer or no books in the future, I for one will be the sadder for it.

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 23:06
Thanks for clearing that up. I've not played WAB, my impression about the game's completeness was obviously incorrect.

Fingers crossed you get your V2 rules.

zedeyejoe
17-03-2009, 00:00
Anyway, to explain my question, my impression is that the WHH rules are a fairly complete system and as such they don't suffer from the inconsistencies and problems that the evolving core rules produce in WHFB and 40K.

Hell no. WAB supplements are all over the place. Points values for the same troop type varies between different supplements as list writers are allowed to tweak points costs to encourage the use of some troops and discourage others in particular armies. They have also suffered with 'special rule' creep. In the beginning an army would have a maximum of 4 special rules, now they can have 10-12. Players have even had to develop their own composition system (ABC) to balance the strong/average and weak armies. These are some of the reasons that I am not a fan of Mr Brooms stewardship of WAB.

rich1231
22-03-2009, 13:59
Hmm WH pushed into FW, the resin part of the group...

Historical wargaming recently proven to be a great place to make money by Battlefront and their WW2 game.. oh look made of resins. BF's clear intention to make games in other settings.

GW Im sure are always keeping an eye on whether there is money to be made for them in the "other" market.

Zephro
24-03-2009, 02:25
*groan* more reasons to blacklist GW. Oh well. poor Rob :(

Also I preferred the sheltered thread in Historical damn it! Where people knew he was and it wasn't considered "minor" bah!

Also FW will NEVER release models for historical. It's economically not viable as there are so many competitors out there, doing every single period you can imagine and a damn sight cheaper than FW. I'm just worried they will hamstring the community support and ramp up book prices or god forbid stop releasing anything. The new Trafalgar book was magnificent.

yabbadabba
24-03-2009, 08:05
*groan* more reasons to blacklist GW. Oh well. poor Rob :(

Also I preferred the sheltered thread in Historical damn it! Where people knew he was and it wasn't considered "minor" bah!

:wtf:. Thanks for making us a part of your community :rolleyes:

Huw_Dawson
24-03-2009, 10:28
If it gives FW the lease in the far future (no pun intended ;)) to manufacture historical minatures, I'm all for it. Best of luck for Broom with his future endevours mind, I always had a strong respect for WAB.

- Huw

rich1231
24-03-2009, 11:40
Battlefront might disagree. I'm not in anyway suggesting they will. But BF have proved that a single company can dominate Historical gaming.


*groan* more reasons to blacklist GW. Oh well. poor Rob :(

Also I preferred the sheltered thread in Historical damn it! Where people knew he was and it wasn't considered "minor" bah!

Also FW will NEVER release models for historical. It's economically not viable as there are so many competitors out there, doing every single period you can imagine and a damn sight cheaper than FW. I'm just worried they will hamstring the community support and ramp up book prices or god forbid stop releasing anything. The new Trafalgar book was magnificent.

yabbadabba
24-03-2009, 12:35
Not really Rich. It's only dominated by its marketing strategy, making it appear more dominant than it is. They have copied the GW model well. However shows like Salute et al show that there is still plenty of competition in all the popular wargames eras. I know plenty of people with a FoW army, but few who have more or who regularly play. I can probably get a game of Rapid Fire more successfully.

The Rogue Trader
24-03-2009, 14:06
Yeah I have to agree. FoW has been a breath of fresh air in the market but not earth shattering. The historical market is very resistant to change. The last real revolution of note was the launch of the DBx rulesets in 1990.

I really hope WAB is passed across to FFG. If WAB 2.0 is brought out along with Divine Wind, Legion (the first ever promised supplement!) and those Classical Greeks probably need a book as well then everything eould be dandy.

King Vyper
24-03-2009, 15:48
Fields of Glory from Osprey has pretty much wiped out the DMx Group of rules sets. It has quickly become the defacto ancients rules for 15mm.

zedeyejoe
24-03-2009, 16:16
I have a keen long term interest in ancients in various sizes over the 38 years I have been playing. I can assure you that despite the bold statement above, Field of Glory (FoG) has not become the de facto set of rules for 15mm. Some like it, some don't. I knew a store that was selling the rules, of those that bought them about half stuck with them, the other half went on to do something else.

Zephro
24-03-2009, 17:07
Everyone in my club plays 15mm WW2 but none of them play FoW or buy their mini's from them.

static grass
24-03-2009, 20:01
If it gives FW the lease in the far future (no pun intended ;)) to manufacture historical minatures, I'm all for it.



In the grimdark future of WAB all there is tanks, lots of tanks. Some tanks have skulls, some spikes, it is grimdark tanks.

Seriously though, is anyone going to put a gun to their heads and get them to make minis? Where are the tanks?

yabbadabba
24-03-2009, 20:31
I knew a store that was selling the rules, of those that bought them about half stuck with them, the other half went on to do something else.

And that is wargames. No matter how good your rules are, some people will always prefer others.

zedeyejoe
24-03-2009, 21:57
But getting back on track a bit. I heard a whisper today that coming under Forgeworld will be good for WHH, with some of the old guys coming back in to gee things up a bit.

Samuell
25-03-2009, 01:44
If WHWG could present some realistic models with tons of details, instead of those cartoony lumps, the game might increase in popularity. With FW in charge the game might actually evolve in that direction. So I say great move, I'll be keeping an eye on it from now on.

Zephro
25-03-2009, 15:11
Ok even I can't work out what WHWG is.

Hellfury
25-03-2009, 15:51
Well, this news makes me understand why FW are now trying to hire new sculptors.

There are indeed MANY other companies who produce models for historical games. But as a person who is on the fringe of the historical wargaming society, I find that many models available from the majority of companies are pretty damn ugly at the worst of times, and not very good looking at the best of times.

