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View Full Version : Could any SM REALLY be as BadA$$ as Calgar?



boogaloo
13-03-2009, 07:15
So i have a radical theory, i'm sure somebody has mentioned it before, but i tried the search function and it brought up some old threads that i don't think REALLY focussed on this.

As an eldar player i have a little bit of a prblem with a chapter master waltzing up and **** slapping an avatar to death. Now i'm sure everyone agrees that it would be easier to swallow if there was a little more of a fight, i could even handle a grot doing it if there was a bit more to it, but my question is could any regular space marine be that strong or is there a little bit more to it.

In order for me to accept this bit of fluff i have to come to the conclusion that calgar is actually omegon in disguise.

Fulgrim smacked an avatar down and sangy broke a thirster on his knee. Now before i get all chewed up lets review the evidence.

Calgar uses weaponry rcovered from a Chaos Champion. You'd think that somebody would raise an eybrow to that. Omegon has some experience with the occult and maybe some knowledge of where particulkarly powerful daemon weapons might lay and how to control them.

Omegon is a master of infiltration, unorthodox tactics, surprise, and sneakiness in general. Which explains how he was able to infiltrate the organisation and the fact that he's a primarch explains how he was able to rise through the ranks, theoreticaly with ease

There is that bit about the cabal telling Alpharius Omegon that if the emperor won the galaxy would fall to chaos, so the first part of it was to betray the emperor, and now they have to work against chaos.

The Smurfs have just been too damn good. How could any legion be that freeking awesome unless they're being led by a primarch.

I know this is silly, a bit ountlandish, and i'm aware that i just have to rationalise in order to accept that mary sue could just slap down a solid steal fragment of a war god with a mastery of combat prowess, and a creamy magma filling, but i just had to let it out.

What do you think?

swifty2
13-03-2009, 07:35
He defnitely has his good points, but based on experience he does get completely schooled off Lysander everytime, just as it should be :D

Koryphaus
13-03-2009, 08:01
I think that as Marneus Clagar is quite able to smack an Avatar silly on the TT, there really shouldn't be anywhere near as much bitching about the whole thing.

The point is, Roboute Guilliman recovered those gauntlets from a Slaaneshi champion 10,000 years ago, and obviously figured it was ok to use them - who is going to tell a Primarch otherwise? Therefore his progeny ought to be able to use them as well.

olmsted
13-03-2009, 08:05
logan grimnar and his space wolves are the only space marines who are more bad assed then mary sue and his smurfs

Lazarus15
13-03-2009, 08:17
I agree that no regular Space Marine is going to be beating an Avatar. Fulgrim got a few smacks laid upon him, but still won, all the while being burned. It even alludes to how he is excited at a challenge in combat. That fact that Matt Ward thought it be a good idea that Calgar is somehow equal to that is REDICULOUS, gauntlets or not.

redbaron998
13-03-2009, 08:31
I agree that no regular Space Marine is going to be beating an Avatar. Fulgrim got a few smacks laid upon him, but still won, all the while being burned. It even alludes to how he is excited at a challenge in combat. That fact that Matt Ward thought it be a good idea that Calgar is somehow equal to that is REDICULOUS, gauntlets or not.

Couldnt agree more. Could Fulgrim do it? Sure He is a Primarch and he took a licking doing it, could Calgar really? Alone? not a chance.

Calgar is pretty good dont get me wrong, but it is an Avatar, abuot a 12thish of a GOD. Now if they said Lysander beat up the Avatar I might be ok with that, cause he would do better in CC against it, and is not a smurf.

GeneralDisaster
13-03-2009, 08:42
Yet ANOTHER smurf hate thread.

It's called spam. It should be either in a tin, a fritter, or your e-mail folder.

Grow up, move on. Calgar beat the Avatar. GET OVER IT.

the1stpip
13-03-2009, 09:21
Seconded. Get over the Ultra-hatred.

Arkondak
13-03-2009, 09:27
Did anyone complain about that piece of background fluff that came out around the eye of terror campaign when Eldrad ran Abbadon through with a spear, and only the intervention of the chaos gods saved Abbadon's life? that seemed to be the same basic story as the calgar versus avatar, except abbbadon was at full strength when the lord of the space elves shishkebobed him, whereas the avatar had been swiss cheesed by a couple of lascannons and gang beat repeatedly by at least 5 thunderhammers before he got to calgar at all.

Calgar is over the top. but no worse than any other race's superman character.

a squig
13-03-2009, 09:30
i may be wrong i usally are, the gauntlets came of a champion but werent the gauntlets also alien tech rather than chaos tech. So if they are alien tech who knows what they can do. Granted i feel dirty trying to defend clagar but if thats the case it could change the whole argument. For all we know those gauntless could catch an incomming ork rock. ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-03-2009, 09:31
Except Eldrad is a ten thousand year old Farseer the likes of which the galaxy probably won't see again unless he somehow escapes his current predicament, facing someone on a little higher footing, the Warmaster of Chaos. Not a Chapter Master facing off against the shard of a god of war. You can't compare the two battles in power scale. EDIT: This was at Ardonak.

EDIT 2: And yes, a SM can be more badass than Calgar. You can find him in the Blood Angels Codex, and his title is the Lord of Death.

Arkondak
13-03-2009, 09:44
Except Eldrad is a ten thousand year old Farseer the likes of which the galaxy probably won't see again unless he somehow escapes his current predicament, facing someone on a little higher footing, the Warmaster of Chaos. Not a Chapter Master facing off against the shard of a god of war. You can't compare the two battles in power scale. EDIT: This was at Ardonak.

