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Tarax
11-12-2005, 19:00
How do you work out LoS for War Machines? Do you take a crew member or the machine itself?

And, with a cannon, could you then shoot over intervening troops at a target behind, just because a crew member could see it?

Long_Fang
11-12-2005, 21:52
The cannon itself needs to see the target. Mortars can shoot over troops as long as they see an enemy in that direction.

Keller
11-12-2005, 23:24
The cannon itself needs to see the target. Mortars can shoot over troops as long as they see an enemy in that direction.

Incorrect, sir. Stone Throwers do not need direct line of sight, but the Imperial mortars do. One thing I always hated about them, though they are still my favorite warmachine.

T10
12-12-2005, 09:38
Common sense dictates that the warmachine itself cannot "see". Further, a basic understanding of the function the rules attempt to emulate is needed.

For example, a cannon or bolt-thrower presumably fires along a flat trajectory while mortar or stone thrower fire along an arced trajectory.

Thus it would make sense to assume that a cannon cannot fire past a hill or structure, whereas a stone thrower might conceivably make make use of a spotter.

E.g.: A crewman is placed on the hill while the stone thrower is placed behind it.

-T10

Tarax
16-12-2005, 08:37
Noone has found any ruling on this?

I always assumed the LoS was from the War Machines PoV.

BTW using a crew member on top of a hill, to use as a spotter, is IMO cheesy and should be punished by an immediate Misfire roll of 1.

T10
16-12-2005, 10:06
Yes. God, Gav or some other supreme being or agent there-of can be counted on enforcing that rule.

Player: I fire my stone thrower at... What, Missfire? 1? Again?

-T10

Major Defense
16-12-2005, 13:38
There certainly isn't anything I can find stating that crew provide LoS so it is not a violation of common sense to use the machine's LoS. The crew are skirmishing all around the war machine while loading and firing it. So who is to say that one of them can't eyeball down the barrel for a shot - even if the model isn't positioned directly behind it? That's a rhetorical question.

Festus
16-12-2005, 13:49
Hi

There certainly isn't anything I can find stating that crew provide LoS

Please read p. 59 BRB: LoS

Why on earth should crew not provide LoS? The Machine cannot see itself, surely?

Greetings
festus

Tarax
23-12-2005, 08:46
The crew are skirmishing all around the war machine while loading and firing it. So who is to say that one of them can't eyeball down the barrel for a shot - even if the model isn't positioned directly behind it? That's a rhetorical question.

Although they are positioned not in a r&f fashion, they are NOT skirmishers.

It's just my point. One of the crew should have a view from the War Machine in order to see the target, and not 1" away from it and looking around a corner.

Major Defense
23-12-2005, 13:03
Although they are positioned not in a r&f fashion, they are NOT skirmishers.

Nope, sorry, wrong. They can leave their weapon to flee, return from fleeing or to man another war machine and when they do any of these things they do so as skirmishers. I don't have my BRB with me but I distinctly remember fluffy mention of crew clamoring about to load and fire war machines. My point is that you can't aim a war machine by standing next to it so the argument with more meat is that you would use the LoS of the war machine and fluff it into your head that the crew are aiming it.

This really didn't need to be this long of a thread.

SuperBeast
23-12-2005, 13:07
This really didn't need to be this long of a thread.

GW, give this man a job.
Truly, we are not worthy. :rolleyes:

Because all you've said about warmachine crew is that they follow normal movement rules.
If their rules do not specify skirmishers, they ain't.
And bringing fluff into a rules discussion is really not of any use.

If you hear hoofbeats, think "Horsey", not "Zebra".

Festus
23-12-2005, 13:36
Hi

They can leave their weapon to flee, return from fleeing or to man another war machine and when they do any of these things they do so as skirmishers.
Definitely wrong: Fleeing units do not have any kind of formation, and Crews are a (almost) normal unit if not at their machine.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
23-12-2005, 14:42
How do you work out LoS for War Machines? Do you take a crew member or the machine itself?

How I work it out from the war machine. But its been a discussion before and I've been on both sides in real action. So now I let my opponents work it out however they want.

I think the assumptions are to take LOS from the cannon but the rules say otherwise.



And, with a cannon, could you then shoot over intervening troops at a target behind, just because a crew member could see it?
I tried that once and was voted down at a club.

How about putting a cannon on the ground but leaving one model on top of a hill, but within 1 inch?

Or stretching out the crew to be up to 3 inches to the side of the cannon.

If the crew changes position to take advantage of its line of slight, does the warmachine count as moving? IF not, can it do this during the shooting phase? What if the crew is moved by the cannon barrel when the barrel is realigned?

CANNON Cannons are fired in the Shooting phase. To fire a cannon, it must first be turned on the spot so it points in the direction of the target which must be within line of sight but otherwise is not limited by targeting restrictions. Then the player must declare how far the cannon is going to shoot Chron 4, 123

Major Defense
23-12-2005, 15:13
Somebody call a waaaahmbulance!

Arguments like "no fluff" and "almost normal" are just as thin. Of course I'm not going to waste my day arguing wihtout a BRB in front of me so this post will serve as a placeholder until I can show you the way.

SuperBeast
23-12-2005, 15:25
Arguments like "no fluff" and "almost normal" are just as thin.
Not in a rules discussion they aren't.
I can cite fluff from any number of official sources that directly contradict or contravene the rules in some way.
That doesn't mean the rules are wrong.
There's a reason it's referred to as "fluff".
This is a rules thread, and therefore fluff is not relevant.
And I have no idea where the "almost normal" suggestion came from.

