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Los
15-03-2009, 12:03
Does anyone else feel like an ass when they point out rules violations even when they are winning in a game? For example Assault marines jumping over an intervening unit during the assault phase to assault another unit. Do you call it so that next time you play the dude it doesn't happen. What if you are in a tourney and it could yield you some extra points? Is the game really more fun if you just let it go as many suggest? I feel guilty for bringing up a rules violation and I feel like I just got bent over if I let it go.

I make mistakes and forget things sometimes like assaults hitting vehicles on rear armour or other mistakes but it seems like many people don't even bother to read the rules. Adult players who have been playing for months or years making multiple errors like the assault move above get annoying. If someone says hey I don't really have a good handle on the rules so I might make some mistakes that is cool. But those who represent themselves as knowing how to play the game make me suspicious when they make all these errors. And it sucks bringing this to the attention of people you do not know at events. ..."umm I am pretty sure you cannot reroll armor penetration rolls with lightning claws"..."Does your unit have a special rule that says it can come in from reserves without rolling for it?" etc.. Then when you have had to do this so much you skip every third mistake because you don't want this complete stranger to think you are di*k and rules lawyering them. Can I say di*k on here? Guess I should read the rules.

Okay I am completley neurotic about a science fiction game many people would consider me to old to be playing so I will shut up now.

Wraithseer
15-03-2009, 12:34
kinda depends on the game, I do get a little spiky about massive rules infractions...IE no your grenade launcher does not fire 36 inches, yes lash lets me move the miniature in to dangerous terrain,...ect. I normally let simple infraction go and tell them after they are done, pistols only get one shot now, your models only get a cover save from that direction,ect. mainly because the flow of the game is pivotal and constant nitpicking among friends is kinda dumb. Also I forget things, Having played since rogue trader I forget what swooping hawks do in this edition or what ever.:p

IAMNOTHERE
15-03-2009, 12:41
I'm consistent and always make the call. If it's a tourny then they should know better, if it's a friendly then you can call it a learning experience.

Most things like this tend to get resolved amicably, especially if it's easy to reference.

But you should always do it in a nice way.

The_Outsider
15-03-2009, 13:14
If you don't play by the rules, go play D&D - at least that way you can plausibly make stuff up.

sliganian
15-03-2009, 13:31
Call them on it.
Sure the player might get grumpy but if they are *truly* interested in playing the game and playing well, they will get over it -- and realize that you did them a good deed. If they are a fly-by-night gamer, then it isn't a big loss if they don't come back.

505
15-03-2009, 13:41
do I feal like a jerk ussually no...if he has been trying to rules lawyering (your guards uniform isnt camo so you cant take chameline) or trying to cheat. (he can see me and shoot me but I cant see him kind of thing) then I fell good about doing it

if the person is new I will correct them without being a jerk they need to learn and it helps them learn

but if I corrected them 3 times on the same rule in the smae game then I can become a jerk

Count de Monet
15-03-2009, 13:57
Just point out the mistakes that will benefit them as well.

"Ooo, bad roll. Don't your scouts get move through cover? Maybe that extra die will be better."

"Some of those guys are probably in rapidfire range, don't forget those extra shots!"

"Did you include the bonus for AP1 on that shot? Wouldn't it be stunned instead of shaken?"

Born Again
15-03-2009, 14:07
I play by the rules: as I remember them. Sometimes you just forget things, plain and simple, and that's fair. But if I see someone making a mistake, I tell them. I expect people to do the same to me. Fair's fair.

I agree with Outsider's comment too: if you want to make stuff up or not abide by the rules, go play a roleplaying game.

BaronDG
15-03-2009, 14:16
We have played this game for quite some time now and we still make mistakes and forget rules, so it is a constant learning experience. It was so much easier to remember rules when I was young...

the1stpip
15-03-2009, 14:18
kinda depends on the game, I do get a little spiky about massive rules infractions...IE no your grenade launcher does not fire 36 inches, yes lash lets me move the miniature in to dangerous terrain,...ect. I normally let simple infraction go and tell them after they are done, pistols only get one shot now, your models only get a cover save from that direction,ect. mainly because the flow of the game is pivotal and constant nitpicking among friends is kinda dumb. Also I forget things, Having played since rogue trader I forget what swooping hawks do in this edition or what ever.:p

I'm glad I am not on my own about forgtting which version of the rules I am using.

DeadlistIdiot
15-03-2009, 14:23
I usually point things out when I see them...I play with a bunch of people who've been playing for a few additions and so find that they either forget or don't realize some of the new 5th ed rules changes, so it helps to bring everyone up to date on the new rules. I also have a couple pages of rules reference sheets I have made up with rules I use often, a quick overview of them, and the page number in the rulebook or codex which speeds things up when we look up a rule.

