PDA

View Full Version : What the hell are these mythical "Truescale marines"?



Khornate Fireball (Ork)
14-03-2009, 18:22
I keep hearing about people making them or whatever. Can someone enlighten me to what aspects of scale are changed? Are they made bigger and taller? Smaller guns? More realistic proportions?

Thud
14-03-2009, 18:25
It's Marines converted into true scale (compared to Guardsmen). You should do a search for Synapse's thread in M, P&T on his true-scale pre-heresy World Eaters. They are stunning!

Grimtuff
14-03-2009, 18:34
Maybe so. Whilst they are the best examples* of this, they are far too big IMO.

All the attempts I have seen barring Synapse's look like a SM has spent far too much time on a torture rack.

JCOLL
14-03-2009, 18:38
There are some great examples of True Scaleing done well. Although they look awesome, I don't really believe in true scale for anything other than display purposes. It's basically bulking them out so that they are larger than Guardsmen and other xenos races and more true to form of how they would be in real life. I like my marines just as they are.

Mr.selfdestruct
14-03-2009, 18:47
I am also a huge fan of the awesome truescale marines being displayed on Warseer, but I have to say that the sheer inconvenience is what keeps me from ever wanting to do my own. Those on a limited budget or time schedule are fairly restricted on how intense a project they can take on. I see that as the biggest problem with truescaling. At times it seems to me that GW should have made them to proper scale to begin with, but that opens up a whole new can of worms in regards to proper scaling for Xenos, Terminators, and heaven forbid we have properly scaled vehicles.
My 2 cents.

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2009, 19:02
You can see a good collection in this thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163606&highlight=truescale+marine+thread).

As for being on a torture rack, tell me the "normal" scale Marine in this picture (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Eoin_Angel/deathwatch08.jpg)doesn't look dumpy to you...

Grimtuff
14-03-2009, 19:10
You can see a good collection in this thread here (http://warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163606&highlight=truescale+marine+thread).

As for being on a torture rack, tell me the "normal" scale Marine in this picture (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/Eoin_Angel/deathwatch08.jpg)doesn't look dumpy to you...

It's because the Guardsmen (They grow em big on Cadia!) is scaled too big (though it is a nice conversion, is it yours?) and the SM is not standing straight to begin with (all SM figs are somewhat bow legged).

It's the Guardsmen that are the problem, not the SM. I'll take a pic of a SM next to a Void (now Urban War) figure and you'll see how out of scale the Cadians are.

RCgothic
14-03-2009, 19:15
While they do look good, I don't believe 'Truescale' Marines are anything of the sort.

A guardsman is 1.25" tall, a space marine standing straight is 1.5" tall. These are perfectly in scale for average marine heights of 2.2m and 1.8m for white males.

The only problem is the bow-leggedness of the marine models.

Demonrich
14-03-2009, 19:34
My problem with marines isn't so much the height, it is the proportions. The legs and arms on a marine must be very thin to be able to fit inside the inches of power armour.

Looking at the Cadian models I do not think they would actually fit inside power armour as it would be too tight.

The thighs in particular are hideously undersized on marines.

The next problem is that terminators are much taller than marines in power armour. Not to mention that their heads are pushed so far forwards that they would have to snap their necks to get the helmet into that position. And of course their thighs look worse than power armoured marines.

Having said all that, I still love the models! :D

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2009, 20:06
It's because the Guardsmen (They grow em big on Cadia!) is scaled too big (though it is a nice conversion, is it yours?) and the SM is not standing straight to begin with (all SM figs are somewhat bow legged).
Both the Space Marine and the guardsman in the picture have approximately equal bow-leggedness.

Yes, that is mine. Not up to the standard of many others', but it's okay. One thing that makes mine stand out is that I didn't try and bulk out the Marine, so he's still roughly the same proportions with longer arms and legs.

Which is another matter. The existing marine models - barring a few - aren't terribly well proportioned. Their heads are too big, their legs are too short and this is what makes them look dumpy. Unlike Artemis, who is correctly proportioned.