[edit: over to Mage Ith & Festus from here on in...]

mageith
23-12-2005, 15:42
This is a rules thread, and therefore fluff is not relevant.

I'm not so sure (speaking generally and not especially to the discussion at hand.)

Unless the rules are perfectly clear, we use many methods to determine the 'truth'. I think fluff is just as relevant as the rules for constructing English sentences or the definitons of words taken from such places as dictionary.com. Or was as used earlier in this thread "common sense", even though that very term is used in the rules (59, first paragraph).



As Festus said above, and as the BRB will tell you, when not manning a warmachine for whatever reason, the crew move as normal R&F.

??? War machines, page 21, Chron 2002 "While not physically crewing a machine, the crew should be treated as a skirmishing unit in all respects."

except

"Remember that while not within 1 inch of their machine, the crew must always flee with charged; they never declare chargers or otherwise fight in close combat."

Perhaps this has changed?



They flee the same as R&F, they rally as R&F, and they move to their new machine/destination as R&F. They 'skirmish' purely for the purposes of manning the actual gun, and it's not true skirmishing - it's for display purposes only.
See above.

Festus
23-12-2005, 15:49
Hi

War machines, page 21, Chron 2002 "While not physically crewing a machine, the crew should be treated as a skirmishing unit in all respects."
I just love Gav making up rules as he goes along. This is not even remotely connected to the actual rules in the BRB, although one could argue along Gav's and Major Defense's line of thought that it would make sense if it were like this.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
23-12-2005, 16:00
Hi

I just love Gav making up rules as he goes along.

:) That's kinda his job.



This is not even remotely connected to the actual rules in the BRB,

??? Where does it state otherwise? It implies it on page 40. Anything stronger?



although one could argue along Gav's and Major Defense's line of thought that it would make sense if it were like this.

It is like this. Or at least, I've never seen it played otherwise.

In the BRB the crew appears to be skirmishing (at least follows the same one inch rule) when manning the crew. When it leaves the machine its an illogical leap (to me anyhow) that they suddenly march shoulder to shoulder in a single three model rank. In fact, until this thread I never even heard this interpretation before.

I think it comes from your assumption that the default formation for models is rank and file and that can be taken from page 40 to be true. Apparently Gav wanted to dispel that interpretation in his commentary.

This is the second time that you have denigrated the commentaries that Gav wrote early in 6th edition. On the other forums I populate they are taken as the next thing to rules and have the same power. I prefer that over ignoring them. But each to his own.

Mage Ith

Festus
23-12-2005, 16:07
Hi

This is the second time that you have denigrated the commentaries that Gav wrote early in 6th edition. On the other forums I populate they are taken as the next thing to rules and have the same power. I prefer that over ignoring them. But each to his own.
I do see the authority of Gav's views on all things WHFB rules.

The only thing I really don't see is why those rules that he makes up are not integrated into the rest of the body of the rules.

They (GW) publish FAQ's and Errata periodically, if not regularly. It would be all too easy to incorporate any rules into the existing system while they are at it.

I don't like having to look up 101 places to find the one sentence that I desperately need in the heat of battle. I prefer to have them all in one place (or at least in the BRB and the additionl FAQ and Errata).

Greetings
Festus

mageith
23-12-2005, 16:31
I do see the authority of Gav's views on all things WHFB rules.

The only thing I really don't see is why those rules that he makes up are not integrated into the rest of the body of the rules.

They (GW) publish FAQ's and Errata periodically, if not regularly. It would be all too easy to incorporate any rules into the existing system while they are at it.

Couple of things. Apparently GW is NOT publishing these any more and hasn't for nearly two years. The skipping of the Chronicles last year and this year, for example. Gav has also stated that GW will only be publishing actual corrections and misprints (which you and I might call errata but apparently GW doesn't). For them, errata is generally an actual and purposeful change of rules.

Even the Q&A are hard to come by. Still none for Brets, for example. And they aren't publishing them like they used to, in paper form, but on the internet which isn't really good for everyone and sometimes they get lost for a while.



I don't like having to look up 101 places to find the one sentence that I desperately need in the heat of battle. I prefer to have them all in one place (or at least in the BRB and the additionl FAQ and Errata).

I agree but apparently GW doesn't. The commentaries were completely out of print for a while too and their actual authority isn't clear. The Arcane Lore is, in fact, merely commentary, per Gav's own writing, but its commentary that is written by the Loremaster. Remember Gav didn't write the rules, but merely inherited them. The commentary gained their exalted position early on in sixth edition.

I used to argue that the rules should take precedence over these commentaries, especially where they clearly contradicted. That never flew, so now I take the opposite view and revere the articles over the rules because they are newer and because that's how they will probably be in the long awaited next edition.

Sometimes the commentary makes things worse, IMO, but so be it. In the case of skirmishing like war machine crew, I think it made it better but I could have lived with it either way. But a skirmishing crew at least makes it possible for them to cross the field of battle and recrew another machine. A rank and file crew would never do it having to wheel and be march blocked.

Mage Ith

Griefbringer
23-12-2005, 16:45
Notice that the commentary on war-machines changed between WD and Annual 2002 - on the original WD article it was mentioned that cannons did not need LoS and could fire over hills and such. This quickly earned Mr Thorpe the nickname of Cannon-Gav.

DarkTerror
28-12-2005, 06:16
I joined this topic late, but as far as I can see there wasn't really an answer.

A war machine obviously can't see on its own, which is the point of the crew. Here comes my real question though, which direction are the crew facing? Can you position them in a circle to see all around? Can a war machine stop scouts from deploying by simply looking "all" directions?

