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ashc
15-03-2009, 22:07
Hi Guys,

Having some free time again and being made a good offer on some Dark Elf miniatures, I am looking at getting back in to fantasy. I already know they are considered one of the stronger books out now, but I was wondering at the lack of general posts about the dark elves on the forums. Is it just that people do not have much to say on the dark elves, or is it just that everyone goes over to druchii.net to talk about them? i have tried to look about on that site but have not found it especially user friendly, and usually prefer reading tactica etc. from this site instead.

So come one come all, sing your praises (and your pet hates!) of the pansy elves darker brethren!

Ash

TheDean04
15-03-2009, 22:12
Well they are considered the third most powerful army to date (some even say second most power but I dont buy that). They are well rounded, nothing bad to say about them. They are most likely to be my next army after Im done painting my VCs for Balitmore games day.

dannyfave
15-03-2009, 22:58
I love Dark elves and have been playing them since 5th edition. So no lack of love from me.

I would sugest not going to D.net though as not just the site, but the people are not user friendly (I mean , yeah sometimes I will get in a bad mood and flame people, but that is when someone talks **** on Kislev, but you don't need to do it every time someone makes a post)

Also over there you will just get a face full of whinning about the new army book when there is really nothing to whine about.

ashc
15-03-2009, 23:09
Yeah that was kind of my general feel, it just wasn't as warm and friendly as staying here with friends :)

So is it just me who can't find a dark elf tactica?

Ash

CaliforniaGamer
15-03-2009, 23:13
they are popular, have a hardcore following and honestly am glad DEs exist to stop a total dominance by DOCs in tournament play.

I would also recommend checking out Druchii net although most of the tactica there is old and out of date.

Emissary
15-03-2009, 23:23
I think you'll find there is a lot of fanatical love for the DE around here. It pretty much makes it so that if you don't agree with the "DE are 100% fine and there isn't any problem with them AT ALL" line of thinking you'll get attacked...

Voodoo Boyz
15-03-2009, 23:32
Dark Elves are like a plate of pure win with a side of awesome sauce.

Chaplain Nikolai
15-03-2009, 23:40
I love my Dark Elves. When you take in everything about them (fluff, models, rules) I think that they're the best army out there and they're a joy to paint to boot.

JCOLL
16-03-2009, 01:04
I love my Dark Elves! I hadn't given them much love till the new book came out, at which time I went all out for them. I haven't played them officially with the new army book yet, but have been spending many hours making them look good (as good as I can anyway). I'm currently working on 100 skeletons for my V.C. army but after that is done I plan on giving my DE some much needed attention. I'm thinking about starting a log too because there aren't too many of them going right now. So watch for it!

Gazak Blacktoof
16-03-2009, 01:20
Good list with a few lame ducks and a couple of OTT nasties.

Its easy to build a list to suit almost any play style and any gaming environment.

I'd have done a few things differently if I'd be writting the book but its great as it is.

Feefait
16-03-2009, 01:31
Having faced them a few times recently I can say I have no real love for them. :) honestly i think the lack of posts is mainly that it is hard to really bitch about as being either "broken" or underpowered. they are just really cool. check the batrep page, there are lots of users there and some good reports.

Draconian77
16-03-2009, 01:47
Good list with a few lame ducks and a couple of OTT nasties.

Its easy to build a list to suit almost any play style and any gaming environment.

I'd have done a few things differently if I'd be writting the book but its great as it is.


Once again, what this guy says is what I think.

A note on Druchii.net, lots of posts by "newer" players has made me shy away from that site for now. If they leave I'll go back. I'm sure a few others feel the same way I do. (Crosses fingers)

fubukii
16-03-2009, 01:53
good solid book, able to be OTT or decently balanced. Models are awesome as well and lots of cool plastics.

i give them my seal of approval

Kerill
16-03-2009, 03:47
They have:
Great background
Great models
A list full of really really good units
A range of possible playstyles

BUT they also have the ring of hotek, pendant of Khaleth, ASF deathstar, shade deathstar, dragons with hatred, S7 rending stars and 175 point hydras which puts them into the realm of cheese along with daemons, particularly the ring. THere have been quite a few debates about these things but thats my opinion. I like reading battle reports but if there are DE I just look at the army list, if I see the pendant and the ring in a black guard deathstar I won't bother reading the battle rep.

