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GeneralDisaster
12-03-2009, 08:02
In Warhammer 40,000 it's the smurfs with Calgar and his amazing pwn3g3 fists. What, in Warhammer, is the most hated army?

Kornath
12-03-2009, 08:07
Daemon army with Kairos Fateweavers amazing flying circus! Or the nurgle list of b-b-bonuses!

snurl
12-03-2009, 08:08
Probably demons or Dwarf gunlines.

Necromancy Black
12-03-2009, 08:21
SAD.

Only Skaven player at out club alwasy plays SAD, hate it so much.

Godfiend
12-03-2009, 09:50
I'd say Daemons are hated the most outright, as anyone playing any sort of Daemons might get some dirty looks. Otherwise, it'll depend on your list. Any gunline list is unpopular, and any army that is geared to take advantage of the cheese is similarly going to be dislike. A all-mounted WoC list with Slaanesh on 3 or 4 Marauder horsemen and 4 units of Knights is not going to get you any friends.

Fenrir
12-03-2009, 10:22
Daemons are the most moaned about on forums, but Thorek is pretty bad to play against.

fubukii
12-03-2009, 10:58
ill say thorek armies.

Aurellis
12-03-2009, 11:05
Bloodthirster Daemon armies or a Thorek gunline.

Lord Khabal
12-03-2009, 11:20
Kairos flying circus. I play a knights WOC by the away and I still get pwned pretty bad by Kairos and dwarfy gunlines. wonder why? lol!

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 12:42
Daemons are the most moaned about on forums, but Thorek is pretty bad to play against.

I have never actually lost a game to Thorek, mostly I think because the type of person that uses him is a horrible player and is just relying on him to make up for that.

Demons are probably the most hated army right now and rightly so. Not just the Kairos flying circus , but the Nugle list of not taking wounds, the Slaneesh -3-5 leadership army or the Tzeench gunline. They are all broken and not fun to play against if the person using them has the slightest idea of what he's doing.

Mr Uber
12-03-2009, 12:45
Now it seems to be deamons a year ago it was brets before that it was SAD.

People seem to have a very short memory because deamons have been as hard as nails for a very long time.

Don't hate the game hate the players who abuse the game.

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 12:52
Now it seems to be deamons a year ago it was brets before that it was SAD.

People seem to have a very short memory because deamons have been as hard as nails for a very long time.

Don't hate the game hate the players who abuse the game.

Demons are inherently poorly designed and overpowered so I can't blame players too much for using the really obviously broken stuff in that book.

Conotor
12-03-2009, 12:58
Gunlines!!!!!!!!!!!!

zak
12-03-2009, 13:02
The problem with deamons is that you don't even have to try to build a hard list. It just happens! That why deamons are inherently disliked.

Sifal
12-03-2009, 13:23
and any army that is geared to take advantage of the cheese is similarly going to be dislike.

I like this statement a lot. why should we vilify players just becasue they play DoC, DE or VC when the real point is that very few people will inherintly hate the army they just hate some of the lists that can be created with them. I don't mind playing against DoC etc so long as, like Godfiend sagely wrote, they aren't specifically geared to be an all wins/no fun army. Obviously in GT it's all fair. It really annoys me when people say VC etc are broken when lots of the armies that are fielded from the VC etc list just aren't.

W0lf
12-03-2009, 13:35
Daemons + Gunline.

Neither are fun.

As for daemons being balanced? They are inheiritently broken. See sig for more details.

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 13:43
Daemons + Gunline.

Neither are fun.

As for daemons being balanced? They are inheiritently broken. See sig for more details.

Pretty much. People talk about playing "broken demon lists" as if it was a generally balanced book that had a few overpowered tricks that were exploited like Vampire Counts and Dark Elves. Almost everything about that book with a few exceptions like Demonettes is over the top (and you are under no obligation to use the few things that are merely good and not super great) so you have to go out of your way to make it to a power level comparable to other armies and at that point it's just stupid.

I feel bad for long time demon players that suddenly have an army no one wants to play against (I'm a long time VC player and I have to stop myself now from taking certain things in order to not make the game really un-fun for my opponent and that sucks), but 90% of the demon players I see picked it up so they could have easy win mode so those sorts of people don't really care about balance. To be fair newbie VC and Dark Elf players are pretty similar...

Desert Rain
12-03-2009, 14:27
Gunlines and most daemon builds.

Fenrir
12-03-2009, 14:35
I feel bad for long time demon players that suddenly have an army no one wants to play against (I'm a long time VC player and I have to stop myself now from taking certain things in order to not make the game really un-fun for my opponent and that sucks), but 90% of the demon players I see picked it up so they could have easy win mode so those sorts of people don't really care about balance. To be fair newbie VC and Dark Elf players are pretty similar...

Tell me about it. You can't even make an attempt to be moderate or discuss the army before getting tarred with the "powergamer" brush. As far as most people are concerned it's "Daemons = Broken/overpowered" before even seeing my army. Those who have played me before, know that I'm quite self restrictive with the army and am a good game - so have no problems with facing my army.

Whats the bet this post has someone attacking it because I'm a daemon player? Regardless of the amount of time I've played them (the army book changed around me twice). I now play daemons, therefore I am a crap gamer who only uses them to try and win.

At least, thats the way the web "community" has chosen to paint people.

Sometimes, I do wonder why I don't just add some extra units to my army - already marked as a powergamer, why not act as one? Not that I would, mind you.

Ward.
12-03-2009, 15:20
why not act as one?

Because no one would play you?


OP: I think it's easily daemons, if not for the complete face sanding playing against them can be but for the change in fluff they brought with them (I don't particularly mind it personally).

Fenrir
12-03-2009, 15:42
Because no one would play you?


OP: I think it's easily daemons, if not for the complete face sanding playing against them can be but for the change in fluff they brought with them (I don't particularly mind it personally).

Any of my regular opponents would still play me - I'm not a powergamer and don't have the inclination towards such wastes of time.

What I was expressing is the thought that Daemon players being constantly tagged as filthmongers, but using a moderate army (as far as the book will allow) might as well pull out the filth for use - you are already going to take a slagging for it, even if you try to avoid using a power list.

Anyway - enough from me on this matter, before this thread turns into another one of the million "bleedin' daemon armies" threads out there.

dingareth
12-03-2009, 15:43
I'd have to say that if they ever made an army that's Immune to Psych, has a 5+ Ward Save, can mix and match between Gods, and is horribly undercosted, than I would hate that army.

But since everyone knows that Demons can't exist outside 40k, I'll have to go with Clan Eshin.

Lord Malorne
12-03-2009, 15:50
Thorek Gunline, which is a shame as the guy who plays it is top notch.

(Daemons are the mosted hated and rightly so)

GuyLeCheval
12-03-2009, 15:53
I'd have to say that if they ever made an army that's Immune to Psych, has a 5+ Ward Save, can mix and match between Gods, and is horribly undercosted, than I would hate that army.

But since everyone knows that Demons can't exist outside 40k, I'll have to go with Clan Eshin.

Seriously perfect.

Godgolden
12-03-2009, 16:17
Personally i hate Wood Elves, Daemons are hard and .. really hard but at least i can get me some melee action, stupid wood elves and their stupid challenging treeman anicient with stupid netlings.

rargh!

Stuffburger
12-03-2009, 16:29
About a week or two back there was a spree of hate for unpainted and proxy armies, figured I'd throw that into the mix.

garythewargamer
12-03-2009, 16:32
I do not like daemon flamers, the ring that the DE have and wood elf mages hiding in the forest throwing magic. WE mages hiding in the forest throwing magic. Guess I really do not like the WE mages hiding in the woods.

jax40kplyr1
12-03-2009, 17:14
I would have to say the deathstar VC mounted list. Minimum zombie core choices, all black knights with regen banner on wight lord and tooled up VC Lord, other vamps running around spamming IoN and Dance , with some raised zombies at WS6 charging as soon as they are raised from helm of commandment. Nothing as annoying as 14 or more powerdice.

Kelderaith
12-03-2009, 18:56
Deathstar in general more than a particular army. Everyone use a big unit as a army centerpiece, and there is nothing wrong with that, but when that centerpiece cost over 1200 pts on a 2000 pts battle, it's just plain boring as the game turn out to "how can I kill/evade that unit" instead of truly playing the game.

mithrandir
12-03-2009, 19:05
I'm surprised VC did not get many mentions:eek: That damn regeneration banner ( via a wight lord BSB, mtd of course ) in a unit of Grave Guard with great weapon killing blow capability and a VC Lord is very nasty, especially with the help of a unit of KoBK rolling up your flank and Cairn Wraiths - say a half dozen or so on the other side.... wicked. Now, daemons are filthy - the change in the instability rule really benefited them and the standardized 5+ ward save but the new Lizardman army will help curb some of the DoC & VC power gamers a bit as the lizzies are just made for destroying those particular armies. A Thorek dwarven gunline is a tough nut to crack, I will admit, but can be dealt with, and on occassion there is the ever present possibility that the anvil will go bye bye on a roll of the dice - a few bad ones actually. Skaven ( SAD ), thats 'shooty army of death', for those not in the know is also a fan favorite amongst gaming communities, you are pitted up against at least two units of say 9, str.6 AP jezzail units + 2 warpcannons, and no less than three ratling gun attachments on clan rat units - knights you have, say you? Up in a warpstone puff of smoke, say I - squeeek.
Soon, vey soon, you will hear complaints about DE Monster Mash armies & of course the eventual Steggie Stomp armies of the LZM ( engine of the gods in multiples - uuugh! )

OldMaster
12-03-2009, 19:13
In Warhammer 40,000 it's the smurfs with Calgar and his amazing pwn3g3 fists. What, in Warhammer, is the most hated army?