As far as I can tell the only way to get around this is to make the machine itself the seeing member with a 45 degree LOS.

I've been looking for an answer to this question for a VERY long time.

Festus
28-12-2005, 08:02
Hi

A war machine obviously can't see on its own, which is the point of the crew. Here comes my real question though, which direction are the crew facing? Can you position them in a circle to see all around? Can a war machine stop scouts from deploying by simply looking "all" directions?
There is no need for it:

The Warmachine may turn on the spot in the shooting phase to line up with its target. BRB, pp.120 ff

It does not have to determine LoS prematurely in the Movement phase.

This still does not really answer the question, but the Arc of Fire of the WM becomes irrelevant.

Greetings
Festus

Major Defense
28-12-2005, 15:44
this post will serve as a placeholder until I can show you the way.

Thanks, Mageith, for saving me the trouble. I knew I saw wording somewhere describing crew as skirmishers. I'm sure that one could argue their need to use a crew member's LoS for targetting but with weapons like bolt throwers it wouldn't help and it makes infinitely more sense to use the weapon's LoS.

Gorog Irongut
28-12-2005, 16:02
I may run over and ask queek over at bugman's for the reference, but I remember him mentioning that the crew have 360 degree sight. This is in particularly helpful when you place a character in a warmachine unit. This means that he or she (whether on a single, cavalry, monster base etc.) is able to charge where and how he/she chooses as he gains the 360 degrees.

Festus
28-12-2005, 16:31
Hi

...the crew have 360 degree sight. This is in particularly helpful when you place a character in a warmachine unit. This means that he or she (whether on a single, cavalry, monster base etc.) is able to charge where and how he/she chooses as he gains the 360 degrees.
No, this will not work.

You can either charge with the whole unit or with the character itself.
As we are talking about a WarMachine crew here, the unit may *Never* charge, as it is not allowed to leave the Machine voluntarily.

The character charging out has to use his own LoS, not the units LoS. The character has to declare the charge, not the unit. Thus the relevant LoS is the character's LoS and not the unit's LoS.

Compare Skirmishers. Any other characters apart from US1 models are not even allowed to join skirmishers. This is just to stop this.

Greetings
Festus

metro_gnome
28-12-2005, 19:11
just want to complicate this thread with a question that has been brewing in my mind for a while...

does a large target warmachine (like the hellcannon) have large target LoS? ie see over troops in the way...

in answer to the original question the BRB supports crew LoS...

mageith
29-12-2005, 04:00
does a large target warmachine (like the hellcannon) have large target LoS? ie see over troops in the way...


Yes. Page 59 second to last paragraph.

Mage Ith

oma
29-12-2005, 09:29
it would be very odd if the crewmember is in charge of where the cannon can shoot, just hide the cannon behind a wall and put the crewmember out from the wall so he can see, the cannon would *fluffwise* shoot through the wall to hit the target intended... make sense? not in my head..

if it was a mortar, or stonethrower it could just shoot over the wall so that i would accept, but cannon or boltthrower no..

another question, if boltthrower has an engineer crew (making BS higher) does he need to see the target for them to use his higher BS?

Gorog Irongut
29-12-2005, 10:51
Hi

No, this will not work.

You can either charge with the whole unit or with the character itself.
As we are talking about a WarMachine crew here, the unit may *Never* charge, as it is not allowed to leave the Machine voluntarily.

The character charging out has to use his own LoS, not the units LoS. The character has to declare the charge, not the unit. Thus the relevant LoS is the character's LoS and not the unit's LoS.

Compare Skirmishers. Any other characters apart from US1 models are not even allowed to join skirmishers. This is just to stop this.

Greetings
Festus

I went over to clarify and this was queek's response:

"war machine crews count as skirmishers, per the US chart. While the gun may be freely pivoted, the crew itself can see 360 as well.

Most times, this isn't a big deal, but adding a character to the mix functionally gives the character 360 as well. A bit of a dirty trick for mounted Engineers and folks like Bronzino. I wouldn't recommend trying it with a Griffon-rider. . . ."

Unfortunately I don't have the US chart so I can't confirm this. As for the debate of the feasability of the above tactic, I would agree with queek.

True=warmachine crews can't charge
True=US1 models joining skirmishing units
True=US1 charging out of a skirmishing unit retains their LOS just like his LOS is restricted in a ranked up unit when he charges out.
True=characters are able to charge out of a warmachine unit

In my opinion it's a bit of an oversight by the rules developers, but if the US chart confirms that they are considered to have a "skirmisher" status you have two options:
1. The mounted engineer has 360 degree los
2. Only US1 models are ever able to join a warmachine.

I personally put more credence to point 1.

me

p.s. I personally think that US1 models being only allowed to join skirmishers is down to far more than gaining their LOS. The benefits would be massive for a character to wander around with the -1 to hit, to double move without marching, etc. The warmachine's "skirmishing", if it can be called that, has none of those benefits. I can't see why they would restrict it.

Atrahasis
29-12-2005, 11:08
Queek is making an ussumption unsupported by the rules - nothing in the rules suggests that a character with 90 degree LOS joining a unit with 360 LOS gains 360 LOS.

If the character is the one declaring the charge, the character must have LOS to the target, and as he does not gain the LOS of the unit, he does not have LOS.

Festus
29-12-2005, 12:09
Hi

Exactly as Atrahasis put it.
The joining of a Skirmisher unit does not make the character a skirmisher himself, thus he gains no 360 LoS.

Or to put it the other way round:

If the War Machine Crew are considered Skirmishers, then they can only be joined by US1 characters as per the BRB.

