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eagletsi1
12-03-2009, 13:56
We all know that taking a Special Character (Skulltaker, Mask, etc) in the Deamon List is Over the top.

But the question is does a Daemon List not using any special characters, make the list more playable in games, and thus more liked by others.

I have yet to see a list without a special character in any of the tournaments, I have been to, but our store is thinking of using a rule that says no special characters will this balance the daemon list?

Neknoh
12-03-2009, 14:00
Not really, no. It will balance some builds, but the Daemon List will not be inherently more balanced because you make them take Greater Daemons and Heralds instead of Special Characters.

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 14:02
No. You don't need the special characters to take advantage of the multitudes of strengths available to demons. The super special characters are so ridiculous that obviously they are going to be used at tournies, but even if they were banned it would just be a matter of a slight tone down in strength since regular characters with the demonic gift combos would take their place.

EDIT: Your poll choices don't have the options for "No, it will not make the demon army less overpowered"

zak
12-03-2009, 14:05
I hav found it difficult to take a list which doesn't win easily. There are no poor choices, just some that are better than others. Not usin SC's will assist, but it won't fix the overall issue that deamons are far too good.

Desert Rain
12-03-2009, 14:26
In some builds the removal of special characters would help a bit. But the daemons ordinary characters and their troops are still powerull enough to OTT.

swarmofseals
12-03-2009, 15:28
Disclaimer: This is going off of theoryhammer and not experience.

I think that this would help but not be enough, but it's a great step in the right direction.

Another rule that would be very helpful would be to eliminate the possibility of taking multiples of the same daemonic gifts or vampiric powers in the same army list (with the exception of the two martialle powers that are just loadouts of basic equipment. If you want to be a little less harsh, you can use the brettonian rule for knightly virtues that the second instance of a given ability in the same list costs double, the third costs triple etc.

While these two rules together wouldn't eliminate all of the cheese possibilities for VC and Daemons, I think the rest can be handicapped with a good set of Comp guidelines. Just about every army book out there has a couple of cheesy things. Empire can run a Walter Two-Tanks build, Skaven has it's SAD, etc. So daemons can still cheese out a bloodthirster, run 12 flamers, and a plaguebearer angle... but if they do, they're going to have a terrible comp score.


NOTE: This would still leave Daemons and VC as high tier armies, and doesn't do much to help "fix" Dark Elves. That said, comp rules alone may be enough for handle DE, I don't know.

W0lf
12-03-2009, 15:51
Not taking special characters helps. The list is still broken without their inclusion though.

Its pretty hard to make a balanced Daemons army as pretty much everything is OTT. Masque/Taker/Kairos are the real offenders and tbh Kairos dosnt bother me and taker is manageable/counterable.

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 15:52
Not taking special characters helps. The list is still broken without their inclusion though.

Its pretty hard to make a balanced Daemons army as pretty much everything is OTT. Masque/Taker/Kairos are the real offenders and tbh Kairos dosnt bother me and taker is manageable/counterable.

Soultaker wouldn't be broken if he couldn't be mounted. It's almost like they made him and said "hmm this guy is actually pretty balanced... Well we can't have that, give him movement 7 and a 0+ armor save!!!"

Grimbrow
12-03-2009, 15:56
Kairos is pretty much the worst offender, when combined with the blue scribes (which is every time). Yeah, No SCs would get rid of a few uber-ultra-mega-death lists, but Daemons remain comfortably on top of the pile (not 'top-tier') even without them.

W0lf
12-03-2009, 15:56
Meh he would be broken.

If you think a 150 pt hero with his stats is balanced your thinking in relation to other stuff in the daemons book.

Think of him as a chaos exalted (who are already very hard + have to challenge like him)

Then for 40 pts you get;

Cause fear
5+ ward
+1 armour save
+2 WS, +3 I
Axe of Khorne that killing blows on a 5+ VS EVERYTHING
Hatred
MR 1
Flaming attacks.

For 40 pts? If you think thats balanced your insane.

The closest i can get an exalted to that (Pts aside) is;

Exalted
Axe of khorne, shield, mark of tz, talisman of protection

Thats 190 pts without

- 5+ KB
- KB vs EVERTHING
- Hatred
- +2 WS, +3I
- Cause fear
- MR 1
- Flaming attacks.

Its also over his magic item allowance.

