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snr. officer obsordian
13-03-2009, 04:31
so as the title says im having some trouble against daemons with my ig. it just seems that i cant kill them fast enough before they get to me, especially those damned plaguebearers. any suggestions?

souljaking09
13-03-2009, 04:41
bolster your lines with ogryns and plasmas along with some command squads armed with CCW. that's the thing about guard, you must have some type of close combat troops.

decker_cky
13-03-2009, 05:24
Any kind of pie plate attack is incredible against the deepstriking (so russes, basilisks and demolishers) along with things like mortars and missile launchers (low AP isn't a problem). Demolishers are particularly good against plague bearers (either shooting the pie plate at close range, or plasma sponsons and lascannon at 36") since it denies them feel no pain. Any sort of low AP weaponry only really needs to target nurgle FNP stuff, iron hide units like bloodcrushers, and soul grinders (since the low AP usually is high strength). Other things you'll want to target weight of fire against.

Having a few infiltrators spread out during deployment can be useful to disrupt ideal deep striking spots (so if you have a few units of vets or light infantry, take full advantage).

Obviously the deep striking and reserve rolls can lead to a lot of different scenarios, but in general, keep the pressure up and try to keep fire lanes open to places you'd consider ideal deep striking threats.

Donblas
13-03-2009, 05:29
you can at about 2000 points on a normal field take nothing but inflitrators then spread each one 2 inches apart across the entire field can also be done with kroot the entire field is then filled with men the daemons deepstrike fail roll on mishap table and repeat till all the forces are dead its a jerk maneover but hell so is playing demons so who cares :) but really pie plates are your best bet the russ really earns its points if you castle correctly.

Hicks
13-03-2009, 05:31
bolster your lines with ogryns and plasmas along with some command squads armed with CCW. that's the thing about guard, you must have some type of close combat troops.

If you have access to them, Grey Knight Terminators could help.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2009, 05:44
so as the title says im having some trouble against daemons with my ig. it just seems that i cant kill them fast enough before they get to me, especially those damned plaguebearers. any suggestions?

For the time being (another five weeks or so), the only recourse is to hope for extremely bad dice luck on your opponent's part. I don't see any way how IG could beat Daemons otherwise. Russes simpy bounce off of FNP, lasguns bounce off of T5+ and plasma has little impact on the inv saves. Coupled with the generally unconventional nature of Daemons, access to fast stuff, relatively many multiwounders, immunity to ID, ItP and such, they're simply playing in another league.

Edit: Shouldn't this be in Tactics?

Born Again
13-03-2009, 05:49
its a jerk maneover but hell so is playing demons so who cares :) .

Care to explain why exactly? :confused:

Donblas
13-03-2009, 06:01
explain what tabling demons without even playing or playing demons? If its the tabling the demons without playing well you defeat the purpose of the game cause you dont need to play. And demons are demons i swear the chaos gods suddenly getting along like they are the best of friends made me a sad panda :(. that and i hate the all deepstriking army its just a boring fight my army castles they drop i shoot either they die or they get into close combat and stab my poor guardians in the face which makes me a sadder panda poor guardians just dont do well against bloodletters.

laudarkul
13-03-2009, 06:56
I would say lot of firepower...In a 1500 pts you can have 2-3 tanks (Demolishers if you have points) and some enough infantry to give them a lot of fire. Ok the losses could be tremendous but you can win by force them to make a lot's of saves.

Devil Tree
13-03-2009, 07:50
Try taking a LR Demolisher. That’ll get rid of his Plague Bearers really quick. Even if it doesn’t do anything, it has the potential of scaring them off to the sidelines, effectively neutralizing them. You can also try feeling them a single unit of guardsmen each turn. They’re too slow to get around them, so they won’t be causing trouble in your lines. Of course if they have an icon, their friends might.

the1stpip
13-03-2009, 08:17
As above, and I tend to keep two units of Rough Riders in reserve to deal with anything I can't shoot.

Darnok
13-03-2009, 08:58
explain what tabling demons without even playing or playing demons? If its the tabling the demons without playing well you defeat the purpose of the game cause you dont need to play. And demons are demons i swear the chaos gods suddenly getting along like they are the best of friends made me a sad panda :(. that and i hate the all deepstriking army its just a boring fight my army castles they drop i shoot either they die or they get into close combat and stab my poor guardians in the face which makes me a sadder panda poor guardians just dont do well against bloodletters.

It's hard to get your point. Using some proper grammar would definetely help.