Without these things, or with just a few then DE are a very strong but not overpowered list which should be fun to play with for a long time. If players use the synergy of the army (rather than the synergy of broken items) they should be fun to play with and against. If the ring of hotek is not there, there is only one terror causer and the pendant is on a sorceress or not in the deathstar then anything else is fair enough. I think (and don't play DE btw) that by not taking the broken things to every game you will get more joy out of the list in the long term.

The only reason I don't collect DE's is because they are one of my brothers' armies. I'd certainly suggest you collect them, just hope you don't take all the no-brainers to make the no brainer list and actually consider what power level of list your opponents expect to face if they are Mr Cheese, then bring all that's broken, otherwise use a little moderation.

BTW: I'm not trying to start up the whole "Are dark elves cheesey" debates on this thread, there have been more than a few already.

Darkspear
16-03-2009, 06:51
Once again, what this guy says is what I think.

A note on Druchii.net, lots of posts by "newer" players has made me shy away from that site for now. If they leave I'll go back. I'm sure a few others feel the same way I do. (Crosses fingers)

That is the reason why I shy away from Druchii.net myself. Nowadays the so-called "tactics" by this noobs were simply taking a dragon, taking 2 hydras or other stuff relating to army build. Nothing on REAL tactics, such as how to position your manticores, how to win a flank etc.

The problem with D.net is made worse due to a fierce online quarrel years ago (heard about it but I do not know the details) that led to several veterens leaving the site for good.

As for why I tend not to talk abt Druchii here...its because no one seems to like Dark elves in warseer. I have been reading posts on people slamming Druchii as a cheesy and point and click army. Druchii more cheesy than Daemons and Vampire counts? *rolls eyes*.

@Kerill: Generally Deathstar units can be solved if you insist on playing with only painted models and no proxies allowed. Although I understand that is a big commitment for many.

Hrogoff the Destructor
16-03-2009, 06:56
Apart from a few obvious problems, it's a pretty darn good book in my opinion.

Chainaxe07
16-03-2009, 09:15
Well, i like the models, and even have a small (less than 2k points) force of 'em.

Things i do no like: your characters are pushovers. It does not matter how many wondrous items you can pile on your general, he is still a puny elf that will get thrashed by every dwarf lord, blak orc, tomb king, greater demon, chaos lord and lizardmen lord that passes by. You could, however, exploit the "unfair dreadlord" thing and play it as a psycholocical advantage over your opponent. Alas this will soon cease, as he will realize how crap your character really is, and how little he can do to hurt things.
Your sorceresses are all female. How about 50/50? Seems like Malekith deos not want male competitors, has something to do with a prophecy.
Do not expect your heroes to last long (incl. battle standard bearer).Witch elves. They are able to dih out ome damge to soft, light armoured targets, but suffer from frenzy and are really easy to obliterte with just a couple rounds of light fire from small skirmishing units.
Harpies, too soft, dont bite hard enough and horrible models on top of that!

Things i do like: bolt throwers! You get 2 for a single rare slot.
Dark riders, decent light cavalry that wont win any combat by itself, but can really help your other guys (and girls!).
Cold one chariots: stupid, but solid and decent all round complement to your charge.
Cold ones: cool models (in every edition i remember!), decent efficency on the battlefield, decent cost/effectiveness ratio.
Cool basic troops represented by decent models.
Decent elite infantry, especially black guard. Again cool models.

That's a personal vie, you should really just go for the army that best suits you AND you would like to collect.
My main army is WoC now, and i love them!

fubukii
16-03-2009, 09:53
i disagree with the fact that dreadlords are puny elves. A dread lord with a good armor reverse ward save will beat most characters in fights, due to being unwoundable. Throw regen on top of both of those and its even more true and that still allows you points to have a potion of str giving you str 9 4 atks with hatred, enough to cripple/kill most characters. Another good combo is executioners axe/blood armor, in a unit with asf banner, granted this will only work on chars that dont have asf but its a fun combo that isnt as Copy and paste.

lakissov
16-03-2009, 10:58
a note about D.net:
It doesn't have the type of "tactica" articles that you find here, and this is one of the things that I like about that site. The point is that D.net takes a much more serious and advanced approach to tactics than the one found here. It doesn't go the way of: make a list in this this and that way and send this and this unit against this and that. In all honesty, such approach is too plain and simplistic, and it is too often found here (and that is the main reason why D.net and not warseer is the main site I browse for warhammer-related goodies).