As much as everyone whines about FW prices, everyone still loves their sculpts. People love them enough to buy them, so I can see FW producing historical models to one degree or another. It gives them broader appeal to the much larger historical community out there who do not deign to play 40k/WHFB.

I can tell you that I would love to buy some FW sculpted models for use in Legends of the High Seas. The models I have are passable, but not anything I really covet.

Zephro
25-03-2009, 15:54
FW are not going to be making historical miniatures. FW are expensive compared to GW which are painfully expensive when compared to, very good, historical sculpts. FW would just be throwing cash away.

Hellfury
25-03-2009, 16:05
FW are not going to be making historical miniatures. FW are expensive compared to GW which are painfully expensive when compared to, very good, historical sculpts. FW would just be throwing cash away.

Yeah, they said the exact same thing in the mid nineties when FW was initially created and their first sculpt was the IG Salamander.

Everything they create is to test the waters to some degree or another to see if there is interest enough to buy them.

I do beleive it is within the realm of possibility that we could see FW sculpts for warhammer historicals of some type or another. A very good possibility even. if a company can produce a billion different tank variants for IG players, they can definitely produce models for the games that they themselves distribute.

As for expense, again there is always someone willing to buy your models. If they can sculpt a manta that probably sells (just a guess) maybe less than 100 models (very generous estimate in my book) then they can make quite a bit more money from finely sculpted models that aren't covered in other areas. One could argue that all areas are already covered by the myriad other companies out there, but I guarantee you that they wouldn't have the same quality.

Case in point: My LotHS models. the 10 models I have for Legends of the High Seas cost me about $65. All metal and from various manufacturers (Artizan, Foundry, Reaper, etc.). I really tried to get the best sculpts I could and I am still not satisfied with them as much as I would like.

People like me would pay the extra bucks to have sculpts they did like. Something FW is MORE than aware of.


I'm just worried they will hamstring the community support and ramp up book prices or god forbid stop releasing anything. The new Trafalgar book was magnificent.
However, I do share in your worries in this. FW books are not the easiest nor the cheapest to acquire. Warhammer historical books are already not the cheapest (Trafalgar $38 softback *gulp*) but at least they are fairly easy to come by.

It could be argued that with FW, the production quality could go up, but I think the production quality is already very very good. As you said, Trafalgar is an amazing book. I hope it is not the last of them.

Zephro
25-03-2009, 16:18
Legends of the High Seas maybe. As that's a bit more small scale like Necromunda or Mordheim right? And yeah I don't think it's been well supported.

However.
Most ancient/medieval armies have great sculpts.
Most gunpowder ones do.
Most WW2 ones do.
Trafalgar definitely already has them out there.

I'm talking very high quality sculpts.

WW1 is a possible area to exploit. I guess, though those gaps are getting rapidly filled in by other companies.

Also collecting for a historical period is often a very different business to what GW collectors are used to. As you can have pretty much an army of almost identical models in identical poses, after all soldiers have drill and the same issued equipment. So they can't even really do what FW do which is picking out elite units or niche units and so on.

On average for my 28mm metal models I pay 1-1.20 for some great sculpts. Compare that to nearly 4 per model for the Death Korp? Even if FW did have better sculpts, which I'd contest, they won't be worth my army being 4 times more expensive.

The new plastics make it even more ridiculous, my Perry Napoleonic French cost around 36p per model.

FW can charge what they do because GW has such a large market and protected intellectual property. So they can just make really expensive specialist stuff you can't get anywhere else.

They might be able to do cowboys/pirates that kind of thing though. Where each model needs alot of character. But most historical armies are a matter of mass collection.

EDIT: $38 for trafalgar? It cost me 20. The exchange rate is no way near that high. Ouch. And yeah I can't even afford 40 on a book to get the Tau BFG or Epic rules. Also I've heard FW books are quite badly proof read, not something I've noticed with WHH

Pokpoko
25-03-2009, 18:03
I seriously doubt FW historical would sell well. Historical gamers(in my limited observations) are usually very stingy compared to primarily fantasy/SF gamers,so there's no chance in hell most of them will shell out the kind of money needed for whole armies from FW-they lack the indoctrination from previous GW gaming.

Zephro
25-03-2009, 18:48
I prefer "know the value of their money" or "has better things to spend it on" to stingy. ;)

I'm definitely not paying 40 quid for 10 toy soldiers at the end of the day.

zedeyejoe
25-03-2009, 18:53
Let us not forget that there are many ex-GW employees out there making historical figures. Metals run about 1.20 for a foot figure, plastics perhaps 80p.

Hellfury
26-03-2009, 16:42
Legends of the High Seas maybe. As that's a bit more small scale like Necromunda or Mordheim right? And yeah I don't think it's been well supported.

Indeed, that's more or less what I meant. Models for skirmish games where you have less than 20-30 models and want a higher quality.

LotHS/LotOW/etc.

I doubt as well that they would get into such games with large formations as napoleonics either. But then again, if they do what they did with the Death Korps of Kreig mass formation lines used for trench warfare or to fill a gorgon, it may be possible. LINK (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/dkkgorginf.htm)

Black scorpion makes some really amazing sculpts for LotHS, but the scale is a bugbear of mine. 25-28 or even 30mm looks ok amongst each other, but the 32 mm black scorpion sculpts tower over other models and that little bit really is noticeable.

Zephro
26-03-2009, 17:12
Ah ok gotya.

Ooo another thing that they might get away with is doing one off miniatures of celebrities. Wellington, Chinese Gordon etc. Doing a really fantastic sculpt of them might actually attract a premium.

I can't see it for average infantry sloggers though.