EDIT 2: And yes, a SM can be more badass than Calgar. You can find him in the Blood Angels Codex, and his title is the Lord of Death.

I would agree with you if eldrad actually used his super duper mental psyker powers of ork misleading and apocylaptic doom, but Abbadon, a 10,00 year old super soldier infused with the power of the darkest gods of darkness, equipped with the greatest armor ever made, and a demon sword of autoslaying, lunged at eldrad, somehow managed to miss, and eldrad just stabbed him. with a spear. *poke* end of fight. :wtf:

I agree with the blood angel vampire guy though. that whole beating the red thirst thing was just bad ass.

And oh yes, eldrad will definately escape and on that day the space marine players will look upon the eldar codex and cry the words "mary sue" in anguish.

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-03-2009, 09:55
I would agree with you if eldrad actually used his super duper mental psyker powers of ork misleading and apocylaptic doom, but Abbadon, a 10,00 year old super soldier infused with the power of the darkest gods of darkness, equipped with the greatest armor ever made, and a demon sword of autoslaying, lunged at eldrad, somehow managed to miss, and eldrad just stabbed him. with a spear. *poke* end of fight. :wtf:

Ah. See, I've never read about the fight, but since it came from an era where WDs and such were *slightly* better I thought the battle would be better. Now you raise circumstances that alter things.

Crap writing in both cases, then. Though I still propose that Eldrad's sorcerous might would have still given him a chance against his superior foe, and that they are on far more equal footing than Khaine's shard and the latest Big Boy Blue, gauntlets or not and God of War rule or not.


I agree with the blood angel vampire guy though. that whole beating the red thirst thing was just bad ass.

Yep.


And oh yes, eldrad will definately escape and on that day the space marine players will look upon the eldar codex and cry the words "mary sue" in anguish.

And the universe will rip itself a new one from the irony.

scolex
13-03-2009, 09:57
Actually make that two Blood Angels who could take Calgar's lunch money. Calgar is among the Chapter masters to tell Dante, "Yes, you are in fact the boss of me.".

Oh and unless we know that all Avatars are created equal, I'd rule out comparing one that could even touch Fulgrim to anything Calgar beat. Fulgrim is a beast in combat, even among the Primarchs. Notably killing Ferrus and Guilliman in single combat. I have my doubts that the generic Avatar on the tabletop measures up to a Primarch in any way, let alone one of the strongest.

Imperialis_Dominatus
13-03-2009, 10:08
Heheh. And the iron grip Lemartes has on his Death Company seems badass to me... shall we make it a holy trinity of Master, Librarian, and Chaplain on a list of those more badass than Calgar? I mean... if it's not Lemartes it's Grimaldus. Guy busted out of temple ruins with the relics of that temple on his back.

Baragash
13-03-2009, 10:32
Did anyone complain about that piece of background fluff that came out around the eye of terror campaign when Eldrad ran Abbadon through with a spear, and only the intervention of the chaos gods saved Abbadon's life?

That happened in a WD battle report for the EoT campaign and then got incorporated into the fluff.

Vote Kantor
13-03-2009, 10:33
Nobody, NOBODY forget the good old space pups, im also very glad that not many have used the table top as a source, ive killed calgar with A SINGLE SQUAD OF GUARDSMEN in COMBAT, and another time i did it with two squads SHOOTING LASGUNS. the tabletop is no reference.

Nero
13-03-2009, 10:37
Personally I can buy Eldrad taking a swipe at Abaddon. This is one of the most powerful champions of the Eldar going up against one of the most powerful champion of the Chaos Space Marines. They're both at least 10,000 years old, they're both armed with ancient and powerful weapons, and they're both considered consumate warriors.

Calgar, on the other hand, is just another Chapter Master. Fulgrim, a Primarch, had trouble taking down an Avatar and arguably would've died himself without his daemon weapon. Calgar however takes the Avatar down with a single uppercut from his powahfists.

That's the difference.

squeekenator
13-03-2009, 10:46
Calgar is one of the most powerful champions of the Space Marines (with mysterious Chaos relics dating back to the time of the Primarchs, so likely the equivalent of Drach'nyen in power) going up against an Avatar, which is clearly inferior to Eldrad as far as awesomeness goes. It's not so hard to believe that he won. Really, stop bitching about Calgar killing an Avatar. There are things so much more ridiculous that no-one ever mentions, because they're all blinded by Calgar hatred. If I recall correctly, a Venerable Dreadnought serving under Sicarius was destroyed by Necrons and exploded, destroying an entire spaceport thingy. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the smallest of spacecraft hundreds of metres long? And yet a Dreadnought can explode (by having its atoms stripped off by gauss weapons, which can't cause an explosion anyway) and take out the whole thing, despite there being no cases of an entire Chapter being wiped by a well-aimed missile sniping a Dreadnought. Now that is ridiculous.

daboarder
13-03-2009, 10:52
yeah i think the worst mistake GW has ever done was giving the space marine fluff to a "fanboy" the guy is an idiot. my "favourite" was the part about the ad mech sanctioning the crusader because papa smurf liked em. i mean cmon.

i miss the old fluff that was less complete. you now like the snippet stories in the 3rd ed rules and codx's that stuff really gave the impression of a dark universe and a decaying empire.

and yes basically any red,;) grey black green yellow etc character is more insteresting that calgar. has like a limp superman style posterboy. so tell me GW how do people like batman more than superman. the answer is almost always batman as he is the one with the better background who findds things challenging but still does em.

/end rant

Lord Solar Plexus
13-03-2009, 10:58
logan grimnar and his space wolves are the only space marines who are more bad assed then mary sue and his smurfs

Precisely my sentiments.