Both cases make this *trick :rolleyes:* impossible.

Whoever this *queek* may be, he is talking definitely nonsense here...

Greetings
Festus

mageith
29-12-2005, 13:44
Hi

Exactly as Atrahasis put it.
The joining of a Skirmisher unit does not make the character a skirmisher himself, thus he gains no 360 LoS.

I think the question Queek is answering is a character joining as CREW. At least those were the examples he gave. Simply joining a war machine UNIT probably doesn't give 360 sight.



If the War Machine Crew are considered Skirmishers, then they can only be joined by US1 characters as per the BRB.

Except they specfically can join war machines. So this is irrelevant. War machine crews ARE treated as skirmishers and they can be joined as well as the whole war machine be joined.

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
29-12-2005, 14:10
Simply joining a war machine UNIT probably doesn't give 360 sight.

Definitely, not probably. We can only do what the rules say we can do ;)

mageith
29-12-2005, 14:23
Definitely, not probably. We can only do what the rules say we can do ;)

I don't think its as cut and dried as you suggest, but it might be.

In early 6th, any model could join a skirmisher unit and (apparently) gain its properties (At least that was the prevailing opinion at the time). Rather than deal with the character side of the rules, GW simply said only models on foot could join skirmishers, through an errata.

This left the whole we are discussing today. The war machine is a skirmishing unit that any character can join. A war machine is the machine plus the crew. I think that there is a difference between merely joining and joining as crew, but there might not be.

Mage Ith

Atrahasis
29-12-2005, 14:32
I think that there is a difference between merely joining and joining as crew, but there might not be.

There certainly is, at least as far as misfires go.

Given that war machine crews cannot themselves charge, and so teh character would have to charge alone, it stands to reason that he himself would need LOS to the target. I cannot see how the crew would lend 360 LOS where a normal ranked unit would not lend their LOS to a character charging out from that unit.

Festus
29-12-2005, 15:07
Hi

In early 6th, any model could join a skirmisher unit and (apparently) gain its properties (At least that was the prevailing opinion at the time). Rather than deal with the character side of the rules, GW simply said only models on foot could join skirmishers, through an errata.

That is the first I hear...

I own a German BRB of the first print run, released simultaneously with the UK edition, and in my BRB it states that Skirmishing units may only ever be joined by a character on foot.

As there were no monstrous characters that could fulfill these rules (no Ogre characters, no Minos IIRC, and no Skirmishers in Daemon Armies, it boiled down to US1 models.

Or is there something I have missed?

Greetings
Festus

mageith
29-12-2005, 15:14
Given that war machine crews cannot themselves charge, and so teh character would have to charge alone, it stands to reason that he himself would need LOS to the target. I cannot see how the crew would lend 360 LOS where a normal ranked unit would not lend their LOS to a character charging out from that unit.

"Stands to reason"? Reason? You've stooped to new lows. :) Besides the ever-vigilant crew might very well see a danger approaching them and let the character know. "Charge him, Sir!" Isn't that reasonable too?

Lending LOS? This, of course, is part of another unresolved issue: Characters charging out of units. How much are they like the unit they charge out of and how much are they independent?

This answer affects, among other things, whether the charging charcter might have to take a fear test, how S&S is resolved, where he ends up if he fails the fear test, how the rest of the unit can Move if he does and now in the case of war machines might he can an undeserved 360 line of sight. OTOH, the prevailing opinion is that small characters suffer from the restricted LOS of the unit, even in the charge and if casting or shooting, isn't it?

I can't quote it at the moment (I'm at work), but doesn't a character that joins a unit become like it in all respects?

Mostly I think that non-crew characters cannot take advantage of the crew's LOS because joining the crew and joining the war machine are different things. But they might not be in GW's eyes.

Mage Ith

mageith
29-12-2005, 15:21
Hi

That is the first I hear...

I own a German BRB of the first print run, released simultaneously with the UK edition, and in my BRB it states that Skirmishing units may only ever be joined by a character on foot.

That's because you are a johnnie come lately to the rules interp scene. :) I looked at it this morning.

Apparently the German first run is newer than the US first run.

I'll try to remember to quote it for you tonight so that your history is complete. :)



As there were no monstrous characters that could fulfill these rules (no Ogre characters, no Minos IIRC, and no Skirmishers in Daemon Armies, it boiled down to US1 models.

Or is there something I have missed?


Yes. The English first edition.

Also, when a character joins a unit, he becomes like it in all respects except as noted doesn't he? So the question comes down what exactly does the character join? Can we really differentiate between joining the crew and joining the war machine when it comes to big character Line of Sight. I think we can, but I can see the other side, too.

Mage Ith

Festus
29-12-2005, 15:47
Hi

I can't quote it at the moment (I'm at work), but doesn't a character that joins a unit become like it in all respects?

No, I do not think so. He becomes a member of the unit in all respect, but not *like it*.

It is normal for a model to have 90 LoS. If a US1 character is not part of any unit, he gains 360.
It is not the other way round. Ie. he doesn't lose his 360 if he joins a unit, because he only has this enlarged LoS as a side effect of his being alone.

Greetings
Festus

Gorog Irongut
29-12-2005, 17:04
Hi

No, I do not think so. He becomes a member of the unit in all respect, but not *like it*.

It is normal for a model to have 90 LoS. If a US1 character is not part of any unit, he gains 360.
It is not the other way round. Ie. he doesn't lose his 360 if he joins a unit, because he only has this enlarged LoS as a side effect of his being alone.