Seriously?
I kinda always got an impression it was the Tau. I haven't seen a single positive post concerning the Tau, coming from a non-Tau player. Everyone just wants them to die or something :eyebrows:



Well, like said, they're called Deamons. It's about the only army about which I know some people start rolling eyes and sighing and facepalming by a mere mention of it.

CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 19:15
I'm surprised VC did not get many mentions:eek: That damn regeneration banner ( via a wight lord BSB, mtd of course ) in a unit of Grave Guard with great weapon killing blow capability and a VC Lord is very nasty, especially with the help of a unit of KoBK rolling up your flank and Cairn Wraiths - say a half dozen or so on the other side.... wicked. Now, daemons are filthy - the change in the instability rule really benefited them and the standardized 5+ ward save but the new Lizardman army will help curb some of the DoC & VC power gamers a bit as the lizzies are just made for destroying those particular armies. A Thorek dwarven gunline is a tough nut to crack, I will admit, but can be dealt with, and on occassion there is the ever present possibility that the anvil will go bye bye on a roll of the dice - a few bad ones actually. Skaven ( SAD ), thats 'shooty army of death', for those not in the know is also a fan favorite amongst gaming communities, you are pitted up against at least two units of say 9, str.6 AP jezzail units + 2 warpcannons, and no less than three ratling gun attachments on clan rat units - knights you have, say you? Up in a warpstone puff of smoke, say I - squeeek.
Soon, vey soon, you will hear complaints about DE Monster Mash armies & of course the eventual Steggie Stomp armies of the LZM ( engine of the gods in multiples - uuugh! )

VC deathstar lists have many counters, Daemons not so much, especially Daemon lists where serious thought has been put into them. Wraiths, GG Deathstars and the such are very very vulnerable to EoTG-BA, lore of light etc. Wraiths in particular vs. Shooty Skaven, Tree Spirits etc etc.

Daemons are just baseline rock solid. Stat wise, special effect wise etc they are bricks of adamantium compared to everyone else. I dont think a serious gunline would stand a chance vs. a tooled up DoC list played by equally solid players.

GeneralDisaster
12-03-2009, 19:55
Seriously?
I kinda always got an impression it was the Tau. I haven't seen a single positive post concerning the Tau, coming from a non-Tau player. Everyone just wants them to die or something :eyebrows:



Well, like said, they're called Deamons. It's about the only army about which I know some people start rolling eyes and sighing and facepalming by a mere mention of it.

Well, I don't hate them because:

a. the BG is...rubbish. Shadowsun? What kind of a name is that?
b. The Tau players nearby are, frankly, crap.

But on the subject of Warhammer, the pattern of 'Daemons' seems to be emerging, due to a +5 ward save. Anything else people hate about them?

Vestigialante
12-03-2009, 21:08
I'm a daemon player myself, having come to fantasy due to the dual-nature of my now favorite 40k force.

Upon playing them in fantasy however, I find that they are inherently powerful. Not just because of flamers, or cheesy SC's, but mostly due to how they break fundamental rules and standard limitations of the game.

-Ward saves are unmodified by opponent strength, and are just superior to armor saves, period. To have them on all your troops, with no limitations (such as those for tree spirits) creates and incredibly lop-sided advantage.
-Great-weapon strength core troops, with no always strikes last, and elven movement speed. These guys are just murder on most comparable core troops, especially if given hatred. This leads to my next point.
-Special rules/stats handed out like candy. Killing blow, hatred, S5, MV5. Armor piercing, ASF, 2A, MV6. Poison Attacks, Regen, T4. Spellcasting ability, 4+ ward saves. Everything in the daemon army is loaded with effectiveness, and is just OTT with a herald in its ranks. All of those fear causing as well.

With their point cost, I'd expect them to be a very elite force, which they are. I just think it was a little overboard. I'm disappointed that one of my favorite, and most well-developed (fluff-wise) forces is just too powerful for casual play. It feels like a horrible waste, really.

Laughingmonk
12-03-2009, 21:13
But on the subject of Warhammer, the pattern of 'Daemons' seems to be emerging, due to a +5 ward save. Anything else people hate about them?

The ward save is annoying yes, but I hate them for the way they treat their magic items/standards.

The are ultra-powerful, undercosted, indestructible (due to being a 'gift' ) and most of all, spammable.

I mean, seriously, if I made a thread saying that empire should get a cheap banner that gave a -2 leadership debuff within 12 inches, captains could all take an ability wherein you have to charge them or flee, Steam tanks could regenerate and had MR3, should get battle wizards for core, and empire state troops should all cause fear, you'd all look at me like I was on crack. :wtf:

But that is pretty much how they treated demons, IMO.

Godfiend
12-03-2009, 21:46
I mean, seriously, if I made a thread saying that empire should get a cheap banner that gave a -2 leadership debuff within 12 inches, captains could all take an ability wherein you have to charge them or flee, Steam tanks could regenerate and had MR3, should get battle wizards for core, and empire state troops should all cause fear, you'd all look at me like I was on crack. :wtf:

Well, we also treat the Daemon auther like he's on crack, so it's fair. :)

Daemons are inherently powerful. Everyone else can run a fair list; my friend plays VC and I give him crap all the time for it, but his list is quite balanced and fun to play against. I just like insulting him :D. similarly, as he starts up his Dark Elves, he's running 2 RBTs and one Hydra - one of each to be good, but not stacking them up and being lame.

EmperorNorton
12-03-2009, 21:51
Maybe it's because nobody I know plays Daemons, but for me the most hated army are High Elves.

Lijacote
12-03-2009, 21:53
Well, we also treat the Daemon auther like he's on crack, so it's fair. :)

Daemons are inherently powerful. Everyone else can run a fair list; my friend plays VC and I give him crap all the time for it, but his list is quite balanced and fun to play against. I just like insulting him :D. similarly, as he starts up his Dark Elves, he's running 2 RBTs and one Hydra - one of each to be good, but not stacking them up and being lame.

"Daemons can't make for fair lists"

Not exaggerating at all there...


-Special rules/stats handed out like candy. Killing blow, hatred, S5, MV5. Armor piercing, ASF, 2A, MV6. Poison Attacks, Regen, T4. Spellcasting ability, 4+ ward saves. Everything in the daemon army is loaded with effectiveness, and is just OTT with a herald in its ranks. All of those fear causing as well.


Most of the special rules you gave out there are due to the Locus special rule, which you need a herald for. Please exaggerate more

Warseer is so full of hype, I can't really discern which of you are speaking the real truth and not just some washed-up version of it

W A L 5 H Y
12-03-2009, 21:54
I think that any army that is either extremly magic heavy or shooting heavy isnt fun to play at all. I prefer to play a balanced army and have a good fun competitive game.

My hate is the gunline Dwarf or empire (although i have won more than lost against them)

My bane seems to be a Vampire counts magic heavy army. Or a Vampire counts army with Manfred and loads of heavy cavalry.

Zal
12-03-2009, 21:55
Personally I dont mind playing Daemons, they are powerful but you can still have a fun game (if your opponent isnt trying to WAAC). I hate playing high-elves more..... damn pansy elves

OldMaster
12-03-2009, 21:56
Most of the special rules you gave out there are due to the Locus special rule, which you need a herald for. Please exaggerate more


It's not like every Deamon infantry block out there has a Herald in it.

Lijacote
12-03-2009, 21:57
It's not like every Deamon infantry block out there has a Herald in it.

And heralds are known for not costing points! Oh and yeah, they're *all* Khorne Heralds that have ASF, 4+ ward, T5 and what have you. All of them.

Lord Malorne
12-03-2009, 22:06
:D Are you trying to deny that DoC are the most hated?

Lijacote
12-03-2009, 22:08
:D Are you trying to deny that DoC are the most hated?

No. I'm just trying to deny the notion that all daemonic heralds/units/whatever daemonic are magical juggernaughts of M10 ASF 1+ ward save of hell.

Which is what is being implied. Hate whatever you want but... yeah, just drives me nuts to see "oh yeah I'm a daemon player but don't know what I'm talking about"

I guess my posts are useless, my mistake for responding to such provocation.

Phytrion
12-03-2009, 22:22
Whoa their Captain Aggressive. There's certainly excessive and incorrect ranting about Daemons, but that doesn't mean the legit arguments should be ignored.

First from a fluff standpoint, it really rubs me the wrong way that there's no restrictions anymore on mixing between gods. I understand that monogod also really limits your unit selection, so I'm not saying that how it used to be was perfect - but right now is not ideal.