As for letting the opponent off the hook, I find that I don't need to do hold back pointing a rules violation out. Instead I tend to give my opponent some slack when judging whether a unit is in range or has line of sight or if a unit is trying to shoot something that is obviously out of range (usually due to some special rule) and let him choose a different target. Part of this is because, since I'm new to the game (and a poor college student, heh) I'm proxying my army with base-sized index card cutouts (hopefully this'll change soon), so I feel their letting me a bit of wiggle room so I'll do the same for them. (although one of my friends can sometimes tend to be a rules nazi when it come to rules that'll benefit him and I'll start being a little bit more strick when dealing with him)

Brother Loki
15-03-2009, 14:25
I do that as well. In some ways it's harder for long time players. I still do stuff based on the way it used to work in 4th or 3rd, or occasionally even 2nd. Part of the problem is that the different editions, at least 3rd, 4th and 5th are so close to each other, but have just enough differences to trip you up.

Giganthrax
15-03-2009, 14:56
When someone makes a rule mistake, I point it out. I always have a rulebook, codex and reference at hand just for this purpose.

No reason to feel like a d!ck over it. The other guy should feel like a d!ck for not knowing the rules. I'm actually doing him a favor.

susu.exp
15-03-2009, 14:59
I play by the rules: as I remember them.

Can we have that as an acronym? "Rules as remembered"? Like "Heīs a total RAR player" :D

RAR > RAW as long as you canīt be bothered to look it up...

Legionary
15-03-2009, 15:16
No reason to feel like a d!ck over it. The other guy should feel like a d!ck for not knowing the rules.
Your first sentence was right. Nobody should feel like a d*ck just because they forgot a rule. It's a big game, with a lot of rules some of which are described only in a codex you might not own.

If you see somebody making a mistake that breaks the rules, let them know politely, be friendly about it and move on. The most important rule about playing Warhammer is to assume good faith - ie., don't think they're breaking a rule deliberately.

fluffstalker
15-03-2009, 15:30
"If you don't play by the rules, go play D&D - at least that way you can plausibly make stuff up." - The Outsider

Well put. It doesnt matter if your winning or losing, play consistently and by the book to the best of your ability.

Giganthrax
15-03-2009, 15:34
Legionary, sorry, I forgot to mention I was talking about long-time players. Newer players indeed shouldn't feel bad for not knowing the rules. After all, they're still new to the game, and it takes a while to memorize all the rules.

On the other hand, whenever I run into a guy who has been playing for years, yet doesn't know the basic rules for their own army, then hell yes that makes me think he's - at the very least - making a fool of himself. Worst of all is when such a person gets all annoyed and self-righteous when I correct them on the rules.

Necronlord3
15-03-2009, 16:14
The reason why GW games have such a terrible reputation is because it is nearly impossible to get through a game without some sort of rules mistake/dispute/argument/etc... and it sucks the fun right out of the game.

Shadowphrakt
15-03-2009, 16:22
The reason why GW games have such a terrible reputation is because it is nearly impossible to get through a game without some sort of rules mistake/dispute/argument/etc... and it sucks the fun right out of the game.

I'd...kinda say thats an exaggeration. We can get through loads of games without any rules disputes.

EVIL INC
15-03-2009, 16:32
To me, cheating is cheating regardless of the environment. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Just a matter of how you want to approach it and whether it was intentional or not.

samiens
15-03-2009, 16:34
I'm a tournament player and am of the opinion that in generalthe rules are there to be enforced- with the odd exception thats so tiny or so daft AND has no real gameplay effect that I'll let it go in casual games. Also, I find when playing with friends and my girlfriend there are few to no disputes- yet suspiciously against people I don't know there are lots- I'm afraid to say that some people are just trying to pull one over on you.

I played a pick up game last Thursday with a pretty decent sysytem. basically, we enforced the rules strictly but if no one makes a challenge or doesn't enforce a rule thats beneficial to you then its too late. (I'm the more knowledgable player out of the 2 of us but I let him rally a unit under half strength- my bad!) I've often found if mistakes are punished people learn the rules suprisingly quickly!

kane40k
15-03-2009, 17:57
okay i have a question... how do you 'remind' some one of the rules with out comming across like a dick?

massey
15-03-2009, 17:58
Go ahead and tell him that he's making a mistake. Don't feel bad about it. Of course, also don't feel too bad when you look it up to show him and find out that he's right. :)

40kdhs
15-03-2009, 18:01
If somebody know the rules better than you, you need to listen.

Cocaloch
15-03-2009, 18:25
If somebody know the rules better than you, you need to listen.

Due to the way the human mind works, some people pick up on somethings better than others regardless of intelligence or practice. Sometimes, somone might know the rules better than you, however this one rule you know is true that they just don't. When you find one like this its better to bring it up and settle the dispute right now then have it come up in a game. For instance no one in my gamming group ever remebers the rules for barricades correctly regardless of the fact that some have been playing longer than me, and that I just got into this edition. So its never good to just assume (which is rarely a smart move anyway) that since they have a better grasp on the rules that you are wrong.