Balanced-my-ass

Grimbrow
12-03-2009, 15:59
The only reason skulltaker gets a bit more balanced on foot is because there's a chance you can keep him out of combat with your important stuff. On paper, he's still an absolute monster.

W0lf
12-03-2009, 16:01
I agree hes 'more balanced'

However hes still broken. And saying you can avoid him is fine, hes still only 150 pts.

Somerandomidiot
12-03-2009, 16:39
Honestly, my fix for the daemon book (and I play daemons) would be that all units who aren't allied with the same god as your general cost 25% more points. You want a Bloodthirster, Plaguebearers, and Flamers? That's gonna cost you extra, since you gotta bribe them all to play nicely. That being said, I refuse to run special characters in my army- not that a kitted Herald of Khorne is that much worse than Skulltaker, but he's certainly more expensive.

MarcoPollo
12-03-2009, 16:46
Special characters in my opinion take away from the fun of warhammer fantasy. The only ones I can tolerate are ones that alter the special, rare, and core choices of an army so as to produce a varied theme style army.

In the case of demons, the special characters tend to be OTT. But so too are some of the Greater Demon builds. But atleast the GD builds cost alot of points.

Ixquic
12-03-2009, 16:54
I agree hes 'more balanced'

However hes still broken. And saying you can avoid him is fine, hes still only 150 pts.

Yeah I'm thinking balanced in relation to other SC. They are all too good for their points. Caradryan is another good example of that.

Lord Inquisitor
12-03-2009, 17:01
It would go a long way to helping. Saying "no special characters" would certainly do some good in reigning in daemon and undead armies in a fair way.

I would point out my usual rant about special characters - they are quite often cheaper than regular characters, but that doesn't necessarily mean broken. Theoretically, lacking the multitude of options a regular character has access to (and needs to be pointed taking into account the best possible combination), a special character can be accurately tested and pointed given his actual power level. So, not so much that SCs are "too cheap" but that regular characters are slightly overcosted if you use anything but an optimum build.

That said, that doesn't mean that SCs aren't actually undercosted (the Masque is just too cheap!), just that you can expect them to be slightly cheaper in general than customisable characters.

Lijacote
12-03-2009, 18:41
People can't seriously be implying the power levels of the book aren't diminished by the exclusion of special characters... not that I ever understood you lot anyway, complaining about a 5+ ward when most daemons don't have any other saves.

That includes regular Lords of Change and Keepers of Secrets... 5+ save at best, T6 or not.

Maybe the problem is people think every daemon is capable of doing everything, which is not the case.

tl;dr not every list is Bloodthirster / flamers / flesh hounds, attack the lists not the players or the army at large.

in b4 whining

nosferatu1001
12-03-2009, 18:49
The SC's have a huge, huge impact when used in conjunction - kairos and scribes is just a glaring combo that shouldnt have made it past playtest as is. Skulltaker is good, granted, but on a mount? Insanely good.

eagletsi1
12-03-2009, 21:00
Thanks everyone for your input.

Currently, I think we may just not allow any SC's in our tournaments.

That should help, at least from what you guys are saying, it sounds like a good step in the right direction.

Grimbrow
13-03-2009, 02:10
Yep, I think it's a good idea, as it'll get rid of Thorek and all the other broken SCs, too, not just daemon ones. Dwarf players should have the balls to use a real runelord or nothing :p

O&G'sRule
13-03-2009, 02:16
I really dont see everyones fascination with skull taker, ok hes hard, so just charge him with 1wound troops, gang a few up on him and his 2 wounds go up in smoke. don't fight him with characters/ monsters except tyrion, or other immune to killing blow stuff. My troll army is screwed but thats for me to deal with, not moan about

swarmofseals
13-03-2009, 03:00
I really dont see everyones fascination with skull taker, ok hes hard, so just charge him with 1wound troops, gang a few up on him and his 2 wounds go up in smoke. don't fight him with characters/ monsters except tyrion, or other immune to killing blow stuff. My troll army is screwed but thats for me to deal with, not moan about


I'm curious about what "1 wound troops" you are talking about here. Basically to have any chance of striking back, you've got to strike first. Given that he has an initiative of 9 you'll have to be charging or have ASF. Charging is likely going to require you to be cavalry with move > 7.