I'm also frustrated that the ward save is all the time. Again - the 6th ed version was far from perfect, but right now there seems to be no mitigation against this list. When I play my Brets against Daemons, no matter how well I set up my charges that damn ward save can cost me the game - because if I get bogged down with a daemon unit I'm toast.

I'm really frustrated with Nurgle - the tallyman's power ups are just ridiculous - poison at 4+ is just goood game. For Brets it wasn't so bad, but I just feel *awful* for Ogre players and others with low/no armor save against them. Plus the Greater Daemon of Nurgle that just craps out a nurgling base every now and then.

I think the main issue with daemons is that there's SO MANY WAYS to make a rock hard list. It was just poorly conceived and has poor internal AND external balance.

Bac5665
12-03-2009, 22:25
@Lijacote,
Its not that your wrong, its that you came on the board and then yelled at everyone for having an opinion that no one actually had. No here has said that each Deamon unit was the single most broken thing ever. Many people HAD said that Daemons get a bunch of little bonuses that add up to crazyness. That's a big difference.

Next time you want to come into a thread and yell at everyone for exagerating, make sure that

a) you aren't exagerating yourself, and

b) not to sound like a total dick.

You failed at both of these things, and people called you on it. I agree that not every Deamon unit is in and of itself the end of the world. But synergy makes a HUGE difference, and people had pointed that out.

Diplomacy and principals are much more effective than sarcasm and hypocrisy.

Lijacote
12-03-2009, 22:31
Whoa their Captain Aggressive. There's certainly excessive and incorrect ranting about Daemons, but that doesn't mean the legit arguments should be ignored.


I didn't know I was ignoring any arguments.

I can't really argue against your other points but this sticks out to me



there's no restrictions anymore on mixing between gods

The gods do work together sometimes, for the greater ruin of man. If the army list is mixed like that, then clearly they are for the purposes of that battle united to a degree.



I think the main issue with daemons is that there's SO MANY WAYS to make a rock hard list. It was just poorly conceived and has poor internal AND external balance.

This I agree with.

Sorry for derailing, then again you were pretty good at derailing it yourselves... wait, someone made a post


Its not that your wrong, its that you came on the board and then yelled at everyone for having an opinion that no one actually had. No here has said that each Deamon unit was the single most broken thing ever. Many people HAD said that Daemons get a bunch of little bonuses that add up to crazyness. That's a big difference.


You'd think but you'd be wrong. Look at what people post and then see what they're implying. Just a few posts back, someone said daemons can't make for "fair lists".

I don't care for diplomacy all that much, sorry.


not to sound like a total dick.

That's me all right, all disagreey and evil. I have my flaws and after HOW MANY BLOODY TOPICS, I will snap like that. I did apologize for that, I think. Now, carry on with your whining.

amazingdev2005
12-03-2009, 22:39
@Lijacote,
Next time you want to come into a thread and yell at everyone for exagerating, make sure that

a) you aren't exagerating yourself, and

b) not to sound like a total dick.


Is anyone else enjoying the heavy irony that a few people on both sides are bristling up their hairs over inciteful statements and feigning diplomacy and decorum when the unforgiving name of the thread betrays whatever statement is being made? When you're talking about hating another person's army, expect some unpleasant response and don't try and stand upon a non-existant moral highground. I'll give you the +1 combat res for trying, though ;)

-AD05

the_under_empire_clan
12-03-2009, 23:10
I have never actually lost a game to Thorek, mostly I think because the type of person that uses him is a horrible player and is just relying on him to make up for that.

Demons are probably the most hated army right now and rightly so. Not just the Kairos flying circus , but the Nugle list of not taking wounds, the Slaneesh -3-5 leadership army or the Tzeench gunline. They are all broken and not fun to play against if the person using them has the slightest idea of what he's doing.

hahaha i dont play daemons, but i made my friends slanesh army list that does exactly that and now as a skaven player i hate it sooo much. i wrote it up so he could take it to a tournement and now he doesnt stop useing it he actually placed secound. vc won cause of that little beast conrade took out an entire unit out single handedly wich was pritty rare and cool to see.

Wolfmother
12-03-2009, 23:23
bretonians and any all cavalry arm especailly korn nights the game goes move forward- charge- hold or break- win or lose game over turn 2 BORING!

Godfiend
12-03-2009, 23:46
"Daemons can't make for fair lists"

Not exaggerating at all there...

I meant more that casual Daemon list will hit harder than a casual list from other armies. I didn't phrase that very well the first time, however. :)

Talonz
13-03-2009, 00:57
Vampire Counts. Such a ridiculouslly ott book. What madness inspired them to return recasting?!?

Nostro
13-03-2009, 01:06
No. I'm just trying to deny the notion that all daemonic heralds/units/whatever daemonic are magical juggernaughts of M10 ASF 1+ ward save of hell.

Which is what is being implied.

Nobody said that. :confused:

Oh wait... implied ! Guessing what people imply? What a great way to *not* exaggerate :rolleyes:

On topic, I'd say Daemons stole the title to Vampire Counts. Wood Elves get their fair bit of hate because all the avoiding combat thing.

Lijacote
13-03-2009, 01:39
Nobody said that. :confused:

Oh wait... implied ! Guessing what people imply? What a great way to *not* exaggerate :rolleyes:



There's not much guesswork involved.

On the topic, I "hate" deathstars of all types. I don't like avoiding fights and being a coward, but deathstars almost force me to do that, or make a deathstar of my own.

Vile, but I wouldn't say I hate it. Strong word, and I do play friends so meh.

King Vyper
13-03-2009, 08:25
Orcs & Goblins

Just ask the people who play them, they hate it. :D

Daemons of Chaos get my vote.

The reason why? They are just not fun to play against, simple really.

There is no such thing as a friendly game with Daemons. You HAVE to bring a GT Quality list or there is no point in putting your models on the table. I kinda of feel sorry for DOC players, It has to get boring winning all the time.

Then again we all know that DOC player are all scum. It's true! They have sex with dead hookers and eat babies.

Nationalmaverick
13-03-2009, 09:16
My house mate is a Daemon lover, His goal week in week out is to take the weakest possible army he can reasonably come up with.

I've managed to win against his Daemons twice, he plays a few other armies which I have only ever lost too a handful of times combined...

I play Daemons in friendly games every now and then and my problem with them is that there is absolutely no need for tactics or strategy, if you take a melee heavy Daemon army you can just walk across the board safe in the knowledge that if you play them even reasonably well you'll win.
Or utterly tear them apparent with a 5 lvl 4 wizard list.
No one should be able to do that.

I just dont understand how they justified this book, any infantry unit from the core section, has more special rules then most army Generals.

Kerill
13-03-2009, 12:31
And heralds are known for not costing points! Oh and yeah, they're *all* Khorne Heralds that have ASF, 4+ ward, T5 and what have you. All of them.

They are all too cheap (except the slaanesh herald where it is fairly priced but siren is overpowered). Khorne and nurgle heralds are way too cheap and Tzeentch ones are slightly too cheap.

The daemonic core infantry is not at all overpowered on its own (with the exception of horrors which get access to bolt of change too easily), and most of the issues appear only when the heralds are added in.

I actually don't think flesh hounds are overpowered either (although many would disagree) and the GDs are fine apart from a few gifts (Bloodthirsters are expensive enough to justify their stats but re-rollable hits every round for 25 points is silly).

Flamers are 10-15 points to cheap and the max unit size is too large (capped at 4 and 40 or 45 points each and they would be fine).

Anyway most hated army? Bretonnians. Not because they are OP'd but because I hate the fluff and the ward save (daemon ward save doesn't bother me at all btw).

@National maverick, the number of rules for the units is entirely besides the point. Most generals are a dudes with a crown stuck on their heads. Daemons are magical creatures from another dimension representing different and opposing forces in the human psyche. I'd be worried if they didn't have special rules and abilities.

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 14:20
Vampire Counts. Such a ridiculouslly ott book. What madness inspired them to return recasting?!?

Recastable spells is a cute idea and could have worked, but it wasn't well thought out. Invocations have had their D6 raise spell increased in casting cost and the multiple levels removed. The problem comes in that you can easily get back to that 3+ to cast with bloodline powers so the balance is gone. Additionally Vans Dance probably wouldn't be so bad now if it was still a 9+ to cast, but being 7+ and recastable makes it overpowered.

You can blame the ASF on the High Elf book. That was the start of this ridiculous ASF creep you see in every book now since other armies needed ways to get around it and now any book without something that ASFs or makes everything else strike last is at a disadvantage.

Bac5665
13-03-2009, 15:05
I've not understood the ASF hate. It was never that bad on the HE; personal experiance tells me it rarely even makes a large difference, and I've played a huge number of games both with and against them. After HE, most armies have 1 way to get ASF in limited quantities. How is that so crazy? Most armies have some form of cav; does that mean that GW are guilty of cav creep? It's one special rule that a few of the most recent armies have, that really isn't that powerful in and of itself.

Sorry 'bout the rant, but I really don't get the ASF hate at all.