It's the Guardsmen that are the problem, not the SM.
Well, it's chicken-and-egg time here. You've also got inquisitors, sisters and other humans to blame too. That said, the scale of the system is 28mm, surely that should apply to "human height"? So anything bigger should be over 28mm? Then again, Eldar should be markedly bigger than humans too.


While they do look good, I don't believe 'Truescale' Marines are anything of the sort.

A guardsman is 1.25" tall, a space marine standing straight is 1.5" tall. These are perfectly in scale for average marine heights of 2.2m and 1.8m for white males.

The only problem is the bow-leggedness of the marine models.
Absolute nonsense. Have you got a picture of a leg-straightened marine? You can take a Marine like the Emperor's Champion - he's standing up straight. I've taken marines and carefully converted them. It really doesn't make more than about a milimeter's difference. Look at the picture above again - the guardsman and the marine have their legs spread to roughly the same amount. Take artemis and compare him with a 54mm model then compare a Space Marine with a 28mm model. There is no doubt about the scale discrepancy.


The next problem is that terminators are much taller than marines in power armour.
They're actually shorter if you measure to the head. I've made an Inquisitor-scale Terminator based on Artemis' proportions and to the shoulder he is twice the height of a normal human!

TimLeeson
14-03-2009, 20:25
They're marines that arent in bent-knees poses ;)

Demonrich
14-03-2009, 20:28
Looking at the models in front of me, my terminators are a good bit taller than PA marines at head height.

I suppose it depends on which versions of the models :)

Lord Inquisitor
14-03-2009, 20:52
Looking at the models in front of me, my terminators are a good bit taller than PA marines at head height.

I suppose it depends on which versions of the models :)

Heh, well, I stand corrected. Perhaps you're right, when I did the comparison it was with older models. :o I didn't think the new ones were much bigger. Will have to have a look when I get home.

Sam skywalker
14-03-2009, 21:59
I really like the true scaling... But I would only use them when playing using the movie marine rules... Cos that would be awesome...

zoggin-eck
14-03-2009, 23:11
Not a fan of it. Everyone's idea of "true scale" is different, so you see different armies at completely different scales.

Poorly done, it look bloody awful. There are plenty examples of someone complaining how bad the original figures are, only to show off their marines that simply have really long bodies or legs.

I love *******' huge marines in artwork, but don't think it always works out on the table. There is an annoying belief that Games Workshop just accidentally made all their marines the wrong size, and that people are very clever "fixing" them. They did it on purpose, that's how they want the miniatures to look. But if you have the skill to do it well, go for it

Legionary
14-03-2009, 23:35
I don't like them. I think they look as though they're from a different scale game system. If they're done superbly I think they look fine (Lord Inquisitor's look fine) but to me they look as good as normal marines, so what's the point - to me, at least.

aad
14-03-2009, 23:37
eldar are long and enigmatic
orks are big and bulky
imperial guardsmen are humans and should be smaller
tau are about the same as humans(they are also way too big)
spacemarines have a good proportioned look and are with armour bulky like an ork is without.

the whole truescale marine thing is a fable to me.
even if you would make ''truescale marines'' then how about the vehicles??
that,s at least one big problem with bigger marines, they don,t have vehicles in their size anymore. and what is a spacemarine army without a tank ?? not complete indeed.

i would make guardsman smaller instead of making marines taller.

guardsmen half the height of a baneblade chassis, don,t make me laugh.:rolleyes:

Dangersaurus
15-03-2009, 00:06
IMO it has to do with toupees, red sports cars and riding lawn mowers.