Greetings
Festus

Until GW errata's this it could play either way. How much of the unit's effect is conferred on him? If you join a fast cavalry unit you get their movement abilities but not their shooting abilities. How much of this "skirmish"-like state is conferred on the character?

I personally don't think that being part of the crew will change this. That is related entirely to the firing of the warmachine. And in fact if the Engineer (for simplicity sake) is using his ability that means that he is unable to fire his personal missile weapon or stand and shoot (Chronicles 04 pg.114). This almost sounds skirmisher-esque to me. The character is able to stand and shoot barring a used crew ability. No additional comments were made regarding whether or not he had LoS.

BTW I disagree about it being normal for a model to get 90 degree LOS. A character's normal state is not necessarily with him being in a unit. And even if this is the case, then when he joins a unit of skirmishers his 90 degree LoS is exchanged for that of the skirmishing unit (i.e. 360). If this is the case then the rules of the unit overule those of the character.

Festus
29-12-2005, 17:41
Hi

Until GW errata's this it could play either way. How much of the unit's effect is conferred on him? If you join a fast cavalry unit you get their movement abilities but not their shooting abilities. How much of this "skirmish"-like state is conferred on the character?
Until GW errataes it (again), it can only go one way: A US2+ character will always have 90 LoS.
There is nothing else in the rules that contradicts this.

The fast cav example *is* already an errata, because without that, a character could not benefit from the fast cav abilities (there still is no fast cav character I am aware of).


I personally don't think that being part of the crew will change this. That is related entirely to the firing of the warmachine. And in fact if the Engineer (for simplicity sake) is using his ability that means that he is unable to fire his personal missile weapon or stand and shoot (Chronicles 04 pg.114). This almost sounds skirmisher-esque to me. The character is able to stand and shoot barring a used crew ability. No additional comments were made regarding whether or not he had LoS.
A very bad example, as any engineer that can do so is already a US1 model, and thus eliglible to LoS 360.

Nothing contradictory here.


BTW I disagree about it being normal for a model to get 90 degree LOS. A character's normal state is not necessarily with him being in a unit. And even if this is the case, then when he joins a unit of skirmishers his 90 degree LoS is exchanged for that of the skirmishing unit (i.e. 360). If this is the case then the rules of the unit overule those of the character.
Disagree as much as you like, as the BRB diagrees with you... (BRB p.59):rolleyes:

All models have a LoS of 90 directly ahead.

This can be changed by special rules. One such rule can be found in the Skirmish section (BRB p. 115), another one in the section on characters (BRB p.95 and relevant erratae).

As there is nothing about a *skirmishing unit* transferring any rules regarding skirmishers to the character that may have joined them, it doesn't transfer any rules.

Simple, really.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
29-12-2005, 20:31
Until GW errata's this it could play either way. How much of the unit's effect is conferred on him?

All of it. He loses his psych, he loses any movement bonuses, he is now a ranked model. Of course, there are especially noted exceptions, lots of them, really.

such as...


If you join a fast cavalry unit you get their movement abilities but not their shooting abilities. How much of this "skirmish"-like state is conferred on the character?

I personally don't think that being part of the crew will change this. That is related entirely to the firing of the warmachine. And in fact if the Engineer (for simplicity sake) is using his ability that means that he is unable to fire his personal missile weapon or stand and shoot (Chronicles 04 pg.114). This almost sounds skirmisher-esque to me. The character is able to stand and shoot barring a used crew ability. No additional comments were made regarding whether or not he had LoS.

This would be my argument. That joining a war machine and joining the crew of a war machine are different things.



BTW I disagree about it being normal for a model to get 90 degree LOS. A character's normal state is not necessarily with him being in a unit.
This is confusing a lot of people. There are no longer CHARACTER rules about single models it is a MODEL rule. All MODELS have 90 degree LOS unless specfically noted. Small characters as well as human-sized survivors of large units Move as Skirmishers. Skirmishing and being human-sized are not intrinsically related. I suppose GW could make a skirmishing Dragon (Hydra) if they so desired, as an exeption to the general rule.



And even if this is the case, then when he joins a unit of skirmishers his 90 degree LoS is exchanged for that of the skirmishing unit (i.e. 360). If this is the case then the rules of the unit overule those of the character.
I agree this is what the joining rule ("in all respects") says, IMO. It is an overriding general rule. However, there are so many exceptions to this overriding general rule, the general rule begins to look like an exception itself.

However, if someone would quote the rule about "all respects", it might makes things clearer (or not).

Mage Ith

Festus
29-12-2005, 20:59
Hi

However, if someone would quote the rule about "all respects", it might makes things clearer (or not).

To quote said rule, it should exist.

The BRB just says that the character becomes part of the unit. Nothing about *in all respects* in the rulebook.

Checking the annual....

Nothing. Neither in the FAQ nor the errata....

Waiting for input...

Festus

Festus
29-12-2005, 21:04
Hi

All of it. He loses his psych, he loses any movement bonuses, he is now a ranked model. Of course, there are especially noted exceptions, lots of them, really.

IMO, he loses nothing, he cannot lose anything. He can only gain.

If he joins a unit, he gains protection, he maybe gains some immunities against psy, and he may even gain some movement benefits (like in fast cav).

If he does not join a unit, he gains maneuvrability (always march), and he gains LoS (360 instead of the regular 90)

It may be that he gains something disadvantageous in certain situations, like being affected by stupidity movement or other unit psychology, but this is due to him becoming a part of the unit and the unit botching it in the first place - in spite of the character's help with his (usually) increased Ld.