What I got so far is: the current list doesn't fit your very personal interpretation of the Chaos background, and the tactics used against you are nothing but "get down and hit 'em with a (demonic) stick", while you yourself do nothing but castle up.
To me that looks like being much more your fault than the books. I won't go into a background discussion, believe what you want to believe. But in the tactics department: what about not sitting around as one chunk of guys waiting for stuff to shoot? What about thinking of a better setup? Daemons are played best with proper micro management of its units, so set up a proper challenge for that. You choosing a cheap way out of it is not the books (or even the Daemons players) fault.

Hamarpain
13-03-2009, 09:40
Pray that your enemy uses Slaaneesh and Tzeentch. I´ve beaten friends army with only one basilisk, one centaur filled with four meltaguns and lots platoons with missile launcher, no special weapons. Lost like 7 guardsmen.
Trick is to concentrate fire on one unit at the time. If he has plague bearers, ignore them until everything else is gone.

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2009, 09:46
The major problem with plaguebearers is that they will sit on 1+ objective(s), possibly in good cover, and go to ground all game long two thirds of the time, and simply not give up a KP another third of the time. It takes serious concentrated firepower to dislodge them. While a demolisher would be a start, it will have immense problems keeping its aim or even staying in range with a couple of Greater Daemons bearing down on it.


Care to explain why exactly? :confused:

Why explain the obvious? :confused: :eyebrows:


It's hard to get your point. Using some proper grammar would definetely help.


With regard to why filling every possible spot on the table is a jerk maneouvre, I think it is self-explanatory, provided that the aim of a game is to play a game.



But in the tactics department: what about not sitting around as one chunk of guys waiting for stuff to shoot? What about thinking of a better setup?


That is a very bad idea. Castling up is the best defense - and only defense is a viable option to start with - as one can concentrate and support everything. I'm surprised you call that a "cheap way out". Many people have thought much about a better setup, and so far, no-one has come up with one.

Darnok
13-03-2009, 09:56
Castling up is the best defense - and only defense is a viable option to start with - as one can concentrate and support everything. I'm surprised you call that a "cheap way out". Many people have thought much about a better setup, and so far, no-one has come up with one.

From an IG point of view that might be right, but the poster in question is playing Eldar (at least I take it that way when he talks about his "poor guardians"). And Eldar have better options at their hands. But that is not the topic of this thread...

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2009, 10:01
From an IG point of view that might be right, but the poster in question is playing Eldar (at least I take it that way when he talks about his "poor guardians"). And Eldar have better options at their hands. But that is not the topic of this thread...

True, Eldar have some aces up their sleeves and are a relatively tough nut for daemons to crack.

IG however must resign itself to a loss for a few more weeks.

Darnok
13-03-2009, 10:09
IG however must resign itself to a loss for a few more weeks.

:D

Is it really that bad at the moment? I'd think with some pie plates, a proper first gunline and some set countercharges it should be possible to not only give a good fight, but win it too.

And I'm very interested in what options the new codex brings. If it is anywhere near the Ork one, the Imperial Guard will have some fine toys to play with, and will also have more to do than just sit around and wait for the enemy.

the_picto
13-03-2009, 11:09
Castleing up is all very good if you are playing anihilation, but not so good in the 2 objective based missions. Daemons could drop right onto the objectives and then you have to go to them. Also, soulgrinders love it when you put your amry in one big group.

If you're playing eldar, then lots of tanks will give deamons headaches. We have very little long ranged anti tank and not much that can catch a fast skimmer.

IG can put out enough firepower to reduce a daemon player to tears as his army gets shot to pieces as it deepstrikes in.

Born Again
13-03-2009, 11:45
explain what tabling demons without even playing or playing demons? If its the tabling the demons without playing well you defeat the purpose of the game cause you dont need to play. And demons are demons i swear the chaos gods suddenly getting along like they are the best of friends made me a sad panda :(. that and i hate the all deepstriking army its just a boring fight my army castles they drop i shoot either they die or they get into close combat and stab my poor guardians in the face which makes me a sadder panda poor guardians just dont do well against bloodletters.

I second Darnok's grammar comment.

I was just trying to clarify why you thought a person choosing to play daemons is a jerk maneuver. It seems it's because you don't know how to beat them, hence don't like them, and hence people playing them must be jerks. Which isn't really a good outlook and you should be trying different things to beat them.

snr. officer obsordian
13-03-2009, 11:49
well the problem that i really have is that even though i do have all these things including 2 leman russ and a demolisher he just runs with his guys as soon as they come in from deepstrike spreading out all his guys and then all my templates only hit 5-6 guys if they dont scatter.