I thought the subject might pop up on TVTropes (a wiki site dealing with common cliches and tropes in pop culture) under Bigger is Better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BiggerIsBetter), and was (un)surprised to see that 40k gets many many mentions. Here are six fun ones:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MemeticBadass
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeAndInCharge
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OneManArmy
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IHaveTwoKidneys
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MoreDakka
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Warhammer40000

IJW
15-03-2009, 00:27
Well, it's chicken-and-egg time here. You've also got inquisitors, sisters and other humans to blame too. That said, the scale of the system is 28mm, surely that should apply to "human height"? So anything bigger should be over 28mm? Then again, Eldar should be markedly bigger than humans too.
It's largely down to the plastic Catachans. :(

I heard that one of the GW figure designers once sat down with a pair of micrometer calipers and spent a week going through making measurements of the proportions and sizes of different Citadel figures going back twenty years, and found that the currently produced model range goes anywhere from 23mm scale to 38mm (the plastic Catachans).

These days I believe the designers have set guidelines for heights of the different ranges, to try and bring things into line.

Born Again
15-03-2009, 02:07
While they do look good, I don't believe 'Truescale' Marines are anything of the sort.

A guardsman is 1.25" tall, a space marine standing straight is 1.5" tall. These are perfectly in scale for average marine heights of 2.2m and 1.8m for white males.

The only problem is the bow-leggedness of the marine models.

Agreed. I don't really believe in this "true scale" business, and if it does apply then it's probably IG who should be scaled down. Largely, though, I don't think it applies because I regularly hear people claim the average SM to be anything from 7' to 9' tall. Back in the day, when I got into the game during 2nd edition, they were regularly stated in canon fluff to be 7' tall. AFAIK, this has never been officially stated otherwise, with the exception of Jes Goodwin's life size sketch which was, by his own admission, mislabeled (the scale starts at 1, not 0). Considering I'm 6'1", and know plenty of people a few inches taller than me, I don't regard SM to be that much taller: probably as tall as the average household doorway. They would be considerably wider and bulkier, though.

Bregalad
15-03-2009, 04:55
Never got it why some people find that Space marine look more realistic when they are 2.5 meter high and still have 10cm thick fingers and basketball sized hands wielding 2 ton swords with 30cm thick blades. :rolleyes:

JCOLL
15-03-2009, 05:40
Another problem I have with True Scale is that I haven't seen anyone change the size of the weapons. It's cool to see the 'normal' Marines carrying larger than life weapons because they ARE larger than life. But Truescale marines weapons are usually left the same as they come so lack in their bulk. Again, some people on this and other forums have done an astounding job re-imagining a space marine for a tabletop game, but I think huge marines are better left for book covers and video games.

doghouse
15-03-2009, 18:51
In all fairness GW have never claimed that their minis are supposed to be in scale with each other.
The main problem with the space marine miniatures (I'm not bashing them here being a die hard marine fan) is that porportionally they are incorrect.
The heads are too large and the limbs are far too thin.

What truescaling does is attempt to bring the models into back into proportion as you can see with this guy here.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s196/Mutt2050/Picture001.jpg

In scale with an imperial guardsman model this puts him at roughly just over seven and a half feet if he wasn't wearing armour.
The boltgun is this picture has also been scaled up to suit but the main problem is that on top of pretty much scratchbuilding atleast thirty minis for an army you have to build the bolters as well. Using standard plastic weapons is a short cut that works quite well.

Another method of scaling the marine models is to use the smaller cadian veteran heads as seen here, which is a lot less time consuming.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture015-5.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b141/Doghouse12/Picture013-9.jpg

Truescaling is more of a niche than a mainstream modelling choice but there are examples where it looks expecially impressive such as Chaos marines leading mortals for example.
Plus an army of massive marines can seriously intimidate your opponent.

W0lf
15-03-2009, 18:56
Doghouse that nigh-on scratchbuilt truescale marine (as seen in your d/p) never fails to impress.

Its some very sick stuff man, incredible. Oh and unless im mistaken arnt you one of the pioneers of truescaling?

doghouse
15-03-2009, 19:03
Yeah, I'm pretty much responsible for the truescale thing along with Elusive71 over on the B&C. I only wanted bigger marines to scare my opponents though, never thought it'd take off as it has. :D

Deamon-forge
15-03-2009, 20:38
Doghouse, i really like the Truescale marines with the cadian veteran heads think this looks way better than the big marines IMO. think i mite have to make a squad or do somthng they look ace!