Greetings
Festus

mageith
30-12-2005, 01:56
Hi

To quote said rule, it should exist.

The BRB just says that the character becomes part of the unit. Nothing about *in all respects* in the rulebook.

Checking the annual....

Nothing. Neither in the FAQ nor the errata....

Waiting for input...

Festus
Page 100 "And when a character is with a unit of troops he is considered to be part of the unit in all respects." It then goes on with four paragraphs about the implications of this general rule. Its under INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS AND UNIT PSYCHOLOGY, but its implications include charging and pursuing as well as the psychologies.

On page 96, INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS MOVING WITH UNITS: "If a character forms part of a unit of troops, then unit as a whole will dictate his maximum movement. He simply moves along like an ordinary member of the the unit. If the character moves more slowly than his unit than the whole unit will have to slow down so that he can keep up with them."

Page 121, (replacing page 95) Chron IV INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS JOING UNITS: "...during the course of battle, a character is allow to join a friendly unit of ordinary troops, in which case he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it." It doesn't say 'all respects' here, but what else could it mean since it doesn't give any guidelines here. We are left for the exceptions in other rules.

I think all this indicates a character joining a unit of troops becomes like them except for noted exceptions (which are many).

But in reality, I don't think our conclusions are radically different. I think a character can join a warmachine but doesn't actually join the crew so he doesn't become a skirmisher, though he's moving in a loose formation. His LOS remains the same. However a character, even mounted, that actually joins the CREW becomes a skirmisher. Fortunately those are rare cases.

Mage Ith

Festus
30-12-2005, 08:50
Hi

Page 100 "And when a character is with a unit of troops he is considered to be part of the unit in all respects." It then goes on with four paragraphs about the implications of this general rule. Its under INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS AND UNIT PSYCHOLOGY, but its implications include charging and pursuing as well as the psychologies.

p. 100 1st column is just concerned with characters and unit psychology.

The first paragraph summarizes the point and talks about breaking and pursuing (Why this is within unit psychology is beyond me, as the distinction between psy and breaking is rather strictly enforced in the rest of the rules) , the second, third and fourth talk about Panic, Terror, Frenzy/Hatred and Fear, or Stupidity, or Immunities respectively.


On page 96, INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS MOVING WITH UNITS: "If a character forms part of a unit of troops, then unit as a whole will dictate his maximum movement. He simply moves along like an ordinary member of the the unit. If the character moves more slowly than his unit than the whole unit will have to slow down so that he can keep up with them."
Changed the empasis... ;)


Page 121, (replacing page 95) Chron IV INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS JOING UNITS: "...during the course of battle, a character is allow to join a friendly unit of ordinary troops, in which case he becomes part of that unit until he decides to leave it." It doesn't say 'all respects' here, but what else could it mean since it doesn't give any guidelines here. We are left for the exceptions in other rules.
Part of a unit means that he cannot operate alone anymore until he decides to leave said unit, which he can only do in the next movement phases at the earliest.


I think all this indicates a character joining a unit of troops becomes like them except for noted exceptions (which are many).
Well, I still don't think so, I just think that he becomes a part of the unit and that both have to share the fate of the other, but not necessarily the rules...


But in reality, I don't think our conclusions are radically different. I think a character can join a warmachine but doesn't actually join the crew so he doesn't become a skirmisher, though he's moving in a loose formation. His LOS remains the same. However a character, even mounted, that actually joins the CREW becomes a skirmisher. Fortunately those are rare cases.
Is there any possibility of a US2+ model acting as crew of Machine? Oh, the Imperial Engineer can ride a horse, or can't he?

But you are of course right. We are very close in our interpretation that the character doesn't gain the abilities of a Skirmisher but is a part of a unit in loose formation...

BTW:

War machines, page 21, Chron 2002 "While not physically crewing a machine, the crew should be treated as a skirmishing unit in all respects."
Is there anything that makes the crew skirmishers when crewing the gun, or are they a unit in loose formation?
The aforementioned BaseSizeChart doesn't say anything about WarMachine Crews being skirmishers while acting as crew. So this is just another one of *Queek's* pieces of slight misinformation...

Greetings
Festus

mageith
30-12-2005, 15:17
Festusp. 100 1st column is just concerned with characters and unit psychology.
...
The first paragraph summarizes the point and talks about breaking and pursuing (Why this is within unit psychology is beyond me,
...

Because as much as you want them to be the rules aren't set out that cleanly.


Changed the empasis... ;)

In your opinion. I'm just pointing out relevant portions while trying not to remove the context.


Part of a unit means that he cannot operate alone anymore until he decides to leave said unit, which he can only do in the next movement phases at the earliest.


Again, this is your opinion. Unless you have some sort of special knowledge you aren't sharing. In addition to not operating alone, in a ranked unit, his LOS is restricted and he is dragged along by the unit and most of his psychology is subverted to the unit's psychology. There are only a few general things a model does: Move, fight, shoot and cast magic: The major phases. All these are impinged upon by joining a unit. Its a big thing.


Well, I still don't think so, I just think that he becomes a part of the unit and that both have to share the fate of the other, but not necessarily the rules...

Really? So how do we decide that the characters LOS is restricted in a unit? A unit doesn't have a line of sight, just the models in it. IMO, his LOS is restricted because he now follows the rules of a model within a unit. LOS impinges upong Movement (charging), shooting and casting magic. It even impinges upon psychology in certain cases.

I guess well just have to disagree here. I think the general rule is that when a character joins a unit he becomes like the unit in all respects: Move, shooting, LOS and combat as well as psychology. However there are SO MANY exceptions (Ld, Fear, Terror, being shot at, limited placement within the unit, Movement within the unit) that the generality of this rule isn't readily apparent. But LOS isn't one of the exceptions, is it?