Nero
13-03-2009, 11:04
Calgar is one of the most powerful champions of the Space Marines (with mysterious Chaos relics dating back to the time of the Primarchs, so likely the equivalent of Drach'nyen in power) going up against an Avatar, which is clearly inferior to Eldrad as far as awesomeness goes.

Um, no. We have a clear arbiter of power here - a Primarch was a match for an Avatar. They almost killed one another. Eldrad would get curb-stomped by an Avatar, it isn't 'clearly inferior' to him.


If I recall correctly, a Venerable Dreadnought serving under Sicarius was destroyed by Necrons and exploded, destroying an entire spaceport thingy.

Actually, if I recall that Dreadnought held the Necrons off for some ridiculous amount of time on it's lonesome. Then when it was finally overwhelmed, it overloaded it's plasma reactors and exploded on purpose to make sure the Necrons couldn't take the Spaceport.

As somebody else succintly put it; it's like some kid saying that his soldier is much better than all your guys combined! And when he's finally forced to accept that he's lost, he knocks everybodies toys over SO NOBODY CAN WIN HA!

boogaloo
13-03-2009, 17:51
Ha ha geez, i was just trying to poke fun that Calgar MIGHT actually be a sneaky sneaky primarch in disguise:eek:. Because there is documented fluff where primarchs kill Avatars, and where a primarch would win against an avatar, a regular chapter master would likely be "shiskabobbed". Yes on the table Calgar would mopp up an avatar.... Or would Omegon ;)

P.S. this was not meantt o be more ultra hate, more of a humerous aside. Appoligies if the first post came off that way.

Nero
13-03-2009, 18:11
Oh, the Ultramarines are obviously Alpha Legion. Or is that just what they want you to think? Or is THAT what they want you to think? Or maybe they want you to think that they want you to think that they want you to think that they're Alpha legion..? Oww, my brains...

boogaloo
13-03-2009, 18:18
well not so much that the Ultras are the alpha legion, but that Omegon took charge of the Ultras to lead them in the fight against chaos, based on the encounter with the Cabal. Aplharius Omegons done crazier things

Marshal Sinclair
13-03-2009, 18:21
I would agree with you if eldrad actually used his super duper mental psyker powers of ork misleading and apocylaptic doom, but Abbadon, a 10,00 year old super soldier infused with the power of the darkest gods of darkness, equipped with the greatest armor ever made, and a demon sword of autoslaying, lunged at eldrad, somehow managed to miss, and eldrad just stabbed him. with a spear. *poke* end of fight. :wtf:

So what you're saying is that Eldrad used his unsurpassed powers to scry the future in order to avoid Abbadons attacks, then do the same in order to find just the spot he needed to strike to punch through the terminator armour. Eldrad may have had to view a hundred possible outcomes of the fight before he found a single one that didn't end in his own death. Anybody who has seen the episode of Andromeda where Trance tries thousands of possible futures to find the perfect possible future will know hat I mean.

Max_Killfactor
13-03-2009, 18:22
That happened in a WD battle report for the EoT campaign and then got incorporated into the fluff.

Bingo.

In the battle report Eldrad got the better of (not sure if he actually finished him off) Abbadon... go go fortune! So yeah, Eldrad is pretty badass in his own way.

Cythus
13-03-2009, 18:25
i think its due to the different writers, one writer sees avatars as absolutely brilliant, and so in his book it puts up a good challenge to a primarch. It other writer sees that its only an 'avatar' (as in the dictionary defination of an avatar) so its very good but not brilliant so a chapter master with amazing weapons can kill it. Just like the nightbringer (which comsumers entire solar systems) 's avatar being less powerful than a titan.

Who's right...that not for me to decide

Starchild
13-03-2009, 18:39
The problem is that Khaine is split into many shards. WD 127 explains that Khorne and Slaanesh fought over him in the Warp. When both chaos gods were worn out, Khaine entered the material universe as the Avatar suits.

So an Avatar is only marginally more powerful than a greater daemon (if at all.) That explains why Calgar (or a Primarch) can crump one in a scrap. If all the Avatars of Khaine were recombined into one, he could easily best any Primarch or greater daemon. Regardless, when an Eldar army faces Calgar, just follow the Eldar way: "If you can't beat 'em, dance around 'em and shoot 'em 'til they die."

It does seem somewhat alarming that Calgar is using a modified daemon/chaos weapon. I'm sure the Inquisition keeps a close eye on him. That's like Erebus of the Word Bearers using the Anathame, in my opinion. :(

Inquisitor_Tolheim
13-03-2009, 18:44
Oh and unless we know that all Avatars are created equal, I'd rule out comparing one that could even touch Fulgrim to anything Calgar beat. Fulgrim is a beast in combat, even among the Primarchs. Notably killing Ferrus and Guilliman in single combat. I have my doubts that the generic Avatar on the tabletop measures up to a Primarch in any way, let alone one of the strongest.

I'd say this is dead on. The quality of the avatar is directly proportional to the psychic strength of the "young king" sacrificed and the ritual strength built up by the farseers.

I's not like Khaine is being summoned directly onto the battlefield, but rather a being is created that channels some of his power. How much power it channels depends on how it was created.

Scy
13-03-2009, 21:48
Don't think Marneus could hold a candle to Bjorn tbh.

Laser guided fanatic
13-03-2009, 21:51
Tellion and his beard of death is the most badass.

Idaan
13-03-2009, 22:19
FFS people go read that Eldrad vs Abaddon battle before you start bitching about it.