Angelus Mortis
13-03-2009, 11:55
Probably the best solution is to take a GK GM w/retinue as a HQ choice, and an DH =I= as an Elite choice and fill out their retinue. Pay close attention to DH wargear and Psychic powers when do so. Particularly with a shooty =I= retinue and a pair of Mystics. This can really pay off against deepstriking daemons when you have a Hellhound or Demolisher right next to them.

Barring that, pie plates, templates and Rough Riders are a solution if planned properly and barring the dice gods hating you.

Earthbeard
13-03-2009, 12:02
you can at about 2000 points on a normal field take nothing but inflitrators then spread each one 2 inches apart across the entire field can also be done with kroot the entire field is then filled with men the daemons deepstrike fail roll on mishap table and repeat till all the forces are dead its a jerk maneover but hell so is playing demons so who cares :) but really pie plates are your best bet the russ really earns its points if you castle correctly.

You win idiot post of the day award - Congrats.

@OP
Focus fire and not to bunch is key for Guard Vs Daemons I think, a nice spread of weaponry is always nice too.

My list tends to bulk out on cheaper Special weapons like GL's and flamers, mortars, hvy bolters.

The key with daemons is making them take saves, they are generally poor overall, so weight of shots always makes the difference.

Stay focused and keep faith in the Emperor and truimph shall be yours.

Brucopeloso
13-03-2009, 12:11
well the problem that i really have is that even though i do have all these things including 2 leman russ and a demolisher he just runs with his guys as soon as they come in from deepstrike spreading out all his guys and then all my templates only hit 5-6 guys if they dont scatter.

Pie plates are good against daemons that do not run after deep striking, if they run and spread out then the heavy bolters on the russ are your friends!

In general daemons handle sigle high strength attacks pretty well while small arms fire does really bad things to them. In that regard guard is well equipped to handle them.

Another thing you may try is to use sentinels, they are pretty good with a heavy flamer and if you get to charge any daemon with str3 is a good laugh (for you).

Oh, did anybody mention hellounds? Hellounds are great and not just agianst daemons!

Donblas
13-03-2009, 15:17
Woot win idiot post of the day, good to know I can do something right when drunk. First off I try not to play Eldar cheese ergo i do not run around with skimmers I play fairly balanced. As for my reason for hating daemons it is really only fluffed based they are not a hard fight over all, except for fantasy :(.

As for IG beating them gun line is my favorite tons of Lasguns with Autocannon supports makes demons very unhappy all but soul grinders which eat the two lascannons i have sitting around. I have like 2000 points of Tanith not the best army in game terms but rule of cool :)

And for people who have nothing better to do then correct others grammer. I would like to point out that English is not everyones first language so it can take awhile to insure all its silly little rules are followed fully. but hell my grammer does suck so ehhh me likes them pretty letters that done well apear on the screen :) But alas english is my first language <--------- product of american public education system pity me dont mock :(

Captain Micha
13-03-2009, 15:36
Buy the Daemonhunters Codex and buy yourself some Grey Knights to ally with your guard.

sneb
13-03-2009, 15:38
don't daemons get sustained attack or something when fighting grey knights?

Captain Micha
13-03-2009, 15:40
don't daemons get sustained attack or something when fighting grey knights?

I don't remember seeing anything involving Grey Knights in the Daemons codex I've only looked through it a couple times though so I won't swear to anything, but I do know the GKs get special rules -against- Daemons.

Angelus Mortis
13-03-2009, 15:40
Buy the Daemonhunters Codex and buy yourself some Grey Knights to ally with your guard.

I agree. This is a best solution really. Dealing with them from the IG list is problematic no matter what and dependant on luck and not making a single mistake. Toss some Inquisitors and Grey Knights in the mix and then it changes things dramatically. Sure, let him deepstrike and assault Grey Knights or a squad GK can reach next turn. He will regret it.

sneb
13-03-2009, 15:43
I don't remember seeing anything involving Grey Knights in the Daemons codex I've only looked through it a couple times though so I won't swear to anything, but I do know the GKs get special rules -against- Daemons.

I think its in the daemon hunter codex under the adversaries section or something , I haven't had a DH codex in about 4 years but I remember reading that and thinking "wow cool"

Marshal Sinclair
13-03-2009, 15:46
I know this is anal RAWism, but does anything in the Daemons Codex have a special rule stating they are Daemons, like the old 3.5ed Daemons did? If not, then the GK special rules do not apply to them.

Awilla the Hun
13-03-2009, 16:15
If you need to access other peoples' codices to get the right equipment, you know there is something wrong with your army.

