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Kelderaith
12-03-2009, 23:55
Hi everyone. Like most people, I don't quite know what army to start with in Fantasy. I tested out the system (being a 40k player) with Daemons of Chaos (basically basing them with square base for dual system) and found it quite interesting. I am currently in the process of selling my Daemons, as I am kind of bored with them in 40k, and plainly dislike their playing style in Fantasy.

Now, quite a few armies interests me in Fantasy; Wood Elf, Dark Elves, Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts, Dwarves, O&G and Empire.

Since I basically quited playing Daemon because I found them to be way to much overpowered (thus offering me absolutely no tactical challenge*) I want an army who is considered a bit more "underdog".

After much deliberation, I am now in a more "manageable" dilemma, I hesitate between Dwarves, Empire and O&G.

What interest me in Dwarves are the throngs, basically, a heavy infantry army. Unfortunately, through browsing this site and the army book itself, this army type seems to play completely to the disadvantage of the Dwarves, and even the stardard that make them do a free move in their first turn seem not to be the best solution for them. It seems that for such an army, you are basically shoe-horned into playing an Anvil of Doom, which doesn't please me at all.

For the O&G part, I basically just love Night Goblin and all derivative. I really do like them a lot though, Night Goblin regiment with fanatics, squig herds, squig hoppers and pump wagon as rare seems to be a blast to play (lead by Skarsnik). I find the army to be lacking a sort of "follow up" though, since as soon as you have around 2000/2500 pts, you pretty much filled the army with what you truly like and I really despise orc models (except Black Orcs). As such, I think O&G would be better for a small 2nd fantasy army and not my main army as such.

Finally, Empire, the army for which I strongly lean to at the moment. Problem? Well I would like to play an infantry army of Nuln, which means relatively Gunline-ish. Now I was pretty set on this venue but when I saw the topic of "Most Hated Army" and sooooo many people voting "Gunline" that kind of made me hesitate. Would a gunline army without any cavalry, steam tank, war altar nor special character be that cheesy? I planned on using 2 cannons, 1 mortar, 1 helblaster volley gun, around 20 handgunners and 10 crossbowmen in 2000 pts, expending to 3000 pts would add no warmachines nor much ranged troops but I wanted to know what people thought about such an army before actually buying anything, as I want my army to be fun to play with and against. (I will post an army list if I see I receive relatively good/positive comments about that).

The positive point about Empire is that I pretty much like everything in the list, which would be a good main army for Fantasy since I could further expend my army into various different ways afterward.

I am eagerly awaiting comments on any of my questions/reflections on those army.

*By no tactical challenge I mean like... reading the codex, not even going on forums or anything, playing an horrible (meaning very bad army list) and beating a semi-experienced players by 1500 VP on a 2000 game as my first game ever of WHF... I was like... wtf?

stonetroll
13-03-2009, 00:06
Well, as a (somewhat) seasoned O&G player, I can tell you that they definately fall into the category of the underdog :p. They are a low Ld army, who's efficiency is largely determined by randomness (animosity, squig hoppers, netters, giants... the list goes on and on). This randomness seems fun at first sight, but gets annoying after a while (at least it does for me). The randomness of the army only increases with the amount of goblins you put in it.

It is a fun army to model and paint, but (imho) not so much to play IN THE LONG RUN.

Daemons is a bit point and click as you stated (no matter which units you choose).

Empire is a decenlty competing army if played the way you want to play it (gunline). And I don't think that your army is very cheesy at all. But think about how you would feel if your enemy woulld be like "ok, I'm just going to stand here and shoot you to bits, if you manage to charge me on T2, I loose and we play again". I think that is what makes gunlines a hated army, not their overpowerd-ness.

my 2 cents

Godfiend
13-03-2009, 00:47
Your list idea for Empire is a little gun-heavy, but a the most hated gunlines sport only a couple of melee units. You'll have a much easier time incorporating melee combat into an Empire list than Dwarves, as the stunties are a bit too slow to make mass blocks worthwhile. O&G have a wide variety of units, so you can technically play just about any list you want with 'em, but you'll have a somewhat more difficult time getting wins (it's by no means impossible, but not for the faint-hearted).

I'd suggest you take another look at Dark Elves, and perhaps Lizardmen, as they might suit your mixed style a bit. Empire is a solid choice, still, and your basic list idea is really only a little gun-heavy.

Talonz
13-03-2009, 00:53
Empire, the army for which I strongly lean to at the moment.

That's your answer.

Having guns doesn't make you a gunline. It makes you have an army with shooting. So long as you also have melee units and seek to engage after a certain point, you are not a 'gunline'.