Abaddon slew all of Eldrad's Warlock bodyguard and had the Farseer nailed to the ground, just about to finish him off. Eldrad used his farsight and saw the only outcome that would stop the Black Crusade from happening. He placed the Staff of Ulthamar vertically, with its tip just under Abaddon's chin. Then Drach'nyen, Abaddon's daemon sword sensed Eldrad's blood and lunged towards him, pulling Abaddon with it and impaling him on Eldrad's staff. So if Eldrad was to kill Abaddon he would have died himself, too.
It actually makes sense and isn't a one-sided muscle-flexing fest like some other stories in a codex I won't mention.


So an Avatar is only marginally more powerful than a greater daemon (if at all.) That explains why Calgar (or a Primarch) can crump one in a scrap. If all the Avatars of Khaine were recombined into one, he could easily best any Primarch or greater daemon. Regardless, when an Eldar army faces Calgar, just follow the Eldar way: "If you can't beat 'em, dance around 'em and shoot 'em 'til they die.The problem is that Fulgrim killing an Avatar is depicted as a feat, and the whole point of the fight, repeated during that scene is that they are both godlike beings of equal power. And now a couple of months later Calgar defeats one without breaking a sweat. At the time of the next Marine codex it'll be expected of any Veteran Sergeant to have slain at least three Avatars. It's not only diminishing for the Eldar, but for the Primarchs too: what's the point of them being demigods made flesh if any Chapter Master can do what they do with less effort?

itcamefromthedeep
13-03-2009, 22:42
What makes you think 40k is like Dragon Ball Z?

An SAS officer can get killed by a 16 year old hoologan, for instance if the punk kid fires first.

Combat is not necessarily decided by who is the more awesome, but in large part by who gets lucky.

Similarly, a guardsman in 40k can beat Plague Marine. It's just not likely.

The concession of 40k as a game led to some weird fluff results regarding fluff/gameplay comparisons. One of those is that Space Marines are a lot worse then they are in the fluff. Another is that Eldar Avatars are also gimped in comparison to how they're described. As far as gameplay, Calgar can beat an Avatar. Let it go.

Laser guided fanatic
13-03-2009, 22:44
What makes you think 40k is like Dragon Ball Z?

An SAS officer can get killed by a 16 year old hoologan, for instance if the punk kid fires first.

Combat is not necessarily decided by who is the more awesome, but in large part by who gets lucky.

Similarly, a guardsman in 40k can beat Plague Marine. It's just not likely.

The concession of 40k as a game led to some weird fluff results regarding fluff/gameplay comparisons. One of those is that Space Marines are a lot worse then they are in the fluff. Another is that Eldar Avatars are also gimped in comparison to how they're described. As far as gameplay, Calgar can beat an Avatar. Let it go.

yeh people getting worked up over fiction is just sad.

hawo0313
13-03-2009, 23:10
I am also a Calgar hater but I'm not going to post on that I'm just going to say I think mephiston is more badass than calgar and take my leave.

also being a main character calgar has plot armour

Karnstein
13-03-2009, 23:16
Fiction? FICTION? You speak heretic words my friend, that's the future...it is not fiction! :p

all joking apart, you hit the nail on his head. 40k is just a game with a inconsistent fluff, written by some folks with a serious communication problem and some drunken literary editors. :D And thats the main branch of the company, don't start talking about BL books.

GW-Fluff, esp. codex fluff sometimes reminds me of those german shadowrun& classic battletech novels, which hit the market and replaced those classical writers like Stacepole and Charette after FASA hit the dust. Guess fanpro couldn't pay Stackpole enough... They just read like a product of someone, who tried to make a novel out the events of his last RPG-session.

I mean writing a WD battle rep, featuring a grot knocking out a wounded commissar yarrick with a lucky kick in the old mans balls, is one thing. Odd things like that sometimes happens in a game. But making that event canon? go figure... Friend of mine lost a dual-claw terminator to a grot back in ed2, would I write something like that into the fluff pages of a new ork dex? Like "snoggy, the lucky grot"? Rather not!

Grimbad
13-03-2009, 23:38
Anybody who has seen the episode of Andromeda where Trance tries thousands of possible futures to find the perfect possible future will know hat I mean.

I've never seen Andromeda, but that sounds like a summary of Groundhog Day. Maybe a homage episode, some shows do those sometimes.

Anyways, the Alpha Legion/Ultramarines thing makes a decent amount of sense. There was a post on this forum a while back about 'taking an Orwellian view of 40k' that suggested that pretty much everything about the Ultramarines was a lie, and backed it up with published background in a way that made perfect sense (with some doubleplusgood doublethink).

Karnstein
13-03-2009, 23:48
Anyways, the Alpha Legion/Ultramarines thing makes a decent amount of sense. There was a post on this forum a while back about 'taking an Orwellian view of 40k' that suggested that pretty much everything about the Ultramarines was a lie, and backed it up with published background in a way that made perfect sense (with some doubleplusgood doublethink).

Hm, guess like a topic worth reading. :p I mean the scenario that the AL won the battle against UM and faked the whole Legion sounds really orwellian. Looks like a win:win scenario playing both sides. After the horus lost and the cabals vision failed, alpharius/omegon returned to the loyalist side, replacing the UM legion and leaving some AL warriors behind, who keep up the scheme that the AL is still an enemy of the imperium. I like that thought. :D

General Squeek Squeek
13-03-2009, 23:57
Thought I'd way in on this. :)

The Space marine book is nothing more then glorified propaganda. Its view is entirely skewed that way. When I read the part about the Avatar vs Calgar I saw two different ways.

1. the propaganda view of Calgar heroically taking on a Avatar by himself with both being at full strength and Calgar winning. or....

2. The fact that the avatar was grievously wounded by multiple lascannon hits and terminator Thunder hammer blows to the point that Calgar didn't need to do much more then push it over. (personally what I see as happening).

