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CaliforniaGamer
12-03-2009, 19:25
Issue came up in another thread: Can a VC lord whose unit charges a lone character such as a thirster, is challenged by the thirster, rejects the challenge, is then moved the rear of the unit, use his helm of command THAT CC phase from the rear of the unit since he is no longer in base to base contact with the enemy?

that is hugely impactful nuissanced ability I doubt many people realize.

Modaavi
12-03-2009, 19:29
I believe the rule is that a character retired from a challenge and not in the front rank can not use any magic items. Now this wording does leave many things, such as magic banners, up to interpretation, but the Helm of Commandment is clearly an item that must be used, since you have to nominate a target unit for it. In this case I would say you most certainly can not use it in that CC.

Malorian
12-03-2009, 19:49
Well the book says that command that are not in the front rank lose their abilities, but I'm not sure if it also says that about characters.

My feeling right now is that you could do that, but I'd have to check.

(Let me also say that a bloodthirster that charges a unit with a character in it and issues a challenge is an idiot.)

explorator
12-03-2009, 21:36
Pg. 73 BRB Says a character in the back ranks cannot fight, use magic, or use magic items.

Modaavi
12-03-2009, 22:50
Yes that is exactly the rule I was thinking of. Thanks explorator. :)

the_picto
13-03-2009, 00:06
Ah, but characters that refuse a challenge don't have to go to the back rank. They just have to go to a position where they can't fight. A monster base charging a unit 5 wide would leave one unengaged model on the end. Put the vampire there and the helm is usable.

Shamfrit
13-03-2009, 00:10
Does the item not specify 'unless engaged in combat?'

Surely this would apply if the Vampire is in the unit, in the same way certain spells would?

He might not be swinging his sword but he's certainly occupied with not getting stabbed in the face.

Godgolden
13-03-2009, 02:51
put it this way, if you decline a challenge he acts as a rank and file in the back rank, just a space filler

but its still better than loosing your general to a thirster as VC can raise bodys, one of the only armys that can tar pit a thirster and win.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 03:27
Okay, heres the dealio,

a)according to the VC faq, you can use the ring if the vampire is in a unit in combat but the vampire himself is not in base-to-base.

b)according to the rulebook, characters not in the first rank can't use magic items.

c)according to the rulebook, the character refusing the challenge can be placed anywhere that he isn't in base-to-base with an enemy.


Bloodthirster challenges.
Vampire Counts player elects not to accept.
Daemon player nominates the Vampire.

Now, according to c) the vampire player can put them anywhere in the unit not in Base-to-base, but according to b) if you don't put him in the first rank, he cant use items.....however according to a) if you do have a spot to put him in the first rank he CAN indeed use his item.



in conclusion, if your unit is 5 models wide, yes, yes you can. Shame on that bloodthirster for challenging.

nosferatu1001
13-03-2009, 07:34
THe question being: why didnt the VC player challenge with the unit champion?

Just keep reraising the champion, while not losing ranks. Extract the vamp from the unit so helm works again...

Gazak Blacktoof
13-03-2009, 11:23
How would you extract the vampire from the unit?

Braad
13-03-2009, 11:34
You can't. A character cannot move from a unit when the unit is engaged in combat (according to page 73, second to last paragraph, last sentence).

Also, page 77 explains what a character can and cannot do: "...after refusing a challenge may not fight or do anything that else that turn and loses all of its advantages..."
So, you cannot use a magic item.
The same sentence also refers to the rules for characters that are not in the front rank, but the bit I quoted above already defines the terms for refusing a challenge, it doesn't matter where you are: you refused, so you can't do anything. The reference is placed because the other bit describes in more detail what you cannot do as a result, and GW doesn't like to repeat itself since the book is already very big.

Gazak Blacktoof
13-03-2009, 11:41
That's what I thought but I don't own the VC book so I imagined they might have some escape-artist trick I wasn't aware of.

explorator
13-03-2009, 12:39
Okay, heres the dealio,

a)according to the VC faq, you can use the ring if the vampire is in a unit in combat but the vampire himself is not in base-to-base.

b)according to the rulebook, characters not in the first rank can't use magic items.

c)according to the rulebook, the character refusing the challenge can be placed anywhere that he isn't in base-to-base with an enemy.


Bloodthirster challenges.
Vampire Counts player elects not to accept.
Daemon player nominates the Vampire.

Now, according to c) the vampire player can put them anywhere in the unit not in Base-to-base, but according to b) if you don't put him in the first rank, he cant use items.....however according to a) if you do have a spot to put him in the first rank he CAN indeed use his item.



in conclusion, if your unit is 5 models wide, yes, yes you can. Shame on that bloodthirster for challenging.


You can't. A character cannot move from a unit when the unit is engaged in combat (according to page 73, second to last paragraph, last sentence).

Also, page 77 explains what a character can and cannot do: "...after refusing a challenge may not fight or do anything that else that turn and loses all of its advantages..."
So, you cannot use a magic item.
The same sentence also refers to the rules for characters that are not in the front rank, but the bit I quoted above already defines the terms for refusing a challenge, it doesn't matter where you are: you refused, so you can't do anything. The reference is placed because the other bit describes in more detail what you cannot do as a result, and GW doesn't like to repeat itself since the book is already very big.

Thanks Braad. Yeah, the rules are scattered, but they are there. The restrictions placed on 'retired' characters outlined on pg. 77 clearly refer to the rules for characters that are not in the front rank. It does not matter if the retired character is in the front rank or not, he follows the rules for characters not in the front rank, and he may not use any magic items.

EvC
13-03-2009, 14:02
Yep, if you refuse a challenge, the model counts as being in the rear ranks for whether he can use magic items or whatever, so no Helm of Commandment after a refusal.

nosferatu1001
13-03-2009, 15:03
Ok, he cant escape the unit (unless Skaven i think...) but he can at least kep the challenge going. That was the main point - you don't need to kill the bllood thirster with your unit, just keep him pinned while you get a rear charge etc and kill through combat res.

Lord Yawgmoth
13-03-2009, 15:43
Clearly i was mistaken.

So, no go then.

PxDn Ninja
13-03-2009, 21:39
What about this situation. Unit of Skellies with a Vamp wearing the Helm are charged by an enemy unit of whatever. A challenge is issued, and the Vampire accepts. That gets resolved first and formost, followed by the remaining units in the fight. If the vampire kills his opponent in the challenge, then is he still in combat, or is he able to use his helm as the challenge removed the the unit to unit combat. Technically the Vampire isn't in CC at the time because his opponent was killed. I do know that if there were two combats (skellies fighting something, and nearby ghouls fighting something else) and the Vampires unit destroys its opponent, then the Vampire can use the helm on the other unit (if it is in range) that same combat phase, but not sure if that translates to this situation as well. I'm betting no, but just thought about it as I read the thread.

Daleran
13-03-2009, 22:27
during a challenge the models are still considered to be a part of the whole combat, so even if he kills his opponent in the challenge he is still part of the unit in combat, and therefore still in combat. Unless his unit manages to kill all of the enemy unit while he wins his challenge in which case none of the unit is in combat.

PxDn Ninja
13-03-2009, 23:27
during a challenge the models are still considered to be a part of the whole combat, so even if he kills his opponent in the challenge he is still part of the unit in combat, and therefore still in combat. Unless his unit manages to kill all of the enemy unit while he wins his challenge in which case none of the unit is in combat.


Yeah, that is what I was thinking, but without the book to look things up I wasn't sure. Nonetheless if you have a hero or lord with this helm on, he shouldn't be in combat anyhow. He should be behind a massive group of skellies or zombies and marching a wall of death.