Giganthrax
15-03-2009, 19:17
okay i have a question... how do you 'remind' some one of the rules with out comming across like a dick?
By simply telling them.

When someone rapid fires with their tacticals in the shooting phase, and then wants to assault with the same squad in the assault phase, I simply say: "Tacticals can't assault after firing rapid fire weapons." If he disagrees, I open the rulebook and show him the rule. If he somehow still disagrees, I call the judge.

Honestly, I don't see how you can possibly come across as a dick if all you want to do is ensure the game is being played by the official rules. That's what the rules are for, after all.

Marshal Sinclair
15-03-2009, 21:18
Because I don't play very often the rules I remember whilst playing a game are often a strange mixture of 3rd, 4th and 5th, and occassionally even 2nd! When people point out that I have done something wrong I don't mind at all (infact, I appreciate it), so long as they aren't an ass about it.

Los
15-03-2009, 21:31
Can we have that as an acronym? "Rules as remembered"? Like "Heīs a total RAR player" :D

RAR > RAW as long as you canīt be bothered to look it up...

I like that one.

For friendly gamers I have no problem bringing up the rules and I let them know even if doesn't benefit me but for hostile gamers it is just a chore.

Pacific
15-03-2009, 21:45
I'll second (5th?!) the sentiment about getting mixed up with the rules, sometimes accidentlally pulling stuff up from previous editions.

Its ridiculous, I have no trouble at all with games which have more to remember, like FoW, Warseer (or even Necromunda!) yet bits from 5th are still skipping my mind. If such is the case though, I'd far prefer it if my opponent points out my mistake than let me slide and for me to carry the mistake into the next game.

Corrode
15-03-2009, 23:02
okay i have a question... how do you 'remind' some one of the rules with out comming across like a dick?

'Are you sure? I thought it was X.'

You jog their memory, offer your version, and phrase it all as though it's something that's slipped their mind rather than accusing them of cheating. In the case of honest mistakes it's enough to give someone pause and remember/check the rule. If someone's cheating, it gives them a way to bow out gracefully - which means they don't get flustered and nasty about it ;)

40kdhs
16-03-2009, 00:30
I watched a league game and one of the players MISINTERPRETED the rule. I told him about it and he told me that it was a league game even though I was right.

My thought was what the 'league game' had to do with the way he wrongly MISINTERPRETED the rule?

Are you not going to listen if i point out the rule in the rulebook and FAQ?

Oh well!

Pacific
16-03-2009, 01:40
'Are you sure? I thought it was X.'

You jog their memory, offer your version, and phrase it all as though it's something that's slipped their mind rather than accusing them of cheating. In the case of honest mistakes it's enough to give someone pause and remember/check the rule. If someone's cheating, it gives them a way to bow out gracefully - which means they don't get flustered and nasty about it ;)

Exactly. I think just say it in exactly the same way you would with any other real life situation if you disagree with someone about something.

Trench_Raider
16-03-2009, 02:23
People make mistakes. Unless you have a photographic memory, it's going to happen from time to time.
Hell, I'm probably worse than most players at incorrectly recalling a rule on occasion as I have five editions of this damned game (three of which I still play) bouncing around inside my head. Thus I have no problem when someone corrects me politely. Note I said "politely"...that's key. If you jog someone's memory in a polite manner most are not going to resent it.

That being said, one of the things you don't do is correct someone from the sidelines....especially in a competative game. Call it a pet peave of mine, but I hate it when someone uninvolved in a game starts spouting off rules corrections. It makes you look like a tool and compounds the negative impact if you come across less than polite or (god forbid) you turn out to be wrong. Here is a classic example. A few weeks ago I was in a game playing my Nurgle Chaos Renegades and went to roll for "Warp time" on my Daemon prince at the begining of the turn. Another player who was standing close by (who admittedly has a reputation as a "know it all" and is lacking in social skills) butted in and said "Just so you know, you roll for warp time in the shooting phase". He was rude and interupting play in a game he was not involved with, no one asked him, and he was wrong to boot! :rolleyes:
Don't be that guy....

TR

Koryphaus
16-03-2009, 02:32
The reason why GW games have such a terrible reputation is because it is nearly impossible to get through a game without some sort of rules mistake/dispute/argument/etc... and it sucks the fun right out of the game.

Have you ever seen a game of Softball/Baseball? People make rules mistakes all the time (even players who play for their countries normally aren't all that crash hot on the rules :rolleyes:), but it doesn't suck the fun out of the game.

Any game with any form of rules is going to have rules disputes at some point.