Stuffburger
13-03-2009, 04:59
4 war machines and 30 ranged troops is fairly tame for a gunline, as far as I can tell, a lot of people would call it "shooting heavy" instead. Drop 10 handgunners and no one would even bat an eyelash.

Go for it, empire seems good for you. And they are one of the more versatile armies out there if you decide to go for a new build.

Kelderaith
13-03-2009, 05:48
Thanks a lot for your comments guys, really happy to see it is not that bad. I created a thread in the army list section and posted the list I thought of. If you want to comment on it here's the link : http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188009

Thanks again everyone to take the time to help a Fantasy newbie ^^

Bloodhunter
13-03-2009, 10:27
If you lean to Empire I think that you have chosen already, and it'a a very good choose.
Build your army, play it and if you thik that is much gunline add knights, swordsmen, ect, ect...
With Empire you can play the way you want (more or less :p)

The Red Scourge
13-03-2009, 10:42
Since you wanted a tactical challenge, then a gunline might not be, what you're looking for.

Basically its about standing still, see the enemy advance, pick up dice, good rolls = win, bad rolls = lose. Most tactical part of the game will be, when you place terrain and deploy.

But when you grow tired of this, empire has many great and varied options for expansion and tactics – but if your artillery becomes your crutch, you'll soon whine about how underpowered your army is :)

garythewargamer
13-03-2009, 14:59
One thing I like about Empire is their attachments. They can field a big army and still place everyone fairly quickly. I had one army that got down before my daughters HE army. She has 1 archer, 2 spearmen, lion chariot, RBT, war eagle, and sword masters. All that was left was characters.
Drop one cannon and watch your detachments. Your artillery can be awesome to face but you have to have your range guessing down first.

Braad
13-03-2009, 15:59
What's wrong with orcs?

Personally I find nothing boring, lacking follow-up or whatever about O&G. Its true, sometimes the randomness of some stuff can be a bit annoying, but since I play all types of orcs, goblins and snotlings, but also trolls, giants etc. in random lists, sometimes themed, sometimes not, I find this army stays fun for a long time.

Though if you don't like orcs, that excludes already a quite large part.

That leaves you with dwarves and empire. I think I would go for empire given only these two. My guess is that they give more tactical abilities with horsemen, fast cavalry, detachments, and all this mixed up with blocks of core and warmachine.
From what I know from the dwarven armylist, they have less possibilities, with mainly blocks, warmachines, and only miners and gyrocopters as the more weird units. If you like blocks, you can create those with both armies, however if you want some more speed and/or variety, then the empire gives more options.

When is something a gunline? When most of the stuff you do each turn is shooting, and the enemy gets grinded to nothing before they are halfway the table. Often, this kind of gameplay gets boring for you quite easy, and for the dying party this happens even sooner, as most people prefer some close combat.
I always see ranged units in this game as support for the other troops. So nothing wrong with cannons, handgunners, rocket batteries and the likes, but if you stick to something like a 1:1 ratio for ranged vs close combat units, then you are on the safe side. This adds tactical aspects to the game, as it is not simply point and click at the juiciest target, but you have to decide which units you attempt to protect taking away their threats, and which not.

Talonz
13-03-2009, 18:59
Its interesting that his first army list is all infantry and warmachines. Dwarves can do that in spades. But if you want to add anything else? Empire, absolutely.

Just curious if infantry and warmachines are what most attracts the OP, and whether he can find anyone with a bfsp dwarf army to try them out....

Kelderaith
13-03-2009, 19:23
Yah the basis of my army will be infantry and warmachine, but since I planned to start up with a relatively big army as my first army (and that I quite like pretty much all the Empire list), I can easily add pistolier, knights and such to add diversity eventually, while I find Dwarves to be lacking in further development like that.

Plus, while I quite like Dwarves throng, I just find empire troop and detachment flavourful being mostly "underdog" but that play wisely to get the job done instead of just being an unmovable ubject (while this concept is still very cool in itself indeed).

SuperArchMegalon
13-03-2009, 22:11
Plus, while I quite like Dwarves throng, I just find empire troop and detachment flavourful being mostly "underdog" but that play wisely to get the job done instead of just being an unmovable ubject (while this concept is still very cool in itself indeed).

Well, I wouldn't call Empire and "underdog" (if I understood your post correctly), especially compared to Dwarfs. I collect Dwarfs, they're probably my favorite army. However they are not good for noobs, because they don't teach you the whole game. Empire is perfect for that, good luck.

Talonz
13-03-2009, 22:13
Well there you go then, a very definitive choice for Empire then.

Good luck, it was my first army too and i like them for all the reasons you mentioned!