As to muti-casting VC, it may have been the single worst game design decision in warhammer that I can think of. Nothing in the DoC book is as bad, its just that DoC have more little things that add up in crazy amount. But the multi-casting frees the VC caster from the most important tactical restraint on spell casting. Khemri does this too, but most of the Khemri spells prevent you from casting the spell on the same unit twice per phase. This restriction on VC would have gone a long way towards making things right.

lasergreger
13-03-2009, 15:15
Hope you exscuse my ignorance, but what is this Thorek-Gunline thats so bitterly hissed about?

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 15:20
ASF is stupid since it takes an important part of the movement aspect out of the game. What's the point of charging when the entire unit gets to go first anyway (and in the case of spearmen get MORE attacks)? Before High Elves it was very rarely used and generally had negative aspects, like only Lahmian Vampires with no armor could use it or it made you stupid. Now entire units have it which is just silly. There was Grimgor but I don't think SC really count for balance.

High Elves by themselves aren't overpowered because of their ASF, but it led to the creep where other armies have to have it in some aspect in order to be competitive. I highly doubt that we would be seeing the ASF banner for Black Guard or Corpse Carts giving asf to everything within 6" if the High Elf book didn't open Pandora's Box. Of course things like the Keeper of Secrets have absolutely no business having ASF, especially when they have Siren Song to make stuff rush into the meat grinder and not even be able to get a few hits in first.

Lijacote
13-03-2009, 15:26
Of course things like the Keeper of Secrets have absolutely no business having ASF

Ah yes the fastest creature in the world, no business having ASF. Not that it matters much, does it? Movement 10, initiative 10...

Captin Korea!
13-03-2009, 16:03
Vampire counts get my vote. Hey look I can raise my troops that you spent last turn killing back, and make new ones. My mortals and Slaanesh daemons get there asses handed to them by these undead hoards.

I agree daemons can be ott, but a mono list is far from the most ugly thing you'll face. (aside from nurgles magic Combat res banners).

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 16:44
Ah yes the fastest creature in the world, no business having ASF. Not that it matters much, does it? Movement 10, initiative 10...

Yes if we are going to get into the whole "Well the story sez that my character is THIS.." then we're going nowhere since Slann blew up armies with their mind, Teclis fought off demon infestations, Vlad killed off armies, etc. There's gameplay balance that usually makes things not as overpowered as they are in the dramatic blurbs that are they to make everything you are using sound awesome.

The Keeper should not be able to attack before people that charge it since that's the bonus you get if you are able to outmaneuver or trap it and to make it so the Demon player actually has to use 3 braincells to with it. Currently it doesn't matter if you charge or it does, the result will be the same (your unit gets smoked). The Initiative 10 is supposed to be how he attacks first in later rounds of combat and represents his supernatural speed.

mithrandir
13-03-2009, 16:46
"Thorek Gun Line" = Rune Lord Thorek, who can bang away on his anvil and do 2d6 strength four hits to your units and also slow their movement down to half if you move on the ground & no movement for flyers, to the tune of d3 units per turn, on the roll of a three or better with a reroll.
Add to that two units of stubborn hammerers, 30 thunderers, 2 bolt throwers w/ flaming ability, a cannon, and two organ guns with a spattering of characters like a BSB, and a thane, perhaps and you have one nasty 2,250 point tournament tested stuntie army dealing out devastating and frustraiting buckets of lead - (duck!)

Laughingmonk
13-03-2009, 20:11
Ah yes the fastest creature in the world, no business having ASF. Not that it matters much, does it? Movement 10, initiative 10...

The phrase "I can do everthing you can do and I can do it better" comes to mind.

You're right, the keeper is the fastest model in the game, bar flyers.

But this is in the same army with the strongest creatures in the world, the hardest to kill creatures in the world, and the most magically powerful creatures in the world.

See the probem yet?

Lijacote
13-03-2009, 20:26
The phrase "I can do everthing you can do and I can do it better" comes to mind.

You're right, the keeper is the fastest model in the game, bar flyers.

But this is in the same army with the strongest creatures in the world, the hardest to kill creatures in the world, and the most magically powerful creatures in the world.

See the probem yet?

Those "strongest" creatures aren't equipped with ASF. No, I don't see the problem.


Yes if we are going to get into the whole "Well the story sez that my character is THIS.." then we're going nowhere since Slann blew up armies with their mind, Teclis fought off demon infestations, Vlad killed off armies, etc. There's gameplay balance that usually makes things not as overpowered as they are in the dramatic blurbs that are they to make everything you are using sound awesome.

ASF does not equal "banishing legions of daemons". It's relatively lithe, compared to what it could be. The examples you give are also as reasonably reflective of the fluff as the greater daemons are, considering how supposedly strong they are yet they are fielded in every 2k list...

Go on, more hysteria.

Consider this my last derailing post in this thread.

Valtiel
13-03-2009, 21:39
When Slaanesh is partly a god of extreme perfection and some might say beaty of battle, it doesn't seem that strange that a Keeper of Secrets fights so elegantly and with such speed and grace that it strikes before a HE spearman... or even a HE lord. Also see it as the enemies admiring the grace of the Keeper, until they realize it is striking. Fits well to me.

Baron Von Rotten
13-03-2009, 22:32
I would to vote for the HE. They generally don't give me much trouble, because they are so fragile. BUT, They are the army that started the ASF. I hate it. I Hate the trend that it has started. It breaks the #1 rule in WHFB, which is "He who Chargeth, will Striketh First". It really takes away from my favorite phase of the game... the Movement Phase. I think that GW cheapened the game when they started the ASF.

As for which army gives me the hardest time: Demons or DE. I understand all the Demon Hate. I am not saying I agree with it, I just understand it.

LKHERO
13-03-2009, 22:36
I think the most hated army I have fielded is my Thorek Gunline.

I've played 5 games with it and all 5 my games my opponent has absolutely hated it. By the end of turn 3, he has 2 models limping across the field. That's just not fun for my opponent.

Even my Khorne Demon list with 20 Fleshhounds, BT, 3x Heralds isn't as down right brainless as a Thorek Gunline. For this reason, I have completely and forever retired Thorek from my army. God rest his soul.

Talonz
14-03-2009, 00:16
The Keeper should not be able to attack before people that charge it since that's the bonus you get ...


Your argument, taken to its logical conclusion, would be for removing the asf rule from the game entirely.

It also ignores the fact that it isn't necesarily speed that gives the kipper asf, but its unnatural beauty/grace/call/whatever. Its a freaking greater daemon of slaanesh for petes sake.

There are imbalances in the book, but this isn't one worth bothering over.

Ultimo ninja
14-03-2009, 01:01
Dwarf/ Empire gunlines, Demons...... ok....welll...if you want to be a jerk, wiht allot of lists, there are way to show your hatred of losing:

WOC:

Lord on dragon

Minimal marauder core

3 units of knights screened with hounds

2 giants


High elves:

Prince on sun dragon, mages, min core, dragon princes, bolt throwers


the list goes on.....


Ofcourse the demons list is broken....I remember the local GW manager using the and going 10-0 with them against good players without breaking a sweat.....


Demons need to be nerfed...HARD.

selone
14-03-2009, 01:08
Never having faced one I'd like to ask a few questiosn about gunlines, specifically empire gunlines and why you guys hate them :) now I can understand the annoyance of a thorek gunline and whya dwarf player would go down that route (because dwarfs have few competative builds)

Do empire gunlines still see much play in this day and age? I can't imagine its their only competative build and seems to rouse much ire. Why does it rouse such ire? Is it because it wins too much, or neglects one of the phases in the game (in which case couldn't you decry Woc's as they dont do much in the shooting)

I haven't faced one so maybe I'm in for a rude awakening but I can't imagine I'd hate playing a gunline army. I imagine a shooty army versus a gunline would be pretty dull, mind, but hate?

Volker the Mad Fiddler
14-03-2009, 01:10
Ah yes the fastest creature in the world, no business having ASF. Not that it matters much, does it? Movement 10, initiative 10...

See, this is exactly the point. With Mv 10, I 10, anyone with should be able to use their daemon so it charges and strikes first. ASF takes away from the skill of the game, therefore my vote goes to the HEs for starting the silliness [though they are not a top tier army].

W0lf
14-03-2009, 01:15
The inclusion of the rule ASF merely shows the games flaws of the I system.

I have little else to add, 99% of people could tell the way this thread would go.

'Cos everyone hates daemons'

stonehorse
14-03-2009, 02:38
I want to say Daemons, but I think that the High Elves were the start of the Warhammer on crack we are seeing. I miss the Warhammer where units of 20-30 rank and file infantry were the norm.

macdaddy
14-03-2009, 03:14
I would have to agree and say deamons are my most hated army, for a number of reasons.

1) army wide rule(s): most armies now have some sort of army wide rule. DE have hatred, HE asf, but deamons have fear, immune to psych, 5+ ward. To me any of these would be ok, even any 2, but all three?

2) the core units are all under costed and all would be welcome as a special slot in everyones army. Up to level 4 wiz, as core? really? mr1, killing blow, m5. Or, how about saurus warriors that cause fear and have poison, as core.