Skulltaker has WS9, so many units will be hitting on a 5+. 4+ at best. He's got T4 which isn't so bad, but then you have to deal with a 0+ armor save... so you need S6 to even get his armor save to 3+. Then you have the 5+ ward save to deal with. Two wounds isn't a lot, but it's hardly going to go "up in smoke" to 1 wound regular troops.

So to recap, we're talking about WS5+, M7+/ASF, S6+ troops. And you really have to kill him in the first round because after that he is probably going to be attacking first and killing most if not all of the models in base contact.

With a statline of WS5 and S7, you're going to need an average of 14.4 attacks to kill him in 1 turn. I don't know how many models you can expect to get in base to base contact with him, but I doubt it's more than 5, and 4 is probably more reasonable. So we're talking about models with 3 attacks as well.

So basically what you're saying is that if you manage to charge him with some WS5, S7, A3 "troops" you can have even odds of killing him. Of course, anything with that stat line is probably setting you back 50 points per model, so if Skulltaker actually survives he's likely to kill his entire points value back really, really quickly.

Lazarus15
13-03-2009, 06:22
I am sorry, but I have to disagree. If I see a really good enemy unit or model, IE: Shaggoths, I try and kill it without assaulting it. For tomb kings that means skull catapults and casket of souls. Warmachines work well, and so on. No, one wound models won't kill Skulltaker, nor should they or any other character for the most part. It takes other characters, and either elite infantry, or warmachines to kill things like him.

slingersam
13-03-2009, 09:15
So basically what you're saying is that if you manage to charge him with some WS5, S7, A3 "troops" you can have even odds of killing him. Of course, anything with that stat line is probably setting you back 50 points per model, so if Skulltaker actually survives he's likely to kill his entire points value back really, really quickly.

The only thing that I can think of with something close to that stat line, are sword masters of heoth, and they are only 15pts a model, but to find skulltaker by himself and all alone won't be easy.

dijit80
13-03-2009, 10:04
Personally I think ban all SCs in all tournies, it's too much that these SCs fight in every singe battle all over the place. I think banning Lord level characters might help, as well for a daemon list, but its still pretty tough even with that.

Kerill
13-03-2009, 11:19
I am sorry, but I have to disagree. If I see a really good enemy unit or model, IE: Shaggoths, I try and kill it without assaulting it. For tomb kings that means skull catapults and casket of souls. Warmachines work well, and so on. No, one wound models won't kill Skulltaker, nor should they or any other character for the most part. It takes other characters, and either elite infantry, or warmachines to kill things like him.


You believe shaggoths are good?
Skull taker is very hard indeed (although is basically a Khorne herald if you keep your characters away). Dwarves and high elves can laugh at him (immunity to fire) and empire characters can reduce his impact (VHS, white cloak) other than that he will butcher the hell out of anything in the game. Oldblood with BOR will get a chance if he charges, if he fails he dies. Dark elves have the pendant of cheese for a 2+ ward against him. Skulltaker can chop up Khorne Chaos lords for breakfast unless they have the daemonsword and even then if they don't get the charge they will die even faster than other characters (at best a 6+ ward)
War machines will not be able to pick out skulltaker from his unit. He also has MR2 which means 2 free dice against the casket of souls but the army will almost certainly have flesh hounds so thats 3 free dice against the casket.

Anyway back to the OT:
No daemons are still overpowered, the heralds in particular (GD's you get what you pay for even if they are hard to deal with, they should be).
If you want to bring daemons down to nearly the same playing field:
1) No SC's
2) Only 1 unit of flamers, 1 unit of screamers max
3) May take either 1 greater daemon or 2 heralds, no more! (1 herald at sub 2000 points)

Incidentally, love the dodgy poll options.

Kamenwati
13-03-2009, 14:29
The SC's are pretty bad but I think the quickest and best fix for the demon army would be to bring back the old instability rule. Lose combat and fail base leadership test then "poof" goes the unit. Or make it so on double 6's they poof. As it stands now, even a demon unit losing badly in combat will rarely take significant casualties due to instabiliy. Especially with the stubborn banner.

fubukii
13-03-2009, 14:43
i think double 6s as a poof would be a good addition and not to broken. THe old rolling over thier ld then poofing was a bit way to extreme and made people actually not use daemon units.