Additionally, D.net has a much more polite community. People don't try to be aggressive to each other there, like on warseer and most other forums I have seen...

Commodus Leitdorf
16-03-2009, 11:18
Dark Elves are a fun book. Some of the toughest games I've played hgave been against them. Yes the can be abused and so on but when not played like that and pure balance is achieved they are quite simply awesomely fun to play against.

The SkaerKrow
16-03-2009, 12:47
They're a solid army that successfully incorporates a risk vs. reward element throughout their design, perhaps a first in the history of Warhammer. Dark Elves have always been one of the most despised opponents in the game, and the fact that the new book is able to put together a few abusive builds hasn't changed that.

Emissary
16-03-2009, 12:58
Things i do no like: your characters are pushovers. It does not matter how many wondrous items you can pile on your general, he is still a puny elf that will get thrashed by every dwarf lord, blak orc, tomb king, greater demon, chaos lord and lizardmen lord that passes by. You could, however, exploit the "unfair dreadlord" thing and play it as a psycholocical advantage over your opponent. Alas this will soon cease, as he will realize how crap your character really is, and how little he can do to hurt things.

This is one of the biggest fallacies you'll see repeated over and over as some sort of queer justificiation for the pendant. How hard is it to stick a lance, great weapon or Crimson Death on him? I didn't realize that a guy with a WS 7, S6, A4 and hatred sucked so much in combat...

Kerill
16-03-2009, 15:16
This is one of the biggest fallacies you'll see repeated over and over as some sort of queer justificiation for the pendant. How hard is it to stick a lance, great weapon or Crimson Death on him? I didn't realize that a guy with a WS 7, S6, A4 and hatred sucked so much in combat...


Its the repetition of these things that causes any DE dislike on these forums, not the book or the fluff or the models. DE are an intrinsically cool race and army.

Malice&Mizery
16-03-2009, 15:23
Mmm, they were my first army. I'll always have a soft spot for the Druchii.

AlphaLegionMarine
16-03-2009, 17:03
I am a Dark Elf player, and I love them. I do frequent Druchii.net and only hop over here for rumors. Some of our things are powerful, but our codex gave us very flavorful options.

I don't agree with the posters who think our Witch Elves need help. They do not wear armor, they use daggers which are terrible for armor piercing anyway, and they are frenzied. They are agile and can receive a 5+ Save from the Cauldron of Blood. We are Elves for crying out loud, we use light armor and our abilities lie in striking skillfully and quickly. Does everyone want them to be space marines? Harpies also make great screening units, that is their purpose, not to be elite in combat.

As for everyone complaing about the Pendant of Khaeleth. it's not as over the top as you might think. I watched a Chaos Sorceror on a Disc (lvl 4) use Blood Curdling Roar and land 3 wounds on my lvl 4 Sorceress in one go. I rolled my Save and did not get a single 1, so she was dead. I now think the Heart of Darkness is a better buy.

As for female Sorceresses, what is wrong with women using magic? Sounds like we have some chauvinists here? The Bretts have women casters as well.

Druchii.net is very polite and the admins are great as well.

Draconian77
16-03-2009, 17:07
Druchii.net is very polite and the admins are great as well.

Ok, before this blows out of proportion and because I did bring it up...

I have always liked Druchii.net and I still do, just not as much as I did in the past because we are no longer an "exclusive club", if you will.
*Lots* of DE players these days, new DE players.
Asking questions and posting about tactics that we experienced players have answered/seen already.
Personally I just don't find the site as interesting as it was.
No offence intended to anyone on Druchii.net.

Right, think I covered all the bases.

W0lf
16-03-2009, 17:40
They have:
Great background
Great models
A list full of really really good units
A range of possible playstyles

thats the crux of it.

I really like DE personally, its a nice book because you can take w/e you want and still be pretty competitive.

ashc
16-03-2009, 18:21
Thanks for the responses. I have played DEs before back with the old book so I'm not a complete newbie to them, and its quite exciting that many people view a lot of the different units and things in the list as usable and competitive.

