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View Full Version : Help to Beat the Cheese 3.5k



Whitesox
13-03-2009, 21:36
Ok me and my mate have come up with a way to play the game for pure enjoyment purposes, we take it in turns to make a cheesey as hell list, let the other see it and that person has to try to beat it.

My last game I was the cheese player and I won with a list comprising

Flamers of Tzeench
Flesh Hounds of Khorne
Plaguebearers & Herald
Thirster
Kairos
and the rest made up of horrors

This week Im having to make a list to beat the following
Ill not list the magic items but what the characters are capable of

Dwarf Lord in Hammerers
Shield Bearers
Great Weapon
And runes which take his WS to 8, STR to 7, Armour Save to 1+ rerollable & 4+ ward save
301pts

Thorek Ironbrow
505pts

Thane Battle Standard in Hammerers
Runic Standard with +2 to dispel, 5+ wardsave to model, +1 additional combat res
245pts

Runesmith in Thunderers
Rune which steals an enemies power dice and adds it to his dispel dice
Dispel scroll
149pts

Master Engineer in Grudegebearer
Handgun
Greatweapon
3+ armour save, 1 re-roll per game and immune to fire
109pts

10 Thunderers
Musician & Shields
155pts

10 Thunderers
Musician & Shields
155pts

10 Quarrellers
Musician, Shields & Great Weapons
145pts

10 Quarrellers
Musician, Shields & Great Weapons
145pts

28 Hammerers
FC
Shields
Rune of 5+ Ward save vs shooting
444pts

16 Slayers
176pts

16 Slayers
176pts

Cannon
Engineer with handgun
Rune of re-roll artillary dice, rune of flamming attacks
150pts

Grudge Thrower
Engineer with Handgun
Rune of re-roll scatter dice, rune of +1 strength, rune of re-roll misfire result
(note Master engineer re-rolls the artillary dice)
175pts

Gyro Copter
140pts

Organ gun
120pts

Organ gun
120pts

ok im a bit stumped with making a counter list for this....

its likely the slayers will guard the flanks with the deathstar hammerers in the middle with the quarrellers on the hills (we have a fair few hills and little other cover e.g 2 hills for every wood) I'll struggle to get magic through with his 6 dispel dice and bonus' for dispelling

I've got a choice out of the following armies... which do you reckon would give me the best chance for success

Vampire Counts
Orcs & Goblins
Daemons of Chaos
Dark Elves

tom1354788
13-03-2009, 23:12
you should have a big advantage, just by knowing what hes going to take!

It seems to me that he has had a fair amout of points spent in magic defence, i personally would be tempted to run no magic at all, so he wastes them. Which probably rules out Vampires.

your deamons may actually be a good bet, although this is super cheesy as well, why not go dual bloodthirsters?

as its a dwarf list and naturally very defensive, i would be tempted to try and make him come to you by setting up as far back as possible, and go for a narrow victory. ie only picking off targeted units and ignoring the bulk of his hard units. you could just let your blood thiersters get on with it by doing that, obviously lots of furies to take out the firepower.

Spirit
13-03-2009, 23:20
Take something with the power to kill 16 slayers in 2 rounds of combat.

Your turn, charge, his turn, kill them (so you dont get shot), your turn, continue.

Whitesox
13-03-2009, 23:45
I may try a dual bloodthirster list....

but i wouldnt want to use daemons two games in a row

Daleran
14-03-2009, 00:03
I kinda wish you had the option to take brets....I'd love to see a 3500 point RAF list against that :)

LKHERO
14-03-2009, 00:09
You want a RoFurance on the Lord.

swarmofseals
14-03-2009, 02:30
Given the amount that your opponent has spent on anti-magic, I'm tempted like previous posters to suggest to just skip magic altogether. That said, given your army choices and your reluctance to play demons twice in a row this might not be a viable approach.

O+G vs a Thorek gunline just seems like a bad idea.

Dark Elves seem like they might have trouble with an army this shooty, but I could be wrong.

That leaves VC, who need magic.

Of course, with 3500 points to play with, it shouldn't be too hard to just flat overpower his 6 dispel dice. Behold:

Lords:

Count Mannfred: 475 points
Vampire Lord w/ Master of the Black Arts + Dark Acolyte: 335 points

Heroes:

4x Vampire w/ Master of the Black Arts: 600 points

Throw in the black periapt on someone and you've spent 1425 points and have a whopping 27 (!!!) power dice to show for it. Of course, you'll likely want to spend a few hundred more points tooling out your characters with additional magic equipment, mounts, etc... but that should leave you plenty of room for the rest of your army.

Even if you just sit back and spam Invocation of Nehek, assuming he succeeds on all six of his dispells you'll raise an average of close to 50 zombies a turn. Add corpse cart with unholy lodestone for even more fun.

I'd love to see you do something silly like play for a draw by dropping a 400 model zombie unit on the board led by one of the vampires kitted out with either the Drakenhoff banner or the Flag of Blood Keep. That should be wide enough to screen whatever else you are bringing. Just march forward with your vampires behind, spamming invocation to replace the losses you'll take from shooting. He'll never kill that unit. I'd love to see the look on his face. Of course, I somehow doubt you own 400 zombies ;)

His quarrelers will kill a bit over 4 zombies a turn at close range and about 2.75 at long range. The thunderers will kill about 5.5 zombies at close range and a bit over 4 at long range.

Figure the cannon never misfires and hits 10 zombies per turn (possibly generous), that's another 4 dead zombies. The same goes for the stone thrower.

I dunno how many zombies will get hit by the gyrocopter blast. Let's be generous again and say 15. That's another 5 dead zombies.

The two organ guns will probably do something like an average of 6 or 7 hits per turn, again assuming no missed turns due to misfire. So that's another 6 dead zombies.