Bob Hunk
15-03-2009, 23:25
Yeah, I'm pretty much responsible for the truescale thing along with Elusive71 over on the B&C. I only wanted bigger marines to scare my opponents though, never thought it'd take off as it has. :D

Doghouse certainly influenced me (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171633) to have a go at truescale, but let's not forget the work of Apologist (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146205)... ;)

AndrewGPaul
16-03-2009, 00:07
Considering I'm 6'1", and know plenty of people a few inches taller than me, I don't regard SM to be that much taller: probably as tall as the average household doorway. They would be considerably wider and bulkier, though.

Also, some guardsmen - the Tanith 1st, for example - are described as being rather tall - around the 2 metre mark. perhaps Space Marines actually aren't that mcuh bigger after all? :)

W0lf
16-03-2009, 00:18
as much as i love Apologists models they look a tad too big next to other models as they are a scale of their own.

Doghouse pattern with chaos warrior legs or his scratch built are better imo.

40kdhs
16-03-2009, 00:22
Does it mean that GKs will be taller and bigger than normal SM?

The Hoff
16-03-2009, 01:39
I tend to agree with the Jes Goodwin school of thought: If the current marines actually stood upright, they would be about the right size.

For example, the attached image shows one of the current models standing more or less upright, next to a mid-size guard model. To me this scale looks about right.

Its has been said previously, but I would emphasize that scale creep with other ranges is responsible for marines looking too small. All the Guard plastics are over scale, and massive if compared to the older metal ranges (Vostroyans are even worse for scale creep). Place a marine next to a Tallarn or Preatorean and suddenly he is taller than them, even in the squatting stance.

That said, some of the truescale projects around do a better job of capturing the sheer bulk of power armour, and they actually look like a marine could fit inside them (unlike the spindly legs on the stock minis).

If I were going for a truescale look, I would work with the current models, making the following changes:
-Upright stances
-Bulking out thigh armour
-Scaling down weapons (ie. thinner Chainswords, thinner and shorter Bolters)

Lord Malorne
16-03-2009, 01:44
I can only ever find it odd that people would spend time making *true scale* marines.

Lord Inquisitor
16-03-2009, 02:16
I tend to agree with the Jes Goodwin school of thought: If the current marines actually stood upright, they would be about the right size.
Rubbish. Marines stand eye-to-eye with guardsmen who are also in the bandy-legged pose. Plus there are plenty of upright-standing marines (Emperor's Champion, etc) who don't tower a head above guardsmen.

Jes Goodwin stated that the Space Marine model that he actually scaled correctly is Artemis (to 54mm scale - by extension regular Space Marines are not built to scale), and that's abundantly obvious from looking at the model. Even given his bent knees, Artemis is head and shoulders above any normal 54mm.

While you may well be right about the overscaling of guardsmen, they're used as the benchmark of what a human's height should be. Any which way you slice it, Space Marines are too short compared with guardsmen.

The Hoff
16-03-2009, 02:26
Rubbish. Marines stand eye-to-eye with guardsmen who are also in the bandy-legged pose. Plus there are plenty of upright-standing marines (Emperor's Champion, etc) who don't tower a head above guardsmen.


:D well I clearly cant match your passion on the topic, certainly I am a long way from 'rubbishing' anyones opinion.

I simply comes down to which Guard range you take to be the scale benchmark.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
16-03-2009, 02:47
I really like the true scaling... But I would only use them when playing using the movie marine rules... Cos that would be awesome...

Not to be even more ignorant... But where would I find these Movie Marine rules?

Lord Inquisitor
16-03-2009, 02:58
:D well I clearly cant match your passion on the topic, certainly I am a long way from 'rubbishing' anyones opinion.

I simply comes down to which Guard range you take to be the scale benchmark.