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 14:43
How to fix Demons:


Return to old instability, but allow reroll from BSB and raise base leaderships by about a point
Remove ASF and always strikes last abilities on Greater Demons (keep it on Demonettes and Heralds). No model that powerful should have access to those abilities.
Ward saves don't work against magical attacks. Include cheap gifts for characters that make wards regular.
Recost all the SC or tone them down significantly.
Horrors do not generate dispel dice.
Remove all the "super" banners.
Make siren song require a leadership test.
Remove the "no magic weapons work" aspect of the Armor of Khorne. Reduce its price.
Make Eternal Hatred include the hatred rule as well as rerolling all attacks.
Prohibit hero level casters from having access to full lores

swarmofseals
13-03-2009, 16:12
The only thing that I can think of with something close to that stat line, are sword masters of heoth, and they are only 15pts a model, but to find skulltaker by himself and all alone won't be easy.

Unfortunately close doesn't quite cut it -- it'll take an average of 54 attacks for swordmasters to bring down Skulltaker. Good luck with that =)

Assuming you can get 5 SMs in base to base with him (which seems unlikely, but again I don't know the exact base sizes) that's 10 attacks per turn, so you'll kill him after 6 turns on average. In that time Skulltaker will kill about 19 swordmasters (285 points worth vs his point cost of 200).


EDIT: BoR Oldblood has a pretty good shot (83% to kill, assuming the extra attack, 70% otherwise) on the charge.

slingersam
13-03-2009, 16:45
Unfortunately close doesn't quite cut it -- it'll take an average of 54 attacks for swordmasters to bring down Skulltaker. Good luck with that =)

Assuming you can get 5 SMs in base to base with him (which seems unlikely, but again I don't know the exact base sizes) that's 10 attacks per turn, so you'll kill him after 6 turns on average. In that time Skulltaker will kill about 19 swordmasters (285 points worth vs his point cost of 200).


EDIT: BoR Oldblood has a pretty good shot (83% to kill, assuming the extra attack, 70% otherwise) on the charge.

Sorry I read your post wrong, I thought you need 14.4 WS 5 str 5 attacks, not 14.4 ws 5 STR 7. So there was my mistake.

Anyway wondering is this deamon book new? Because I was looking at my SC
(lizardmen) Chakex, and for 360 points it won't even compete with the herald which I am finding hard to believe. That WS 9 is brutal.

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 16:48
I'd like to think that GW has unofficially admitted that Matt Ward is retarded but doesn't want to actually go public with this opinion and fix the glaring problems with his books.

O&G'sRule
13-03-2009, 16:51
I hate stats, they mean nothing to the real game or world. All this "average 54 attacks from sword masters" is nonsense as real life does not work like that. Anyway you don't need to kill him in the combat (Though my Black orcs with bannery of butchery have done it loads of times), if you kill whats round him, he'll lose combat and possibly die that way. Units with huge combat res are great for killing him. 3 ranks, std, musician, battle std, out number is capable of doing the job. might not every time, but thats the game. there should be no infalliable solution to him either.
Go toss a coin 100 times, see if it lands heads up even close to 50 times. stats mean nothing

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 17:03
Actually stats even out consistently over larger test groups which is why people use them all the time (flip that coin 1000 times and see how close to 50% it ends up being). Saying that "stats mean nothing" is pretty silly. Random events (like your Black Orcs killing Skulltakers unit) are much less likely to be an indicator of how something would go on average. Of course picking random fights the may or may not happen in an actually battle isn't a good indicator for statistical analysis.

Having said that, how are your Black Orcs charging skull taker when he has a 14" charge distance and they are using the butchery banner instead of the Waagh banner? If Skulltaker and his unit of bloodcrushers goes first I'm not sure how you have a front rank to fight back

XXL
13-03-2009, 17:08
Honestly, my fix for the daemon book (and I play daemons) would be that all units who aren't allied with the same god as your general cost 25% more points. You want a Bloodthirster, Plaguebearers, and Flamers? That's gonna cost you extra, since you gotta bribe them all to play nicely. That being said, I refuse to run special characters in my army- not that a kitted Herald of Khorne is that much worse than Skulltaker, but he's certainly more expensive.

I think this is a damn good comment, why ban stuff when you could make combos more costly instead...