3) Spamming items: calling banners icons doesnt mean you can spam them, imagine that all of my empire swordsmen could take the griffon standard, or ALL of my DE spearmen could get ASF. would that be balanced? YES if all could do it.

4) Character spamming: I wish I could have ALL of my sorceresses with the dagger and ward save. This is a joke.... DOC can all have the same items, bur according to the WOC, the gods dont like to duplicate themselves....beautiful.

5)NO, ZERO, NADA, restrictions, unless the player chooses to restrict himself. Every other army MUST take units that are, by their nature mediocre. That is the nature of core units. Not deamons...

6)item costs: how can a shield for a WOC lord cost @ the same as allways reroll misses? All of the costs shouls be doubled. period.

7) No inherently weaknesses. Elves are fragile, O@G are low LD, humans are mediocre over all, What is the deamon weakness?

8)heralds locus. 'nuff said

9) flamers: Why in gods name did the writer give the most powerfull book, the best skirmishing unit too? For a 198pts. DE get 10 shades with GW, and champ. what does 225 get deamons? 6 flamers with champ. lets compare: fl. are bs 4 and average 20 shots per 6 where sh get 20 shots at the equivalent bs. shades are s5 but strike last, fl are s5 but are ws2. shades can scout, flamers have 2 wounds, cause fear, t4, immune to psych, and have 2 A each...so for approximatly the same points, you get a vastly superior unit. Odd that the deamons would get a shooting unit of this quality.

10) the writer took away all of the dissadvantages , like frenzy.

Its not the individual rules that make the DOC insane, its that all of the rules add up to a virtually unbeatable army, especially on a battleboard.

Kill-Freedom
14-03-2009, 04:38
Oh man oh man oh man, now i want to play a deamon player, and pwn them with my vamps ^^

CaliforniaGamer
14-03-2009, 05:29
I would have to agree and say deamons are my most hated army, for a number of reasons.

1) army wide rule(s): most armies now have some sort of army wide rule. DE have hatred, HE asf, but deamons have fear, immune to psych, 5+ ward. To me any of these would be ok, even any 2, but all three?

2) the core units are all under costed and all would be welcome as a special slot in everyones army. Up to level 4 wiz, as core? really? mr1, killing blow, m5. Or, how about saurus warriors that cause fear and have poison, as core.

3) Spamming items: calling banners icons doesnt mean you can spam them, imagine that all of my empire swordsmen could take the griffon standard, or ALL of my DE spearmen could get ASF. would that be balanced? YES if all could do it.

4) Character spamming: I wish I could have ALL of my sorceresses with the dagger and ward save. This is a joke.... DOC can all have the same items, bur according to the WOC, the gods dont like to duplicate themselves....beautiful.

5)NO, ZERO, NADA, restrictions, unless the player chooses to restrict himself. Every other army MUST take units that are, by their nature mediocre. That is the nature of core units. Not deamons...

6)item costs: how can a shield for a WOC lord cost @ the same as allways reroll misses? All of the costs shouls be doubled. period.

7) No inherently weaknesses. Elves are fragile, O@G are low LD, humans are mediocre over all, What is the deamon weakness?

8)heralds locus. 'nuff said

9) flamers: Why in gods name did the writer give the most powerfull book, the best skirmishing unit too? For a 198pts. DE get 10 shades with GW, and champ. what does 225 get deamons? 6 flamers with champ. lets compare: fl. are bs 4 and average 20 shots per 6 where sh get 20 shots at the equivalent bs. shades are s5 but strike last, fl are s5 but are ws2. shades can scout, flamers have 2 wounds, cause fear, t4, immune to psych, and have 2 A each...so for approximatly the same points, you get a vastly superior unit. Odd that the deamons would get a shooting unit of this quality.

10) the writer took away all of the dissadvantages , like frenzy.

Its not the individual rules that make the DOC insane, its that all of the rules add up to a virtually unbeatable army, especially on a battleboard.

wow, I pretty much agree with all 10 line comments.

To answer the question of what the Daemon weakness is: Player anger. Figure after some beers and night of gaming at your local club you could catch a beat down something fierce. Im going doubt the DoC Ward Save is going to help the player much IRL.

Laughingmonk
14-03-2009, 08:07
Disregard this post.

Kill-Freedom
14-03-2009, 09:46
I HATE THE EMPIRE

only natural seeing as i play vampire counts ^^ and ive got to rule them all

Serve me in life, or slave for me in death?

Mr Uber
14-03-2009, 10:33
For all those new deamon haters out there, the deamon army has been as hard as nails for ever. The legion lists were nasty, but there weren't balanced as they are now. BALANCED! I here you scream there as broken as they come. Well I'd have to guess you never played the a nurgle or flying legion. Everyone I played with my Nurgle nastiness enjoyed playing my legion them once for the XP, but all look like they were going into shock at just how very hard they were.

As I said before now that daemons have been balanced I can now get the much needed magic, movement and shooting into my list and perform well in every phase. Which does indeed make deamons much harder to deal with and doesn't have anything to do with the two main complaints that deamons get, which I find very amusing.

What has happened is that many more people jumped on the hard army bandwagon so more people got the xp of playing deamons. And Special characters that take deamons onto a whole new level. I agree that item spamming is pretty sick but no way as sick as VC ability spamming. Believe it or not but deamons really don't get a great deal of choice when it comes down to "magic" items.

Yeah it's far easier to beat people with deamons, but I can say the same thing about VC even without the dickenhead banner.

Rip456
16-03-2009, 02:00
High elves just because of sword masters I HATE THEM. In 40k its gotta be orks

a squig
16-03-2009, 12:26
High elves just because of sword masters I HATE THEM. In 40k its gotta be orks

Sword masters Vs skinks its allways so funny when the sword masters ignore the small flitting lizards just to there left and look at the stegadon. hence one round of shooting from 10 skinks drops 13 swordmasters and makes them run away:)

40k= marines (lysander/calger armies) and necrons

Warhammer= WOC

smokemeakipper
16-03-2009, 12:34
hate ASF highelves, ruined the movement phase. goblins are totally screwed against them.

StormCrow
16-03-2009, 13:15
Daemons...

If a daemon player knows what army they are facing in advance and have even the slightest inkling to win, its going to be an uphill struggle for their opponents. Even their core units have an answer for just about every army out there.

For example;

Fighting bretonnians? Take 3 blocks of fear causing, regenerating, toughness 4, 5+ ward troops.

Fighting high elves? Take some units of mv6, ASF, fear causing troops with 2 attacks each.

It just seems to me that the incredible diversity of the daemons is what garners so much hatred. They have easy answers to just about any unit that could be thought up in the game. They have access to troops that can be highly resilient, extremely deadly in combat, dominant in the magic phase, and others with unparalleled manouverability. The irritating part is they can have all these elements in a standard 2250 army quite easily, and if they knows your army's strengths they can focus on being stronger in those particular aspects.
It's just humiliating for opponents to see their combat general get stomped flat by a blood thirster, while their glorious charge is completely thwarted by plague bearers, and in the distance their mages are stalled by a group of horrors hanging around in the deployment zone...

lame.


"hate ASF highelves, ruined the movement phase. goblins are totally screwed against them."

If goblins weren't totally screwed against high elves there'd be something very wrong with the game :p, although i do agree that the blanket ASF rule was an easy fix rather than a solid solution to high elf infantry problems.

nosferatu1001
16-03-2009, 18:43
Wait, necrons are hated in 40k? News to me. We had one necron player that we didnt like, but I just dislike the list for being one dimiensional. As an army its an easy win for prtty much anyone - shoot or cc it to death, your choice.

Daemons are "balanced" in that they can now do shooting, magic, movement and combat extremely well. Hounds are crazily good (even if the models are....meh), horrors rock for cheapish magic defence (only need 5 to get a DD) or for simply blasting opponents with one dice castings of flickering fire.

Daemons are internally balanced, but broken as regards WHFB as a whole.

In 40k i would say most hated are lysander infiltrating fleeting terminators of doom, or ork niker nob lists. More specific builds of armies than armies as a whole

invinciblebug
16-03-2009, 18:46
Daemons of course. Especially flamer spam.

W0lf
16-03-2009, 18:55
Daemons are internally balanced, but broken as regards WHFB as a whole.

Wrong.

Hounds vs juggernaughts
Flamers vs anything
Bearers vs letters

The books internal balance isnt great ether, else a daemon powerbuild woudnt rely on bloodthirsters, hounds, flamers, min horrors etc etc

GuyLeCheval
16-03-2009, 18:57
I hate dwarfs. Games with them havn't any versitality, it's always the same with the stunties...

valdrog
16-03-2009, 19:04
Vampire Counts, nothing like taking a couple of units and beating the crap out of them to bring them down to like 1-2 models..and then have them fully repleneshid and GROW on his turn. I once scored 4 direct hits with my SSCs on a unit of graveguard, only the champ and the WhighKing left..his turn, they regened all the way up again. Really the most frustating army to play against.

OH yeah ! almost forgot... WS 7 skeletong !

Mireadur
17-03-2009, 15:53
So we can conclude that Matthew Ward is the most hated developer eveeerrr??