Granted the fluff says that everything else just bounced of the Avatar, but That sounds like nothing more then an excuse to bump up the badassness of Calgar IMHO. Even if the Avatar acted like everything wasn't effecting it all of the previous hits were cumulative.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2009, 00:07
The Space Marine book IS imperial propaganda. Nothing more.

In 1vs1 combat, Calgar would stand no chance to beat the Avatar of Khaine.

Most probably, Calgar was not even in combat with the Avatar, and imperial propaganda just wanted to show how badass are Space Marines.

[And sad truth, veteran brother marcus from assault terminator squad killed greviously wounded avatar, sacraficing himself in process]

I dont trust a word from this book. It's just another one that try to brainwash imperial citzens. With success it seems.

LiMunPai
14-03-2009, 00:15
Calgar has 2 Power Fists! 2! He doesn't open up cans of coke, he just eats them whole. He doesn't open doors, he just breaks through walls.

The Avatar has similar wall walking through/can eating qualities.

In the rules they are very similar as well. Calgar's God of War ability is similar to the Avatar's fearless bubble. Both have great, though minimal, shooting abilities. In close combat, I think the Avatar can just take Calgar in the average fight, since they both get comparable amounts of wounds on the other and both have a 4+ invulnerable as well as the same amount of wounds. The Avatar has I6, however, so swings first.

The evidence shows that:

CALGAR'S GLOVES ARE MADE OUT OF SHARDS OF THE AVATAR.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2009, 00:25
Power Fists are not so amazing. Tbh they have only S6 while power axes were S5. Power Fist should have fixed S value anyway.

scolex
14-03-2009, 00:27
The problem is that Fulgrim killing an Avatar is depicted as a feat, and the whole point of the fight, repeated during that scene is that they are both godlike beings of equal power. And now a couple of months later Calgar defeats one without breaking a sweat. At the time of the next Marine codex it'll be expected of any Veteran Sergeant to have slain at least three Avatars. It's not only diminishing for the Eldar, but for the Primarchs too: what's the point of them being demigods made flesh if any Chapter Master can do what they do with less effort?

This comparison still requires that every Avatar is of exact and identical power. Factors such as the power of the individual "young king", and whether Khaine's essence was split evenly between the craftworlds could affect that. For all we know Calgar's Avatar was relatively weak, and Fulgrim's was one of the strongest ever. For one, the Eldar are descending in power correct? An Avatar of 11 thousand years ago probably had alot more to work with. Not to mention the Lascannon and Thunder Hammer pummeling the Avatar took before reaching Calgar.

Also there is precedent for a regular Chapter Master besting a Primarch. Luther, the second in command of the DA beat down the Lion. And he was no weakling having bested Russ in a duel. Russ not being weak himself considering that spanking he put on Magnus.

There are many ways this whole thing makes sense, without weakening or lessening anything. Not a fan of the smurfs myself at all, but seriously... enough smurf hate.

Poseidal
14-03-2009, 00:39
Following a skirmish against Hive-fleet 'Perseus' in 976, Calgar lost all four limbs as well as large areas of body tissue and his left eye. Now fitted with bionic replacements, he is more machine than man.

LonelyPath
14-03-2009, 01:38
I've taken Calgar out in close combat with a termagent, he's not that tough, lol. However, that was years ago in 2nd edition when he was a GOD in close combat and he'd already taken out 2 broods of my genestealers, so go figure, lol.

I've also taken him down with a GK grand master and a regular dark angels company master. He's not unbeatable, but he puts up a good fight.

Imperialis_Dominatus
14-03-2009, 02:38
FFS people go read that Eldrad vs Abaddon battle before you start bitching about it.

Abaddon slew all of Eldrad's Warlock bodyguard and had the Farseer nailed to the ground, just about to finish him off. Eldrad used his farsight and saw the only outcome that would stop the Black Crusade from happening. He placed the Staff of Ulthamar vertically, with its tip just under Abaddon's chin. Then Drach'nyen, Abaddon's daemon sword sensed Eldrad's blood and lunged towards him, pulling Abaddon with it and impaling him on Eldrad's staff. So if Eldrad was to kill Abaddon he would have died himself, too.
It actually makes sense and isn't a one-sided muscle-flexing fest like some other stories in a codex I won't mention.

There we go, the battle sounds much cooler now.


I've taken Calgar out in close combat with a termagent, he's not that tough, lol. However, that was years ago in 2nd edition when he was a GOD in close combat and he'd already taken out 2 broods of my genestealers, so go figure, lol.

I've also taken him down with a GK grand master and a regular dark angels company master. He's not unbeatable, but he puts up a good fight.

I prefer to hit him (and his Honor Guard) in the face with Vindicator shells.

techman
14-03-2009, 04:19
I'm gonna go with the post where Calgar fought the avatar after grievous wounds done to the avatar (THOUGH the idea of the avatar being summoned weakened is easily plausible). It says so in the codex that calgar is a genius tactician and fighter, the chance of him challenging the avatar without any backup is very unlikely, but could happen if needed.

Oh where does it say that his gloves are some chaos/alien tech? I believe it but have never heard it and would like to read it up.

Oh I totally picture calgar opening pop cans with those powerfists (makes me think of hellboy when he opens the red bull :D)

Warforger
14-03-2009, 04:26
It was from the 4th ed codex.

techman
14-03-2009, 04:31
It was from the 4th ed codex.