So all told, we're probably looking at somewhere on the order of 30 dead zombies a turn due to his entire army shooting at that unit. You should easily be able to out-raise that.


Of course, this is all comically absurd. You don't need a 400 zombie unit to pursue a similar strategy. Starting with maybe 75-100 zombies would be plenty sufficient. That leaves you with a good 1-1.5k points to fill out your army with whatever you want.

Palantir
14-03-2009, 02:43
Wood elf all shooters list (field lots and lots and LOTS of bows) with some flyers thrown in to take on the warmachines perhaps?

Wood elves outrange the dwarf quarrelers and thunderers, no?

Neknoh
14-03-2009, 07:59
Warriors of Chaos with no investmen at all in magic would make for a rather large horde, even with tonnes of Warriors and Knights in the list, and since there is no need whatsoever to grab magic, you can go all out on combat lords, maybe even as far as to go Dual Dragon mounted?

6x5knights with the Mark of Khorne = 1380 points
Two Chaos Lords on Dragons with some basic gifting = 1400 points
That leaves 700 points for Marauder Horsemen units with Flails, the Mark of Khorne and/or Slaanesh.

For added fun, use some of those points to bolster two knight units, 6 units of Marauder Horsemen with Flails, Musician and Mark of Khorne is still a LOT of horsemen to take down, and they do hurt, especially when backed by 30+ Chaos Knights AND two dragons.

Whitesox
14-03-2009, 13:08
Given the amount that your opponent has spent on anti-magic, I'm tempted like previous posters to suggest to just skip magic altogether. That said, given your army choices and your reluctance to play demons twice in a row this might not be a viable approach.

O+G vs a Thorek gunline just seems like a bad idea.

Dark Elves seem like they might have trouble with an army this shooty, but I could be wrong.

That leaves VC, who need magic.

Of course, with 3500 points to play with, it shouldn't be too hard to just flat overpower his 6 dispel dice. Behold:

Lords:

Count Mannfred: 475 points
Vampire Lord w/ Master of the Black Arts + Dark Acolyte: 335 points

Heroes:

4x Vampire w/ Master of the Black Arts: 600 points

Throw in the black periapt on someone and you've spent 1425 points and have a whopping 27 (!!!) power dice to show for it. Of course, you'll likely want to spend a few hundred more points tooling out your characters with additional magic equipment, mounts, etc... but that should leave you plenty of room for the rest of your army.

Even if you just sit back and spam Invocation of Nehek, assuming he succeeds on all six of his dispells you'll raise an average of close to 50 zombies a turn. Add corpse cart with unholy lodestone for even more fun.

I'd love to see you do something silly like play for a draw by dropping a 400 model zombie unit on the board led by one of the vampires kitted out with either the Drakenhoff banner or the Flag of Blood Keep. That should be wide enough to screen whatever else you are bringing. Just march forward with your vampires behind, spamming invocation to replace the losses you'll take from shooting. He'll never kill that unit. I'd love to see the look on his face. Of course, I somehow doubt you own 400 zombies ;)

His quarrelers will kill a bit over 4 zombies a turn at close range and about 2.75 at long range. The thunderers will kill about 5.5 zombies at close range and a bit over 4 at long range.

Figure the cannon never misfires and hits 10 zombies per turn (possibly generous), that's another 4 dead zombies. The same goes for the stone thrower.

I dunno how many zombies will get hit by the gyrocopter blast. Let's be generous again and say 15. That's another 5 dead zombies.

The two organ guns will probably do something like an average of 6 or 7 hits per turn, again assuming no missed turns due to misfire. So that's another 6 dead zombies.

So all told, we're probably looking at somewhere on the order of 30 dead zombies a turn due to his entire army shooting at that unit. You should easily be able to out-raise that.


Of course, this is all comically absurd. You don't need a 400 zombie unit to pursue a similar strategy. Starting with maybe 75-100 zombies would be plenty sufficient. That leaves you with a good 1-1.5k points to fill out your army with whatever you want.


You forgot about Thorek.... he can easily put out 6D6 Strength 4 hits per turn....

Thats hard to stop

swarmofseals
14-03-2009, 13:40
You forgot about Thorek.... he can easily put out 6D6 Strength 4 hits per turn....

Thats hard to stop


True, although all of those hits aren't directed toward the same unit.

There is an 89% chance each turn that he'll strike with ancient power successfully, hitting 1-3 units (average 2) for 7 S4 hits each. Note that this can't hit individual models. Against a zombie unit with the flag of blood keep, you're only looking at another 2.6 zombies killed per turn from that unit plus the hits from 0-2 other units that thorek targets. Even if he hits 3 units a turn always that's still only an average of 12 or so dead zombies total, bringing the total average per turn up to about 42. You should still be able to keep pace with that with your invocations.

Whitesox
14-03-2009, 13:54
True, although all of those hits aren't directed toward the same unit.

There is an 89% chance each turn that he'll strike with ancient power successfully, hitting 1-3 units (average 2) for 7 S4 hits each. Note that this can't hit individual models. Against a zombie unit with the flag of blood keep, you're only looking at another 2.6 zombies killed per turn from that unit plus the hits from 0-2 other units that thorek targets. Even if he hits 3 units a turn always that's still only an average of 12 or so dead zombies total, bringing the total average per turn up to about 42. You should still be able to keep pace with that with your invocations.

also characters can not join zombies....

its under the newly dead special rule

swarmofseals
14-03-2009, 19:39
also characters can not join zombies....

its under the newly dead special rule


Ohh, hmm, right. Good catch. So double all those kills numbers. Either that or take a really large unit of ghouls or skeletons instead of zombies.

Either way, I still maintain that you can probably force a draw like this =)