EDIT:I will mention how much i hate VC magic items and wraiths, DE magic items and unit costs, Daemons in general and Dwarven runes! they really need to make every rune in the list master. The current runic system is totally outdated since and fits better with 5th ed hero madness rather than 7th. Also hate ASF HE (lucky my friends allow me to play without it...)

ALL 6th edition armybooks except O&G, Empire and bretonnia. Im a natural born hater... What can i say :P

arachnid
17-03-2009, 17:53
what is it about dark elves that earn them the overall third spot?

Im going to start a DE army up, and i'd hate to start off my whfb carreer by never getting any games.

They strike me as a very competent army that can go very friendly and fun or rock-hard stomp-your-face.


However, every perk they have seem to have a downside and potential liability (frenzy, hatred etc..)



oh, btw

40k most hated:

1. ORKS
just about every single thing is undercosted.

Nob biker spam that you have to cause 11 wounds to (after feel no pain) before even one of them dies. :mad:


2. Dual lash prince & plague marine lists

3. Smurf character-hammer

sneb
17-03-2009, 18:57
Wood elves.
Not that I think they're overpowered in any way but they are just no fun to play against no big blocks running at each other no epic show downs between characters, no use to flank them because of feigned flight. playing a wood elf army is like playing a scenario were the point is to play the game in the least warhammer fashion possible

cyberspite
17-03-2009, 20:23
ASF high elves, I really dont see how someone can get actually paid to come up with this rule, I can see why they felt the need to beef up h.elf infantry but it completely throws tactics (the whole idea of the game) out the window, why not just make it, strikes in initiative order, except when you get charged!, like the old swordmasters?
ASF is ok for characters but not for whole units and especially not whole armies, and I play h.elves too.

As for w.elves they are supposed to be annoying and in their defense they don't really have anything that can go toe-to-toe with the enemy so they have to hit and run, and that does require a certain amount of tactical skill to get right.

Lord Anathir
17-03-2009, 20:43
High Elf infantry need ASF to balance their cost and fragility. Anyone who played high elf infantry (and who actually won with them regularly, not lose most of their games) in 6th edition will tell you that. There are other options, but none of them fit right. We wont get more armor, or higher toughness, or lower cost. The next logical solution is to make them faster.

This ASF hate ******** is null and void because high elf best builds are the ones that DONT USE INFANTRY.

Again I repeat, High Elf top builds are the ones with dragon, rbt, dragon princes. Movement is still everything for high elves... with ASF or without it.


I think dark elves are the worst book in the game... monster mash, hotek and pendant. Lol delves way more cheesy then high elves. \

The standard tiers are:

Daemons
Dark Elves, Vampires
everything else
Ogres


And lol at all the people afraid of swordmasters. We played a whole edition fearing every infantry in the game and having to play every single game fleeing from every single charge. And now you guys whine because you cant hold a charge from one unit of one army? lol.

Hrogoff the Destructor
17-03-2009, 23:51
ASF high elves, I really dont see how someone can get actually paid to come up with this rule, I can see why they felt the need to beef up h.elf infantry but it completely throws tactics (the whole idea of the game) out the window, why not just make it, strikes in initiative order, except when you get charged!, like the old swordmasters?
ASF is ok for characters but not for whole units and especially not whole armies, and I play h.elves too.

Don't take this personally, but if you think HE throws tactics out the window you're either playing against a way better HE player or you are having your HE face off against complete idiots.

cyberspite
18-03-2009, 00:53
Ok so maybe saying it completely throws tactics out the window is going too far, but I still think it undermines tactics and trying to outmaneuver your opponent, if they struck in initiative order (even with g.weapons) then they would still be striking first most of the time anyway, except when they get charged, and there's plenty of things you can do to try and avoid that.

When it comes to top builds h.elves have some of the best infantry in the game that should be used together with things like bt's, d.princes and dragons.

The sad thing is that with GW bringing out more and more powerful armies h.elves probably do need ASF now, I just wish they could have found a more elegant solution.

badgeraddict
18-03-2009, 01:05
Yeah...my most hated army is Orcs & Goblins.

Soley because Fanatics always ruin my day.

I guess most people said Daemons :p

Mireadur
18-03-2009, 08:37
Wood elves.
Not that I think they're overpowered in any way but they are just no fun to play against no big blocks running at each other no epic show downs between characters, no use to flank them because of feigned flight. playing a wood elf army is like playing a scenario were the point is to play the game in the least warhammer fashion possible

I forgot this in my post, but i totally suscribe to these words!

craskie666
18-03-2009, 15:11
Dac?????????

Phazael
18-03-2009, 16:20
Daemons are obviously the most publicly hated army, as anyone who follows the net nerd rage can easily tell.

Personally, I place three armies above DoC on my hate list:

1) VC Invospam mono skeleton list with GG Deathstar-
A friend of mine plays this in the local tournaments and its extremely frustrating because he has so much magic that if you leave even a single survivor in a unit, they are back (usually larger) the next turn. And let me tell you, fighting WS7 Skeletons is sooo much fun when the Vamp lord is safelt sipping pina collatas miles away in a bunker unit you will never reach, because it is bricked in on all sides by summoned zombies. This list is not just boring/frustrating to face, its also to my mind the most powerful tournament list out there with literally no bad matchups. It is the great wall of Nurgle on steroids.

2) Slayer/Thunderer Thorek Gunline of doom-
This list is somewhat beatable, but it is in many ways even more aggravating to play than the invospam list because at least you get to roll dice in combat against that list.

3) Shadestar-
A billion man shade unit with mutliple characters and assasins slapped in, all sporting the ninjastars of doom. The rest of the table is clogged with Harpies and Dark Riders, with the occasional Hydra of RBT. Charge the unit and you get shot to hell. Go near the unit and you get shot to hell. Try and nuke the unit and you face MR4. Actually make it into CC with it and you face 3-4 assasins before you even get to deal with the WS5 ASF S5 guys.

Now DoC wise, the all star Tzeench list (Kairos, Scribes, Skulltaker, Masque, AND Changling all in one list) and Great Wall of Nurgle are clearly ones people hate to face, and with good reason. I think the DoC list I hate the most is the Leadership Lockdown Slaanesh list, but Slaanesh has almost nothing else.

fubukii
18-03-2009, 16:24
Daemons are obviously the most publicly hated army, as anyone who follows the net nerd rage can easily tell.

Personally, I place three armies above DoC on my hate list:

1) VC Invospam mono skeleton list with GG Deathstar-
A friend of mine plays this in the local tournaments and its extremely frustrating because he has so much magic that if you leave even a single survivor in a unit, they are back (usually larger) the next turn. And let me tell you, fighting WS7 Skeletons is sooo much fun when the Vamp lord is safelt sipping pina collatas miles away in a bunker unit you will never reach, because it is bricked in on all sides by summoned zombies. This list is not just boring/frustrating to face, its also to my mind the most powerful tournament list out there with literally no bad matchups. It is the great wall of Nurgle on steroids.

2) Slayer/Thunderer Thorek Gunline of doom-
This list is somewhat beatable, but it is in many ways even more aggravating to play than the invospam list because at least you get to roll dice in combat against that list.

3) Shadestar-
A billion man shade unit with mutliple characters and assasins slapped in, all sporting the ninjastars of doom. The rest of the table is clogged with Harpies and Dark Riders, with the occasional Hydra of RBT. Charge the unit and you get shot to hell. Go near the unit and you get shot to hell. Try and nuke the unit and you face MR4. Actually make it into CC with it and you face 3-4 assasins before you even get to deal with the WS5 ASF S5 guys.


i 100% agree with this only id rate the shadestar and thorek as more hated in my mind then the vc list. At least theres a chance i can assassinate the characters for the vc army, but the other 2 are well, just rediculous.

Dungeon_Lawyer
18-03-2009, 17:42
i 100% agree with this only id rate the shadestar and thorek as more hated in my mind then the vc list. At least theres a chance i can assassinate the characters for the vc army, but the other 2 are well, just rediculous.

+2 only I would humbly add the BOC morgor master of skulls surrounded by loads and loads of cheap doggies list,, so by turn two you are facing not only morgor's crazy abilities that throw the entire game out of whack but over a dozen chaos spawn with more and more and more on the way.

Phazael
18-03-2009, 21:50
+2 only I would humbly add the BOC morgor master of skulls surrounded by loads and loads of cheap doggies list,, so by turn two you are facing not only morgor's crazy abilities that throw the entire game out of whack but over a dozen chaos spawn with more and more and more on the way.


This list is super easy to beat if he uses the dogs. It has no general, so just panic one key dog unit and watch the chain reaction as all of his spawn generators flee off of the table on turn one. And its not like Spawn are that hard for people to kill these days, either....

stonehorse
19-03-2009, 00:51
3) Shadestar-
A billion man shade unit with mutliple characters and assasins slapped in, all sporting the ninjastars of doom. The rest of the table is clogged with Harpies and Dark Riders, with the occasional Hydra of RBT. Charge the unit and you get shot to hell. Go near the unit and you get shot to hell. Try and nuke the unit and you face MR4. Actually make it into CC with it and you face 3-4 assasins before you even get to deal with the WS5 ASF S5 guys.