Thanks, I'll look into that...dang fluff nut I am :D

Arkondak
14-03-2009, 06:29
I'll concede defeat on the eldrad vs abbabon line, The slaying of the bodyguard and abbadon beating eldrad within an inch of his life does mitigate circumstances somewhat. although this does make the eldrad/abbadon fight and the calgar/avatar fight almost completely parallel.

Ironically, if eldrad had just melted abbadon's brain with mind war, i would have had no problem at all. of course then a number of chaos marine players would be unhappy about it...


But back to the main point of this thread, I can think of at least one more marine more bad ass than Calgar. Captain Cortez of the crimson fists is bad ass incarnate. his background story in the 3rd edition marine codex was awesome without going too far over the top, and his rules on the table top were powerful, while still remaining simple and unabusive.

Grand Master Raziel
14-03-2009, 06:41
Re: Eldrad running through Abaddon: I agree that Eldry should be all that in his sphere, but his sphere is psychic powers, not raw combat ability. No matter how you dice it, that little ponce getting in an easy win on Abaddon is just stupid, and I don't even like Abaddon.

Re: Marneus Calgar beating an Avatar: Marneus is a named hero, the Avatar, while a piece of the Eldar war god, is a teeny tiny piece, and the god in question got himself perished ten thousand years ago. Avatars might have been more powerful when Fulgrim was running around, Khaine having been somewhat more recently perished. Furthermore, Calgar could have been guided by the hand of the Emperor himself. Nuff said.

Iceheart2112
14-03-2009, 07:14
I know that its been mentioned a couple of times in the thread, but my first point to make is that the Avatar was smacked around by quite a few thunder hammers and lascannons before getting to Calgar.

My second point, which apparently hasn't been said yet, is that the Avatar almost killed Calgar first. The first swing barely missed (or his Iron Halo kicked in...). The second and third wounded him badly. The fourth one was going to kill him, but got stopped by the Gauntlets in time for Calgar to swing back (silly Initiative 1 power fists...).

As fanboy-ish as it may be, I can allow for the fact that a highly experienced, extraordinarily equipped, powerful warrior took a momentary advantage of a wounded enemy in time to save his own life.

Edit: And as far as the Blood Angels characters go, let me see them take a Railgun round to the face and go, "Yup. Thats one wound. No no, thats not an Instant Death wound. Oh, and I don't even have Eternal Warrior for you to blame."

Darth Ghandi
14-03-2009, 13:01
This thread reminded me of a lively discussion i had with one of my friends back in kindergarten, If i recall correctly it went something like this:

"My Daddy is better then YOUR Daddy!"

"NO! My daddy will bring a gun and shoot your daddy!"

"WAAAAHHHH! My daddy will bring his grenade and blow you daddy up!"

And so the discussion continued.
Anyone see the resemblance?

RCgothic
14-03-2009, 13:20
Seems everyone has forgotten that while Calgar needed a set of finely crafted power fists to kill his Avatar, Fulgrim killed his Avatar with his bare hands.

Just because the two both beat Avatars does not make them equal. Fulgrim >> Calgar.

Secondly, Avatars have variable power levels. Given the muppetry on display from the eldar in general on that battle, it can't have been a very powerful Avatar that Calgar faced.

Thirdly, Avatars can get their asses handed to them by anything S4 and lucky on tabletop, so getting killed by someone S8 and Heroic shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

That all said, it was an extraordinarily poorly written piece of fluff.

boogaloo
14-03-2009, 15:17
I wasn't in the game when Eldrad Smacked down Abadon, but i have two words to explain, Fortune, and Doom. ;) If it was a poorly written pice of fluff as well... that would suck.

once again i'm sorry to have stirred all the hate up again.

Has anyone even comented on the light natured intent that Calgar might be Omegon in disguise?

Radium
14-03-2009, 16:17
It's hard for me agree with the Omegon/Calgar thing, as I choose to ignore everything BL spits out as canon. Fun stuff to read, but in no way canon IMO.

I like the theory though, it would solve a lot of 'issues' with the ultras.

*EDIT* Oh, and Grand Master Raziel, Khaine never died. Slaanesh was too weak to finish him off, so instead Khaine was split into the avatars.

Giganthrax
14-03-2009, 16:46
At first when I saw this thread I was like "haha, eldar fanboys flaming calgar for the 1000th time, will they ever get over it".

But it got me thinking. Why, of all the ridiculous fluff out there (eldrad owning abaddon in melee, yriel one-shotting the leader-beast of hive fleet kraken, that one venerable dreadnought holding off a mass of necrons and then blowing them and itself up, Huron making a mockery of Marines Errant, etc.), is it this one story about Calgar bitchslapping an avatar, that gets the Eldar fanboys so worked up?

What makes this single ridiculous story in a sea of similar stories so special? Is it because hating ultramarines is thing all kool kidz do, and hence hating their leader and anything he does is mandatory? Would the daemon/tyranid players get so worked up if Calgar had beaten a Bloodthirster/Tyrant? Why does it have such a great impact on the minds of Eldar players? Why do they act like it's so personal, and not just a piece of inconsequential fluff? (I'm saying Eldar players because as far as I can see on warseer, it's mostly Eldar players throwing Calgar hate)

I think this is a worthy discussion on psychology here. It's like why there was such a great fuss over Justin Timberlake exposing Janet Jackson's breast. The entire event makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, and is obviously just scandal bait... and yet everyone and their grandmother went crazy over it.

Cane
14-03-2009, 16:52
http://www.audiemurphy.com/
Calgar is like the superhuman version of Audie Murphy. He earned his Medal of Honor by personally killing or wounding about 50 Nazis as he provided covering fire for his unit to retreat into the woods - and thats just one of many heroic acts he's accomplished.