My advice? I haven't played against them, but they seem fragile. Drown them in a human wave! All those cheap infantry platoons pouring rapid lasfire, grenades, flames, heavy bolter shells etc as they come out of the warp sounds like a good start (with a few heavier weapons to take the soul grinders and bigger ones.)

SPYDER68
13-03-2009, 16:25
Take an inq squad out of Deamonhunter codex...

Give them 3x mystic, 3x acolyte.. 2x sage 3x Warriors with heavy bolters. (acolyte's wariors and sages are optional)

Set a demolisher beside the squad.

Take a free demolisher shot everytime a unit deep strikes close, before they are able to run and spread out.

SPYDER68
13-03-2009, 16:27
If you need to access other peoples' codices to get the right equipment, you know there is something wrong with your army.

My advice? I haven't played against them, but they seem fragile. Drown them in a human wave! All those cheap infantry platoons pouring rapid lasfire, grenades, flames, heavy bolter shells etc as they come out of the warp sounds like a good start (with a few heavier weapons to take the soul grinders and bigger ones.)


Vs daemons it is rough for some...

30x plaguegearers first wave with icons... Followed bye a swarm of Flamers and Soulgrinders / nurgle greater deamons.....

its hard to kill that many fearless T5 5+ inv save feel no pain models.

Grazzy
13-03-2009, 16:33
The Daemonhunter inquisitor is your best bet. Give him 2 mystic and sit him next to a shooty unit which can then get free shots against deepstriking daemons or make the retinue itself shooty with plasma/HB and a psycannon.

Angelus Mortis
13-03-2009, 17:18
Take an inq squad out of Deamonhunter codex...

Give them 3x mystic, 3x acolyte.. 2x sage 3x Warriors with heavy bolters. (acolyte's wariors and sages are optional)

Set a demolisher beside the squad.

Take a free demolisher shot everytime a unit deep strikes close, before they are able to run and spread out.

Thats pretty much what I was saying in my post. To make it even better, give the Inquisitor Sanctuary Psychic power then huddle them up against the rear of the Demolisher. This will prevent them from assault the rear of the Demolisher and make it impossible for their Troops and FA to damage it and make it difficult for the others save the real heavy hitters. Just to really increase your chances, back two Demolishers up in an L shape and put the =I= at the rear of each. That way if they do get one, you got a back up.

SPYDER68
13-03-2009, 17:41
Thats pretty much what I was saying in my post. To make it even better, give the Inquisitor Sanctuary Psychic power then huddle them up against the rear of the Demolisher. This will prevent them from assault the rear of the Demolisher and make it impossible for their Troops and FA to damage it and make it difficult for the others save the real heavy hitters. Just to really increase your chances, back two Demolishers up in an L shape and put the =I= at the rear of each. That way if they do get one, you got a back up.

Covering the rear does nothing vs assualts...

In close combat you ALWAYS hit rear armor now even if assaulting the front of the tank.

The only time you hit front armor in melee is a Death or glory attack.

the1stpip
13-03-2009, 17:42
Guard are not nearly as bad off as some people would have you think.

Angelus Mortis
13-03-2009, 18:10
Covering the rear does nothing vs assualts...

In close combat you ALWAYS hit rear armor now even if assaulting the front of the tank.

The only time you hit front armor in melee is a Death or glory attack.

Ahh yeah, forgot about that crap.

Captain Micha
13-03-2009, 18:17
Guard are not nearly as bad off as some people would have you think.

riiiight.

Guard are worse than Necrons and Tau right now. Though this appears to be soon remedied. Tremble world. I'm going to have a 5e army list finally. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

SPYDER68
13-03-2009, 18:27
riiiight.

Guard are worse than Necrons and Tau right now. Though this appears to be soon remedied. Tremble world. I'm going to have a 5e army list finally. :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Not really, with IG in last 4 tourneys ive got 1st and top 5 in other 3.

They can be very effective still right now.

Captain Micha
13-03-2009, 18:39
Not really, with IG in last 4 tourneys ive got 1st and top 5 in other 3.

They can be very effective still right now.

Running Drop Troop Plasma and getting lucky then?

Best I did with my guard was a Victoriously Slaughtered on the table top.

Dawn Of War Guard much better.

SPYDER68
13-03-2009, 19:33
Running Drop Troop Plasma and getting lucky then?

Best I did with my guard was a Victoriously Slaughtered on the table top.

Dawn Of War Guard much better.

Actually nope, i tried drop troops and did nothing but scatter.

I run a stormtrooper base with Tank support.

souljaking09
13-03-2009, 20:44
one thing i havent seen people talk about is the heavy flamers in the command squad. they are going to be usable by infantry again.