Sarcasim aside, you do know that a unit of Dark Elves can only have one Assassin at the start, sure more can join... but if your opponent is doing this their is a big weakness that you can easily exploit.

Assassins and Shades are expensive Points wise, so to get a lot of Assassins your opponent will no doubt have a few minimum sized Dark Elf warrior units just to generate an Assassin. If the unit is wiped out or flees of the board the Assassin is lost. Also if they are fleeing the Assassin can't come out or be revealed.

Take these out of the equation, which isn't that hard, toughness 3 and a save of either 5 or 6... Elves die in a strong breeze.

If the opponent is taking characters in the unit then he isn't using the Shades scout ability to it's full potential, again a weakness that can be exploited.

nosferatu1001
19-03-2009, 13:18
Shades have to scout - you dont have any choice in that. The legal way to run shadestar is the characters join the unit first turn. Similarly you reveal assasins first turn to avoid them running away.

Mollusk
19-03-2009, 20:17
What has happened is that many more people jumped on the hard army bandwagon so more people got the xp of playing deamons.

I know I'm a little late to this party, but I think this is an interesting point. Even though DoC have some balance issues (which have been hashed out ad nauseum), there are so many more people playing them only for the purpose of beating opponents senseless. I was at my local last night for fantasy night and I saw a guy with a brand new, unpainted daemon army just annihilating what appeared to be elves of some flavor. I couldn't help but think a few bad thoughts.

stonehorse
19-03-2009, 21:39
Shades have to scout - you dont have any choice in that. The legal way to run shadestar is the characters join the unit first turn. Similarly you reveal assasins first turn to avoid them running away.

I didn't say they weren't using their scout ability... I said they aren't using it to its full potential.

Panzer MkIV
20-03-2009, 02:11
I don't hate any army and happily play against any of them as long as it isn't some WAAC-built

bork da basher
21-03-2009, 03:50
i dont hate any particular army or list or whatever. my enjoyment comes from the game itself and its usually only if i have to play a jackass opponant that my enjoyment suffers.

i get to play only once in a blue moon so i try to enjoy whatever comes up. if i get whooped by a WAAC army then at least i got to play lol.

GeneralDisaster
21-03-2009, 07:30
Erm...this will sound stupid, but what is "WAAC"?

snurl
21-03-2009, 07:43
Win At All Costs

GeneralDisaster
21-03-2009, 08:06
Ah. Thankyou my life is now that little more complete for knowing that WAAC is Win at all costs, and not Women's Auxiliary Air Corps.

craskie666
21-03-2009, 14:47
I would have to agree and say deamons are my most hated army, for a number of reasons.

1) army wide rule(s): most armies now have some sort of army wide rule. DE have hatred, HE asf, but deamons have fear, immune to psych, 5+ ward. To me any of these would be ok, even any 2, but all three?

2) the core units are all under costed and all would be welcome as a special slot in everyones army. Up to level 4 wiz, as core? really? mr1, killing blow, m5. Or, how about saurus warriors that cause fear and have poison, as core.

3) Spamming items: calling banners icons doesnt mean you can spam them, imagine that all of my empire swordsmen could take the griffon standard, or ALL of my DE spearmen could get ASF. would that be balanced? YES if all could do it.

4) Character spamming: I wish I could have ALL of my sorceresses with the dagger and ward save. This is a joke.... DOC can all have the same items, bur according to the WOC, the gods dont like to duplicate themselves....beautiful.

5)NO, ZERO, NADA, restrictions, unless the player chooses to restrict himself. Every other army MUST take units that are, by their nature mediocre. That is the nature of core units. Not deamons...

6)item costs: how can a shield for a WOC lord cost @ the same as allways reroll misses? All of the costs shouls be doubled. period.

7) No inherently weaknesses. Elves are fragile, O@G are low LD, humans are mediocre over all, What is the deamon weakness?

8)heralds locus. 'nuff said

9) flamers: Why in gods name did the writer give the most powerfull book, the best skirmishing unit too? For a 198pts. DE get 10 shades with GW, and champ. what does 225 get deamons? 6 flamers with champ. lets compare: fl. are bs 4 and average 20 shots per 6 where sh get 20 shots at the equivalent bs. shades are s5 but strike last, fl are s5 but are ws2. shades can scout, flamers have 2 wounds, cause fear, t4, immune to psych, and have 2 A each...so for approximatly the same points, you get a vastly superior unit. Odd that the deamons would get a shooting unit of this quality.

10) the writer took away all of the dissadvantages , like frenzy.

Its not the individual rules that make the DOC insane, its that all of the rules add up to a virtually unbeatable army, especially on a battleboard.


u say no weakness but they are only bloodletters are only T3 and flamers onlu have a WS2

Harwammer
21-03-2009, 15:33
As a BoC player I have to say I hate High Elves.

Generally I dislike the entire HE, VC, DoC, DE period for warhammer, it seems things may be calming down a bit now, but there are still some elements of madness showing up in the newest books too.

Historically I also hate dwarf gunlines supported movement denial (anvil, thorek, etc). Dwarfs are such a cool army by fluff, but can be so frustrating to play.

Awilla the Hun
21-03-2009, 15:55
High Elves can be handled. I don't like an army that has all that Always Strike First, but my Handgunner battery (26 men) started dishing out volley fire like nobody's business. All those poor save, T3, expensive models discovered that the musket ball outpaced their Quick Elven Reflexes soon enough.

I wouldn't like to face a Twilight themed Vampire Counts army (well, I would, but for the wrong reasons-notably, cackling insanely as the might of the Peasants and Workers of the Red Guards beats the hell out of Eddy C), and I've heard that Daemons are nasty. But I'm not a great fantasy player.

akgaroth
21-03-2009, 16:07
As WoC player I quite dislike gunlines (being Thorek's one the most annoying) but I don't really have an army that gives me nauseas.

Shiodome
21-03-2009, 16:23
Anyone else found that outside of forums DoC are played less and less anyway? My local group which i'd guess is about 20 players, see's virtually no DoC lists anymore. I know a few players have the army as they played them when they were released, but they say that games stopped being fun so they moved on. (mostly to WoC and Lizardmen).

My most hated is Dwarves. But that's 'cos i'm O&G and i'm supposed to hate dwarves :D


hate ASF highelves, ruined the movement phase. goblins are totally screwed against them.

Funny you should mention that, my block gobbos made my opponents dragon princes and lord flee yesterday! :D <3 nets+CR. (lost combat by 2 when charged, stuck around due to general's ld9/BSB... on average wouldn't flee. next round elves wounding on 5's, they run) not that this is an everyday occourance by any means, think the opponent was just unfamiliar with O&G due to their relative rarity atm. i'd say goblins actually do better vs elves than most average troops (str3/t3). swordmasters tear chunks out of O&G of course, but we've got so much disposable high movement crap to throw at them they should never earn their point back.

fubukii
21-03-2009, 21:16
I would have to agree and say deamons are my most hated army, for a number of reasons.

1) army wide rule(s): most armies now have some sort of army wide rule. DE have hatred, HE asf, but deamons have fear, immune to psych, 5+ ward. To me any of these would be ok, even any 2, but all three?

2) the core units are all under costed and all would be welcome as a special slot in everyones army. Up to level 4 wiz, as core? really? mr1, killing blow, m5. Or, how about saurus warriors that cause fear and have poison, as core.

3) Spamming items: calling banners icons doesnt mean you can spam them, imagine that all of my empire swordsmen could take the griffon standard, or ALL of my DE spearmen could get ASF. would that be balanced? YES if all could do it.

4) Character spamming: I wish I could have ALL of my sorceresses with the dagger and ward save. This is a joke.... DOC can all have the same items, bur according to the WOC, the gods dont like to duplicate themselves....beautiful.

5)NO, ZERO, NADA, restrictions, unless the player chooses to restrict himself. Every other army MUST take units that are, by their nature mediocre. That is the nature of core units. Not deamons...

6)item costs: how can a shield for a WOC lord cost @ the same as allways reroll misses? All of the costs shouls be doubled. period.

7) No inherently weaknesses. Elves are fragile, O@G are low LD, humans are mediocre over all, What is the deamon weakness?

8)heralds locus. 'nuff said

9) flamers: Why in gods name did the writer give the most powerfull book, the best skirmishing unit too? For a 198pts. DE get 10 shades with GW, and champ. what does 225 get deamons? 6 flamers with champ. lets compare: fl. are bs 4 and average 20 shots per 6 where sh get 20 shots at the equivalent bs. shades are s5 but strike last, fl are s5 but are ws2. shades can scout, flamers have 2 wounds, cause fear, t4, immune to psych, and have 2 A each...so for approximatly the same points, you get a vastly superior unit. Odd that the deamons would get a shooting unit of this quality.

10) the writer took away all of the dissadvantages , like frenzy.