Just like how normal men survived and executed incredible feats of bravery against incredible odds in WW2, Space Marines possess this same innate human quality only its been supersized.

scolex
14-03-2009, 17:16
Edit: And as far as the Blood Angels characters go, let me see them take a Railgun round to the face and go, "Yup. Thats one wound. No no, thats not an Instant Death wound. Oh, and I don't even have Eternal Warrior for you to blame."

That would matter if Calgar didn't say, "Dante is better than me at everything.". Read up on Armageddon silly.

Also the recent trends towards obscene power on the tabletop for special characters have skipped the BA. Seeing as they got all of a pdf in the last decade.

Darklord Yorke
14-03-2009, 17:28
I cant wait to read a battle report where Calgar gets turned into a chaos spawn after a Sorcerer has used the gift of chaos power - Or even better - He could get turned into a squig by Old Zogwart!! Now that would be funny! :)

Kahadras
14-03-2009, 18:16
This thread is pretty pointless IMHO. Every race has had points at which writers have lost the plot slightly. Lets just remember that this story appears in the SM codex; a book written with the express purpose of selling Marines as an army to play.

Reading the damn story it doesn't seem like Calgar exactly kicked the Avatars ass. I mean it first took on the first company while weathering a large amount of heavy weapon fire then got attacked by Calgar from behind. Despite this it still turned round and nearly beat him to death. It seems like the only reason Calgar didn't die was the fact that he had the Gauntlets on.

Kahadras

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
14-03-2009, 19:36
At first when I saw this thread I was like "haha, eldar fanboys flaming calgar for the 1000th time, will they ever get over it".

But it got me thinking. Why, of all the ridiculous fluff out there (eldrad owning abaddon in melee, yriel one-shotting the leader-beast of hive fleet kraken, that one venerable dreadnought holding off a mass of necrons and then blowing them and itself up, Huron making a mockery of Marines Errant, etc.), is it this one story about Calgar bitchslapping an avatar, that gets the Eldar fanboys so worked up?

What makes this single ridiculous story in a sea of similar stories so special? Is it because hating ultramarines is thing all kool kidz do, and hence hating their leader and anything he does is mandatory? Would the daemon/tyranid players get so worked up if Calgar had beaten a Bloodthirster/Tyrant? Why does it have such a great impact on the minds of Eldar players? Why do they act like it's so personal, and not just a piece of inconsequential fluff? (I'm saying Eldar players because as far as I can see on warseer, it's mostly Eldar players throwing Calgar hate)

I think this is a worthy discussion on psychology here. It's like why there was such a great fuss over Justin Timberlake exposing Janet Jackson's breast. The entire event makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, and is obviously just scandal bait... and yet everyone and their grandmother went crazy over it.

Funny that Non-Eldars players consider this story ridiculous.

Calling them ultramarine haters does not help your case. It's just immature.

There is more cases where author failed to spot proportions.

Darklord Yorke
14-03-2009, 20:18
Funny that Non-Eldars players consider this story ridiculous.

Calling them ultramarine haters does not help your case. It's just immature.

There is more cases where author failed to spot proportions.


I agree! Im a Black Templars player (as you can see from the picture!), and I still think that Calgar is an over-grown blueberry!!

All of the Ultra Smurfs are!

Thanks to them, the space marines are slowly being extinct, now that they cant defend themselves from any of the chaos legions, which all out number them by thousands!

Screw chapters! If SM's were allowed to keep to their legions, they could still be out there taking over the universe in the emperors name!

Darklord Yorke
14-03-2009, 20:40
Except Eldrad is a ten thousand year old Farseer the likes of which the galaxy probably won't see again unless he somehow escapes his current predicament, facing someone on a little higher footing, the Warmaster of Chaos. Not a Chapter Master facing off against the shard of a god of war. You can't compare the two battles in power scale. EDIT: This was at Ardonak.

EDIT 2: And yes, a SM can be more badass than Calgar. You can find him in the Blood Angels Codex, and his title is the Lord of Death.


Yep...
Back in the 90's, my brother-in-law played a game with mephiston against Marneus Calgar in close combat, and guess who won...

Yes! The one and only Mephiston!

Marshal Sinclair
14-03-2009, 21:05
At first when I saw this thread I was like "haha, eldar fanboys flaming calgar for the 1000th time, will they ever get over it".

But it got me thinking. Why, of all the ridiculous fluff out there (eldrad owning abaddon in melee, yriel one-shotting the leader-beast of hive fleet kraken, that one venerable dreadnought holding off a mass of necrons and then blowing them and itself up, Huron making a mockery of Marines Errant, etc.), is it this one story about Calgar bitchslapping an avatar, that gets the Eldar fanboys so worked up?

What makes this single ridiculous story in a sea of similar stories so special? Is it because hating ultramarines is thing all kool kidz do, and hence hating their leader and anything he does is mandatory? Would the daemon/tyranid players get so worked up if Calgar had beaten a Bloodthirster/Tyrant? Why does it have such a great impact on the minds of Eldar players? Why do they act like it's so personal, and not just a piece of inconsequential fluff? (I'm saying Eldar players because as far as I can see on warseer, it's mostly Eldar players throwing Calgar hate)

I think this is a worthy discussion on psychology here. It's like why there was such a great fuss over Justin Timberlake exposing Janet Jackson's breast. The entire event makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, and is obviously just scandal bait... and yet everyone and their grandmother went crazy over it.

Well I have an Eldar army (no Avatar or Eldar though), and I have an Ultramarines army (with Calgar), and I find the story highly rediculous. God of War. Bloke in a tin suit.

Giganthrax
14-03-2009, 21:22
Funny that Non-Eldars players consider this story ridiculous.