Is there anything in the list people are not so happy with? (i'm not talking the stuff that people consider cheesy, more the stuff that they think is redundant).

Ash

W0lf
16-03-2009, 18:27
Redundant thngs;

- Executioners. Cold one knights or Black guard are better.
- Corsairs should be more like 8 pts per model not 10.
- Witch elves are good at killing low T, Low save troops.. aka stuff far cheaper then them and a dying breed in 7th.
- Death hag, suffer from WE + Exs not being takn. Plus being frenzied when EXs are not.

Thats about it tbh, and these things are all fine tbh because the rest of the more powerful stuff makes up for these units failings.

Draconian77
16-03-2009, 19:02
Redundant thngs;

- Executioners. Cold one knights or Black guard are better.
- Corsairs should be more like 8 pts per model not 10.
- Witch elves are good at killing low T, Low save troops.. aka stuff far cheaper then them and a dying breed in 7th.
- Death hag, suffer from WE + Exs not being takn. Plus being frenzied when EXs are not.

Thats about it tbh, and these things are all fine tbh because the rest of the more powerful stuff makes up for these units failings.

Wolf forgot the Manticore.
These things underperform against any army with moderate shooting due to GW's stance of "It must have scales to benefit from a scaly skin save."
Although I think some models do receive saves for matted fur(the Bear from Kislev?)
Anyway, in summary it needed a 4+ save.

To be honest, bar a few overused items, most of our magic items are jank. (Or at least the entire Enchanted Item list+most of the weapons+at least half of the Talismans+most of the standards...)

Tyranno1
16-03-2009, 21:03
I like the new Dark elves, mainly because I play them :p. Joking aside, I really like the options in the new book. Actually making more units worthwhile was a giant step forward for the army, as I used to never use units like black guard.

Saying this though, I am really hating the powerbuilding. The double hydra combo is ludicrusly powerful, and all core dark riders are annoyingly fast, in fact I have only faced one dark elf army that wasnt a powerbuild and that was a test game.

Edit
16-03-2009, 21:39
I have a love of corsairs, models and fluff wise so I use them as my core (well one unit of DRs) and have had great success with them. I think its a great book overall, some of the items can be comboed for some pretty over the top stuff, but you don't have to take it to compete (unless you have alot of demon players in your area, but they tend to throw the power curve of the local area off by default)

Chainaxe07
16-03-2009, 22:14
This is one of the biggest fallacies you'll see repeated over and over as some sort of queer justificiation for the pendant. How hard is it to stick a lance, great weapon or Crimson Death on him? I didn't realize that a guy with a WS 7, S6, A4 and hatred sucked so much in combat...

So you belong to the (thankfully not so large) pendant avversation society, huh?
Well, to each his own.
To be honest, lance, gweapon or whatever, my characters always (eventually) get the better of pendant/regen dreadlords. Four attacks, wow thats really scary!
Usually they dont even get past chaos armour, let alone my own regeneration. And when you hit back it is just a matter of time, and they go down.
An asf high elf can be as hard to take out, yet i dont see the same hatred for the white dressed weaklings then the black dressed weaklings tend to draw.
Funny.
They are far, far, far, very very far indeed (did i say far?) from "unwoundable", and they fight like poxy halflings (yup, Kaleb Daark quote here!).
Also what's this mania of killing the enemy generals?
Sounds like an awfully lame sport really.
They're not undead, there is no particular benefit in getting rid of that particular pointy ears.
If you are looking for "bad" character combos then look dwarves or lizards.
Maybe demons too.
But, even in these cases, nothing forces you to concentrate your efforts in killing dwarf lords that could slay armies by themselves, or slann that are floating, 5 wounds versions of the same pendant/regen dreadlord you happen to hate so much, just kill the other models!
C'mon, try it: it works!

Chainaxe07
16-03-2009, 22:25
I don't agree with the posters who think our Witch Elves need help. They do not wear armor, they use daggers which are terrible for armor piercing anyway, and they are frenzied. They are agile and can receive a 5+ Save from the Cauldron of Blood. We are Elves for crying out loud, we use light armor and our abilities lie in striking skillfully and quickly. Does everyone want them to be space marines? Harpies also make great screening units, that is their purpose, not to be elite in combat. .