Heh, apologies for coming across too strong there! No offence intended, "rubbish" intended purely as a statement of strong disagreement. I also missed your picture there when replying. I assume that guy is a conversion? But again, I'd direct you to the photo I linked to earlier in the thread - that kasrkin you showed in your photograph has approximately equal "bendy legs" as the plastic SM and is pretty much exactly the same size as the regular plastic SM.

As for which is the benchmark, most people assume that the unaugmented humans are the baseline given that the Space Marine is intended to be superhuman. From a more practical standpoint, it is rather a lot easier to make the Space Marines bigger than it is to make the Guardsmen smaller! ;)

Born Again
16-03-2009, 03:00
Also, some guardsmen - the Tanith 1st, for example - are described as being rather tall - around the 2 metre mark. perhaps Space Marines actually aren't that mcuh bigger after all? :)

Yes, that's another point. Humans from all over the galaxy would be all different sizes, so taking an "average" height for a human would be debatable anyway.

Not to get into arguments of whether marines are too small or guardsmen too big, but imo the pic The Hoff posted is what they should look like next to each other in my mind.

RichBlake
16-03-2009, 05:56
To be honest I'm not too fussed about this stuff. If other people are then good for them, my Guardsmen could always use a bigger target to shoot at :p

In all seriousness though if you want to see the size difference properly compare the Major Jackson and Battle Brother Artemis models from the Inquisitor range. BIG difference.

spaint2k
16-03-2009, 06:38
Jes Goodwin stated that the Space Marine model that he actually scaled correctly is Artemis (to 54mm scale - by extension regular Space Marines are not built to scale), and that's abundantly obvious from looking at the model. Even given his bent knees, Artemis is head and shoulders above any normal 54mm.

The thighs on Artemis are miniscule. His proportions look worse in some ways than the smaller figures.

Steve

DarthFugly
16-03-2009, 10:00
At the end of the day, if people want to undertake such large scale (ha ha a pun!) modeling and conversion projects, it is usually because they get a lot of enjoyment out of it. Would you knock someone's painting because it is not Golden Daemon standard? If we were being paid to do this for a living, then I could see some reason to criticise if models weren't up to standard GW spec.

I think you are taking the term "Truescale" too literally. I think it is more about trying to create marines seen in all the GW pictures and Black Library books, all of which are far larger than 7'6" or whatever.

As an alternative to chopping up marines, has anyone tried to convert Lord of the Rings models to be guardsmen? They are 25mm scale...

Apologist
16-03-2009, 12:16
I'd echo the idea that it's generally not an obsessive need for 'correctly scaled marines' as it is to make bad-ass toy soldiers.

Certainly for me, I'm far more interested in getting my marines to look like this artwork:
http://image.hotdog.hu/_data/members3/067/978067/images/ultramarines.jpg
... than to satisfy an urge to have boltgun shells the right size (or whatever).

Actually, looking at that again, that's a cool banner. Might have a go at that! :)

Bob Hunk
16-03-2009, 13:46
I'd echo the idea that it's generally not an obsessive need for 'correctly scaled marines' as it is to make bad-ass toy soldiers.

Amen to that! Rule of cool >>> Every other consideration. ;)

sydbridges
16-03-2009, 17:08
As an alternative to chopping up marines, has anyone tried to convert Lord of the Rings models to be guardsmen? They are 25mm scale...

If you did that, I'm sure you'd run into some players who would have an aneurism when they noted your figures were a bit smaller.

Khornate Fireball (Ork)
16-03-2009, 17:45
Oh noes! You're 2mm shorter! UNFAIR GAME ADVANTAGE!

In all seriousness, I do think making Guardsmen smaller is the more "realistic" way to go. Especially making Guardsmen better-proportioned. Lose the 10cm thick fingers, for one. But making marines bigger instead is just more satisfying, for the badass factor. It's not like I'd make my Nobz and Boyz smaller to make my Warboss more imposing... I'd make 'im bigger!