Calling them ultramarine haters does not help your case. It's just immature.

There is more cases where author failed to spot proportions.
Actually, I'm a non eldar player and I think the story is ridiculous. It's beyond the point really.

The real question is; why do so many people get worked up over calgar beating an avatar? Whenever someone mentions calgar, you get a whole bunch of posts discussing that calgar vs avatar duel. It's becoming a 40k version of Strugeon's Law.

It just surprises me that one single story - and a crappy story to boot- can produce such a huge amount of posts about it. Hence I have to wonder, why do people get so worked up about it? :)

Karnstein
14-03-2009, 23:22
a) because it is the internet and there wasn't enough p0rn in the topic
b) maybe we all are just bored...
c) we are broken after buying tons of new GW miniatures (add any army, which considered to be cheese or becoming cheese in the near future), so we can't afford good sci-fi novels and read the bad codex-fluff again. :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2009, 02:40
That would matter if Calgar didn't say, "Dante is better than me at everything.". Read up on Armageddon silly.

Also the recent trends towards obscene power on the tabletop for special characters have skipped the BA. Seeing as they got all of a pdf in the last decade.

Plus, rules=/=fluff. And in fluff...


Funny that Non-Eldars players consider this story ridiculous.

Like me.


The real question is; why do so many people get worked up over calgar beating an avatar?

Because while there are other egregiously out-of-balance stories out there, I find this one to be a) one of the more poorly written stories from GW (it's at the level of Goto), b) one of the most ridiculous, and c) the steaming crown on a pile of utter dogshit that was shoveled into my face with the new Codex's fluff. It's the straw that broke the camel's back, it's salt in the wound, it's insult to injury.

Iceheart2112
15-03-2009, 06:25
That would matter if Calgar didn't say, "Dante is better than me at everything.". Read up on Armageddon silly.


I'm not talking about Calgar in that quote. I'm talking about Cassius. The only T6 marine out there. I'll take Cassius over Calgar any day of the week.

Imperialis_Dominatus
15-03-2009, 22:05
Another thing that bugs me, thanks for mentioning it. I hadn't had a blood pressure spike today. Ahem...

T6 on a non-Nurglish non-MC? What the frak?

itcamefromthedeep
15-03-2009, 22:14
T6 on a non-Nurglish non-MC? What the frak?Wraihtguard have had that for a while, now.

Is there any particular reason you haven't called shenanigans on them?

Corrode
15-03-2009, 23:04
Isn't the T6 fluff-justified by 'the guy was hard as nails anyway, and now he's basically a robot'?

Marneus Calgar
16-03-2009, 01:49
Another thing that bugs me, thanks for mentioning it. I hadn't had a blood pressure spike today. Ahem...

T6 on a non-Nurglish non-MC? What the frak?

Meh, it is just as bad as Mephiston being toughness 5 because a building fell on him. I'm pretty sure that Space Marine terminator which got stepped on by a (I believe Warlord) titan and survived must be at least toughness 7, right?

I think that all Space Marine (and Eldrad), should be just as tough as they normally are compared to their army.

Do I find Marneus Calgar beating the Avatar ridiculous? Yes I do find it ridiculous. Do I find the many of stories in 40k ridiculous; yes, I find these stories ridiculous as well.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2009, 01:55
Is there any particular reason you haven't called shenanigans on them?

Animated suits of wraithbone. Ahem.


Meh, it is just as bad as Mephiston being toughness 5 because a building fell on him.

Gotta offset his lack of an invulnerable :rolleyes: somehow. Besides, T5 is not as bad as T6. Hence... you know... the difference between T6 and T5. Which is one. Which is the gap between a Space Marine on a bike and a Daemon Prince.

Havock
16-03-2009, 02:36
If I recall correctly, a Venerable Dreadnought serving under Sicarius was destroyed by Necrons and exploded, destroying an entire spaceport thingy. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the smallest of spacecraft hundreds of metres long? And yet a Dreadnought can explode (by having its atoms stripped off by gauss weapons, which can't cause an explosion anyway) and take out the whole thing, despite there being no cases of an entire Chapter being wiped by a well-aimed missile sniping a Dreadnought. Now that is ridiculous.

What was not included in that story was that the dreadnought was parked next to a gazillion litres of promethium, with at least two spacecraft having their fuel lines attached :p



Bingo.

In the battle report Eldrad got the better of (not sure if he actually finished him off) Abbadon... go go fortune! So yeah, Eldrad is pretty badass in his own way.

He is also a collossal dick. Probably having positioned and plotted the fight so that at a crucial moment, an accompanying female elder would be undone of upper torso armour by a glancing shot, disctracting Abby -who has been sealed in his chaos-infused suit for quite some time by then- with xeno-boobies. Subsequently shishkebabbing him.

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2009, 02:57
And Kharn would trip over a Black Legionnaire who fell on his knees like all "WHERE ARE MY GODS NOW!?!?!?" at Failbaddon's stabby-rip-stab-stabbing and Kharn's Commissar hat would fly through the air till it landed on Eldrad's head.

Havock
16-03-2009, 03:09
...And not all was as planned for Tzeentch, who missed his blue monday lunch.

Also: Metal Boxes.

Iceheart2112
16-03-2009, 03:28
Isn't the T6 fluff-justified by 'the guy was hard as nails anyway, and now he's basically a robot'?

Thats the way I see it. He has, what, a left toe and right eye left that isn't rebuilt?

Imperialis_Dominatus
16-03-2009, 03:28
SINDRIIIIII!

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!

METAL BAWKSES!

Eliphas: *facepalm*

EDIT: And this game's full-on robots are... T5. Meh.