Its not the individual rules that make the DOC insane, its that all of the rules add up to a virtually unbeatable army, especially on a battleboard.


u say no weakness but they are only bloodletters are only T3 and flamers onlu have a WS2

ill bite and take the impossible rule of defending daemons slightly ( granted i admit they are really powerful)

1) - daemons have always had these rules, granted VC also have most of the same rules (minus ward). they really arent too overpowering id say.
2) - ill agree horrors are fairly good for thier cost. Blood letters are bad compared to other troops of similar standing, as are daemonettes. Pb are great if they pack a herald. Saurus are cheaper and better then BL and Daemonettes in most case
3) - All of the daemonic banners for core troops arent as good as asf banner or the griffon banner so thats why you can take multiples, minus possibly the reroll wound banner in combo with a herald of nurgle they are all decent but not really amazing
4) - once again daemons dont have Gifts has powerful as the dagger, or ring of hotek, or the pendant. In addition vampire counts can have the same bloodline powers, which in this case is basically the same thing. (MOTBA anyone?, forbidden lore? Red fury? i could go on)
5) your right horrors and plague bearers are useful troops. granted if you take min daemon core they easy to kill and negate thier bonus to the army ( such at the 3 dd the horror gen). Most armies have a good unit of core they can spam, such as dark riders, for he they get less core. VC get the option of barely taking core and making a whole army for 300 from 300 pts of core that multiples into 800 etc.
6) - i disagree, a daemon pays alot for +1 str and flaming while you can have a halbred or a sword of might for less. The item costs seem ok for most things, minus some things like siren song which should be more i admit
7) - high pt cost, Non plague bearer core fragile, Weak vs Multiple wound weapons, low model count, sometimes low unit count, can not flee.
8) - true the locus abilities are good, the regen one is too powerful, but hatred/asf/+1 ward aint too bad.
9)5 flamers are 190 100 shades are 198 thats closer. you can also give your shades a assassin, have ws5, scout. Shades will beat flamers in cc, and shot roughly the same, with a longer range. -1t but you have to take into account that scouting is a nice advantage, also of course shades have hatred.
10) - i wish blood letters kept frenzy it would make them worth taking!

akgaroth
21-03-2009, 22:03
fabukii, using VC and DE as counter-examples of DoC overpowerness (and not in all the reasons for it) won't support your theory ;).
I completely agree however with your point 7.

Prince_Zail
22-03-2009, 02:38
what i think is slightly unfair about people just labeling daemons or dark elves as overpowered and broken (more DoC not DE) is the fact that i have had both of these armies before the new books came out... i've been playing dark elves for almost 10 years now... i'm glad they got a tune up because even when they got an "errata" to make them better... they were still weak in comparison to everything else i got to play...

and as for daemons yeah they got a lot of new power but for me the biggest difference is in daemonic instability... my block of plaugebearers that is supposed to be the most ultimate anvil... rolls one bad LD test and the whole block consisting of 20 of my 70 models just vanishes off the board... that in my oppinoin is broken in the other direction... i loved them so much to where i tried but they were still too unreliable...

now i agree each god has an overpowered list but the people who use them outside of WAAC situations are just @$$holes...

honestly my favorite army to play is an all tzeentch one... people immeadetly thing OMG gay gunline... you suck... but i don't play that way... i use all the aoe spells and run my horror blocks right at people and do as many of the "all enemy units within 12"" spells, banners and abilites... it's different and very agressive... my opponent said it was actually kind of cool to play against although difficult because he wasn't expecting it and didn't know how to deal with it...

their broken attitude is almost entirely due to people who abuse them...

Sneaky Gitz
22-03-2009, 04:51
O&G they are way too OP atm, the boar boys, black orcs and trolls need points increased. Also having most of the army able to move D6 each turn is devistating to my tactics.

Lazarus15
22-03-2009, 06:22
Prince Zail- My Tzeentch list is played similarly and all of my friends have been shown by myself the weaknesses of the army and how to exploit them. Now the army is still good, but the opponents know what needs to happen. I run the hell out of some horrors after the first turn.

squeekenator
22-03-2009, 06:26
Zail: You may have collected those armies since before they became broken, but that doesn't make it any more fun for your opponent. Me friend collected Dark Elves while they were still weak, but that doesn't suddenly make his army balanced.

Also, why is it so bad that you can lose a whole infantry block by failing a break test? It happens to everyone else too.

- Human
22-03-2009, 09:47
Armies generally used to be hated because they were boring to play against, like Dwarfs or Brettonians.

These days it has a lot more to do with enormous imbalances in power. Like everyone else has mentioned, Daemons are generally hated because they make winning easy. Facing so many solid daemon units with basically no disadvantages make playing a more balanced army frustrating. VC are right up there as well.

Although the DE are probably the 3rd most powerful, I don't think they're really hated that much. They have weaknesses and offer a lot of variety. Only double-hydra type lists are going to attract the kind of hate the above mentioned armies do.

Mireadur
22-03-2009, 13:26
what i think is slightly unfair about people just labeling daemons or dark elves as overpowered and broken (more DoC not DE) is the fact that i have had both of these armies before the new books came out... i've been playing dark elves for almost 10 years now... i'm glad they got a tune up because even when they got an "errata" to make them better... they were still weak in comparison to everything else i got to play...



I dont get how it is related someone having the armies since many years ago with the fact both armies are OTT. That doesnt make the armies less OTT but doesnt make you look like a waac kid.


and as for daemons yeah they got a lot of new power but for me the biggest difference is in daemonic instability... my block of plaugebearers that is supposed to be the most ultimate anvil... rolls one bad LD test and the whole block consisting of 20 of my 70 models just vanishes off the board... that in my oppinoin is broken in the other direction... i loved them so much to where i tried but they were still too unreliable...

You may be right about this one. However, considering the massive power daemon units have now, the new unstability is just too benevolent.

Prince_Zail
27-03-2009, 19:11
good point with the breaking thing squeakanator but if you know the old rule... they had to take two tests... one to see if the just dissapeared... and then another to see if the crumbled... they can poof by losing by one... that doesn't normally happen to anyone...

and i'm not saying that this upgrade in comparison doesn't make the dark elves ott now... but a few years ago before their errata they were near impossible to win with.. try this my friend plays lizzards... my rxbow men costed the same as a saurus warrior... do you think they even stood a chance against them?... no matter how you sliced that that fight was hopless... they dropped the points for the erratta... made them a viable option over the corsairs... new book they get armor peircing... that helps... then the new liz book comes out and what happend one more armor for the saurus... back where i started... although now w/out preadatory fighter they will rock my world even more in cc...

someone asked my why i even use them instead of black guard... again i bring up my point that it is the people who just buy 15 dark riders (minimal core) and then build their army entirely out of special choices and characters that make these lists gay...

kylek2235
27-03-2009, 20:52
Daemons- they're overpowered. The reasons are debatable, the evidence is every tournament since their release.

but really, this answer was about as predetermined as what's the worst 7th edition army.

Karlon
28-03-2009, 00:04
Any gunline is frustrating and boring to play against, in my opinion.

Demons are frustrating, but at least you get to roll some dice.

Dokushin
28-03-2009, 00:20
good point with the breaking thing squeakanator but if you know the old rule... they had to take two tests... one to see if the just dissapeared... and then another to see if the crumbled... they can poof by losing by one... that doesn't normally happen to anyone...


We need to talk about Break tests and how they work.

Infantry units lose by 1 and go poof all the time.

I'm sorry, I know it's frustrating that you play Daemons because you like them and now everyone thinks they're broken -- but they think that because they are broken. Daemonic instability is far more forgiving than traditional battle leadership, universal ward is frustrating and uncorrectable, and just about every unit in the army brings an amazing amount of power and versatility for its point cost. There aren't any weaknesses -- there aren't even non-strengths. Is it autowin? No, but Daemons can pursue just about any strategy as well as or better than any other army. They sidestep a lot of the 'balancing' mechanics and bring units that are ridiculously good at their specialization while still being much better than average where most units would be weak (S5 flamers, MR3 flesh hounds, etc).

I feel for you. I really do. But Daemons are simply better than everything else. You will never play a game with them that is not influenced by that, both mechanically and psychologically.

squeekenator
28-03-2009, 02:08
good point with the breaking thing squeakanator but if you know the old rule... they had to take two tests... one to see if the just dissapeared... and then another to see if the crumbled... they can poof by losing by one... that doesn't normally happen to anyone...

What's the problem? You get Stubborn on everything, with the only disadvantage being that occasionally you can lose some extra guys even if you don't run. I'd pay for that.

vinny t
28-03-2009, 17:45
Daemins are the most hated army. People who win with daemons win because they play daemons. I have seen new players wipe the floor with great generals just because of the army they play. Daemons aren't even fun to play against because, anything you can do they can do better.

Moving- All Slaanesh stuff and Greater daemons
Shooting- Flamers and Screamers come to mind
Magic-Every lore in the daemon book is better than every other lore, except maybe vamps
Combat-Khorne, and the ability to make every unit an anvil unit, due to the ridiculous instability rules.

Lijacote
28-03-2009, 18:19
All plaguebearers shoot lightning out of their arses, chop harder and faster than everything in the game... applies to horrors too.

I mean good gods their infantry can do everything.