O&G'sRule
13-03-2009, 17:09
well in fairness the ones ive play are usually in a bloodletter unit, though using the army waagh you can get a charge of 14" anyway with black orcs (amazing how often it happens when you need it, though it does usually balance out with my squigs failing 5 animosity tests in almost every game they play). If you screen your black orcs with a couple on night goblin units on either side with 6 fanatics, they can drive the daemon playing into being overly cautious too. leaving them open to the waagh assisted charge. there is always the waagh spell too on occasion
Obviously I overstated by saying stats are meaningless, but to claim something in this game is not touchable because the stats say so is just ridiculous and suggests they never actually play the game, just read the books and moan about the theory. yes very large test will find stats even out, but in a game/ fight with 15 dice? almost not a chance

Ixquic
13-03-2009, 17:11
See I agree that in a unit of Bloodletters he's not THAT bad since you can at least get the charge off like you did and mess up the unit. The problem is that they decided to let him have the option to be mounted which is how is is typically taken.

swarmofseals
13-03-2009, 17:12
I hate stats, they mean nothing to the real game or world. All this "average 54 attacks from sword masters" is nonsense as real life does not work like that. Anyway you don't need to kill him in the combat (Though my Black orcs with bannery of butchery have done it loads of times), if you kill whats round him, he'll lose combat and possibly die that way. Units with huge combat res are great for killing him. 3 ranks, std, musician, battle std, out number is capable of doing the job. might not every time, but thats the game. there should be no infalliable solution to him either.
Go toss a coin 100 times, see if it lands heads up even close to 50 times. stats mean nothing


Yes, clearly SCR is a better way of dealing with him. Someone else suggested that the way to deal with him is by attacking and killing in direct combat with single wound models. I was merely arguing that this idea is very, very silly as he is a lot harder defensively than that person was letting on.


With respect to probability, actually yes, real life does work like that. I didn't say it would always take exactly 54 attacks to kill him. It will take an AVERAGE of 54 attacks. In other words, sometimes it will take more and sometimes it will take less. If you want to charge into combat without considering the stats first and would rather count on an incredibly slim probability of getting the outcome you want I'd be fine with that. I'll be happy to win the vast majority of the time.

You just can't ignore stats and call them meaningless when playing a game that is so heavily dependent on dice rolling.

And yes, if you flip a coin 100 times you aren't going to get a guaranteed 50 heads and 50 tails. That said, the probability of given any particular outcome is going to fall along a bell curve with the peak right at a 50/50 split, so it's pretty unwise to count on an extreme outcome.

The same goes with swordmasters. Sure, the swordmasters COULD kill skulltaker in as few as 2 attacks. But it's not very likely.


EDIT: Nobody is saying that Skulltaker is untouchable. NOTHING in warhammer is untouchable. But for something to be imbalanced or overpowered it doesn't have to be untouchable. It just has to be REALLY REALLY hard to touch, which I think is a claim that my math supports.

O&G'sRule
13-03-2009, 17:16
I think this is a damn good comment, why ban stuff when you could make combos more costly instead...

I agree with it too, though just because it should be rare to find mixed armies. you could make all daemons other than your generals type rare choices too I'd guess.

O&G'sRule
13-03-2009, 17:27
See I agree that in a unit of Bloodletters he's not THAT bad since you can at least get the charge off like you did and mess up the unit. The problem is that they decided to let him have the option to be mounted which is how is is typically taken.

just be glad they didn't bring back Aarbal's old flesh hound with M10 and give him that;)

LKHERO
13-03-2009, 18:17
I don't see how not taking Kairos, Blue Scribes, Masque or Skulltaker will amend the fact that most Demon Lord/Hero configurations are equal to or better than the ones listed above.

Supreme Archon Orlok
13-03-2009, 18:37
If people hadn't noticed this already may I draw your attention to Skulltakers special killing blow rule, his killing blow takes affect on a 5+ against all enemy size only in a challenge otherwise it's just normal 6+.

Apologies if you already knew this.

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2009, 19:00
I don't see how not taking Kairos, Blue Scribes, Masque or Skulltaker will amend the fact that most Demon Lord/Hero configurations are equal to or better than the ones listed above.

I run pure Slaanesh, and I can tell you that Masque does things with her hips that no other girl can do for a fraction of the cost.

You absolutely can't build a Herald with more effect on the battle for anything even approximating her cost. If her abilities were bound spells, perhaps - but she's so cheap she's an absolute no-brainer. Yeah, my Herald on a steed with the Great Icon of Dispair is something to worry about make no mistake, but she's three times the cost of the Masque.