Deadmanwade
16-03-2009, 02:45
In my area we have two Outriders. Both of them make rules mistakes. The best one being allowing daemons to deepstrike next to icons which had just arrived that turn. When I mentioned this to him (I was playing at the next table when I over-heard this), he said "I never really read the wargear sections of the book." He did then take back his unit and deep-struck it properly. He still won the game and he apologised to his opponent afterwards.

Born Again
16-03-2009, 02:50
Can we have that as an acronym? "Rules as remembered"? Like "Heīs a total RAR player" :D

RAR > RAW as long as you canīt be bothered to look it up...

Go right ahead. :D

So what's the official order now then? RAI>RAR>RAW?

Frep
16-03-2009, 03:10
I'm not normally a nitpicker as I forget rules a fair bit, WS chart I really need to memorize it I always am needlessly penalizing myself on it. But there are some things that really bug me, I just played in a megabattle recently and one guys was decimating a unit terminators, my crusader and a nearby baneblade with a single seven inch template from his scorpion.
I asked him "wow, the scorpian has 2 shots strength D 7" blast?''
He says "Yes it does."
I say "Wow that's a pretty mean unit", and while i'm waiting for him to finished rolling. I pick up apoc reload and decide to check the stats on a scorpion, I wanted to know the AV, and low and behold the templates are only 5 inches so I asked him to redo his shooting there, he then proceeds to fire again putting the template no where near the dice actually points and tries to still kill the baneblade, crusader and three terminators. In the end the only think that happened was a gun crew shaken and the crusader lost a hurricane bolter. Even though he had been rule lawyering for the entire game he claimed he forgot the size of his scorpians templates while knowing everyone elses
I wouldn't normally have been so bitter but he had just called other people on niggling rules and claimed that his units couldn't be hit because of LOS while drawing fire from a pred through a solid wall. Over the coarse of the game his vehicles also managed an average of about 1-2 inches extra movement per turn and he got me to move some terminators for him that were 13 inches away from a baneblade, but when it came to assault time suddenly they were within 5.75" instead of the 7" they actually should have been. The guy is well known for his rather sketchy behaviour sometimes, but my opinion is lady luck doesn't like cheaters, he never made a good roll after that silliness with the tempates and his unusual interperatation of the skatter rolls.

Eryx_UK
16-03-2009, 13:17
I would always raise it if I spotted it. Not to be an **** but we should both be playing by the same book. I'd expect my opponent to point out any mistakes I made when playing.

The_Outsider
16-03-2009, 13:18
Can we have that as an acronym? "Rules as remembered"? Like "Heīs a total RAR player" :D

RAR > RAW as long as you canīt be bothered to look it up...

In a game I was oberving recently, an eldar play "remembered" that all phoenix lords have a 4+ invulnerable save as well as their wraithlord being T10.

Korras
16-03-2009, 13:54
I point out mistakes as I see them, and it doesn't matter in whoms favour they end up being. I'll also point out units that he forgot about. I simply treat others as I like to be treated myself.

if my opponent turns out to be an ass, however, I'll stop with pointing out things he forgot about, and will stick to rules not being done as they should be.

samiens
16-03-2009, 13:55
The best way is to be really nice all game and start with 'I'm sorry' followed by the rule. If you pick it up early then taht's the best way to go. I had a fine game last time out by saying at the start that we should be strict on rules and if we make a mistake that benefits the other player its too late to rectify it (no late casting of fortune etc) He made a couple of errors and I allowed him to rally a huge unit of orks that was under half strength but the game played just fine. Always try and have the rule at your fingertips- people like to see the rule in the book- it ends discussions faster!

Necronlord3
06-05-2009, 15:53
I'd...kinda say thats an exaggeration. We can get through loads of games without any rules disputes.

I also get through tons of games without disputes. Which is why I stated "mistake/dispute/argument/etc..." It has been my experience to that once a game has been completed, we often find something that wasn't done exactly right, or a rule that requires clarification for the next game. Other games I've played do have similar issues but not issues that would generally be game changing. Unlike GW's games.

sliganian
06-05-2009, 16:34
That being said, one of the things you don't do is correct someone from the sidelines....especially in a competative game.

1000 Times This! ^^^

If you want to watch, fine.

If you want to laugh when the players laugh, cry when they cry, fine.

But, if YOU are not playing IN the game, STFU about anything Rules related.

The game is a social contract between the two players and they have to sort it out on their terms. External parties need not apply.

I have occasionally had Table Lurkers, and it is really, really, really annoying.

StefDa
06-05-2009, 22:17
To use the OP's example with the Asault Marines, if I were winning and noticed this mistake, I'd point it out after the Assault Phase, so that it didn't seem like I was trying to impair my opponnent

nightgant98c
06-05-2009, 23:02
I never feel bad about it. I do sometimes say something like "I don't think you can do that, why don't we check" , or something like that. Then if I'm wrong(which has happened), I don't look like an idiot.