Hmm...of course everyone wants to be a space marine, dont you too?
Harpies can be decent screening units, but are rather costly for their performance capabilities, and i think dark riders are just better for their points.
They do the same thing and do it better.
I dont think witch elves are that bad, just i think you can spend you ponts elsewhere.
As for elves traditionally wearing light armour...well in my opinion warhammer elves are a mix of tolkien's elves and Melniboneans. Both wear tremendously huge, heavy suits of armour...the light armour thing is more a wood elven thing, i guess.
Just my 2 cents.


[QUOTE=AlphaLegionMarine;3379073]
As for everyone complaing about the Pendant of Khaeleth. it's not as over the top as you might think. I watched a Chaos Sorceror on a Disc (lvl 4) use Blood Curdling Roar and land 3 wounds on my lvl 4 Sorceress in one go. I rolled my Save and did not get a single 1, so she was dead. I now think the Heart of Darkness is a better buy.

As for female Sorceresses, what is wrong with women using magic? Sounds like we have some chauvinists here? The Bretts have women casters as well.

Druchii.net is very polite and the admins are great as well.

Yup SOME female sorcerers are coll, and have always been part of most warhammer armies...well namely all except the skaven and the sexually anomalous orcs (i love them, but how do they reproduce? like their 40k counterparts?).
But all DE sorcerers being females is somewhat limited when it comes to the models.
I do remember an extra cool de sorcerer riding a manticore, it was an illustration from J. Blanche for the fourth edition of warhammer. Man i'd love one sorcerer like that!
I am, on the other hand, glad they have female core troops, i remeber a female torso from the warrior sprue and a femle bolt thrower operator.
So ya see? Far from a chauvinist, actually. Just would like some variety.

MercuryLamp
16-03-2009, 22:52
Firstly, I don't agree that Druchii.net is a good place. It's got an absolutely hideous layout and everyone there acts... like a Dark Elf. Actual response I saw to someone's figure in the Painting section: "I hate this miniature".

My issues with the sorceresses is that there's two on foot and one on a cold one. The two on foot don't really look anything alike - like they aren't part of the same army. The one of the cold one is a great model but I really don't see myself wanting a sorceress as part of a heavy cavalry unit all that much.

I've been thinking of getting two of the build-your-own high elf wizard kits and making them into male sorcerors(who are usually outlaw-mercenary types, for those who haven't read the army book). It's really a shame DE didn't get their own build-your-own-hero kits. :/

AlphaLegionMarine
17-03-2009, 03:39
And frankly build your own hero kits are something we need a lot, rather than them pulling out old sculpts and going look at our Collectors Range. Sorry GW, but I just made an Order from AoW for my heroes...

lakissov
17-03-2009, 08:51
1. Harpies are very good for their points. It's the best charge redirector that the DE have, and with most DE units being fragile (actually all units except ASF BG and hydra with the 5+ ward bestowed upon her - and even hydra suffers against any charger with decent SCR), they do need charge redirectors - otherwise, they get charged, and die miserably.
2. Pendant can be annoying for the opponent. And I do agree that pendant on a dragonlord with full mundane armour and enchanted shield is over the top. However, it's not this dragonlord that seems to annoy people so much, but the usual BSB with 2+ AS and pendant (and sword of might, usually). And you know why he annoys those people? Because they are used to their uber-mightly lords tearing to pieces anything that they ever touch, and when something is able to stop them (actually, the pendant BSB won't stop a bloodthirster or a dragonlord usually), they tend to be annoyed. Well, it's not that I cared for such kinf of people anyway. Oh, by the way, it's the same type of people that are freaked out by the ring of hotek - the people that are used to their OTT magic phase blowing up the enemy every game, and who suddenly realize that it doesn't always work. (hint: both items are defensive in nature, and they are not uber per se, but serve to stop things that are uber)
3. Many people see executioners as inferior, but I view them as a good and more reliable substitute to Cold One Knights. They have worse armor, and smaller charge range, but these problems can be solved by proper screening and manoeuvring. However, they have more S6 attacks for the same frontage (due to smaller base), and they don't have to test for stupidity. This is one of the wrongly underused units - because too many people just tend to go for deathstars (too many new players, yes).
4. On the topic of druchii.net: in addition to what I said about tactics, I have seen loads of excellent feedback regarding painting. And I have seen topics with some hideous models posted, where the people posting comments try their best to be sensitive and not to hurt the feelings of the person that paints this way, while at the same time sugesting ways to improve painting. I haven't seen a single topic there with destructive comments. And I browse D.net every day. Probably, MercuryLamp, you just got unlucky, and got a wrong impression of the site.