LKHERO
13-03-2009, 20:11
I run pure Slaanesh, and I can tell you that Masque does things with her hips that no other girl can do for a fraction of the cost.

You absolutely can't build a Herald with more effect on the battle for anything even approximating her cost. If her abilities were bound spells, perhaps - but she's so cheap she's an absolute no-brainer. Yeah, my Herald on a steed with the Great Icon of Dispair is something to worry about make no mistake, but she's three times the cost of the Masque.

That's one good example.

The other would be a Bloodthirster with Immortal Fury, Obsidian Armor and Firestorm Blade (out of the many possibilities) being vastly superior than Skarband.

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2009, 20:26
Perhaps so. The point is that banning Special Characters will at least help with trimming the power level down. Many other armies also have OTT special character (when was the last time you saw a "competitive" vampire army without Mannfred?). Not every special character is better than the best combo you can make with the generics, but some are. At least you can cut these out.

The price you pay, of course, is banning characters that are perfectly reasonable. Even worse, you can invalidate peoples armies if they are based around a character who affects the composition of the army.

Lijacote
13-03-2009, 20:38
Even worse, you can invalidate peoples armies if they are based around a character who affects the composition of the army.[/COLOR]

This is easily repaired, for example see the Master of Mortals daemonic gift from the old Hordes of Chaos book, switches mortals' and daemons' places in the army composition.

It's such a silly thing to do, making people who want to do a witch elf army/horde take Hellebron.

Then again, you can't sell items for 17.50EUR in a blister. Better to stick with special characters.

rottahn
13-03-2009, 21:46
the combination of daemon rules, and their points cost make them an incredible army, no matter what. it would take a rewrite of the armylist to make the army less abusive. even if you take mono-god armies it is hard to play against. however, since it is a legal army, i see no reason to unfairly use sportsmanship to lessen the army's performance.

that being said, skulltaker is WAY undercosted and should be errata'd.

LKHERO
13-03-2009, 22:58
even if you take mono-god armies it is hard to play against.

BT w/ Obsidian, Immortal and Firestorm
Herald w/ Firestorm, Armor of Khorne on Jugger
Herald w/ BSB w/ Standard of Sundering on Jugger
Skulltaker on Jugger

30x Bloodletters
20x Flesh Hounds

Mono-color army of complete and utter destruction. Even if you take out Skulltaker, just take another Herald and you will change very very little.

Lijacote
13-03-2009, 23:56
BT w/ Obsidian, Immortal and Firestorm
Herald w/ Firestorm, Armor of Khorne on Jugger
Herald w/ BSB w/ Standard of Sundering on Jugger
Skulltaker on Jugger

30x Bloodletters
20x Flesh Hounds

Ah yes, a typical daemon army! Maxing out on specials and characters... this must mean that a more balanced daemon army army would be just as broken!

Say, larger units of bloodletters, less characters, less flesh hounds... broken, beyond repair! All hope is lost.

Talonz
14-03-2009, 00:05
Seperate issue;

Special characters are often overpowered or undercosted, DOC versions are no exception.

DOC will still be overpowered or undercosted without their special characters.

Storak
14-03-2009, 00:10
I hate stats, they mean nothing to the real game or world. All this "average 54 attacks from sword masters" is nonsense as real life does not work like that. Anyway you don't need to kill him in the combat (Though my Black orcs with bannery of butchery have done it loads of times), if you kill whats round him, he'll lose combat and possibly die that way. Units with huge combat res are great for killing him. 3 ranks, std, musician, battle std, out number is capable of doing the job. might not every time, but thats the game. there should be no infalliable solution to him either.
Go toss a coin 100 times, see if it lands heads up even close to 50 times. stats mean nothing

sorry, but those black orcs will fail nearly every time. you only have a chance of killing him, when you strike first. neither 12 S5 attacks, nor 8 S6 (4 orcs in base contact..)ones have a serious chance of killing him. (5+ to hit, 2+ or 3+ save....)

your full unit is much more expensive that he is, and still might lose. your BSB (why would you place it in the black orc units???) costs as much as he does, and skulltaker will eat him for breakfast..

------

there is a serious problem with all those "hero" level daemon chars. most of them would still be very useful, when you add 100 points to their cost.

they all completely change the gaming environment. pretty strong, for basically 100 points each...