It really has to be this way (all respects) for game balance, doesn't it? If it worked the other way, the unit would get lots of benefits for free.


Is there any possibility of a US2+ model acting as crew of Machine? Oh, the Imperial Engineer can ride a horse, or can't he?

Bronzino. The engineer my ride a barded warhorse and replace a crewman.



BTW:
Is there anything that makes the crew skirmishers when crewing the gun, or are they a unit in loose formation?
The aforementioned BaseSizeChart doesn't say anything about WarMachine Crews being skirmishers while acting as crew.

Interesting point. The entire rule is "War Machines: Have a Unit Strength equal to the number of crew left. Move as Skirmishers, with the exceptions noted in their rules." Chron 04 114

Then go to the Move as Skirmishers (Capitalized so it refers to that) rules on the same page and then go to the crew rules on yet another page and put it all together. 'Move as Skirmishers' obviously refers to the whole gamut of skirmisher rules on page 114 which includes 360 LOS.


So this is just another one of *Queek's* pieces of slight misinformation...
Don't you worry about Queek. I watch him closely. He's pretty darn good but I've caught him in a few. He's got no axe to grind and readily admits if he makes a mistake. If the issue is cloudy, he almost always says "Your mileage may vary." He's no more official than you or I or any little boy named Kevin.

Mileage.

Gorog Irongut
30-12-2005, 15:28
Is there any possibility of a US2+ model acting as crew of Machine? Oh, the Imperial Engineer can ride a horse, or can't he?

The aforementioned BaseSizeChart doesn't say anything about WarMachine Crews being skirmishers while acting as crew. So this is just another one of *Queek's* pieces of slight misinformation...

Greetings
Festus


Yes you can have mounted engineers in an empire army. I killed one last GT. So with that taken in light of the stand and shoot comment made in a previous post tends to give the character free LoS when NOT using his crew ability. This in and of itself tells me that it wouldn't simply be if he acts as the crew as ANY character can stand and shoot. Here's the quote by the way:

Q. If a character joins a war machine and has a missile weapon, could he stand & fire with that weapon?
A. Unless specifically acting as crew (i.e. an Engineer who used his ability the previous turn), a character who joins a war machine unit is not considered crew and so may stand and shoot.
S. Warhammer Chronicles 2004 pg. 114

Last time I checked there were no restrictions on a character not being able to join a war machine due to it size... and therefore LoS.

I'm asking him to clarify the US chart comment. Doubtful that it was an attempt at misinformation. More likely a simple mistake.

Regarding the question of 90 degree LoS. I did check your quote and it seems to be speaking more of models belonging to a unit. It was also in the uber simplified version of the rules. If you want to look at it that way feel free it's simply perspective.

Q. How does the sole remaining model of a formerly ranked unit move? For example, if a unit of empire handgunners is reduced to 1 model, how does the sole remaining model move? Does he still have to pay to wheel, etc.? Does he still cause enemy units to form up on him? Or does he follow the single models movement chart?
A. He moves like a single model on foot - freely, like a character on foot (and thanks his lucky stars he's still around!).
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

To me it seems like semantics so, pointless to argue.

mageith
30-12-2005, 15:54
Q. How does the sole remaining model of a formerly ranked unit move? For example, if a unit of empire handgunners is reduced to 1 model, how does the sole remaining model move? Does he still have to pay to wheel, etc.? Does he still cause enemy units to form up on him? Or does he follow the single models movement chart?
A. He moves like a single model on foot - freely, like a character on foot (and thanks his lucky stars he's still around!).
S. Gav Thorpe - Warhammer Design Team

This is from Direwolf, isn't it.

I think Gav is saying it follows the single models movement chart, the character portion is just an example, IMO.

In the beginning of 6e, characters had free movement and that eventually changed, through several permutations, from a CHARACTER rule to a MODEL rule. Gav likens this to a character because that is the most common single model and one of the few that begins a game as a single model (another would be a Banshee). We went through a short period where we had 'monstrous characters' with restricted LOS but eventually only human sized MODELS on foot and alone and/or skirmishers were granted this ability.

Its this very issue that is bugging us on this thread: Can a larger than human character be a skirmisher? Clearly yes: We have Pegasus knights and other mounted cavalry as well as Bronzino and Imperial Engineers. The second part is does joining a war machine make a character a skirmisher? This is murkier but I think there is plenty of precedent for differentiating between a character with a war machine and a crew of a war machine. I'd say a character joins a war machine (but not the crew) and neither gains nor loses his natural LOS but only because of specific rules, not as a general rule.

A side issue is whether a large character joining a war machine gains any protection from the war machine? Is shooting randomized or can he be picked out. If picked out, can a shooter pick out merely the war machine and then there is no randomization on the character? IMO, the rules here are in direct conflict and there is no answer.

The good thing is that I don't think I can remember any truely large character ever joining a war machine and I've never played Bronzino nor a mounted Imperial Engineer so the issue hopefully comes up very rarely. I hope it gets answered, but I can easily live without an answer to this one.

Mage Ith

Festus
30-12-2005, 16:24
Hi

As always, much of what you say makes very much sense.
But not so with the LoS in a unit.

A character is not restricted in his LoS by joining a unit!

Any model has 90 LoS.
A special rule is in effect giving Skirmishers 360 LoS.
A single character of US1 *gains* this rule (ie. 360 LoS among other things).
As soon as he joins any unit but a skirmishing unit, he reverts back to the normal rules again.