Chainaxe07
17-03-2009, 09:41
Well, having seen star wars when it was first released in theaters i have a good idea of what a death star is, but can you really field one in warhammer? :eyebrows: I for one would like a death star, why not?
Alas i have never encountered one in any lists. But would'nt it be more of a 40k thing?
Unless i am missing something.
Now,back on topic: dark elves, yes?
Well i still dont think harpies are any good, and dark riders are far better at redirecting charges.
I have to admit, however, that my judgement could be biased because of the horrible models they have (an exception in an otherwise quite decent range of minis).
In my first post i forgot something really important and fun: assassins!
they are basically characters, and while they lack in s, t and a compared to most other races they get the asf rule. This basically means you can have them strike before chargers, a nasty thing for your opponent if you tool him up. Since you hide them in infantry units you can help your humble footsloggers and enhance their survivability.
All of this without even burning up any hero slot.
Cool.

nosferatu1001
17-03-2009, 10:32
Death star is a general term for high point cost v hard to kill unit. One is the blackguard unbreakable ASF unit, another is the shade GW ASF and rxbow army of doom.

lakissov
17-03-2009, 10:52
Yup. I guess, the thing that some Dark Elf players are most hated for is the over-abuse of deathstars (either the shade deathstar with ASF BSB, or the BG deathstar with inverse ward BSB and many ASF BG), "dirtlords" (dragonlord with 3+ or 2+ armor and pendant) and double-hydra lists by novice players (It might of course be fine to take such lists to GT to try and beat some daemons, but using any of these in friendly games is a bit weird).

As a dark elf, I was a bit afraid before the new book that it might get too much power, for two reasons:
- if it gets too much power, it might become much less challenging to play
- if it gets too much power, then the reputation od druchii might get tarnished

The second thing happened, unfortunately. As for the first thing - I don't think that it happened. If one restrains himself from using twin hydras, dragons, pumped-up COK and ASF BG (this last restriction is of course redundant against asur), then the lists are fun to play, and are in no way no-brainers.

Chainaxe07
17-03-2009, 12:02
Hmmm...thanks for the explaination, now i know what a death star is in warhammer.
My fear is that such units/builds are actually just as vulnerable as the original death star was.
Would'nt have been much better for the empire to invest those resources in much more star destroyers/super star destroyers than a small planet that could be blown up by an irritating teen ager high on hormones?
The same principles applies to warhammer. When i see such builds deployed i am usually quite happy, i know the fool concentrated too much resources in a single unit, too much eggs in a single basket.
This does not mean you got the game in the bag, but it is usually a downhill ride for you and an uphill struggle for your opponent.
Will he get back the points he spent on those units?
Will his unit surivie? Maybe (just maybe).
Will this unit win some points? Unlikely.
Will it be worth it?
Really unlikely, unless i stubbornly try to break it at all costs.
If this happens its my fault, not my opponent's.
One question: do u see many hydras fielded?
Round here they are pretty rare (no pun intended!), and BTs are a much preferred choiche for those slots. Quite killy, and you get 2 for a single slot, so facing 4 or 6 is far from unusual.
Yet i seem to understand that hydra heavy lists are common elsewhere, and much scorned.
Is that correct? I wont mind facing one for a change...

Killgore
17-03-2009, 13:11
Im really enjoying playing 'balanced' Dark Elves

had my first few games with them this week

used a 1k list that had abit of everything, spearmen, rxbows, dark riders, cold ones and shades, sorcerer and a master

found the dark elves much more fun then playing vampire counts, the models look great and are easy to paint, the list can be made in many ways and the reckless use of dark magic is great fun!

ashc
17-03-2009, 18:59
Its nice to hear that people like Killgore are actually enjoying playing and using the list. :)

Although I am dissappointed slightly that dragonlords are considered abusive; I used to run one in the old book and really enjoyed it when dragons didn't seem to get used much by any armies, and now its viewed as overpowered :( I was considering rebuilding my old list to get started again.

Ash