Grimbrow
14-03-2009, 01:33
"I hate stats, they mean nothing to the real game or world. All this "average 54 attacks from sword masters" is nonsense as real life does not work like that"

Real life works exactly like that, on average. It's called probability. Oh, and serious scorn toward the coin comment - try tossing it a million times - i'll bet heads isn't that far from 500,000.

O&G'sRule
14-03-2009, 02:59
you're not rolling a million dice you are probably rolling 10-15. Anyone that plays the game must realise the whole probability thing is seriously flawed.can't be bothered to answer the rest

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2009, 03:39
you're not rolling a million dice you are probably rolling 10-15. Anyone that plays the game must realise the whole probability thing is seriously flawed.can't be bothered to answer the rest

That just shows you don't understand probability theory. If you do Mathhammer right, you can predict what the probabilities of outlandish events are too. It works just as well for 10 dice as a million as one.

Besides, when talking about "game balance", what we're talking about is not just all the dice rolled in one game, we're talking about all the dice rolled by all the players. That is millions.

fluffstalker
14-03-2009, 05:08
To quote, I think is it catbarfs sig, correct me if im wrong,

"For those who think mathammer doesnt work and that dice cannot be predicted, theres a whole field of mathematics called probability that would like to disagree."

Obviously if you try to play the whole game based on predicted dice, youll fail, as nothing happens in a vacuum. But when it comes to considering combats, and unit x versus unit y, its actually useful to know the averages. Yes, magic and shooting factor in, but if you go into a game with a good understanding of what units you will crush on the charge with your units and what units will hold on average, you have an advantage over your opponent who hasnt considered the numbers.

Archaon
14-03-2009, 08:23
Bending probabilities to your side is at the core of the entire game.

When you assemble your troops and position them in favorable sections of the battleterrain you are bending probabilities.

You probably won't place a unit of lightly armored,slow T3 troops in front of a unit of Flamers of Tzeentch as you know they'll have no realistic chance of ever defeating the Flamers. If possible you'll either go for heavily armored, fast troops and hope for the best or, if available, Dragon Princes which are immune to flaming attacks.

The entire game works that way.. have the best troops possible for a certain situation and hope that you roll average (or maybe slightly below average if that's enough).

Reality is that sometimes Halfling archers beat Fleshounds of Khorne in close combat and run them down afterwards or Snotlings defeat Chaos Knights and run them down too (seen that happen).

As to the whole original discussion:

The troops themselves are either too hard or too cheap which is the core of the problems. Add to that the possibilities of normal characters with the right mix of gifts/items and you will see why Demons built with min/maxing in mind are one of the hardest, if not the hardest, army to beat currently.

As other have said Demon Special Characters usually take normal characters and add a level of power to it for a moderate or only slight points increase which only further advances the imbalance of the entire army.

I like to play against the Demons of my friend because he keeps it civil.. hard but he doesn't play tournament style when we have a friendly game.
At tournaments they are hell to play against and mostly no fun.. the player may be a nice guy but the army, at least for me, is breaking the entire game.
It's no coincidence that many tournament organizers have special chapters on restrictions for Demon players.. the community seems to agree that Demons are broken and need to be fixed to bring them down to the powerlevel of the rest.

Alathir
14-03-2009, 08:50
It MIGHT help but Special Characters are not the main problem. The whole thing is a bit ludicrous.

Kalec
14-03-2009, 08:55
The idea that banning all special characters is a good idea because a few are broken is idiocy. I still don't understand why people keep touting such a moronic idea as a solution to anything.

Lazarus15
16-03-2009, 03:51
To quote, I think is it catbarfs sig, correct me if im wrong,

"For those who think mathammer doesnt work and that dice cannot be predicted, theres a whole field of mathematics called probability that would like to disagree."

Obviously if you try to play the whole game based on predicted dice, youll fail, as nothing happens in a vacuum. But when it comes to considering combats, and unit x versus unit y, its actually useful to know the averages. Yes, magic and shooting factor in, but if you go into a game with a good understanding of what units you will crush on the charge with your units and what units will hold on average, you have an advantage over your opponent who hasnt considered the numbers.


The only problem is that the margin of error on 10-15 dice is HUGE. Yes you are right in the fact that it is good to know that you have a tactical advantage. Yesterday I played against a Nurgle list with my eldar and penetrated 4 tanks no less than 3 times each in two turns along with 1-2 glances per tank. In both of those turns, picking up different dice I did not roll above a two. Such is the chance of the game.