So how do we decide that the characters LOS is restricted in a unit? A unit doesn't have a line of sight, just the models in it. IMO, his LOS is restricted because he now follows the rules of a model within a unit.
Now he has 90 because he follows the normal rules.

He is not restricted, but cannot benefit from the special rule anymore. It's just as if he was mounted: The bonus of the special rule ceases to apply in this case, too.

Gretings
Festus

Gorog Irongut
30-12-2005, 16:30
This is from Direwolf, isn't it.

I think Gav is saying it follows the single models movement chart, the character portion is just an example, IMO.

A side issue is whether a large character joining a war machine gains any protection from the war machine? Is shooting randomized or can he be picked out. If picked out, can a shooter pick out merely the war machine and then there is no randomization on the character? IMO, the rules here are in direct conflict and there is no answer.

The good thing is that I don't think I can remember any truely large character ever joining a war machine and I've never played Bronzino nor a mounted Imperial Engineer so the issue hopefully comes up very rarely. I hope it gets answered, but I can easily live without an answer to this one.

Mage Ith

Yes it's from direwolf. They're relatively clear and concise and tell you when it's one of their rulings.

No more side issues here. The water's are already murky enough.

You are correct that the issues comes up hardly never. But, it does come in helpful when trying to answer the original question asked at the beginning of the thread...

mageith
30-12-2005, 16:51
Yes it's from direwolf. They're relatively clear and concise and tell you when it's one of their rulings.

No more side issues here. The water's are already murky enough.

What side issues? The rule is a MODEL issue not a CHARACTER issue. Is this the side issue to which you refer?

Ith

Gorog Irongut
30-12-2005, 17:21
These are the side issues that I was referring to:

A side issue is whether a large character joining a war machine gains any protection from the war machine? Is shooting randomized or can he be picked out. If picked out, can a shooter pick out merely the war machine and then there is no randomization on the character?

As for the model/character issue, I already consider it resolved until there is an errata.

mageith
30-12-2005, 17:25
Hi

As always, much of what you say makes very much sense.
But not so with the LoS in a unit.

A character is not restricted in his LoS by joining a unit!

Yes a character is.

Its mostly semantics, but here goes:

A character begins the game UNJOINED to a unit and so if he's human sized, on foot and alone he does IN FACT have 360 degree line of sight at the beginning of the game. So when he does join a unit (or is deployed with it) his 360 LOS is restricted. Its part of the decision the player has to make. In other words, these characters have 360 sight to lose.

The result is the same, but I certainly consider this question in terms of losing 360 line of sight when I deploy a character with a unit.

In other words the 'normal rule' on page 41 is superseded when a human sized model is alone as he is during the beginning of the game (ie deployment). Its not until he's deployed that his line of sight is determined. Until that point, he has it all. If he's deployed in a normal ranked unit, he loses 75% visibility. If he later joins a similar unit, the same thing happens.



A special rule is in effect giving Skirmishers 360 LoS.

Not quite true. The rules are for SINGLE MODELS on page 114. The description of the benefits of a single model are called MOVE AS SKIRMISHERS. Its not a skirmisher rule. Its a single model rule. That's the heading of the rule: 'UNIT STRENGTH AND SINGLE MODEL'S MOVEMENT'.

Certain single models Move as Skirmishers, so do skirmishers and so do war machine crew and so does any model in and around buildings. To further clarify/confuse the issue "Move as Skirmishers" encompasses more than mere Moving: It includes effects on shooting, casting, flanks and rears as well as Line of Sight issues "for charging, etc." (Chron 04 114)

Mage Ith
Trying to make sense out of the senseless. :)

mageith
30-12-2005, 17:31
A side issue is whether a large character joining a war machine gains any protection from the war machine? Is shooting randomized or can he be picked out. If picked out, can a shooter pick out merely the war machine and then there is no randomization on the character?

You call them side issues. I call them implications of whatever decision is finally made concerning just how a character joins a war machine unit.

If a character joins the CREW he gains certain benefits. If he merely joins the war machine there are other implications. Just trying to think ahead so the consequences of any decision are on the surface.

mageith
30-12-2005, 19:21
How do you work out LoS for War Machines? Do you take a crew member or the machine itself?

And, with a cannon, could you then shoot over intervening troops at a target behind, just because a crew member could see it?
So after all this discussion, did we come to a conclusion to this original question?

I say that for most war machines the spotter crewman would allow the machine to shoot. For example, a cannon and/or stone thrower behind a wall (but not touching it) or behind troops (the machine would not have LOS) would be able to shoot if a crewman stood on the other side of the wall or off to the side of the troops.

However a bolt thrower wouldn't be able to fire in this case because it shoots straight ahead until it hits something and in this case it would hit the wall or the troops.

Mage Ith

Gorog Irongut
30-12-2005, 21:43
I would agree. As long as there is suitable clearance for any supposed projectile from the cannon, stone thrower, etc. I would say it could shoot purely based on LoS of the crew. The BT is out though. Too straight shooting to get over the wall.

What do you think of the organ gun? Is that a straight shooting war machine?

mageith
30-12-2005, 22:21
What do you think of the organ gun? Is that a straight shooting war machine?
I'd say any war machine except the Bolt Thrower and/or one that has the same description of the bolt thrower, that is, moves in a straight line. Large targets being exceptions of course.

Cannons always cause me a laugh when they slightly overshoot. The ball couldn't have landed where it landed without going through the target, but the rules say otherwise. Se la guerre faux. (Probably not real French, but you get the idea.)